Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table in the House copies of the annual reports for 2001 and 2002 fiscal year that have been previously distributed in accordance with intersessional procedures for The Co-operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board, the Cooperative Promotion Board, the Industrial Technology Centre and the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), if there is leave of the House, if there is a message, that leave be given to introduce Bill 3, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act, and that the same be now received and read a first time.

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am tabling the Lieutenant-Governor's message.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, as a result of discussions across the parties, this bill is proposed in order to establish an independent process by which in the future MLAs' indemnities and pay will be dealt with based on recommendations from the Fox-Decent commission.

* (13:35)

Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Smith), that leave be given to introduce Bill 4, The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment Act, and that same be now received and read a first time.

Ms. Barrett: This bill amends The Fire Departments Arbitration Act to make the provisions dealing with collective bargaining between firefighters and municipalities apply to collective bargaining between the City of Winnipeg and its paramedics.

Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, if I might have leave to ask the minister one question on this issue and then we are prepared to support it.

Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain to ask one question of the honourable Minister of Labour?

Some Honourable Members: Leave.

Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted.

Mr. Tweed: I would like to advise the House that the minister has been very positive in presenting this information to me and that we on this side of the House would like to encourage its speedy passage through the House, as she had offered to me, before December 12.

My question, and it is only one question, is: Is the Government willing to support a bill that we will be introducing that will create a separate class of driver's licence for emergency personnel in Manitoba that will limit the personal responsibility of emergency personnel when they incur vehicle damage in the course of their professional duties?

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Government Services, to respond to that question.

Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, it is certainly something that I will take under notice.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order.

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, in the view of speedy passage of this bill and the importance of it, I would ask the Government House Leader if we could possibly negotiate that this afternoon this bill could come to second reading shortly after the condolence motion.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the point of order, I believe there has been discussions with the Opposition to help facilitate early passage and any help we can get from the Opposition would certainly be appreciated by members on this side. I understand the minister is prepared to move second reading this afternoon.

Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does not have a point of order. It was just seeking information.

Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed]

Mr. Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us His Worship Mayor Dave Burgess, City of Brandon, and Mr. Glen Laubenstein.

Order. Could I have the co-operation of all honourable members and give me a chance to introduce our guests before we applaud?

His Worship Dave Burgess, City of Brandon, and Mr. Glen Laubenstein, who is the city manager of the City of Brandon. These are the guests of the honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Caldwell).

Also we have in the public gallery from Fort Richmond Collegiate 32 Grade 11 students under the direction of Ms. Liz Karman. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau).

* (13:40)

Also in the public gallery we have from Springs Christian Academy 36 Grades 9 and 11 students under the direction of Mr. Brad Dowler and Mr. David Griggs. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger).

Also in the public gallery we have from the Maples Collegiate Institute 14 Grades 9 to 12 students under the direction of Mr. Murray Goldenberg. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for The Maples (Mr. Aglugub).

Also I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today 35 fourth year nursing students from the University of Manitoba. These students are under the direction of Linda West.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today.

Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in September Manitoba's Agriculture Minister signed on to the Agricultural Policy Framework. At the time of the signing the federal Minister of Agriculture said of the bridge money that was part of the APF, and I quote: That this was to assist producers across Canada for all the different types of stress.

Today Manitoba's Agriculture Minister is down yet again in Ottawa instead of here in Manitoba fighting for the Manitoba farmer. The Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) stated, and I quote: Manitoba's prosperity and growth depend on strong adaptable farming communities and the family farms that form the foundation of our agriculture and food industry.

The Premier is on record, and I quote: This Government is deeply committed to the family farm.

Mr. Speaker, given the Premier's words, given the Minister of Agriculture's words, why have they not flowed the 40 percent from that agreement? We on this side of the House do not believe our farmers are 40 percent less valuable than our neighbours in Ontario or Alberta. Why does he? Why does he think they are less valuable?

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am shocked that the Leader of the Opposition would be proposing that he, if ever, God forbid, was elected Premier, would not send the Minister of Agriculture to attend federal-provincial meetings. I am shocked that he thinks it is wrong for the Minister of Agriculture to represent Manitoba at an Agriculture Minister's meeting. I think he should apologize to the Minister of Agriculture.

Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. I need to be able to hear the question please.

Mr. Murray: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The only apology that should be provided in this House today is from that Premier for allowing Manitoba farmers to suffer because he will not sign on for the additional 40 percent. Give them the money. Put those cheques in the mail today if you mean what you say.

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): In the last session of the–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition.

Mr. Murray: On a new question, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: Okay, the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question.

Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. According to the Winnipeg Police Service, since the beginning of the year approximately 250 police officers have been assaulted in the city of Winnipeg. According to Statistics Canada, in the past five years assaults on police officers have increased by 32 percent. That is unacceptable. Steps must be taken to ensure that police officers are able to do their jobs without risk of being assaulted. A strong message must be sent that assaulting police officers will not be tolerated.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier: What is he doing to address the problem of assaults on police officers?

* (13:45)

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): First of all, Mr. Speaker, we have through our approval process and other means of legislative decisions increased the number of police officers to an unprecedented level here in Manitoba.

Secondly, we have added and we are still working on increasing the number of Crown attorneys and prosecution individuals.

Thirdly, just a couple of weeks ago Winnipeg Police Service applauded our measures for reducing the number of car thefts here in Manitoba and Winnipeg with the violations.

Fourthly, we are working to have photo radar at intersections and other areas of traffic violations to allow police officers to be assigned to more crucial areas. I would expect, although we cannot speak on individual cases, but we certainly believe on this side of the House that police officers should be backed up by the courts and consequences should reflect the fact that peace officers and police officers are protecting Manitobans every day of their lives.

Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the chief of police for the city of Winnipeg has described the assaults as something that is becoming all too common. In fact, Chief Jack Ewatski said, and I quote: That an attack against a police officer is an attack against society. We agree with that.

He also said that he was disturbed about the number and the frequency of the assaults against officers and that we need to send a very strong message that it is not open season on police officers while on duty. In fact in our alternative throne speech we said that strong action must be taken regarding the assault of police officers.

I would ask the Premier why there was no mention of this very, very serious issue in his Throne Speech. Why is he silent on this issue?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that the Opposition has been listening to the Government's work in this area to ensure that there are indeed effective and very special protections for police officers, these sentinels of the justice system.

First of all, we have raised with Ottawa and then just three weeks ago with our counterparts from across Canada the need to change the Criminal Code to ensure that anyone who murders a police officer and is sentenced to life in prison gets exactly that, life.

Second of all, the Opposition knows that two weeks ago we announced we had very serious concerns about the protections for police officers in the Criminal Code. We have undertaken a consultation process with the police to hear from them first-hand what special protections they seek in the Criminal Code. We will back them up. It is not good enough that there is a five-year maximum on assault as a five-year maximum assault on police.

Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a resolution, please.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition has the floor.

Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police passed a resolution this summer urging the federal Minister of Justice and Attorney General to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to create a mandatory minimum sentence for those individuals who are convicted of assaulting a police officer when the assault causes bodily harm or if the assault was committed while using a weapon.

Does the Premier support the resolution that would send a strong message that assaulting police officers will not be tolerated? In the spirit of that co-operation, would he be prepared to give leave to have the resolution passed? I would hope that this First Minister would take this seriously enough that he will second the motion.

* (13:50)

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the resolution does not go as far as we have called on in the past. I have said before publicly, and our Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) has just repeated it, that we believe the strongest message should be taken with the Criminal Code of Canada. We have supported the fact that life should be life for any capital offences against police officers in our society. We said that publicly well over a year ago, before this ministers' meeting. I would think we would want to strengthen up this resolution, not pass it, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, in 1995, the current Minister of Justice put forward a discussion paper advocating that criminals who break bail conditions should be ineligible for further release. On October 27, 1998, the Free Press reported that, as part of his plan to overhaul the system, bail should be eliminated for people charged with violent offences who have previously breached bail conditions.

Why is it that Leona Mavis McKay who is charged with second degree murder, who is released on bail and then sent to the St. Norbert Treatment Centre, who then escaped from that treatment centre on August 30 of this year, was caught and then was subsequently re-released on bail to reside with her grandparents in Cross Lake. She violated her bail conditions. What happened to this minister's statements that bail should be eliminated for people who violate bail conditions?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The question, Mr. Speaker, is quite fascinating coming from someone trained in the law. The member should know full well that the bail laws are set out in the Criminal Code, which is under the jurisdiction of the Parliament of Canada. We have been calling for changes to enhance the bail procedures in this country.

I might also add, Mr. Speaker, that I find it interesting the member wants to talk about a particular case. That is a matter that has been determined by the court. The position of the Crown was made known to the court. The court made a decision based on the law and the evidence available. I find it quite fascinating that he would expect a minister of the Crown to get up, especially the Attorney General, and speak about a case that is before the courts, but particularly one that is facing trial.

Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, why is this minister continuing to try to skate around the issue? He knows full well that he had a plan. That plan and his efforts have failed to address the problem of releasing criminals again and again on bail, even though bail conditions are being broken willfully in this province. He had a plan which failed to address the problem. What is the minister prepared to do about this situation?

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, the answers from my first question stand, but the member should know that the toughest place to get bail in this country is Manitoba. Our correctional facilities to almost half are filled with people who have been denied bail. It is a place where the prosecution in this country and in this province takes a very strong position on bail.

Mr. Speaker, we have, I should add, increased our resources to the Prosecutions Division by 30 percent since coming into office when we saw cuts during the years of the Opposition when they were in government. So it is incumbent on the Opposition to watch what their history was when they were in government.

Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, why is this Minister of Justice in a state of denial when he knows, or ought to know, that he has been in power now for more than three years yet he has still not dealt with this problem that he said existed in 1998? He has done nothing to back up his words with action. When will this minister finally accept responsibility for failing in his commitments to Manitobans to be tougher on crime?

Mr. Mackintosh: There are more people serving time under remand now than during the '90s, I can assure the member opposite but, Mr. Speaker, the example he gives is a case that is before the courts. It is a case that is pending a trial. If the member wants to know what the trends in Canada are and how the Prosecutions Branch is dealing with bail and how the courts are responding, he need only look at how many people are being denied bail in the province of Manitoba.

* (13:55)

Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, while we are well aware that Winnipeg is ranked No. 1 in the nation as far as car thefts go according to Stats Canada, I want to ask the Minister of Justice whether he is aware of the 450 plus investigations currently under way in and about Portage la Prairie regarding motor vehicle thefts. If I might just mention to the minister that while Winnipeg is ranked No. 1 with a little more than 8000 vehicle thefts annually, if this 450 was prorated it would equal more than 24 000 vehicle thefts in the city of Winnipeg.

So I want to ask the Minister of Justice: What is he doing to curb this epidemic in rural Manitoba?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Mr. Speaker, I have before me a press release from Winnipeg Police Service, dated November 20, and the press release says in part: For the first time in approximately six years, the city of Winnipeg is experiencing a reduction in the number of vehicles that have been stolen. The reduction is being contributed to by the actions taken by the provincial government, Manitoba Public Insurance and the Winnipeg Police Service.

Mr. Faurschou: Mr. Speaker, while I am pleased to see this Government taking action within the city limits, what is this Minister of Justice doing outside the city limits of Winnipeg?

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, the answer to the member's question was actually in his first question. There are matters that are proceeding to court outside of Winnipeg. There are actions being taken by police jointly and with MPI, with local officials, even Chamber of Commerce officials, I understand, outside of Winnipeg.

Mr. Speaker, what is happening is that law enforcement is doing its job in apprehending and Prosecutions is doing its job by proceeding to court. We have to make sure that across this province there is a very strong message that auto theft is not just a crime against property, it is a crime against people as well. We are starting to see some trends across this province that are encouraging. We still have some hot spots. We recognize that, and we are seeing law enforcement being very, very responsive in dealing with those hot spots.

Mr. Faurschou: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do believe the minister's words ring hollow, when currently RCMP refer to this Government's policy as a catch-and-release policy. Where they are doing their job to apprehend the individuals, there is a policy of a revolving door within the Justice Department.

What is this minister going to do to stop this revolving door?

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, as a result of partnerships involving MPI, where, for example, fingerprinting is being done now through their facilities, the bait vehicles are being made available outside of Winnipeg, there are apprehensions.

The next stage, and I spoke to the commanding officer of the RCMP just last week on this issue, there are a couple of hot spots in rural Manitoba. As a result, I understand that the RCMP is pulling together persons, stakeholders in the justice system, including prosecutors and probation, to determine what more can be done in a concerted way to deal with these outbreaks, but that is how these outbreaks are responded to. They are being led by the RCMP, as is appropriate, with the involvement of Manitoba Justice.

