2nd Session - 41st Legislature, Private Bills 3, May 18, 2017

TIME – 6 p.m.

LOCATION – Winnipeg, Manitoba

CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Jeff Wharton (Gimli)

VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Brad Michaleski (Dauphin)

ATTENDANCE – 10 QUORUM – 6

Members of the Committee present:

Hon. Mr. Pedersen

Messrs. Curry, Kinew, Lagassé, Michaleski, Reyes, Selinger, Swan, Wharton, Wowchuk

PUBLIC PRESENTERS:

Mr. Matthew Lumsden, private citizen

Mr. Cameron Buchanan, private citizen

Mr. Kelvin Shepherd, Canadian Forces Liaison Council

Mr. Sebastian Snidal, private citizen

Mr. Jonathan Avey, private citizen

MATTERS UNDER CONSIDERATION:

Bill 215–The Civil Service Amendment Act (Employment Preference for Reservists with Active Service)

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Clerk Assistant (Ms. Monique Grenier): Good evening. Will the Standing Committee on Private Bills please come to order.

Before the committee can proceed with the business before it, it must elect a new Chairperson.

Are there any nominations?

Hon. Blaine Pedersen (Minister of Infrastructure): I nominate Mr. Wharton, Gimli.

Clerk Assistant: Mr. Wharton has been nominated. Are there any other nominations?

Hearing no other nominations, Mr. Wharton, will you please take the Chair?

Mr. Chairperson: Our next item of business is the election of a Vice‑Chairperson.

Are there any nominations?

Mr. Bob Lagassé (Dawson Trail): I'd like to nominate Mr. Michaleski.

Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Lagassé–Mr. Michaleski has been nominated.

Are there any nominations?

Hearing–are there any other nominations? Hearing no, Mr. Michaleski is elected Vice‑Chair.

This meeting has been called–consider the following bill: Bill 215, The Civil Service Amendment Act.

Would like to inform all in attendance of the provisions in our rules regarding the hours of adjournment of the standing committee meeting. To be considered, a bill must not sit past midnight to hear public presentations or to consider clause by clause of the bill except by unanimous consent of the committee.

We have a small number of presenters registered to speak tonight, as noted on the list of presenters before you.

Before we proceed with the presentations, we do have a number of other items and points of information to consider. First of all, if there are anyone else in the audience who would like to make a presentation this evening, please register with the staff at the entrance of the room. Also, for the information of all presenters, while written versions of presentations are not required, if you are going to accompany your presentation with written material, we ask that you provide 20 copies. If you need help with photocopying, please speak with our staff.

As well, in accordance with the rules, a time limit of 10 minutes has been allotted for presentations with another five minutes allowed for questions from the committee members. If a presenter is not in attendance when their name is called, they will be dropped to the bottom of the list. If a presenter is not in attendance, then their name will be called a second time, they will be moved from the present list.

Prior to proceeding with the presentation, I would like to advise members of the public regarding the process of the speaking in the committee. The proceedings of our meetings are recorded in order to provide verbatim transcript. Each time someone wishes to speak, whether it be to an MLA or to a presenter, it first have–to say their first name. This is a signal for the Hansard recorder to turn the mics on and off.

Thank you for your patience, we will now proceed with public presentations.

Bill 215–The Civil Service Amendment Act
(Employment Preference for Reservists with Active Service)

Mr. Chairperson: I'd like to call Matthew Lumsden.

Mr. Lumsden, do you have any written material for distribution to the committee?

Mr. Matthew Lumsden (Private Citizen): Yes, Sir. I do. Yes, I do have material.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, just provide it to the staff there, please. Thank you.

And go ahead with your presentation. Please proceed.

Mr. Lumsden: Good evening, honourable members. Thank you for having me here as a private citizen to talk about this important bill.

My name is warrant officer, retired, Matt Lumsden. By way of background, it was my privilege to serve with the Canadian Forces Army Reserve for approximately 22 years with the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada. My last position was as company sergeant major for Headquarters Company, with the Winnipeg Infantry Tactical Group, out of Minto Armoury. I am also honoured to serve the community as a Winnipeg police officer with approximately 16 years of service.

In addition to a few hundred exercises and courses that I attended over the years, I was fortunate to participate in some operations and overseas deployments with the forces–one of those being operation affirmative alert, in Norway–1992; a couple of Canada Remembers tours over the years; 1995, victory, in Europe; and the 60th anniversary of the Dieppe Raid; and I was very, very fortunate to be able to participate in Operation Athena, with Task Force 01-08, Afghanistan–2008, with NATO.

Now my goal this evening is to describe three things: the benefits of preferential hiring of reserve veterans; the second thing is the benefits that those members bring back to the military; and just a few final words.

So, to begin, with the benefits of preferential hiring of reserve veterans: What makes a reserve veteran a good employee? To be a reserve veteran a member must, through their training and performance, have demonstrated personal discipline, time management, attention to detail, focus, mental and physical strength, motivation and respect for the chain of command. They're taught and exposed to a wealth of concepts, such as ethics, citizenship, teamwork, sacrifice, accountability and personal integrity, and, of course, I forgot to mention multitasking. By virtue of being a reservist, your whole life is pretty much a multitasking exercise.

The most important skill, however, and what I would like to highlight to the committee today, is that these people bring leadership. As everyone here is aware, the need for high-quality leadership in public service can never be overstated. From the first training experiences a reserve veteran receives in the military, the member is encouraged to develop and practise their leadership abilities.