So, Mr. Speaker, there is action that is being effective. We have learned lessons in Winnipeg. The numbers are coming down. There are good lessons that we have learned and we are applying that throughout the province.

* (14:00)

Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr. Speaker, while in opposition, the Minister of Justice talked tough on crime, but we find that after three years in government he has been very soft. In fact, I would like to table a copy of a publication from the West Kildonan Residents Association. This publication was printed right out of the Minister of Justice's office. It says: Graffiti attacks, break and enters, car thefts and even murders continue to perplex and unsettle West Kildonan residents. Slum landlords and their derelict houses are growing in number and gang members are all too frequently their tenants. Our priorities and our safety will suffer with four more years of inaction.

Mr. Speaker, what does the Minister of Justice have to say to his residents in West Kildonan for his soft stance on crime since he has taken office, soft stance right in his own constituency?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, earlier in Question Period we reminded members opposite that we had been calling for a life sentence meaning exactly that when there is a murder of a police officer. For members from the Opposition to ask who is soft and who is tough, I would like to know where they stand. Where were they when we were calling for getting tough on the murders of police officers?

Mrs. Mitchelson: I would like to ask the Minister of Justice where he has been while graffiti attacks, break and enters, car thefts and even murders continue to escalate in his own constituency and his residents are demanding action. Why is he sitting on the sidelines and not supporting tougher action on crime in his own community?

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, we do not need lessons from a party that was in power as this province suffered the highest violent crime rate ever recorded in the history of this province.

I note the members were referring to a publication of the West Kildonan Residents Association. Also in there is an article about the St. John's Youth Justice Council. It says part of the province of Manitoba's alternative measures and victims' rights programs, youth justice councils are working with victims and offenders throughout Manitoba to champion real justice and steer youth away from crime. Part of the answer is in that same publication.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, a lot of rhetoric and no action.

Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the residents in his constituency believe their constituency is going downhill under his watch. What action is he prepared to take as a result of the Hells Angels picking his constituency? How is he going to protect his residents in his constituency from the Hells Angels? Will the legislation that he has introduced shut down the Hells Angels in his community? Yes or no.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the member knows there is legislation before the House. Organized crime is not welcome in any community in Manitoba.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, in the Premier's submission to the Romanow Commission the Premier argued that health care funding should be provided in an envelope separate from the CHST, the Canada Health and Social Transfer. Surely the same accountability could be achieved if the Finance Minister provided annually in the Budget details of how the Province allocated funds received under the CHST so that Manitobans will know how much of the $677 million received last year through CHST was spent on health care, social services or on post-secondary education.

I ask the Premier to be accountable and to tell us today how much of last year's CHST was spent on health care, how much on social services and how much on post-secondary education.

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, when the member opposite was in Cabinet and combined the health care funding, the social services funding and the post-secondary education funding into one envelope called the CHST and then cut it by 33 percent, it was indeed in our view an attempt to cover up in some way the drastic and dramatic impact of that federal budget on health care, on post-secondary education and on social services.

Mr. Speaker, the CHST money which is in the provincial Budget is recorded under the section of transfers from the federal government and it is recorded exactly as the transfers from the federal government are made to us, as it has been with any other federal program that has been established in Parliament by parliamentarians with their vote in their budgets and then we reflect it. We cannot change the name of parliamentary money on parliamentary allocations to something we would find convenient here in Manitoba. Having said that, the Romanow report, which I am sure the member has read, has a description of the amount of money with provincial governments. For example, it talks about an average between 40 and 45 percent of the CHST goes into the provincial budgets, I believe. Certainly, for Manitoba, we are within that average for health care.

Mr. Gerrard: The money may be given from the federal government but certainly the Province can report how it spends it and should.

I ask: Is the Premier suggesting that he is not capable of reporting how the CHST is spent in this province? Is the Premier wanting Ottawa to take control rather than Manitoba having the option and Manitoba doing the reporting and Manitoba taking the responsibility?

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe the member opposite also appeared before the Romanow report, unlike many other opposition members across Canada.

I have no difficulty going back from the establishment of the CHST, back to the CHST, back in the budget he voted for in '94-95 and '95-96 and pointing out that the amount of money he voted to cut out of health care in 1995 was the equivalent of closing down every hospital in rural and northern Manitoba. We are capable, sir, of telling you how much you have cut out of the budget, and we are putting it back into health care with our own budgets. We have complete and accurate descriptions of all monies expended.

We have not taken our health care budget and rolled it into social services. We have not taken our social services budget and rolled it into post-secondary. It is post-secondary, social services, family services and health care. We account for every dollar separately, not like you did it when you did when you were in office.

Mr. Gerrard: All this needs is a simple reporting of how the–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I need to be able to hear the question. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please.

Mr. Gerrard: The Romanow report called for accountability, the sixth principle of medicare. It is time that the Province is accountable for how the dollars are spent. Why do you not come to the table and provide the reporting?

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, why is this member not accountable for not reading the Romanow report? He stands up in this House, blabs on and he has not read the report. The section dealing with accountability on money from the federal government to the provinces quotes the Manitoba presentation as part of the foundation of the recommendation that Mr. Romanow makes to Canadians. You have not read the report, sir. I suggest you do it and you will find an absolute recommendation from Manitoba and a commitment to Canadians and to the federal government that we are prepared to be accountable for every cent we receive from the federal government, whether it is 14 percent of our health care budget or maybe 15 percent as the member opposite is relegating us to when he voted for a budget when we are prepared to be accountable for every dollar as we recommended.

* (14:10)

Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, today Manitobans read about a disturbing and horrendous criminal case that has been dropped by the Crown, a case that involves a young woman who allegedly suffered years of the most shocking sexual abuse anyone can imagine. I would like to ask the Attorney General to advise us why his Crown attorneys dropped the case.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I read that article and I was, like the member opposite, profoundly affected by the allegations there and the story as it was set out in that particular newspaper. My understanding from that is that the Crown, which proceeds on the basis of the available evidence and the law, could not meet the threshold required for proceeding with the case. If there is other information, I can provide that to the member opposite, but I understand that was the professional judgment that was made by the Prosecutions service of Manitoba.

Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask the Attorney General if he is satisfied with the Crown attorney's decision not to proceed on this case.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, we are blessed in this province with having an excellent Prosecutions service, one that we have worked hard to back up with the necessary resources, recognizing the burden on prosecutors always and the burden right across this country, but our prosecutors are there to make professional judgments. They have the evidence that is available before them. As well, they are well versed in the law. So, based on the information that is available to me, I think members should recognize that professional judgment is one that should be respected in this exercise in this particular case.

Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Attorney General if he is prepared to ask for any further review of this case, to be absolutely sure that justice for this woman is achieved.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will have some background information provided to me on what transpired, but it is not the role of politicians in this country to be telling prosecutors what to do and what not to do. That is political interference and if I did so the member would be standing on her feet demanding that I resign.

Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, a number of ethanol plants have been announced in Saskatchewan and the Government of Saskatchewan has announced that it will be involved in the new plant in Belle Plaine with its Crown investment corporation to approximately 40% equity.

I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) if he could tell this House what level of commitment this Government is prepared to make to promote the development of Manitoba's ethanol industry.

Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): As I told the honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler) yesterday, we are expecting the release of the ethanol panel report which will contain, among other things, I am sure, recommendations in regard to the level and manner in which we would make commitments to ethanol producers here.

Our Throne Speech and our budget speeches have indicated a commitment to a mandate which is obviously what creates the market for 140 million litres. We know that plants probably need export markets to be effective in terms of their business plans. We are working with other jurisdictions to ensure those markets are there as well. I am sure the member will welcome the panel's report, which will be available shortly.

Mr. Tweed: Again I will ask the Minister of Finance if he can tell this House if the Government anticipates having to become a direct stakeholder in new ethanol plants in order to bring them to fruition.

Mr. Sale: It is interesting that the member opposite at least recognizes that government can be a force for good in the economy. That is progress. I would tell the member that the very large plant in Minnesota, which was just opened–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Sale: I would just tell the member that he might want to think about the plant that was opened in Minnesota which was done entirely by farmers through a new gen co-op with no equity from any outside party.

On the other hand, commercial alcohols in Ontario built a plant in Chatham, approximately 150-million-litre plant, which was entirely privately owned.

So there are a variety of models, including partial equity, new generation co-ops, limited partnerships, which is a model that is being proposed by some. We will look at all those models, we will look at the report from the panel and we will make our decision on the best way to forward this market and ensure that ethanol production takes place here, not just for Manitoba but for export, for jobs, for farmers, for crops.

Mr. Tweed: Again, I will ask the Minister of Finance if he can tell this House if he anticipates that in order for Manitoba's ethanol industry to grow, it will need a subsidy comparable to that of Saskatchewan's industry of approximately 25 cents per litre.

Mr. Sale: I think the member should perhaps go back and check Hansard. I have already given an indication that Saskatchewan is providing a 15- cent-a-litre subsidy. The total subsidy with the federal excise tax rebate is 25 cents, so that is the combination of the federal and provincial levy.

Provincially, in Manitoba, we will have to determine following the report what level of support is appropriate and the mechanism by which that support might be provided to the new industry.

Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Yesterday the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology said and I quote: That most industrial manufacturers of ethanol in Canada believe that they need a subsidy. Can the Minister of Finance tell this House if the Government is prepared to subsidize the growth of Manitoba's ethanol industry?

Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): I am delighted that the Opposition is so keen to see the report. I think they will be pleased with it, as will Manitobans, in terms of its detail and the strategies that it will no doubt recommend.

There is no question that in the United States and in Canada a level of support is needed to make the production of ethanol effective for the market. If the member would perhaps examine federal economic numbers he will find that over the last decade or so the federal government has subsidized the fossil fuel industry in this country to the tune of over $40 billion in that period of time.

So it is very interesting. The only form of energy production in this country that is not deeply subsidized is hydro-electricity. That is the only form of energy that is not deeply subsidized, so I am sure the member will look forward to the release of the report in due course, which will be very soon, and the whole matter of subsidy levels will be debated in that context.

Mr. Schuler: As the Minister of Finance I am sure is aware, yesterday the minister in charge of this issue said all questions should be directed towards him. So for the purposes of clarity, can the Minister of Finance tell this House what Manitobans can expect or when they can expect the first series of ethanol plants to come on-line, and what is going to be the Government's stake? Is the Government going to be taking a position of ownership with these plants? We would certainly like to hear from the minister who is going to be responsible for this.

Mr. Sale: Well, I can repeat to the member as I said several times already, Mr. Speaker, that we are in active negotiation with a number of ethanol producers, including the largest ones in Canada. I am meeting next week with a group from the eastern side of our province in the Beausejour area. I have met with the IOGEN Corporation in Ottawa who are very interested in the location in Killarney for their first plant, which I am sure the member knows. It has been in the paper.

I am prepared to meet with the other groups who are proposing the development of plants, and of course, all of that will take place in the framework that we will determine following the report of the ethanol panel which will be received shortly.

Mr. Schuler: Can the Minister of Finance now share with this House the dollar value of the total commitment this Government will be required to make in order to expand Manitoba's ethanol industry, and is the Government considering moving the 2.5 cent per litre subsidy up to 3.5 cents?

Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, I can only hope that the member does not have the same hearing problem that I do. I have answered that question over and over and over again. When the report comes out, we will have an opportunity to look at the Manitoba market of 140 million, what is required to make those plants affordable, efficient, economical resources for our farmers and our feedlot operators. All of those things will be announced in due course. It is the same answer I have now given I think it is nine times.

* (14:20)

Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, it would be nicer if this Government actually did something instead of just referring back to reports.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health, who in April agreed in a memorandum of understanding with the nurses' union to set up a committee to come up with solutions to the problem of students who are graduating from the nursing school not being able to find full-time jobs. Yesterday he would not tell us if they had met and he would not tell us if they had any recommendation, because he knows he has only appointed two people, they have only met once and they have no recommendations.

So, on behalf of the students who are graduating in the gallery, I would like the minister to answer to them what is he going to do.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind the House once again–order. When the Speaker stands, all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I would like to remind all honourable members once again. I would like to take this opportunity to advise our guests in the gallery there is to be absolutely no participation by our guests in the gallery and that includes applauding.

The honourable Minister of Health, with the answer.

Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the member yesterday, I was very surprised that in the alternative offered by the Conservatives to the Government, they never mentioned the word "nurse" once in there, just as they did during 11 years when they rolled back the nurses' wages, stopped the nurses' programs and fired nurses left and right.

I am very happy to report, Mr. Speaker, that not only when we had negotiated an agreement with the MNU, we decided to do something that was never done in 11 years in this province. That was to work with nurses and put them on the same working group so that we could solve the problems together. I am very pleased that the group has met, has a work plan, has principles that it is working on and has contributed–[interjection]

Well, Mr. Speaker, I know they did not listen to nurses for 11 years, but we did. We work with the nurses. We have, and we will continue to do so.

Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like the co-operation of all honourable members. We are into members' statements and the member who has the floor on their member's statement has the right to be heard. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. If you want to have a conversation, you can use the loges, you can go out in the hallway, if you choose, but the member who has the floor has the right to be heard.

Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, on December 2, almost 500 people of all ages gathered at the Canad Inn, Polo Park, for an evening filled with delicious food, engaging speeches and entertaining conversation. On that day the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba hosted our annual fall banquet.

Mr. Speaker, from one side of the room to the other, everyone recognized the need for a change in government in Manitoba. Former Manitoba Premier Gary Filmon spoke and noted the current NDP government has seen increased revenue of over 800 million in three years as opposed to the five years Mr. Filmon had projected in his 1999 election plan. Furthermore, Mr. Filmon stressed that the current government is now taking an unprecedented $1 million per day out of Manitoba Hydro.

Following Mr. Filmon's speech, we all listened intently to the vision of a man who has committed himself to making this change in government happen, our Leader, the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray). He highlighted our recent alternative throne speech, which focussed on providing choice and timely access to health care, excellence in our schools, real justice for truly safer communities and responsible spending of taxpayers' dollars. Might I say that this vision is certainly very different than the one, or shall I say lack of one, we have seen from members opposite.

Mr. Speaker, I am sure I speak for all members on this side of the House when I say I am proud to be part of a political party that believes Manitobans deserve so much more from a government than what they are currently getting. I know we were all encouraged when on December 2 many Manitobans told us that they share this belief.

I would like to say a word of thanks to all who attended this event, as well as those who played a role in organizing it.

Mr. Cris Aglugub (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise on this occasion to speak on the opening of a new Manitoba Child Care Association office site located on the second floor of the Royal Bank building at 2348 McPhillips. On October 10, I was honoured to attend the ribbon-cutting ceremony of the new MCCA along with my colleagues, the Minister of Science, Energy and Technology (Mr. Sale), the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Caldwell) and the M.P. for Winnipeg North Centre, Judy Wasylycia-Leis. With well over 50 people in attendance, the opening was a spectacular success and it was a pleasure to welcome the MCCA to their new home.

The Manitoba Child Care Association is a non-profit, membership-funded, non-partisan organization which advocates for a quality system of child care and works to advance early childhood education as a profession while working with government to promote further awareness of child care issues. First founded in 1974 as a volunteer-based organization, the MCCA now employs seven staff and boasts a membership of over 2700 today.

The membership of the MCCA are a diverse group of early childhood educators, centre administrators, parent volunteers, academics, students and other advocates for children. These members have access to MCCA's resource centre: a collection of books, videos, curriculum guides and newsletters on early childhood education. The MCCA also offers training workshops for their members to expand and share their understanding of issues in child care. In November alone over 400 people participated in these workshops.

This Government has always put a high priority on affordable child care and will continue to work with the MCCA in the future to support early childhood education in the province.

I want to congratulate the MCCA on their new premises and wish them every success in the pursuit of their goals.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak briefly about my use of the term "schizophrenic socialist" last Friday and this Monday. My use raised a concern by the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society and I met yesterday with Jane Burpee and Dr. Chris Summerville of the society to apologize and to better understand their concerns.

First, I want to clarify that I was trying to use a term that described the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Caldwell), who is part of a government which says one thing, that the Government supports those who are poor, and yet does something else, failing to increase support for those on social assistance so they must get by on $20 a week for food and entertainment. I was searching for a word to factually characterize this type of behaviour in which a person or a government says one thing and does another. I was not trying to be judgmental or derogatory, just factual, and I chose the word "schizophrenia" which in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary has the meaning: an "approach characterized by inconsistent or contradictory elements." The Canadian Oxford Dictionary refers to this definition of schizophrenia as political schizophrenia to contrast it with the mental disease schizophrenia.

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While the use of this term is perfectly acceptable English, it clearly is of concern to those in the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society. I now understand after my discussion with Dr. Chris Summerville and Jane Burpee that this is because there is a tendency to assume that its use in this context is derogatory or stigmatizing the people with schizophrenia.

Accordingly, I have apologized to members of the society. In extending my apology to members of the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society I also want to acknowledge the important work that the society does on behalf of those with schizophrenia, including the peer support group, the voice hearers group, the women's support group, the name-that-feeling group, the family education program, the eight stages of healing workshop. These are important contributions and the society is to be commended for their efforts on behalf of those with schizophrenia.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired.

Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I rise today to offer my congratulations to Morden physician Dr. Robert Menzies, who was recently honoured by the College of Family Physicians of Canada receiving the Reg L. Perkin Award. The awards are peer chosen, given to the College of Family and Physicians of Canada physician members who exemplify the best of what being a family doctor is all about, including exceptional care of their patients, combined with the significant contribution to the health and well-being of their communities and/or society in general.

The recipients of this award embody the four principles of family medicine: a skilled clinician, community based, resource to their practice populations and recognizing the central importance of a doctor-patient relationship. Recipients will be met and will interact with community groups throughout the year of the award to share the meaning of being a family physician.

The College of Family Physicians of Canada president, Dr. Dominique Tessier, explained: I believe these individuals demonstrate the quality of family medicine in Canada. They are worthy representatives of the great work being done by thousands of family doctors across the country, who together are the backbone of the health care system in Canada.

This is not the first time a member of the Menzies family has received this prestigious award. Doctor Menzies' father, Jim, won the award in 1973 for his own work as a family physician in Morden. Indeed, the family's medical history runs deep, with Menzies' grandfather also having practised in Morden. In typically modest fashion, Doctor Menzies stated on receiving the award: It is not me doing something for the community. It is a partnership of all the work that goes on there.

On behalf of Morden and area residents, I would like to offer my congratulations and my thanks to Dr. Robert Menzies for all that he has done in our community.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, with the holiday season approaching, once again it is time for a reminder not to drink and drive. That is the message of Mothers Against Drunk Driving, Winnipeg chapter, when they kicked off their Project Red Ribbon campaign in co-operation with Manitoba Justice this past week.

This red ribbon should be the only thing that one ties on this holiday season when they are going to be driving. Manitobans are encouraged to tie this red ribbon onto their vehicle as a way of demonstrating that they are reminding motorists to drive sober and avoid any unnecessary tragedy while travelling to and from our holiday celebrations.

The red ribbon is a tribute to honour those who have been killed or injured in impaired driving crashes. Attaching this ribbon to your vehicle serves a constant message to people on the roads to drive safe and sober. The Mothers Against Drunk Driving Canada red ribbon is also a statement that the driver of the vehicle has made a personal commitment to drive sober.

I want to recognize a number of local businesses for ensuring that this holiday message not to drink and drive will be very visible throughout the city. The media has been wonderful ensuring that this message gets out before the public. On city streets, Winnipeg Transit is carrying the message, as well as Duffy's and Unicity taxi companies. Manitoba Public Insurance fleet company cars will be flying ribbons. The public can pick up ribbons at many businesses located on the Mothers Against Drunk Driving Winnipeg office.

In conjunction with the launch of this campaign, I want to recognize Manitoba Justice, who for the first time in Canada are going to ensure that vehicles driven by impaired drivers may be permanently forfeiting their vehicles, which would be seized and sold under the toughest new law in the country that took effect two days ago.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, as agreed to yesterday, we will be dealing with condolences and Government Business. Just to make it clear, condolences will be dealt with first. Then we will have bills, first of all, by leave, second reading of Bill 4 and then Bill 2 as on the Order Paper.

Then, Mr. Speaker, if there is leave, to deal with the new rules of the House that have been worked on for some time this afternoon. Then, finally, if there is leave, to deal with Bill 3 that was given first reading earlier today. So if we could deal with that in that order.

So leave, Mr. Speaker, would be requested to deal with the rules of the House and with Bills 3 and 4.

Mr. Speaker: The order of business for this afternoon, we will be starting off with condolences, and then is there leave to deal with Bill 4, if there is time? There is leave? [Agreed]

Then we will deal with Bill 2, as is on the Order Paper.

Then I will seek leave for dealing with the rules of the House. Is there leave? [Agreed] So that would be next.

Then if there is time, we would deal with Bill No. 3, if there is leave. Is there leave? [Agreed]

So that will be the order in which we will deal with the government business this afternoon.

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Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray),

THAT this House convey to the family of the late Douglas Stanes, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and that the Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, Douglas Stanes was elected to this Legislative Assembly on June 16, 1958, for the Progressive Conservative Party for the electoral division of St. James. He was re-elected in the general elections of May 14, 1959, December 14, 1962, and June 23, 1966.

Mr. Stanes, of course, was well known to the people of St. James, to the community members in that west side of the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Stanes was an elected member of the St. James City Council prior to his election to this Legislature. He was a member of St. James Chamber of Commerce. He was obviously a person who had a great deal of support from the people of that community. In fact, with the formation of Unicity in 1971, Mr. Stanes was elected to that first Winnipeg City Council in the Deer Lodge Ward of the St. James community, and he was re-elected as councillor in 1974 and again in 1977.

So you can see, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Stanes certainly has had a long and distinguished political career. It is obvious from his curriculum vitae that he was an individual who certainly had the respect of his constituents. There are members who grew up under his representation in the west end of Winnipeg who are now on our caucus, and I am sure that members opposite would know Mr. Stanes well with his activity in the Progressive Conservative Party and in the government of Duff Roblin here in this Legislature.

Mr. Speaker, prior to his election to the Legislature, he had a military career. He was a Lieutenant-Colonel in the Middlesex Regiment. He served in Southeast Asia, the Middle East and Europe. From 1945-46, he was Senior Official on Industrial Rehabilitation with the British Economic Mission in Greece.

He then, as I say, became a member of the St. James Chamber of Commerce and then subsequently was elected to a political career for the west end of the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Stanes was a manager-director of Western Refractories Ltd., which was his business and outside career. During his political career he also served on the Provincial Civil Defence Advisory Board. So this is an individual obviously representing St. James with knowledge of the military community and also knowledge of the manufacturing sector with his job as manager-director.

Mr. Stanes was the president of the Empire Club of Manitoba, the St. James Kiwanis Club, a member of the No. 4 St. James Canadian Legion and a member of the Deer Lodge United Church. He was predeceased by his wife and only child, a son. Upon his retirement he moved to White Rock, British Columbia, where he passed away on April 29, 2001.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Stanes had a long and illustrious career in this Legislature and to the people of St. James before he was elected to the Legislature and Deer Lodge after. He was obviously a leader in his community. I did not know him well, but the people who knew him that I know of spoke of him as a person with integrity, a person who represented his constituents very well.

On behalf of the people of Manitoba, we pass on our condolences to the family and thank Mr. Stanes's family for a service to the people of Manitoba with his devotion during his life to the people he served so well.

Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak on behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus in Manitoba to pay tribute to Douglas Stanes. He was indeed a member of our party, but his beginnings, I think, are very interesting. He was somebody that was born in England. He went to school there, where he joined the army. In the army he became a colonel. I think it is perhaps somewhat forward looking that he worked out of the Intelligence Branch. Perhaps that led him to look at the Progressive Conservative Party further in his political career.

Mr. Speaker, clearly he spent a number of years elected in the city of Winnipeg. In particular when he was in Winnipeg he started out being elected in the civic government in St. James City Council in 1955 and was re-elected in 1957. He went on to become a member of the provincial Legislative Assembly when he was elected on June 16, 1958, for the constituency of St. James. He was then re-elected in the general election on May 14, 1959; December 14, 1962; and June 23, 1966.

Clearly, from members on this side, we believe that when you get into elected politics, as Mr. Stanes did, it is a lot about your background and what you believe in your community. Clearly Mr. Stanes was very, very well represented and well liked in the constituency and area of St. James.

His background, whether in business, as was mentioned: the manager-director of the Western Refractories Ltd; he was a member of the Provincial Civil Defence Advisory Board; president of the Empire Club of Manitoba; a lieutenant-colonel in the Middlesex Regiment; and a senior official in Industrial Rehabilitation with the British Economic Mission in Greece from the years 1945 to 1946; a member of the St. James Chamber of Commerce, the St. James Kiwanis Club, the St. James Canadian Legion.