To be promoted even to the most junior leadership ranks, a reserve soldier must pass what I believe to be one of the world's best leadership programs. Reserve leadership candidates must demonstrate an understanding of the principles of leadership, instruction and administration; they must be able to demonstrate their ability to teach, coach, mentor, plan and organize and lead in the field under stressful conditions. They are highly capable, experienced and proven people.

Examples of reserve veterans and former reserve members that may not necessarily qualify as veterans under this consideration–in this discussion that I would like to talk about who have contributed to their careers are as follows–and I'll just give a few examples. I couldn't possibly list all the examples here, so I'll just touch on a few with my own career.

I'd like to highlight an example of reserve veteran who utilized his leadership experience to become a divisional manager and inspector with the Winnipeg police. He's been in–tasked with several high profile tasks, such as the Queen's visit, command of the crowd management unit, and the Canada Summer Games file–in addition to being a divisional inspector.

Another example is a former reservist who used his leadership experience to completely revolutionize our entire use-of-force program from the ground up, making ours one of the best programs in Canada.

Another example of a reservist applying his skills is a reservist who used his initiative to design and modernize our Winnipeg Police Service badges, improving professional image and public trust. I remember pulling mine one out–my badge out once and being asked if it was real, about 15 years ago, anyway. This member also took the initiative to design and implement the entire–an entire equipment management system for our division.

* (18:10)

And, finally, I'd like to highlight the example of a particular reservist who we all know, for my friends and I that have served in the reserves, who, by his exceptional work ethic and high standard of personal conduct, has become the go-to resource for our entire division in the area of judicial authorizations and complex drug investigations.

So moving on, topic No. 2 is the benefits that those members bring back to the military. So there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Canadian Forces regular units who form the core of our task forces and battle groups benefit from the support of the reserves.

In Afghanistan, the members of our platoon had a chance to meet with the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Hillier. And after shaking his–our hands, he said there is no way we could have done this without the reserves. There are hundreds who made up the part of our task force serving in nearly every different role as our regular force counterparts.

Now, the physical presence of a reserve soldier filling the role occupied normally by a regular force member is just the start. Reserve soldiers bring with them unique and diverse perspectives from their personal lives and civilian careers with them. And, when it comes to military exercises and operations, you only have your fellow soldiers to rely on. And one of a soldier's greatest strengths is their ability to be a team player. However, their ability to think independently and improvise is equally as important.

And I'd just like to highlight a few examples of that.

So, during our experience in Task Force 0108, I'd like to highlight–and again, there's–there are so many examples I couldn't possibly highlight them all in the 10 minutes that I have left–four minutes. The reservist who, by virtue of being a mechanic–correction, the reservist who, by virtue of being a carpenter, was able to build and reinforce our living quarters during pre-deployment training.

Another reservist who, by virtue of being a mechanic, was able to keep the air conditioning units in our armoured vehicles working, keeping the temperature from the 60s down to about the 40s, and who regularly assisted the service battalion members with advice on general repairs between missions.

Another example is a reservist, he uses personal knowledge to assist our regular-force comrades in retrieving an expensive tank engine that had fallen off a flatbed in the middle of Kandahar City. His contribution, by virtue of his personal knowledge from a civilian career, allowed us to move quickly before potentially getting surrounded in the middle of Kandahar City.

And, finally, just from my own personal experience, I can advise that, after arriving in theatre and getting out into the field, I noticed that although our members were provided with rules of engagement to govern use of force, there was no further training or discussion for our people when it came to breaking down the concepts of using force. And this is one area where I personally was able to bring some experience from my civilian career, and I believe that I was successful in helping our members achieve a greater understanding of how to properly assess a threat, and the responsibilities and consequences of using force.

So what does it all mean?

These are my final thoughts. It was said, and has been said many times over the years, that the reserves are the bridge between the military and the community. As a reserve veteran matures over time and progresses in their military and civilian careers, there is a synergy which if properly harnessed, can make for an excellent employee with high leadership potential. However, it's not all on the employer. Being a reserve veteran while keeping a successful civilian career requires great sacrifice from the members and their families–as my wife will tell you.

Although not every reserve veteran obtains the same level of success or personal development as others, they all carry the burden of representing the citizen soldiers of Canada. In other words, it wasn't enough that they swore an oath to Canada and put the uniform on, it was ingrained in them that they must constantly strive to make themselves an example to others, especially in their civilian careers. And I remember one particular young soldier named Nic Curry, who I am proud to acknowledge as one of these examples.

Almost there, okay. Being a reserve–reservist has always made me feel like a superhero with a secret identity. If someone found out that I served in the military part-time, I wanted that person to think that makes sense, and I believe that the vast majority of reservists and reserve veterans are inspired to bring their very best to their civilian employer every day.

So this is my final statement: It is my belief that any employer who hires a reserve veteran will reap the benefits of that decision over time, especially when it comes to the leadership potential of those people. The civil service, with its standards of ethical practice and professional conduct in service to the public, is perfectly stationed to realize the benefits of the preferential hiring of reserve veterans.

Thank you, honourable members, for your time.

Mr. Chairperson: Well, thank you, Mr. Lumsden, for your presentation.

Do the members of the committee have any questions for the presenter?

Mr. Nic Curry (Kildonan): Thank you, Mr. Lumsden.