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I think it was fitting, Mr. Speaker, that I had an opportunity to speak to another one of our former members, Mr. J. Frank Johnston, who was recalling some of the times that Mr. Stanes had here in the Legislature as well as in the community, and he went on to tell me that one thing Mr. Stanes was well known for was his tremendous community work, obviously a very dedicated member of, not only the St. James community but clearly, through his election, the provincial Legislature. I think his dedication should be well documented by the fact that all of us in this House, Mr. Speaker, I think, rise today to pay tribute, not only to Mr. Douglas Stanes, but also to the Stanes family for allowing Mr. Stanes to do the kinds of things that he did, which was to make a better St. James, a better Winnipeg and a better Manitoba.

So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to also add on behalf of the PC caucus, the PC Party of Manitoba, our condolences to the Stanes family and certainly recognition that is well deserved for somebody who served their community, their city and their province well.

Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): Good day, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to rise on the condolence motion for Douglas Stanes. As a member of the Legislature for west Winnipeg I was interested in looking at his history and his work in the community.

It is interesting to note that he was first elected in 1955 to 1957 in the City Council of St. James, which was a city unto itself in the city before Metropolitan Winnipeg was formed. He then worked both as an MLA and as councillor in the city of St. James for 1958 and 1959 to show his energy and dedication to his community. It is interesting that he had a good reputation among the voters at that time. He was then an MLA from 1959 until 1969, which is a total of 12 years as MLA in this Chamber. In this Chamber he was involved in the committee on the environment, among many others.

He then, when Metro council was formed in 1969, became a member of Metro council and then in 1971 when Unicity was formed was another councillor for St. James-Assiniboia for six more years until 1977. He had about 22 years of service to his community of St. James.

He also was involved in the Kiwanis Club which established the Kiwanis Courts where my grandfather lived for many years. It was an interesting club because it was a stage where the Kiwanians focussed on setting up single-unit dwellings for seniors where they were supported. It was a unique experiment many years ago, and it is nice to see that we have continued that experiment and made it common practice.

Mr. Stanes was also from a military background, and considering the military presence of St. James, he really was able to understand the community well. To this day military presence in west Winnipeg is very strong, so I think he understood his community and represented it well.

He also lived on Guilford Street, and that is actually very close to the present MLA for St. James, Bonnie Korzeniowski. St. James is a small community. It is a community that really focusses on itself, on the growth of the community. It is nice to see that we had a person for 22 years who represented the community well and had some wonderful innovations.

I would like to express my condolences to the family and to those who loved him because I believe that he showed his dedication to Manitoba, his province, to the city of St. James and did a great job in our province. Thank you.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I want to extend condolences to the family and friends of Mr. Douglas Stanes on behalf of the Manitoba Liberal party. I would like to pay tribute to the contributions of Mr. Stanes in the armed forces, in business and in politics, both at the civic and at the provincial level. I want to pay tribute to his work in St. James and the community in St. James and also to the work that he did while in provincial politics from 1958 to 1969 serving in the provincial Legislature.

Mr. Speaker: Would honourable members please rise and remain standing to indicate their support for this motion.

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard),

THAT this House convey to the family of Roger Teillet, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and

that the Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family.

Mr. Doer: I rise today on the matter of the death of Roger Teillet and the life of his contributions to the people of Manitoba, the people of Canada and indeed the people of the world.

Roger Teillet was a very important figure in terms of his Franco-Manitoban heritage. He was a direct descendent of Marie-Anne Gaboury and Jean-Baptiste Lagimodiere. Madame Gaboury married Jean-Baptiste Lagimodiere in Québec and accompanied him to Manitoba, making her the first white female settler in the west. They were the grandparents of Louis Riel.

Mr. Teillet was a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force and was a navigator on Halifax bombers in World War II. In one mission in 1942, his plane was shot down and he was taken as a prisoner of war in Stalag Luft III, a hundred miles southeast of Berlin, which was only liberated in 1945, in other words, close to three years in a German prison camp. Fortunately, the prison camp he was in was not as brutal as some of the other camps of the time, and the Geneva Convention was adhered to as much as possible. The camp was one of six operated by the Luftwaffe for the downed British and North American air personnel.

Roger Teillet began his career as a member of the Manitoba Legislature in 1953 as a Progressive Conservative caucus member, and in 1959, he was elected with the Liberals. I am just checking this. I think there is an error in my notes. He was elected a member of the Liberal Progressive Party in 1953 for the electoral division of St. Boniface, and then he was elected, as I stated before, to the House of Commons.

Mr. Speaker, he certainly was a member in this Chamber. He would have been re-elected in the election in 1958, some five years after his first election in 1953, and, subsequent to that, he was first elected to the House of Commons in 1962, re-elected in 1963.

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He was a federal Minister of Veteran Affairs from 1963 to 1968 and therefore was a member of the Privy Council of Canada. After 1968, he was appointed to the Canadian Pension Commission where he served from 1968 to 1978.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Teillet was not a member of the Cabinet during his career here. Obviously, he was part of the Roblin government of 1953, and in that one term he served in the Legislature prior to moving on into federal politics.

He was a Minister of Veteran Affairs. I think he was very uniquely qualified for that job and in that capacity established a memorial in Halifax dedicated to the Navy. This monument is one of the few tangible reminders of the men who died at sea. The Royal Canadian Navy in the Second World War lost 24 ships, and nearly 2000 members lost their lives. This memorial was erected by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and was unveiled in November of 1967.

Mr. Teillet was very well respected by members of this Legislature, very well respected by the people of St. Boniface, very well respected by the Francophone community here and by Franco-Canadian members of the country. He was an individual, because of his ties back to Franco-Canadian history here in Manitoba, was a person whose history and contributions were extremely important to the pride of Francophones, to Manitobans and, therefore, to his great country of Canada.

We certainly believe that he hasd as I say, a long and distinguished career. He has had a career that spanned virtually a link to the establishment of the Francophone community here in Manitoba. He was an individual who served in the Second World War and sacrificed three years of his life. He then moved on to serve in the Legislature, in Parliament and in Cabinet.

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of this Legislature, I would like to offer our condolences to the family. I just want to make sure, Mr. Teillet was elected in 1953 and he was re-elected in 1958 in the general election in 1958 but then moved on to Parliament in 1962, again a person who had a tremendous amount of credibility and he did a very, very good job representing the people of St. Boniface.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Monsieur le président, je voudrais exprimer aux membres de la famille de M. Roger Teillet et à ses amis mes sincères condoléances suite à sa mort au mois de mai de cette année.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to express my sincere condolences to the family and friends of Roger Teillet, who passed away in May of this year.

I want to say a few words about the Honourable Roger Teillet. He was a man who was born with a lot of historical tradition of the family of very early settlers in Manitoba, his family and the tradition which he carried forward nobly, both in his career in the Armed Forces and his career in politics.

It is a tribute to Mr. Teillet that although he was a prisoner of war and undoubtedly suffered some very, very difficult times in the Second World War, that after the war was over and he had returned to St. Boniface, he dedicated much of his life to the community of St. Boniface, to the people of Manitoba.

He was elected in 1953 and served for several years as a member of the government of Douglas Campbell. During the fifties and as part of this government there were, of course, many notable contributions made to Manitoba with, as examples, considerable expansion of the highway system and a program of rural electrification, as well as the extension of the vote to Aboriginal people in Manitoba.

In 1958, Mr. Teillet was re-elected, but then he made a transition subsequent to that to the federal Parliament. He was elected a federal member of Parliament in St. Boniface in 1962. In 1963, in the government of Lester Pearson, he was appointed to the Cabinet and became the Minister of Veterans Affairs, in which position he served from 1963 to 1968. He made contributions to members who had served as veterans or who were veterans who had served in the armed forces. Because, I think, of his personal experience in the armed forces and as a prisoner of war, he brought with his responsibilities a particular sensitivity and concern for those who had served in the armed forces and played such an incredible role in protecting democracy and in protecting freedom and in making sure that we have the kind of world that we have today where democracy and freedom are so important to us.

I want to extend my best wishes to all the family and friends of Mr. Teillet and my condolences. His memory will certainly live on. He will be remembered for the many contributions that he has made to Manitoba and to Canada and to the free world.

Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would also like to rise to put a few comments on the record on behalf of Roger Teillet, who served in this Legislature as well as in the House of Commons. I thought it was interesting that Mr. Teillet was born a Red River Métis and apparently, being the grandson of Louis Riel, I thought it was interesting that he was born in St. Vital directly across the street from Riel House, that being on August 21, 1912.

He joined the Royal Canadian Air Force and at that time became a member of the 35 Squadron. During his time as a member of the 35 Squadron, Mr. Teillet successfully was involved in 24 bombing raids over Germany. In 1942, just two days before his 30th birthday, his plane was shot down in Germany, and Mr. Teillet, for 15 days, evaded German soldiers before being captured. He spent almost three years as a prisoner of war before being freed by the British army.

It was in 1953, back in Manitoba, when he was first elected as a Liberal Progressive member of that party. Certainly we know that he served under the premiership of Douglas Campbell. Following that, he went on to be elected to the House of Commons in 1962. At that point the then-Prime Minister, Mr. Pearson, made him the Minister of Veterans Affairs. It seemed only fitting, after what Mr. Teillet had been through, that he would certainly have a relationship with all those veterans that had been involved in the world war.

Following that, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Teillet went on, being named by Prime Minister Trudeau to head up the Canadian Pension Commission, with the mandate to reform veterans' pensions. There he certainly did leave his mark. Mr. Teillet was also a member of the Caterpillar Club for airmen saved by parachute and also an honourary Evader, the designation for those men behind enemy lines that were never captured. It is interesting that somebody with that dedication for their country that obviously served would also choose a career in political life, one that was obviously very successful and one that I believe that the people of this province are very much indebted to.

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On behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party, the members of our caucus, I would like to pay tribute not only to Roger Teillet, but also to his family. Certainly, we would send our condolences, but also our respect for, not only the way he served in the Legislature, but the way he served this country so valiantly and so honourably. I think, in the memory of Mr. Teillet, we have a great deal of gratitude, and we pay our tribute to both he and his family at this time.

Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): J'aimerais rendre hommage aujourd'hui à Roger Teillet qui est décédé le 1^er mai à Ottawa. Il a été non seulement député à l'Assemblée législative mais aussi un militaire, un homme d'état fédéral et un personnage important dans la communauté.

Métis de la rivière Rouge, Roger Teillet était descendant direct de Marie-Anne Gaboury et de Jean-Baptiste Lagimodière, étant le petit-fils de Joseph, le jeune frère de Louis Riel. Il est né en 1912 dans une maison à Saint-Vital juste en face de la Maison Riel.

Son père était Camille Teillet et sa mère était Sara Riel. A cause de la dépression il a dû quitter le Collège de Saint-Boniface après seulement deux ans d'études. Il est devenu apprenti en administration à la Banque nationale jusqu'au moment où la banque a dû fermer ses portes.

I would like to pay tribute today to Roger Teillet who passed away on May 1 of this year in Ottawa. He was not only an MLA but also a soldier, a federal minister and an important person in the community.

Seventeen days before Canada entered the Second World War, Roger Teillet joined the Royal Canadian Air Force. Mr. Teillet served his country well as a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force and a navigator on Halifax bombers in World War II. On his mission in 1942, he was shot down and he was taken prisoner of war and only liberated in 1945.

Il a débuté sa carrière comme député à l'Assemblée législative en 1953, et il a été élu député fédéral en 1962.

He began his career as an MLA in 1953 and was elected to Parliament in 1962.

While a sitting member of Parliament, Mr. Teillet was the Minister of Veterans Affairs from 1963 to 1969 and was Privy Councillor and was also named to the Canadian Pension Commission from 1968 to 1978. Roger Teillet was prouder of reforming the Pension Act than of anything else he had achieved.

En tant que ministre des Affaires des anciens combatants, M. Teillet a aidé à ériger un monument dédié à la marine à Halifax en Nouvelle-Écosse.

Nous offrons nos plus sincères condoléances à la famille de M. Roger Teillet. Nous avons perdu un homme d'État qui s'est distingué par son service public et militaire. Nous nous souviendrons de son rôle dans l'histoire du Manitoba.

As Minister of Veterans Affairs, he helped erect a monument to the Navy in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

We offer our most sincere condolences to Mr. Roger Teillet's family. We have lost a statesman who distinguished himself by his public and military service. We will not forget his role in the history of Manitoba.