Just like you may not have enough time to explain the many roles and ways the reservists enhance operations, I don't have five minutes to explain how much your addition, both to your civilian life and reserve life, has improved the people around you, and I want to again thank you so much for presenting here on your experience, your decades of time serving your community.

Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): Yes, Mr. Lumsden, I want to thank you on behalf of the NDP caucus for your service both in the reserves and also, of course, with the police service.

You are the first speaker. Spoiler alert: we will be supporting this bill, although we may have a couple of questions and some other ideas. I just wanted to thank you for coming down and sharing your very interesting experience with our committee tonight.

Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions from the committee?

Well thank you, Mr. Lumsden, for your presentation.

I'd now like to call Mr. Cameron Buchanan.

Mr. Buchanan, do you have any written material for the committee?

Mr. Cameron Buchanan (Private Citizen): I do not.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay. Thank you. Please proceed with the presentation.

Mr. Buchanan: Good evening, distinguished committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you tonight in support of Bill 215.

Just a few words about myself–I would like to look at this from a more personal perspective. It's very difficult to add to Mr. Lumsden's comments tonight. I hope to build on those, but I would like to look at this from a slightly different perspective as an employee and as an employer, and I would like to just speak a little bit about that.

A little bit about my background: I've served 27 years in the Regular Forces. I then left the Regular Forces when I moved to Manitoba and spent the next 13 years as the regional director with Public Safety Canada, doing emergency management. As Mr. Selinger might remember, we had a few tense moments in 2011, 2014, when the military was brought in, and we worked very closely during those–what seemed like ages, but ended up being months.

I have also, concurrently, with my civilian employment with Public Safety Canada, I was a reservist and also served with the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada, and then went on to the 38 Brigade headquarters which is the Manitoba-based headquarters for reservists in the west up to the Alberta border.

In the course of my transition from the Regular Force to civilian life, I undersold myself. And I soon discovered that with the number of experiences that had been highlighted by Mr. Lumsden, I was able to translate a lot of the things that I had done in the military to very effective leadership, administrative, HR skills and speaking skills in civilian life. And I found that in so doing, that the military does have a huge amount of training that we put in. If we aren't on training, we are training and–as trainers–and we're always looking to improve individually and collectively.

In the course of my duties with Public Safety Canada, I often had to do a lot of negotiation skills, all of which I learned in the military, particularly in the early days of opening up Sarajevo in 1992 when we were working with the Serbs and Croats. While that was an extreme situation, it was the lessons that I learned from that kind of thing that allowed me to hone negotiation skills.

In the course of my duties with Public Safety Canada as an employer, we hired a number of reservists and ex-Regular Force people because as you may know, the federal government does have a bill that allows for us to hire military folks and preference, and we have never been disappointed. We have found that these folks come in well-motivated, physically fit, disciplined–now, when I say disciplined, I mean focused, very focused on their job. They have good interact–interpersonal skills. They're able to work very independently and also as part of a team.

We have found, for example, particularly since the post-9/11–or the World Trade Center attack, that the type of training that we have done in the military has been very focused on civil military operations. And so a lot of these folks have had that kind of training, and they come in understanding how things work, understanding how government works, understanding how the military fits in with government, and how the–how they can co-operate together.

* (18:20)

We've found a lot of the folks that we've hired were able to use very good, I would call them, arbitrator skills. We have done a lot of training in the military on de-escalation and those are directly translatable into that kind of activity.

I found it surprisingly–perhaps not surprisingly, but–the military is also, in a sense, a part of government. And there is, quite frankly, a lot of red tape and these folks come in very knowledgeable in HR regulations, financial regulations, as well on the personal side, particularly for folks like Mr. Lumsden and others that are in a more senior position of leading soldiers, personal things like helping people do budgets, helping people to write resumes. All of those things have come into very effective use in their civilian lives when they've had an opportunity.

So in summary: Why this bill? I think it's really important that we offer the reservists an opportunity, particularly with the amount of concentrated training that they do, the amount of dedication that they have, and the skill sets that they would bring to almost every government field.

Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Buchanan, for your presentation.

Do members of the committee have questions for the presenter?

Mr. Curry: I kind of want to thank you, Mr. Buchanan, or as I once called you, Colonel, and I think your passion for both military and public life is well known and your work that you've done is incredible, especially in disaster relief, but also in terms of volunteerism around our community.

And again, we don't have time to thank you for that, but thank you for giving the perspective of the employment side. I appreciate it.

Mr. Greg Selinger (St. Boniface): Thank you, Mr. Buchanan, and you did make a very positive contribution for sure in those '11 and '14 events, and the military skills helped immensely keeping Manitobans safe. So thank you for your service and transferring those skills over.

Mr. Chairperson: Any other further questions from the committee? Thank you, Mr. Buchanan.

I'll now call Mr. Kelvin Shepherd.

Mr. Shepherd, do you have any written material to distribute?

Mr. Kelvin Shepherd (Canadian Forces Liaison Council): I do.

Mr. Chairperson: Great, super. Thank you.

Mr. Shepherd: Well, good evening. Thank you–

Mr. Chairperson: Sorry. Please proceed with your presentation.

Mr. Shepherd: Thank you.

Good evening, thank you for the opportunity to present to this committee of the Manitoba Legislature. My name is Kelvin Shepherd. I'm here in my role as Chair of the Canadian Forces Liaison Council for Manitoba and Northwest Ontario to speak in support of the amendments proposed in Bill 215, The Civil Service Amendment Act.

The Canadian Forces Liaison Council–in short, the CFLC–is a Canada-wide volunteer group of civilian business and educational leaders. The CFLC is mandated by the Department of National Defence to work with senior leaders in business, educational, and community organizations to promote the benefits of reserve force training and experience to employers.

The CFLC also supports individual reservists as well as reserve units in matters related to employer support.

The Canadian Forces primary reserve is the largest component of the reserves that CFLC works with, but we also support other reserve components such as the Canadian Rangers and the Cadet Organization, Administration and Training Service, or COATS, as it's known.

As you may know, the primary reserve consists of sailors, soldiers, and air force personnel who have enrolled for service other than continuous full-time military service. Although primarily part-time in nature, they train to the same level as–and are largely interchangeable with–their full-time regular force counterparts.

Canada has about 26,000 primary reservists out of a total uniform force of about 96,500, and I believe it would be difficult to overstate the importance of the reserves in helping the Canadian Forces mount and sustain operations, especially during periods of heightened operational tempo. Afghanistan may be the most well-known recent experience, where army reservists made up 25 per cent of the force deployed operationally during the peak fighting in that campaign.

Reservists are regularly called upon to deploy both domestically and internationally in support of a wide range of activities, including combat, peace keeping, training, or humanitarian relief operations.

At CFLC, one of our main roles is working with civilian organizations–businesses, educational institutions, as well as government organizations to support reservists who are their employees. When a civilian organization employs and supports a reservist, they are directly supporting Canada when we are called on to deploy our Forces.

In Canada, the federal government, as well as all provinces and territories, have established military job protection legislation, supporting reservists who require time off from their regular employment to train or deploy operationally. Manitoba has good basic military job protection legislation in place, and I wanted to take this opportunity to highlight that it is of great value to reservists, and it's something that CFLC works to inform and educate both reservists and employers about.

Now, we understand that Bill 215 is a relatively simple amendment to existing legislation, but it supports an important principle. As I have outlined, reservists are a valuable resource within the Canadian Armed Forces and are often called upon to play an important role in supporting our national interest. It's only proper that reservists having active service be accorded a similar status as regular Forces members in terms of civil–Manitoba civil service employment opportunities.

Ensuring that all veterans, including veterans who continue to serve their country as a member of the reserves, receive the same preferential treatment when attempting to find employment in Manitoba's civil service is something that would support reservists and recognize the important role they play contributing to Canada's security.

The Manitoba civil service is an important employer of reservists, and I believe it's recognized as having human resource policies that are supportive of reservists who are employed in the civil service.

Because Manitoba is an important employer of reservists, the CFLC believes that anything that enhances a reservist's ability to gain employment within the civil service will ultimately enhance the Canadian Forces' ability to recruit and retain qualified reservists in Manitoba. It will also help the civil service attract reservists as employees, and we strongly believe that because of their training and military experience, that reservists generally make excellent employees.

In closing, I would also point out that this amendment, while it is a good step, is not breaking totally new ground in Canada. The federal government and some other provinces–for example, New Brunswick–provide for preferential hiring of veterans and include reservists within that definition. And, in fact, some other jurisdictions have used a less restrictive definition of veteran in terms of their preferential hiring legislation.

The definition of veteran in New Brunswick, for example, is established under section 10 of The New Brunswick Civil Service Act, as being: a "veteran means a Canadian citizen who has rendered military service for at least three continuous years as a member of (i) the regular force and has been honourably released, or (ii) the primary reserve, and, if no longer serving, has been honourably released."

The Manitoba legislation with the proposed amendment is more restrictive, in that it requires service during a period where Canada is in a state of war or deployment on qualified operations outside of Canada. However, we recognize that Bill 215 is a good initial step, to add reservists to the existing legislation and, perhaps, at some point in the future, the overall legislation may be modernized to recognize all regular force and reservists who have served honourably as being eligible for preferential hiring into the Manitoba civil service.

Closing, based on the information I have presented this evening, I advise the committee that the CFLC regional council for Manitoba and Northwestern Ontario supports the proposed amendment as outlined in Bill 215.

On behalf of the CFLC and my regional council members from Manitoba, one of whom, Mr. Barry Rempel is supporting me here tonight in the gallery, I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak to this important legislation. Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Shepherd, for your presentation.

Mr. Curry: Thank you, again, Mr. Shepherd, for your presentation. I want to, on behalf of the committee, thank your efforts with the CFLC and all members of the Canadian Forces Liaison Council, in the work that you do to help promote reservists being hired into many professions. And I hope that you will have more continued work with all members of the Legislature as we find more ways that we can enhance legislation, as you referenced, but also ways that we can promote hiring of reservists. And I thank you for your work.

* (18:30)

Mr. Swan: Mr. Shepherd, thank you for coming down.

I hope this committee meeting is more relaxed than the last time you and I were sitting in committee for a couple of hours. I do want to thank you, on behalf of our caucus, for coming out and presenting.

I didn't know that you had this additional role as chair of the Canadian Forces Liaison Council, and I think it's important that business leaders do step up to make sure their voices are known. This bill, of course, speaks with the civil service, but I think we all agree that there are other benefits for private companies, for Crown corporations, other organizations, from hiring reservists for the reasons we've heard from some of the other presenters tonight.

So thank you very much for being here.

Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions from the committee?

Thank you, Mr. Shepherd, for your presentation.

I'll now call Sebastian Snidal.

Mr. Snidal, do you have any written material for distribution?

Mr. Sebastian Snidal (Private Citizen): No, I do not, Sir.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, thank you. Please go ahead with your presentation.

Mr. Snidal: Good evening. My name is Sergeant Sebastian Snidal. I am here speaking as a private citizen.

I was asked if I would be willing to give a short testimonial about my past service with the military and what impact this amendment to the criteria for preferential hiring for veterans would have going forward and why it would be beneficial for all parties involved.

I've been a primary reservist since January 2004 and continue to serve in that capacity at the rank of sergeant. Over my career, I've held various positions both within and outside of my trade as an infantry soldier. In 2011, I volunteered to be deployed to Afghanistan as a master corporal where I worked within the Canadian headquarters compound as part of the visit cell, escorting VIPs and VVIPs around the area.

My duties as a vis driver went well beyond simply driving and guarding generals, ambassadors and many members of Parliament when they came to the area. They also included helping the visits officer in planning the visitor's entire trip before–including meals, accommodations, primary and alternate transport routes, setting up meetings for the individual and arranging extra protection as needed, along with any other requests they had for their visit.

As anyone who is planning anything can attest, once a visit was under way, it never went exactly to plan. This meant that we were always required to make–take the initiative and think on our feet, rearranging things as needed and communicating rapidly with both Canadian and our allies on the ground.

How does this pertain to the bill this committee is assembled to review? The bill makes it so that not only myself but others who have served Canada overseas in operations and have obtained a wealth of experience from those trying times will be afforded preferential hiring alongside our released brethren. It means that the hiring board will need to review a reservist's resumé or CV rather than risk it being eliminated in a screening process, that has no idea what a section commander is or does not understand that a military position title very rarely, if ever, comes to sufficiently–under–encompassing the duties and responsibilities of those positions.

If I had told you that I was a driver overseas, it would've likely elicited images of me driving an army vehicle around a base. It does not inherently evoke thoughts of me balancing my workload to complete all my primary tasks as a driver while also aiding and running in clearance ranges for multiple weapon systems, providing additional training to those who are less confident or familiar with their assigned weapons, as well as building, maintaining, and managing permissions for the visit cell's electronic data storage site. Yet those were just some of my secondary tasks. Despite being secondary, however, they were–all had firm deadlines and all were not allowed to fail because my secondary task was what was upholding someone else's primary.

Could I receive preferential hiring as a veteran if I–presently if I released? My understanding is yes, but it would require me to be released. So to receive this benefit I would need to currently end my career prematurely by over two decades. That'd be two decades where I could've otherwise been able to continue serving as a reservist, in that time receiving more and more advanced leadership and skills training, which would've been of benefit not only to my military career, but also immediately transfer over to the benefit of my civilian employer.

Two decades, rather than imparting my experience to the next generation of Canada's guardians, I would instead take my corporate knowledge of the job and depart, leaving my inevitable replacement to learn the hard way what I could've otherwise mentored them on. But I left because I required the preferential hiring in a competitive job market.

Approving this amendment will alleviate the need for a reservist with a wealth of experience to be forced to make that choice in the future. The benefits are not only to reservists who wish to continue to serve, however. I would argue that this amendment is also good for the public interest.

In passing this bill, you will not only recognize more completely the service of military members with active service, but you will also entice those with that experience to apply for these jobs. In doing so, you'll be attracting some of the hardest working, mission‑orientated and dedicated individuals within our society, people who, unwilling to wait for their name to be called, volunteer. They are trained and experienced leaders who will take any task you give them and not only see the task but also the implied tasks associated, as well as the intent behind the task, so they will not complete a task if it no longer fulfills the intent. They will come back to you and explain to you why the task needs to be changed. I can tell you as a lifelong citizen of Manitoba that those are the type of people that I want working on my behalf.

Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson: Well, thank you, Mr. Snidal, for your presentation.

Mr. Curry: I want to thank you again, Mr. Snidal, for coming to present. I know that your years–you mentioned joining in 2004–reminds me of when I joined and it felt like a very long, long time ago, and I know that your continued service is going to be a benefit, both to your regiment and also your community. And I thank you so much for expressing some of your experience as a veteran and a reservist. Thank you.

Mr. Swan: Thank you for coming down and giving us your perspective tonight. I do have friends who served in the reserves in Afghanistan, so I think maybe I understand a little bit about what you were doing there.

You're speaking in favour of the bill, but I–from–I hear you saying is that just passing the bill may not be enough and that there may have to be some education within the Civil Service Commission to fully understand the credentials that somebody who has served in the reserves is putting forward. That can't really be part of the discussion tonight, but is that something you would like the sponsoring member and maybe all of us as MLAs to put forward to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission?

Mr. Snidal: I think that education in one form or another is a good idea on the matter. The exact form I'm not going to speculate on too much as it's not my avenue of expertise. However, I do believe that this bill in its current state will inherently force those people in the HR department to look more actively at what each of those qualifications mean. So some of the education may come just naturally; whether there's formalized training required as well, I would leave that to the honourable members to discuss.

Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions from the committee?

Thank you very much, Mr. Snidal.

I'll now call Jonathan Avey.

Mr. Avey, do you have any material–written material to distribution?

Mr. Jonathan Avey (Private Citizen): I do not, Sir.