We should note that his sister-in-law, Kathleen Teillet, a local journalist, is currently writing his biography, soon to be completed. Our sincerest sympathies to the Teillet family.

Merci beaucoup.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Would honourable members please rise and remain standing to indicate their support for the motion?

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray),

THAT this House convey to the family of the late Sidney Spivak, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincerest sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family.

Mr. Doer: It was not long ago that all of us found out, like a thunderbolt that came through this Chamber, of the tragic passing of Sidney Spivak at the relatively young age of 74. Words that we provide today to this condolence motion cannot begin to express, in my view, the feeling that all members of all sides had to his intellect, his wit, his humour, his ability to articulate, and the genuine warmth that we all felt toward him and his tremendous sense of Manitoba, Canada and the Jewish people of Manitoba and the world.

I think that we will all feel and I will feel inadequate in words today for the tremendous life lived by Sidney Spivak and the tremendous honour that all of us who knew him have for his tremendous contributions to our community and to this Legislature.

I have always respected his intellect, his inquisitive nature, his kind of thrust and parry on issues with knowledge, with skill and with a tremendous, how should I call it, sparkle in his eye as he enjoyed the discussion, the debate, the to and fro of various issues that faced us as elected representatives.

There is no question that he is a tower of history in this province and in this Legislature. Before that he was extremely well respected with his academic background, having graduated with a Masters of Law at Harvard University and with awards such as the Isbister Award and other awards that recognized his God-given intellect and intelligence that he applied successfully in his studies.

He, of course, was a member who was elected to this Chamber in 1958. He was an individual who served in the Roblin cabinet. He then later served and was elected by his party as Leader of the Opposition, and upon the change after the 1973 election, he was an individual who again was re-elected in 1977 and served in the Cabinet of Sterling Lyon prior to his move to federal politics in that contested, contested race in south Winnipeg in the 1979 election.

I know that, as a minister, and I was a kid, well, I think I was a child, I was younger then, but I know as the Minister of Industry he was often cited as an individual who was always developing good ideas for the future of Manitoba's economy and therefore the future of our Manitoba communities. It often struck me that, even with this huge and important portfolio, you would see him or know about him in the Brock-Corydon school or in the River Heights Community Club or in other parts of his constituency, being engaged with young people in the need for political representation, and the connection he had back to young people at the time in terms of his passion for politics, his passion for Manitoba and his belief in democracy and the democratic institutions that he performed in so well.

It is an interesting career, a remarkable career. It was most interesting, I think, to hear the poignant words of Bill Neville at the Shaarey Zedek Synagogue when Bill so eloquently went over the life and career of Sid Spivak, and put into context the dilemma we all have on a daily basis, and he had as an opposition leader, in trying to win the next government in the 1973 election, and stated to the congregation there of people from all political parties, people from all backgrounds, that probably Sidney's single, biggest political flaw was he was not ruthless, and therefore was not able to achieve the ultimate office in Manitoba.

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Now I hope that that is not a prerequisite for achieving this office, but I think the absolute articulation of Sid Spivak's skills, his warmth and his dignity and his respect for the civility of this place and politics was admired by all of us again that day. It gave me new insight into why I liked Sid Spivak all the years that I had a chance to have the opportunity to meet him.

I know that after his political career, he continued to serve very effectively in Canadian forums, and served very effectively in forums dealing with Jewish people here in Canada, raising money, raising support, raising scholarships, raising awareness, and also supporting the state of Israel and the people of Israel. I think today, when we have the kind of injustices of funding for the Hezbollah from a federal government, we would have Sid Spivak being very, very forceful on this injustice in terms of policy and what we should do as a Legislature and as people to make sure that there is a fairness for the people of Israel, but his words were not uncritical, not uncritical.

I recall probably the best speech I ever had a chance to read was during the Gulf War crisis and the elimination of Iraq from Kuwait. It was Sid Spivak who not only spoke about the risk and the threat of Iraq and other countries to the people of Israel, but also looked at all of us. He suggested that we in Canada who are building the arms that are being used against people like the citizens of Israel be very careful, that we cannot have it both ways. We cannot, on the one hand, arm the enemies of Israel and then condemn them when they use those arms. It was a very, very poignant speech by an individual who thought always beyond the simple borders of a debate and to the next step and to the step beyond that in terms of what it would mean.

I know that Sid Spivak was very important to the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) as a fellow caucus member, and I would note that the Member for Lakeside had some very, very important thoughts that he put on the record when we spoke in July upon the awareness that he had suddenly passed away the evening before.

I also want to say that he has a tremendous number of people that respect his life and his contributions, but because of his warmth and intellect, there are literally tens of thousands of people in this province of Manitoba who liked Sid Spivak a lot, and our warmth towards him and his wife goes way beyond the elections and re-elections and re-elections again in elected office in this Legislature, goes way beyond those kinds of electoral successes to the human successes: his ability, his absolute ability to debate sincerely, to argue successfully, but to do so always with a sense of civility and a sense of respect for different opinions and a respect for the job that we all have on behalf of the citizens we represent.

Again reflecting on the words I heard at the Shaarey Zedek Synagogue, the words of Harold Spivak at that ceremony honouring Sid's life, I think there was not a dry eye in the synagogue when Harold spoke of the love their family has for Sid Spivak as a member of their family. Again, words fail all of us, in terms of conveying our warmth to Sidney and his life, to his family. So, on behalf of the people of Manitoba, I want to thank Sidney for the life lived, to the contributions provided, to his warmth, sincerity and dignity to our Legislature and to the people of Manitoba, to the people of Canada and the people of Israel. On behalf of our caucus, I want to stand with his family, Mira, Lori, Harold and Diane, in our condolence for his life and the sadness we feel at his loss.

Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I would like to echo a comment made by the Premier that I do believe that Sidney Spivak did touch Manitobans, regardless of political stripe, and I think that is something that he will be remembered for in this Chamber and throughout the community, and, indeed, throughout the country.

I would like to, just for the record, Mr. Speaker, acknowledge that mourning Mr. Sidney Spivak are obviously his wife, Senator Mira Spivak, their three children, Lori, Harold and Diane, and spouses, Gordon McKinnon, Lesley Belows and Laurence Goldberg. I would also like to acknowledge the grandchildren: Sarah, Andrew and Daniel McKinnon, Michaela and Alexandra Spivak, Jonathan, Rebecca and Michael Goldberg. The reason that I acknowledge that group of people, Mr. Speaker, is, yes, they were his immediate family, but I think that those of us that knew Sidney Spivak knew that family was what he lived for. It was something that was very, very important to him, and I think it represented one of the reasons that he did get involved in political life, because he saw the profound impact that, as a parent, he might have on children and grandchildren. I believe he felt the same love for this city, the province and the country, and so he made the decision to be in political life.

Clearly, he was a man of great intelligence, great accomplishments. The fact that he did graduate from the University of Manitoba with the honourable Alexander Morris Exhibition prize, which is the highest standing award that you can get for four years of law, and then went on to get his masters degree in Harvard University, clearly stresses that this was a man of very high intelligence, and he used it very, very well.

In his political career, we know full well that he was elected to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba on June 23, 1966, for the Progressive Conservative Party, and he represented at that time the electoral division known as River Heights. He was re-elected in June 25, 1969, June 28, 1973, and October 11, 1977. Of course, he served very well as a Minister of Industry and Commerce from July 22, '66, to July 17, '69. He served as Leader of the Opposition from January '71 to December '75 and served in many other portfolios following his time in government.

Mr. Speaker, Sidney Spivak was someone that I would call a personal friend, somebody that I consulted with as I decided that I was going to get into elected politics. I recall numerous coffees that we would have at the Fort Garry Hotel, and he would advise me, he would cajole me, he would humour me as we went through a process of deciding what I was going to do and how I was about to seek the leadership of the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba.

Always one to look at a bigger picture, always one to recognize that, I think, he was known for, not so much what was political, but more what was doing the right thing, and so that is how he viewed the political spectrum. It was all on the basis of, not what was right for himself, not what was right, necessarily, for his party, but to stand back and say: What would be right for Manitoba? What decision could I make as the leader of a party, and if I were to be premier, what decision would I make on behalf of all the people of Manitoba?

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Mr. Speaker, I also would like to just add that Mr. Spivak had a tremendous business career, which is, I think, very interesting. He created and built Winnipeg's first major high-rise apartment, the Edinburgh House. He also was involved in creating two hotels, the International Inn and the Sheraton-Carlton motor hotel. Again, clearly, he had a high-impact role here in Manitoba, not only politically, but also on the basis of what he did in the business community.

I remember one particular discussion that I had with Sidney Spivak. He was recounting the stories of sitting, at that time advising then-Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, who was involved with the President of the United States, Mr. Bush, on the Gulf War. Mr. Mulroney's advice was always welcome from Sidney Spivak because the state of Israel played a very key role in what took place in the Gulf War. The Mulroney government, at that time, utilized Sidney Spivak's intelligence, his knowledge and his ability to reach out and understand some of the sensitive issues that would be taking place in the Middle East. He recounted that story to me. It is one of those stories about Sidney Spivak that not a lot of people know about. He was not one to go and trumpet it, but clearly he played a very, very serious role in advising the Canadian government in their role with Israel and the Middle East.

I think the one thing about Sidney Spivak that anybody that I know that talked to him is they always referred to him, and rightly so, as a mensch, because he was one, Mr. Speaker. He was one of those people that had the ability to provide a level of expertise on a lot of issues that others did not see. He was always able to rise above and see the right angle and give advice. I think it was appreciated by so many Manitobans.

Certainly their involvement in the community allowed his wife, Mira, to be acknowledged and put into the Senate of Canada. Again, you see this couple, this family, this incredible family making a contribution to our society.

You know, I always remembered with a bit of humour that Sidney Spivak said to me: Look, when you get into politics, I have to tell you one thing. You are going to get a lot of stories written about you. Do not ever, ever, ever, ever believe what the headlines say. Do not pay any attention to the headlines.

Well, Mr. Speaker, it was clear that the day after Sidney Spivak left us that one of the headlines in the newspaper said: It is a great loss. Well, perhaps that was the one time in his career that I would believe his advice was not correct, because all of us in this Chamber, all of us in this province and, indeed, all of us in the country mourn the loss of Sidney Spivak. He had a profound impact on me personally. He had a profound impact on our province and on our country. On behalf of the Progressive Conservative and our caucus, my deepest condolences go out to the Spivak family, who continue in Sidney's memory, to have a great impact, a positive impact on our community. Thank you very much.

Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me today to rise to pay tribute to Sidney Spivak, as my colleagues have, whom I consider a great Canadian and a family friend.

With his passing on July 8, 2002, Manitoba lost a community and political leader and a human being who was highly respected and greatly admired. The Jewish community, in particular, lost a lifelong supporter of Israel.

Sidney Spivak served in the late 1980s and early 1990s, as many of you know, as national chair of the Canada-Israel Committee. He also held leadership roles with the Jewish National Fund, B'nai Brith, Canadian associates of Ben Gurion University, Canadian friends of Bar Ilan University and the Canadian Council of Christians and Jews.

In the wider community, as you know, Sidney served as a board member of and raised money for a variety of cultural activities and medical institutions, including serving as president of Rainbow Stage and board member of the Manitoba Theatre Centre. He chaired the capital campaign for the University of Winnipeg and was on the Board of Governors of the University of Manitoba. He worked tirelessly for the St. Boniface Hospital on the board of governors as vice chair of the St. Boniface Research Foundation, and as chair of its finance committee. I list these because it is just incredible the work that he did in our community. I found it interesting to note that he was chair of the Winnipeg's Refugee Assistance committee, in which he was instrumental in bringing together the city to settle the Vietnamese boat people.

He learned the value of public service from his parents, community leaders Rose and Malick. As the Premier referred to, he has a Masters of Law degree of from Harvard University, and, of course, we know he pursued his career in business, politics and law. In 1971, he became the first Jewish leader of a major political party in the history of Manitoba. When he spoke at Sidney's funeral, his son, Harold, said that his father loved the game of politics and knew how to play it without rancour or personal animosity. In looking at Sidney Spivak's words in Hansard, when he was in the Legislature, I think that his words reflected his scholarship. I am told that it raised the level of debate in this House.