Mr. Chairperson: Okay, thank you. Please go ahead with your presentation.

Mr. Avey: Good evening. I'd like to thank you, first and foremost, for allowing me to address you tonight. My presentation will be more personal in nature and through it I would like to illustrate to you why it is that I feel veterans with reserve experience bring–are such a positive aspect of the civil service.

I count myself privileged to be able to say that I have served in the Canadian Armed Forces for a little over 13 and a half years. I joined the regular force shortly after high school. I was 18 years old and I transferred to the reserves some time later. I can tell you with absolutely no hesitation that if there was an 18‑year‑old version of me here today, there would bear little resemblance to the person addressing you, and I cannot state strongly enough how much the Canadian Armed Forces has given to me over the years.

I came here to Winnipeg in 2013 to pursue a second career. I was accepted to law school at the University of Manitoba. At that time, I had to consider whether I was going to release from the Armed Forces or continue. As Mr. Lumsden touched on in his presentation earlier, being a reservist when you have a full‑time job or you're a full‑time student can be somewhat demanding on your time. I elected to remain in the Canadian Armed Forces for a number of reasons and I can say wholeheartedly I'm very glad that I did.

* (18:40)

On my first day of law school we did something that's very common in most educational programs. Everybody in the program introduced themselves, gave a little background, where they were coming from, and anecdotally, my estimate is that between one quarter and one half of that class had graduate degrees. For your information, I had less than one year's worth of university credits under my belt. I had no idea what I was going to do, and my first thought was, I do not belong in this environment.

However, there are certain things that I learned from my time in the Canadian Forces that greatly assisted me and, once again, I can say without hesitation, there is no way that I would have gotten through that program without being in the Armed Forces.

The Canadian Forces teaches members a number of intangible skills. You're taught organization, self‑discipline, a strong work ethic, communication skills, time management and leadership. But it's more than that. Being in the Canadian Forces instills a culture and an ethos. It's a culture of service, a culture of self-sacrifice, a culture of putting your job and your teammates above yourself. Those characteristics and that culture is not only ingrained into our profession as service members, but it's something that becomes a part of who you are.

I have been fortunate enough, after my schooling, to be hired on to what I consider to be my dream job. I now work in the civil service with Manitoba Justice. It's an incredible office. I work with excellent people, and I believe, based on the limited experience I've had with the remainder of the civil service, there are excellent people in every department of this government.

That said, I would not be where I am today without what my–without the experiences that I gained in the Armed Forces. And, furthermore, I have been privileged in the sense that I have had experiences and opportunities that not every Forces member will have. Not everyone who comes out of the Canadian Forces, whether it's from the regular force or the reserves, is going to have had the experiences I have had–that I have had. They will not have the opportunities in transitioning to a civilian role.

And, when you have a regular force member that is looking to pursue a second career and they're faced with a decision of, do I release completely from the Armed Forces or do I stay in, do I stay in part‑time and continue to impart my knowledge on reservists and continue to contribute to Canada, we want those people to remain. We need them in the reserves because their experience is invaluable, and what they bring to the table in terms of knowledge is, frankly, difficult to quantify.

But we also want those people to be able to succeed in their civilian careers, and what they bring to their civilian careers from the Armed Forces is all the characteristics that I mentioned earlier. The civil service needs each of them. It can only benefit the service and, by extension, our communities.

Passing this legislation accomplishes, in my view, three important objectives. First, it acknowledges the service and the hardships that are faced by service members who deploy and choose to remain in service after they deploy. Second, it assists veteran reserve members in gaining meaningful employment in an area that allows them to continue serving their community, which is an attitude that I have experienced extensively throughout my time in the reserves. Reservists want to continue serving; they want to contribute. Third, it will strengthen the public service departments by employing people with valuable skills and the personal characteristics that I've mentioned that have been fostered by their time in the Canadian Armed Forces.

This bill is important. It is a relatively minor change to existing legislation, but it has a significant impact, not only on reservists but on the civil service. I see no downside to this bill, and, accordingly, I must strongly encourage you to pass this at the earliest opportunity.

I'm open to any questions that you may have.

Mr. Chairperson: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Avey, for your presentation.

Mr. Curry: I did want to ask a question. Thank you, again, Mr. Avey, so much, not just for your career but also your commitment to your community by both service in the military and service now in the provincial civil service. And I hope many reservist veterans will soon join you, and, hopefully, many of them will be facilitated through this legislation.

I want you to touch on–and you kind of briefly went over the sort of retention, as I want to call it–but can you touch on how, say, the benefits of retaining people both in the civil service and the reserves who are linked if they are reservists and a civil servant–how they can enhance both workplaces by staying in both those professions?

Mr. Avey: Yes, thank you for the question.

When I consider what is valuable in a workplace, the immediate things that come to mind to me are, obviously, a knowledge of the job that you have to do. But, ultimately, everybody that does a job is an individual person with individual characteristics. Now, whether you are in the Civil Service or in the Canadian Armed Forces, the characteristics that I mentioned earlier of being organized, being self-disciplined, having a strong work ethic, being able to communicate effectively, being able to manage your time, displaying leadership, all of these characteristics apply equally within the Canadian Armed Forces and in the–a civil service workplace.

The Canadian Armed Forces fosters those skills and those characteristics. It builds them. You cannot help but learn those in the Armed Forces. It is certainly true that some people come upon some or all of those characteristics naturally; they may develop them more on their own. But I think it's somewhat trite to say that you can't build a strong enough work ethic, you can't be enough of a leader, you can't be too organized, although I suppose there are extremes.

At the end of the day, somebody who displays these characteristics will do their job better. They will be able to interact with their professional colleagues better and, ultimately, will turn into a more effective civil servant.

Mr. Lumsden indicated that primary reserve soldiers bring with them, to the military, unique perspectives from their civilian life. Let me assure you that goes both ways; everything you learn in the Forces can be applied to your civilian job.

Mr. Swan: Yes, Mr. Avey, thank you for presenting to us tonight.

If you came here to start your law school in the fall of 2013, I'm guessing you must be being called to the bar next month, and, on behalf of all of us, we want to wish you all the best in your call to the bar.

Of course, I trained in law and learned that foreign language. I've now had the chance to learn a little bit about the foreign language that is the military. You're doing it the other way around, which is also acceptable. I just really want to thank you for your comments on the goal of trying to attract and retain people to serve in the reserves. I think that is an important part of the bill, and also your comments on how time in the reserves can lead to a successful career is very helpful.

So we wish you all the best in your career going forward.

Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions from the committee?

Thank you, Mr. Avey, for your presentation.

Okay, that concludes the list of presenters I have before me.

Are there any other persons in attendance who wish to make a presentation this evening? Seeing none, that concludes public presentation.

* * *

Mr. Chairperson: During the consideration of a bill, the preamble, the enacting clause and the title are postponed until all other clauses have been considered in their proper order.

Will–we will now proceed with Bill 215.

Does the bill sponsor, the honourable member from Kildonan, have any opening statement?

Mr. Curry: Yes, I do.

Mr. Chairperson: Please proceed.

Mr. Curry: I thank the members of the public who are here to witness proceedings or present on this bill.

This bill will amend outdated legislation, but it does not take into account the vital role that reservists perform on operation outside of Canada. Our nation has a long and honoured history of citizen militias and non-permanent military organizations defending Canada and our interests around the world.

Some reserve regiments have histories and legacies that extend well over the 150 years of confederation that is celebrated this year and will continue to influence how we understand service in our country and communities.

This bill will remove any ambiguity. A member of the primary reserve can apply for veterans' preference in the provincial civil service. Many people are often grateful and respectful to our men and women in uniforms, but some people, including some employers, are not appreciative of the roles that reservists have in our communities.

When on domestic emergencies, especially as recently as 2011 as was mentioned before, where I had the honour of serving on the riverbanks that were spilling over and flooding our homes, reservists and reservists veterans are there to answer the call.

* (18:50)

Reservist veterans will work Tuesday nights, weekends. They give up their summer for exercises. They give up their Christmas breaks for training. They give up time that could be spent with families all in service to their country. This dual sacrifice of having a full-time career and spending your off‑hours training and developing your skills as a soldier is a sacrifice sometimes people do not know much about.

This legislation will have lasting impact on veterans, and in treating all veterans–whether you're a regular force who have left the military or have been regular force or reservist and then continue to serve in the reserves–will all be treated the same for the hiring of the provincial civil service–into the provincial civil service.

Reservist veterans are members of society who are bedrock of the community. They take vacation leave to attend career progression. They open small businesses. They're the backbone of our economy. They're volunteers who join the military and then continue their volunteerism on their time off in shelters, food banks and charitable organizations. They are teachers, police officers, health-care workers, entrepreneurs, to say a few. And, most importantly, there are–they are our neighbours.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the member.

Does any other member wish to make an opening statement on Bill 215?

Mr. Swan: As the military affairs critic, I'm just going to put a few words on the record.

Again, we do support this bill. I feel as though I'm underdressed tonight, not wearing my regimental tie. I serve on the Regimental Senate of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles that trains out of Minto Armouries. I heard the unmistakable sounds of the Rifles band playing just the other night. I appreciate the importance of trying to attract people into life in the reserves–to retain people, but also to make sure that reservists have the greatest opportunity to pursue careers while they remain in the reserves and, also, once they've decided that their reserve career is over.

I think it builds on other steps that were taken in the past to make life easier for those who serve our province and our country, and we do support this bill. And we will support more good legislation to make life easier for people who serve.

So we are quite prepared to move ahead. My colleague, Mr. Kinew, has some ideas on how the bill could be made even a bit better that we will get to in just a minute.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the member.

Are there any other members? No?

Clause 1–pass.

Shall clause 2 pass?

Some Honourable Members: Pass.

An Honourable Member: No.

Mr. Wab Kinew (Fort Rouge): I'd like to move an amendment to this.

I move

THAT Clause 2 of the Bill be amended by striking out "Canadian Forces" and substituting "Canadian Forces or a reserve component of an ally of Her Majesty".

Motion presented.

Mr. Chairperson: The amendment is in order. The floor is open for questions.

Mr. Kinew: So I just want to reiterate that we're in support of the private member's bill here, and I'd just like to take a few minutes to explain the rationale behind this. And then, also, to offer to take a recess if necessary if members want to confer.

Essentially, you know, it's been the experience in my family–and the families of many other First Nations people–to have relatives who serve on both sides of the border–in both the Canadian military and in the American military. Some members may not be aware, but First Nations people in Canada are also entitled to a green card or to be able to get a path to citizenship in America. And, as a result, there has been a long tradition of service amongst Canadian First Nations people crossing the border and also serving in the American Armed Forces.