I would just like to share a few of his ideas. Neighbourhood improvement: We need programs of neighbourhood improvement, not the programs of the past with their bulldozers and disruption, but programs based firmly on the desire of people living in their neighbourhoods to see them improve. We would support community educational programs to teach both children and adults in all the cities of Manitoba. These programs should provide such things as basic literacy skills from adults, urban orientation for migrants from rural areas, employment training programs.

He also spoke about women's poverty and independence: More than 70 percent of those receiving mothers' allowances under our social allowances act are not widows for whom this program was intended but deserted, divorced, separated or unmarried mothers. Forty percent of all welfare payments go for mothers' allowances. That means that almost one-third of all welfare payments go to support children whose fathers are living. Let the government help those women get what they have a right to from their own spouses. His words then reflect his tremendous insight into issues.

Sidney Spivak took an interest in people, particularly young people. At one of the many family events that we shared with him over the years, I remember his warmth and compassion toward our then teenage son. It was actually a family bris. For those of you who have been to the ceremony of circumcision, you can imagine that a teenage son is not that comfortable, but Sidney shared his thoughts with Lee, and discussed Lee's hobbies and made him feel very comfortable at that event. I will always remember it.

I also remember–excuse me if I get emotional, but that is the case. I also remember spending a few hours in the Toronto Airport, in the late eighties, with Sidney. He was on his way to Israel as part of his ongoing role in the Middle East, and I was on my way to lead a workshop in Maradi Niger. He was gravely concerned about the violence in the Middle East and believed strongly that peace could be achieved. He was very passionate in this pursuit. I would like to quote Bill Neville, who was a family friend of his and Sidney's executive assistant from 1973 to 1975, and he said: To work with him was to become his friend. To be his friend meant being part of his family.

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At Sidney's funeral, Aubrey and I were very impressed, and we felt his son spoke so eloquently. I would just like to share a few of those thoughts, especially for those of you that were not able to attend. Harold said that: Our father always seemed larger than life, like a fictional hero. He was a man of great achievement who generated so much warmth and love, yet his greatest influence on us came not from witnessing his public successes, but from the strength of his personal qualities, his warmth and generosity, kindness and compassion, his great resilience and grace under pressure.

On behalf of our family, I would like to extend condolences to Mira, their three children and the extended family. Thank you.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I speak to extend condolences to Mira Spivak and other members of the family and friends of Sidney Spivak, who passed away earlier this year. I would like to pay tribute to the many contributions that Sidney Spivak made to Manitoba and to Canada and, indeed, to Israel during the course of his life. His contributions to the legal profession, in politics, to the Jewish community here in Manitoba, in Canada and in Israel, to the University of Winnipeg, to St. Boniface Hospital and the St. Boniface Hospital Research Foundation and his contributions in business and as a businessman, and a business leader, in Winnipeg.

As the MLA for River Heights, I follow in the footsteps of Sidney Spivak, who was the MLA for River Heights for 1966 until 1977, and in that time period he served in a sensitive fashion, looking after and supporting people in the River Heights community and working with young people in the area, as well as fulfilling his role as a Cabinet minister, as Leader of the Opposition and as a member of the government for two periods.

I would like, in closing, to say and acknowledge that Sidney Spivak was a man of considerable intellect, of considerable sensitivity, who will certainly be missed, and his contributions will be remembered for quite some time.

Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I would like to join members on both sides of this Chamber and extend condolences to the Spivak family this afternoon. The passing of Sidney Spivak was a great loss to all Manitobans. Several speakers this afternoon have already spoken on the life and contribution that Sidney Spivak made to our community, province and country. I will therefore keep my comments brief.

He is known as a lawyer, businessman and politician, and I would like to comment on him as a politician. I was a Canadian history teacher at River East Collegiate, and the history department had a political science club that was very active. The collegiate had tours to Québec City, Ottawa, Vancouver and other places to broaden the experience of students. The collegiate also invited various speakers to come to speak and debate issues of the day, and not necessarily always politics.

Politicians, however, were one group that was always welcome at the collegiate. Over the years, people like senators, MPs, MLAs, councillors were invited, and teachers were always careful not to be partisan in inviting speakers. Mr. Speaker, in the early 1970s, as Sidney Spivak was Leader of the Opposition, he was invited to address the student body at River East Collegiate. I just want to point out that I remember that day very well. Teachers and students were impressed with his eloquence, insight and knowledge on the issues of the day.

He was very intelligent and sensitive to youth, which is often quite difficult. Often speakers who came to the collegiate seemed to be out of tune with students or the interests of youth, but he enjoyed the meeting and debating with the youth at River East Collegiate. Youth often have their own subculture, but Sidney Spivak was able to communicate with them. He made a contribution to the political debate of our collegiate. Students can be very provocative and, at times, try to trip up the speaker, but Sidney Spivak was very adept and handled the situation very well.

Sidney Spivak was known as a scholar who raised the level of debate at the Manitoba Legislature in the same way he raised the level of debate at the River East Collegiate or wherever he went as guest speaker. Over the years, many politicians were invited to River East Collegiate, but Sidney Spivak will be remembered as one of the greatest. His visit was appreciated by students and teachers.

It is important that we pause today to pay tribute to Sidney Spivak, for all of us are richer for his contribution to Canadian life. His passing was a loss to all Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with my leader, the Premier (Mr. Doer), and others in celebrating the life of Sidney Spivak. Much has been mentioned about his career in law and in business and politics. Certainly Manitobans can be very proud and his family can be very proud of the contributions that he made.

I would like to just mention some personal times that I had with Mr. Spivak. I recall as a vice-principal at Rivers Collegiate in the early seventies, where he was touring Manitoba and stopped at the collegiate to meet with students. I had arranged for something like a hundred Grade 11 students to be on hand to listen to Mr. Spivak and have a chance to ask him questions. Much to my horror he was running a little late and it was going to run into the noon hour. I was rather concerned about this, as students jealously guard their noon hour time, but I can tell you we did get the session underway, and students in our school at that time were very polite and stayed probably till around 12:30 to listen to Mr. Spivak and have a chance to ask questions.

I was very impressed with the way that he interacted with the youth of our community. I was impressed that it was a nonpolitical interaction with the students, but it was about life in politics, about our province and our country. I was very impressed with the way he did that.

When I was Minister of Labour I had an opportunity when I introduced a piece of legislation that was passed, I think, with unanimous consent in this House, some advice that he gave me at that time, he had phoned and asked if we could sit down and talk about the legislation. I was very happy to accommodate him. We spent a little time on the legislation, which he was supportive of and, ultimately, this Assembly was supportive of. But it was the time we had talking about politics in general and the life of politicians in the 1980s and 1990s and how in fact in many ways we live in a fishbowl that takes away from our private time with our family, and that any one of us can be on the front page of the local papers with the wrong comment or the wrong actions and how we had to be mindful of those things.

I also remember spending part of an afternoon with him and Mira at West Hawk Lake, where we gathered at a cottage of some mutual friends. I recall the topic eventually got around to the use of personal watercraft on the lake. They were lamenting the fact that somebody was out earlier that day using one in a noisy fashion. Eventually I had to admit it was me, that I had never experienced one before and I discovered that I had taken it in front of their cottage a couple of times. It was not really an embarrassing time, but a time when we joked about how society was changing and that perhaps there needs to be legislation and laws to deal with new things in our society. It was a very enjoyable afternoon, and I will never forget it.

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I just want to close with one of the quotes that was reported in the media at the time of Sidney's passing when he said: I believe that the job of government and the role of a leader is to help create an environment so that people can maximize their potential as human beings. That was true in the 1970s, and I say it is still true today. Sidney Spivak is one that we would all do well to emulate.

Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, I rise today alongside our Leader and our Premier and other members in the Manitoba Legislature to say a few words to express my sincere condolences to the family of Sidney Spivak.

Sidney Spivak touched the lives of many in the Manitoba community, in the Jewish community, and, indeed, our country. On behalf of the people of Tuxedo and on behalf of my husband, Jason, my father, Hugh McDonald, and my brother and sisters, all of whom knew Sidney Spivak and the Spivak family, I want to extend my sincerest condolences to Mira and the rest of her family on their tremendous loss. Thank you.

Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt this motion?

Mr. Speaker: Would honourable members please rise and remain standing to indicate their support of this motion.

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard),

THAT this House convey to the members of the family of the late William Chornopyski, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincerest sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty and a useful life of active community and public service and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family.

Mr. Doer: I served as an opposition member in the Legislature with Bill Chornopyski, and I just want to start by saying that he was an honest, sincere individual. He was a person who had few words but deep insights into what was going on in his community, his constituency and with the people of Manitoba. He was an individual I always heeded in terms of the advice he gave informally. You get some of the best advice in this Legislature not formally but informally from each other about what our constituents are thinking, what they are concerned about and how they want us to act. Bill Chornopyski, of course, was a person who provided tremendous insights to the desires and aspirations of his constituents. I always enjoyed my time with Bill and I was very, very sorry to hear of his passing September 11 in Morris at the age of 80.

Of course, we know Bill was a veteran. He served in the Second World War with the armed forces. I certainly knew him as a person growing up in Winnipeg. He was known as a city councillor in Winnipeg, and of course he was elected in 1974 in the Mynarski ward. He defeated Slaw Rebchuk in 1977 when the boundaries were combined. He was called a giant killer for doing so. The present member of the same constituency would have the same title with him in terms of the election of 1988.

Bill became deputy mayor of Winnipeg in 1982 and was appointed to the Executive Policy Committee of the Winnipeg City Council, a very, very, important civic leader in Winnipeg and a very important part of the Council. I am sure members that served with him in City Council will have something to say about his career at City Hall. He was a member of the NDP, and he left the NDP over issues that he disagreed with. He was defeated in 1986 at City Hall, but he ran under the Liberal banner in 1988 and was elected as the MLA in the Burrows constituency.

He was hardworking in the community and the constituency and he therefore was able to take a seat that was considered not a Liberal seat, but of course none of us should assume any seat is any political party's, because we start off with any seat, zero, zero, zero, and, of course, Bill started that process in the riding of Burrows and was successfully elected. He was the opposition critic for Consumer and Corporate Affairs and for Seniors. He was the Deputy Speaker in those minority years. He retired in 1990. Certainly, I know that he was a person that was missed when he left this Chamber.

He, as I say, was an individual that fought hard for his constituents and was really in touch with his constituents. I certainly respected his life, and on behalf of our party I would like to express my condolences on the loss of Bill this September to his wife Elsie of 54 years and to their three sons and one daughter. He is a person, as I say, that contributed much, many hours to our community with his devotion at civic politics and provincial politics. I think it is safe to say that even after being elected in provincial politics that he was what we call politically aware always and very aware of what people were thinking. Again, I thank and cherish the memory of Bill Chornopyski for his contributions to our community and to our province.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I want to convey my condolences on behalf of the Manitoba Liberal Party to Elsie Chornopyski, wife of Bill Chornopyski, and to family and to friends.

Bill Chornopyski was a real people politician. He knew an extraordinary number of his constituents by name. Not only that, he tended to know much of their life history. He was kind of on the ground. When members of the Liberal caucus wanted information on what people were saying on the street, Bill was always there to contribute and knew what was being said and what needed to be done to address concerns that people were raising in the streets.

Bill Chornopyski had a remarkable career beyond his role in politics. He served in the armed forces in the Second World War. He was employed at Canadian Pacific Railway, running trades for 23 years, from 1944 to 1966. He was the master sales leader with General Motors for six years from 1966 to 1971. He owned and operated the Arlington Athletic Club from 1971 to 1973. He served as the finance chairman of Boyd Park recreation association. He served for a time as the vice-chairman of the Lord Selkirk residence advisory group. He served for a while as a member of the Seven Oaks General Hospital building fund, as a member of the Ukrainian Professional and Business Club, as a member of the Seven Oaks General Hospital Board of Trustees, as an executive member of the Ukrainian National Home, an executive member of the Ukrainian Legion Branch No. 141, a life member of the Fraternal Order of Eagles No. 23, a member of the St. Joseph's Residence board of directors, a member of St. Mary the Protectress church, a member of the Canadian German Society, and a member of the Licence Suspension Appeal Board for a time.

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His career outside of politics is also reflected in his very vigorous career in politics. He was a full-time city councillor from 1974 to 1986 and was elected deputy mayor of Winnipeg November 1st, 1982. While he was a city councillor and deputy mayor, he served on the social planning committee, on the municipal hospital board, on the parks and recreation committee, the works and operations committee, the environment committee, the zoning committee, airport study committee, subcommittee on housing, chairman of the parking authority, a member of the Winnipeg ambulance commission, a vice-chairman of the rivers and streams authority, and a member of the finance committee. Of course, he was not on all these at the same time, because he was there for quite some time, but over the period of his 12 or so years in City Council, he served in a remarkable number of capacities.