I have a very good friend–actually, two of them, twin brothers who grew up on the Sandy Bay First Nation right here in Manitoba–I believe in the constituency of Agassiz. And, following 9/11, they were so moved by the attacks on the World Trade Center that they enlisted in the United States Marine Corps. And one of them was deployed overseas, and he, you know, served in a few of the missions in, I believe, Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, and also in the global war on terror. And this guy came back to Winnipeg and he went and studied at the University of Winnipeg using his GI Bill from the States. And I believe he's set to graduate this year. I believe that the Deputy Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade is also a First Nations man from Manitoba who, you know, served in the American forces, came back, made his career here. And my late Uncle Norbert was also, you know, a veteran of the Canadian Forces and who also served in the American forces.

So, recognizing that there are, you know, many people in our country who may also choose to serve for our ally–one of our closest allies, the United States of America, I only seek to broaden this out for the potentiality where we may have somebody who is enlisted in one of the seven reserve branches of the American armed forces, that they'd be entitled to the same sort of consideration, and so that's why I'm bringing this here again tonight.

Tremendous respect for everybody who's spoken, tremendous respect for, you know, the member who's brought this bill forward and definitely agree with the principles behind it, but did think that perhaps we might broaden it out to recognize both those who are in the Canadian Forces reserves but also those who are in the reserves of one of our allies, namely, the United States.

Mr. Swan: Mr. Chairperson, I support the motion and, as my colleague Mr. Kinew said, if it was the wish of Mr. Curry to have a brief recess for him to discuss this with his colleagues, I think he would find us inclined to agree to that. We don't want to put him on the spot; we'd like him to be able to get the advice of his colleagues and see if we can agree on the amendment tonight.

Mr. Chairperson: Would the committee be in agreement for recess?

Hon. Blaine Pedersen (Minister of Infrastructure): Just a question through you, Mr. Chair, to the member. In terms of your proposed amendment here and it's of an ally of Her Majesty, my–and perhaps someone can clear this up for me, but an ally, and let's say it's from the United States or from a non‑British Commonwealth country, you don't automatically become able to get employment within the civil service unless you have like–the member mentioned a green card in the United States. I don't know what our employment qualifications are here, but, not being a Canadian citizen, are you eligible to be employed in the civil service?

Mr. Kinew: I think I can address both points that the minister raises.

The first is that the language around the ally of Her Majesty is taken from the main bill itself, right, because you are entitled to employment preference if you're a veteran of an ally of Her Majesty, so that's where that portion of that comes from, and then so–the second point I'd like to make is–perhaps I didn't enunciate this as clearly as possible, first time around. There are many First Nations people who can serve in the American forces without renouncing their Canadian citizenship. They're entitled to be at the same time Canadian citizens and members of the American armed forces. So, again, this is really towards creating a space to recognize the service of somebody like that who is at the same time a Canadian citizen, would be able to work in the, you know, civil service of this country, and yet may also be a reserve member in–again, it's difficult to think of a situation where this would apply to another allied country other than the United States of America, just given geography, but that's the rationale.

Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions or comments?

Does the committee want a five‑minute recess? Mr. Pedersen, recess?

Mr. Pedersen: Five minutes–or a couple minutes, whatever it takes.

Mr. Chairperson: Agreed? [Agreed]

The committee recessed at 6:59 p.m.

____________

The committee resumed at 7:10 p.m.

Mr. Chairperson: Are there any further comments on the amendment?

Mr. Curry: Yes. So, although I think the spirit of this proposed change by Mr. Kinew is in a same–similar vein, I think that, unfortunately, because ally is not defined in the civil service, I think this may have too broad of a definition and needs further work.

I'd like to know if Mr. Kinew would like to withdraw it tonight, and then we can maybe work to find a way to perhaps add a definition of ally, so it can have a better impact on how this can be defined, especially in terms of, you know, what ally means.

Mr. Kinew: Yes, absolutely. This is interest of, you know, enhancing the spirit that the member for Kildonan (Mr. Curry) brought this forward in, and just, you know, recognizing I think a unique case, and so definitely open to collaboration. And so, with that in mind, I'm happy to withdraw the amendment, and, you know, we'll work on report stage amendment for the future. Yes.

Mr. Swan: I'll just make one other comment. I know there is a pretty tight timeline for report stage amendments. The House leader is from–no party is here, but I hope that there can be some, a spirit of co‑operation. So, if indeed the two of you chat and it's not possible for Legislative Counsel to get an amendment notified and filed within the very short time limits, that hopefully we can be creative so when the bill comes back for third reading, we can have a good discussion and hopefully enhance the bill.

Mr. Jon Reyes (St. Norbert): I want to thank the member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Kinew) for bringing this up. I just want to put for the record, I served with somebody from Sandy Bay back when I was in the Army Reserve and I feel it's important that we make this black and white, because I see this as grey, but I know your intent is very positive and it's just going to help our province of Manitoba and the Civil Service Commission.

Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions, comments?

Does the committee agree to withdraw Mr. Kinew's amendment? [Agreed]

Clause 2–pass; clause 3–pass; enacting clause–pass; title–pass. Bill be reported.

The hour being 7:11, what is the will of the committee?

An Honourable Member: Committee rise.

Mr. Chairperson: Committee rise.

COMMITTEE ROSE AT: 7:11 p.m.