I think that the achievement that he would probably be most proud of was the fact that he introduced the Block Parents Program, in part as a crime prevention program in Winnipeg. He was the founder and executive director. By 1986 there were over 35 000 participating block parents in Winnipeg. This effort really showed his on-the-ground concern about crime prevention. His tireless efforts as part of the Block Parents Program served to, I think, emphasize the role that he played at a grassroots level in his community.

Bill Chornopyski was elected a Liberal MLA in 1988. He served as the opposition critic for Consumer and Corporate Affairs and for Seniors as well as being Deputy Speaker. He made a lively and important contribution to the Liberal caucus during those two years. I think it is certainly true that for his many and varied contributions inside and outside of politics he will be missed and he will be well remembered for all the things that he has achieved in his life.

Today we celebrate his contributions. We recognize many and significant things that he accomplished. We remember his contributions to and on behalf of many members of the family and friends who are here and indeed those who are not here. I would say that of politicians who have served in this Legislature, he is certainly one who will not soon be forgotten. Thank you.

Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I also would like to rise to add my comments to support the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Leader of the Liberal Party's (Mr. Gerrard) comments with regard to Bill Chornopyski.

I think it is interesting that he was born in Sundown, Manitoba. I believe that that is where he came to peace as well in his life near the farm that he was born on. I listened to some of the comments and the fact that he went on to be a veteran of World War II, coming back to spend some 23 years working for the CPR, obviously had a very stellar career with General Motors from 1966 to 1971, being one of their master sales leaders. I think when he became the owner-operator of the Arlington Athletic Club from '71 to '73, perhaps that was the ultimate that he saw that got him engaged to want to get into politics, because I think it was shortly after that that he became interested and got involved in politics, being a councillor elected in the Mynarski Ward in 1974.

It is very clear, Mr. Speaker, that he was involved in all levels of politics, civic and provincial. In 1982 he was elected deputy mayor of Winnipeg and appointed to the Executive Policy Committee. I do not think that anybody gets to any of those levels unless they show not only enthusiasm but a strong sense of desire and capability. Clearly, that is what Mr. Chornopyski showed to the members of City Council.

In 1988, as was mentioned, he became an elected member in the constituency of Burrows under the Liberal banner, serving under then-Liberal Leader Sharon Carstairs. He was the opposition critic for Consumer and Corporate Affairs and for Seniors and, as well, served as the Deputy Speaker.

I would say this, that by looking at the picture of Mr. Chornopyski, the comments that he was a very vibrant, very positive, very alive individual I think is recognized, Mr. Speaker, in this fabulous photograph of him, because I think it emulates the kind of spirit that he brought not only to the Legislature but, as the Liberal Leader mentioned, to the community as well.

I think that on behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party and caucus I would like to extend, again, my gratitude to the Chornopyski family and the friends who are here today in the Legislature. Clearly, this is an individual who had a very positive impact on all of the people that he touched. I know that John Angus made a comment and was quoted and said he was always so positive and hardworking.

He started the Boys and Girls Clubs and started the Neighbourhood Watch at City Council.

Again, I think these are the kinds of positive impacts that people like Mr. Chornopyski, you know, they do them at the time not because they want people to talk about them, but because they believe in them. I think Mr. Chornopyski had that kind of impact on all the people of Manitoba.

I would like to extend my condolences to the Chornopyski family, his wife of 54 years, Elsie, their three sons and their daughter. I would like to just pay tribute to the hard work that he did, the positive effort that he left with those who knew him, those who did not know him. Those were all affected in a very positive way by him. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I would like to begin by acknowledging the presence in the public gallery of Elsie Chornopyski and part of her large family and Bill's very good friend, Orest Yakimischak.

Much of the biographical information about Bill's life has already been put on the record, so I would like to add some more personal comments and observations. I first met Bill in the early 1980s when he was a city councillor. We always got along very well. In 1988, we became political opponents. Picking up on what the Premier (Mr. Doer) said, there really is no such thing as a safe seat. Many people told me that I was running in one of the safest NDP seats in Manitoba, but in spite of that–and I could tell some stories about that because my campaign manager is here in the Chamber today, but those stories are probably best left to another time and place.

But it was an important lesson that I learned from Bill. Never take an election for granted. Never assume that you have a safe seat. That was a valuable lesson. I remember going door to door. I believe it was on either Seymour or Garlies Street. Bill was on one side of the street and I was on the other canvassing during the election. I ran into one of his volunteers, who said: We just tell people at the door you are a nice guy but wrong party. That was their line at the door.

Well, Bill was successful. He won. The plurality was 109 votes, the least of any seat in that election in 1988. We both ran again in 1990, the opposite result. There was a change. Since then, Bill and I kept in touch. I have gone for coffee at his house. Also, we used to go for coffee at Eddy's Place restaurant in the North End, and he lobbied me on a health issue, not just once, but many times.

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He used to go and visit and spend time at his farm in Sundown. I sort of imagined that it was a small farm, maybe a quarter section, but I found out later that it was actually only four acres so it really was a hobby farm, but it was a source of great joy and delight for Bill. He spent many, many hours there in the summer and went there in the winter as well.

At the time that he died, I was asked by the Chornopyski family to conduct his memorial service, I guess one of the ironies of politics. It was a privilege to meet with his family at their home and to share in a time that was both sad, but also a time of telling stories and even laughter. His memorial service was very well attended, and there were at least a dozen, perhaps more, current and former city councillors and members of the Legislature including Senator Sharon Carstairs. Tributes were paid by current councillor Harry Lazarenko, long-time friend, Orest Yakimischak, former MLA Kevin Lamoureux and myself.

There were some things that everyone agreed on. That was that Bill was an extremely friendly individual to everyone whom he met, both friend and foe. He was a very likable person. It was repeatedly said at the memorial service that he was a very nice guy.

He has been survived by Elsie and family and six grandchildren and one recent great-grandson who has been named after his great-grandfather, William.

Bill is missed by many friends and by me. Once again, on behalf of all members of the Manitoba Legislature, I would like to express our condolences to Elsie and his entire family and friends.

Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): I would just like to add a few words in this condolence motion for Bill Chornopyski.

I was elected to this Legislature the same day as Bill Chornopyski, and I remember we first met in Room 254 at what is called rookie camp with the clerks to introduce us to the rules and regulations and procedures of the Legislature. Following that, Bill was made the Deputy Speaker of the House, and I was the chair of committees, or whatever it was called. It meant that if the Speaker was away and Bill was away, that I got to sit in that august chair up there.

Bill, in many ways, was just a kind and gentle man. Sometimes in question period and debates in this House, where the voices get louder and the comments maybe more pointed, Bill would rise above that and see good in everyone.

I just wanted to say that I remember him fondly from his time in the House as the Deputy Speaker and for his kind and gentle way. Thank you.

Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): I just want to add a couple of words in memory of Bill Chornopyski.

He was one of those individuals, as my colleague has just described, who was very easy to strike up a conversation with. I can remember more than once sitting at the edge of the Chamber kibitzing with him or talking more seriously as the case might have been.

He was friendly. He was easy to work with. He was dedicated to his job and, obviously, to his family and his friends. He set an example which I think a great many of us should follow.

Mr. Speaker: Would honourable members please rise and remain standing to indicate their support for the motion?

Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, we will now call second reading on Bill 4, The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment Act.

Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Caldwell) that Bill 4, The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Labour and Immigration, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services–the mover has to be in the Chair.

It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Labour and Immigration, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing that Bill 4, The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Ms. Barrett: I would like to begin my very brief comments by thanking the House for agreeing unanimously to waive the rules of the House and to allow for second reading of this bill to take place on the same day as first reading.

Basically, this bill, as I mentioned earlier, brings binding arbitration to the paramedics service in the city of Winnipeg. The discussion around this proposal has been undertaken by the City, the Government and the paramedics over the last number of years. It has been a long process, but I think at the end of this process we have seen a good piece of legislation. It brings the paramedics under the same rules as the firefighters are under and also in the same piece of legislation. It also parallels the binding arbitration provisions that the police officers in the city of Winnipeg have.

It ensures that the provision of paramedic services will not be subject to disruption due to any collective bargaining disputes that may arise because they will be under the binding arbitration provisions. We have changed the title of the act to recognize that the paramedics are under this legislation as well.

I would like to thank everyone who has worked so hard over so many years. I know it must have seemed like it was never going to happen, but it is happening, and I would like to thank the City of Winnipeg, the people in the Government and also the paramedics of the City of Winnipeg who have brought this legislation to fruition and the Legislature that is prepared to send this to committee very shortly. I appreciate the speed with which you have done that.

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): We are prepared at this time to move this bill to committee in support of our paramedics.

Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 4, The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed]

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On House business, Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is leave to instead deal with Bill 2 following the other businesses we listed earlier? Bill 2 will be dealt with last.

Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to move Bill 2 to the bottom of the list following Bill 3 as previously agreed to? [Agreed]

Mr. Speaker: We will now call the rules motion.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau)

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1(1) Proceedings in the House and in Committees are to be conducted in accordance with these Rules and–

An Honourable Member: Dispense.

Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Just a few thank yous are in order, first, most notably, to the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) for dispensing with the reading of that motion, Mr. Speaker. That would certainly have been a record for length in terms of motions, but the length of that motion also does speak, though, to the tireless work over the last several months on this modernization effort.

First of all, I want to thank the Legislative Counsel. I know the whole office has felt the demand of the priority that has been asked of this rule change. I want to thank Val Perry and Jake Harms, in particular, for their great work, and they are in the gallery today. Thank you very much.

I also want to thank the translators who have been so responsive in making the French version available and, as well, being extremely timely on changes that were made as late as today.

I want to thank the Clerk's Office and the Clerk of the Assembly, Patricia Chaychuk, for all the advice and the research, as well as the other table officers. I know they were making a lot of calls and inquiries of other jurisdictions for comparisons and were very important parts of the development of this change.

I think that the contributions of Rick Mantey and Rory Henry have to be acknowledged. They really were the ones that stick-handled this change and each and every day were devoting considerable hours to putting together the actual wording and being responsive to those in political office who were overseeing this development.

I want to commend the Member for River Heights and notably the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), as well as his colleagues. I know two of them, in particular, were instrumental in moving this change along, but I think it was what the public of Manitoba deserves, and, quite frankly, I think it is the kind of co-operative effort that they should expect. I am very pleased that we now are working together to provide for future generations of MLAs, and most importantly the public of Manitoba, a more effective rules regime for this province.

Some of the important aspects of the rules changes included a greater respect for the public, Mr. Speaker. The concerns that we have heard repeatedly and, I think, in greater number more recently about mid-summer committee hearings on bills has been addressed. As well, there have been some restrictions on late-night public hearings. The times of the year available for sittings is now set out, and I think that there is other change in the rules that speaks to the need for greater public accommodation, as well as the public understanding, as to how this sometimes complex system works.

Another theme, I think, in the rules is a better use of legislative time. We will be using Friday mornings for Budget Estimates, and bills can move during the throne and budget speeches. We are streamlining on how petitions are presented, where there is a direct interface with the public, and there is a shorter notice period. As well, there is some modernizing of the budget bill process.

As well, I look forward to how the private members' hour process will unfold. I think this gives much more power to backbenchers, to have their voices heard through private members' resolutions.

So those are some of the key themes in the development of this rule change, and I am also pleased to see that there will be a rethinking of the order of the rules in the book and a plain-language effort put into this for presentation back to the Assembly later on. But I am pleased that the collective insights of members of this House have produced this. This is not just a provisional rule change. This is permanent.

I just want to end by again commenting that there has been in the last several months a collective effort, whether one on one or through LAMC or other processes to making sure that the Legislature is modernized both in respect of conflict of interest, in respect of how MLA indemnities and allowances are determined, or whether it is just generally how we conduct our business.

So I am pleased that this is the kind of legacy that all members of this House and the House leaders and the Member for River Heights has been able to work on and contribute to the public good. Thank you.

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a couple of moments to add a few comments in relation to the revised rule package which has been moved by the Government House Leader.

The package which we are considering today is the result of many hours of work, deliberation and thought in order to strengthen the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, and I am hopeful that based upon the work that we have achieved in this package, the people of Manitoba will know that their Chamber and its procedures have been put in place to encourage and support ongoing public participation and deliberation.

There are a few areas of the package which I would like to highlight, Mr. Speaker: First, the development of the seasonal calendar. As a result of this reform, Manitoba now joins other Chambers throughout the country in adopting this type of scheduling. We have restored the rules and provisions which were put in place in 1995 and 1996 concerning the recall of the House in an emergency situation, and as a former Deputy Speaker, I am particularly pleased that through these reforms, we have been able to strengthen the role of the other occupants of the Chair in the role they play in our deliberations here in the House.

The tightening up, Mr. Speaker, of the Committee of Supply and the elimination of the Ways and Means are positive steps in facilitating timely and focussed debates on the priority areas for the people of Manitoba.

Since my election in 1990, numerous attempts have been made in order to reform the segments of Private Members' Business, and I feel that we have made real progress in this package by allowing certain amounts of these resolutions to come to a vote. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, more work is needed to be undertaken in this area, and we will endeavour to do that over the next few months. We will see how this package works on the Private Members' side, but I know that it will give a lot more opportunity for those of us on the back bench to put forward our views and have them actually be heard.

Mr. Speaker, like with all negotiations, there has been some give and take such as the case with the provisions surrounding time allocation. This is new methodology for the Manitoba Legislature and one which has powerful implications on how we debate and how things will be carried out here in the Legislature. My colleagues and I will be watching the Government very closely to ensure that the spirit and intent which these rules are based on remains and does not become a heavy hand of government. The people of Manitoba want to ensure timely consideration of matters. They do not accept and will not accept unbridled abuse of powers.

Also, the one area that we have within the rules now is on the opposition days which will be a day where the Opposition will have a resolution which is non-amendable and has to have a vote. I think it is important that we have these types of days where the Government cannot just overrule and the heavy hand of government would force an amendment upon it and change the value or what is meant by the resolution being brought forward by the opposition of the day, Mr. Speaker.

The last area I would like to touch upon relates to the new provisions for the presentations at standing committees, Mr. Speaker. We have codified the time allocations which will prevent us from probably having a half-hour to an hour-and-a-half debate every time there is a committee hearing and still ending up with five minutes and ten minutes and establishing that we will not sit beyond midnight for the first few nights anyway and, if possible, until the hearings are completed if the Government so sees. This reform will now allow the public to better understand how committees operate and what the parameters are for the committee hearings and when the committees must be called.

Mr. Speaker, the staff must be commended for drafting these provisions in plain language so that they are better understood by all Manitobans.

I would like to thank Val Perry and Jake and the rest of the staff for the work that they have done on this. I remember them all too well from when we were in government and in opposition sitting with us all the many late hours into the evening and wondering if they would have an opportunity to have holidays with their families at certain times of the year. I am hoping that this will give them the ability to better enjoy their family time because it was very uncertain the way we had it established before.

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I would also like to acknowledge the table officers, Mr. Speaker, for their assistance in providing advice for those working on the package. If it was not for the table officers I probably would not have understood a lot of what we were doing, but I was coached along for 10 years when I was the Deputy Speaker by these table officers. Let me say, if they have concerns with any of the rules package, they should only look upon themselves, because they are the ones who gave me most of the ideas that are drafted here today. So I hope everybody is happy with the system that we have now got.

I would especially like to thank my colleagues, the honourable Member for Southdale (Mr. Reimer) and the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), for their hard work and efforts. We had some very thoughtful discussions. We did not always disagree, even before we brought it to our own caucus, on certain provisions. I think what helped make this package so well received in the end was we were able to carry on debates between ourselves and the House Leader and bring forward a package that everybody was understanding.

I would also like to thank my colleague the Government House Leader and his staff Rory Henry for their assistance in making this package come together. I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the work undertaken by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Ashton), the former House Leader, Mr. Speaker, and the honourable Member for Emerson (Mr. Jack Penner) and the Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), who worked on the previous packages with us going back into the 1990s. So this was an effort that goes back into the early nineties, when we started drafting and putting a lot of this package together.

Finally, I would like to thank Rick Mantey, Mr. Speaker, for his tireless efforts in working on this package. For some of you who do not know Rick, he has been working on packages such as this one for over a decade, from inside government and from inside of opposition. Some of the provisions which we are adopting today came as a result of Rick and Rory meeting and reviewing the comprehensive drafts Rick prepared. I am very grateful for his assistance, especially seeing since he comes from the great riding of St. Norbert.

Mr. Speaker, with these few words, I would like to suggest that we put the question, well, I do believe the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) will probably have a few words to say.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to support these changes to the rules, which I have been working with my colleagues, the Government House Leader and the House Leader for the Opposition and the members of the staff for some time to produce. I am particularly pleased because a number of these changes are ones that I have been calling for for some time to provide an environment in the Legislature where there is a better ability to plan and a more sensible respect for citizens so that we do not have to have citizens presenting in committee stage after midnight.

I think these are measures which we now all support and which hopefully will provide a better framework for the operations of the Legislature and the deliberations of the Legislature. I am particularly pleased that we now have a framework for a calendar, periods which the Legislature will be sitting and periods when we know that the Legislature will not be sitting unless there is an emergency so that there is a better ability for all of us and, indeed, for people within the civil service to be able to plan their lives and to better contribute to the well-being of Manitoba. I think the measures which relate to private members' bills are a positive step and hopefully will allow better discussion and debate and consideration of private members' bills.

I would like to take a moment to thank the staff and others who worked on these measures, particularly Val Perry and Jake Harms and others who have made contributions in one way or another.

As in any package of rules and procedures, there is certain to be some learning for all of us under these new rules. We will have to see by experience how they operate. It would not surprise me if there are some areas where we will have to return and make changes in the future as we get used to this fine work of operation. I think that is something to be expected in the normal evolution of the operation of a legislature like the Legislature of Manitoba.

With these few words, Mr. Speaker, I would support these changes. I look forward to having a legislature which operates with a little bit more planning framework and a little bit more respect for citizens in committee participation.

Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

Some Honourable Members: Question.

Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is the rules motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed]

Mr. Speaker: Now we will call second reading on Bill 3, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that Bill 3, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, this is another of several attempts at modernization of how this place works. This legislation is based on recommendations from the Fox-Decent commission from, I believe, 1995, which not only looked at the indemnities, allowances and other remuneration paid to MLAs in Manitoba but as well considered what kind of process should be put in place for the future. While somewhat belatedly, we now have turned our mind to those recommendations and have, by and large, adopted those recommendations from Mr. Fox-Decent.

I know it has been a criticism by the public from time to time that MLAs are perceived to be padding their pockets or setting their own pay scales based on their own sense of their needs. So I know the legislation brought into this House in '93 to establish the Fox-Decent commission was an early attempt to change that perception and deal in a fair and more transparent way with MLA remuneration issues.

So I am thankful to the Fox-Decent commission, in particular Mr. Wally Fox-Decent for turning his mind to that and to his recommendations. I know we all have differing views on some of those recommendations. By and large, we thought it was important to defer as much as possible to that independent voice, that being the commission, in creating this legislation.

This legislation, Mr. Speaker, takes out of The Legislative Assembly Act the old Fox-Decent commission establishment and parameters and puts in there a permanent system for the future so that there is a fair, independent way of recommending to this Assembly what the benefits and levels should be.

We all, I am sure, individually might have ideas about what particular pay levels might ideally be, but the whole message here is that is something that should be decided by someone who is not of this Chamber and who the public can trust is going to apply fair analysis to a recommendation. Now, Mr. Fox-Decent did recommend that the Assembly not abrogate or not walk away from its ultimate responsibility of making a decision on remuneration for MLAs. He did so in a principled way. He said that there has to be public accountability for the ultimate decision. So this Legislature is saying that it will be accountable, but it has adopted Mr. Fox-Decent's recommendation that the package has to be accepted in whole or not at all.

I want to thank the representatives from the other parties, in particular the Member for St. Norbert and the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) and, as well, so many others that have been involved, including Legislative Counsel. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, I also neglected to recognize your role in the development of the rules process. I think that is very important, because of course those rules are what you are obliged to enforce.

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I conclude my remarks by looking forward to seeing this move ahead. I look forward to what I anticipate will be some enhanced public perception, recognizing that the issue of MLA pays are inherently controversial, but I think that this is a good step forward and I think will enhance the role of this Legislature in a modern democracy. Thank you.

Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I speak briefly on this bill just to indicate that this area being covered here is not always an easy area for legislatures to deal with. The recommendations provide a framework which we will just have to wait and see and hope that it works in a reasonable fashion and a responsible fashion. Clearly, the final responsibility will, under this legislation, rest with the Legislature, but the quality and the decision by the Legislature will clearly depend on having very good advice from the independent decision or recommendations coming from the commissioner.

I think it is also important and hopefully we will have some members of the public come forward at the committee stage, because, at this point, there is still the opportunity for input, and there is the potential for amendment if people consider that there are things that could be improved.

I would just say that I look forward to any such presentations and the future progress of this legislation as it goes through to committee stage and to third reading.

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I must say this is an issue that has been worked on over a large number of years again. Back in '95 when the Wally Fox-Decent report was put together, it was a good plan and a good process and Mr. Wally Fox-Decent recommended that it come back every four years. Because it is a sensitive issue and it is an issue that governments do not always want to deal with, it is important that it be codified so that it be called automatically after each election. That is one of the transparencies that appears here to have made a lot of improvement to the process.

Prior to '95, it had been almost 20 years before any adjustments had been made in certain areas of the benefits package or with the way MLAs were taken care of. There was a lot of discrepancy that had to be taken up in a short period of time. There was some public anxiety over having ministers' salaries go from $15,000 to $25,000. The ministers' salaries are still today way under what they are in any other province of Canada. That is why it is important that you take a review on a more regular basis so that you do not fall too far behind and then have to try and make it all up in one year. That is what makes it more sensitive as the years go by. That is why it is important that we use the recommendation from Wally Fox-Decent and have the commissioner look at this every election. I am very happy with the process that we have been through and I am supportive of the bill that is before the House today.

Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

Some Honourable Members: Question.

Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is Bill 3, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education (Mr. Lemieux), that Bill 2, The Civil Remedies Against Organized Crime and Liquor Control Amendment Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to present this bill to the Legislature. I know we discuss the bill in detail at committee stage, but there are some key points I would like to bring to the attention of honourable members.

Mr. Speaker, organized crime has become an increasing problem in most Canadian provinces and indeed around the world, and organized crime groups have now begun branching out into the operation of seemingly lawful businesses, for one. The Government of Manitoba believes that it is necessary to take action against these activities as best we can and grow a hostile environment for organized crime in order to prevent criminal activity from taking place in our province.

Part 1 of this bill is a crime prevention initiative which is intended to provide additional tools for the police to use against businesses that are controlled by members of criminal organizations or that are used for unlawful purposes. Police will be able to apply to court to cancel provincial tax licences needed to operate those businesses and obtain other types of orders that can be used to stop them from operating.

The legislation also provides police with the ability to apply for a court order to restrain the activities of persons who conspire to commit unlawful acts that cause harm to the public and can claim damages for the harm that has resulted from their actions.

The new legislation will enable the police to apply to a court to cancel liquor licences of businesses controlled by members of a criminal organization or that are used for unlawful purposes.

Part 2 of the bill will amend The Liquor Control Act to permit the court to issue an order that will prohibit the delivery, storage, consumption or sale of alcohol on the premises of those businesses.

The proposed legislation will also amend The Liquor Control Act to make the wearing of gang colours in a beverage room or other licensed premises a provincial offence. The presence of gang colours can create an atmosphere of hostility between rival groups, which can escalate into violence in premises where alcohol is being sold and consumed. The new provincial offence of wearing gang colours in a licensed premises is intended to prevent those dangerous situations from taking place.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I look forward to having a discussion with opposition members and members of the public at committee. I want to commend many people that have made this effort possible. There are people in the department who have been working very hard to construct legal remedies within provincial jurisdiction, and the result is the remedies set out in the legislation.

I will simply add that I am particularly interested in seeing the potential unfold of those civil remedies that allow court orders to prevent against unlawful activity. That part of the bill, recognizing there are four main parts of this bill, is based, in large part, on Ontario legislation that has not yet been enforced or dealt with in the courts, but it is also based on the experience of what is called civil gang abatement legislation south of the border. I have a keen interest in seeing how that can develop, but I think this is a start and a good start to the greater use of civil remedies against organized crime, recognizing that The Fortified Buildings Act was also that breed of legislation and also building, of course, on the safer communities legislation that is now reaping some rewards in neighbourhoods of Winnipeg. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): I take this opportunity just to put a few brief comments on the record with respect to Bill 2. I would like to thank the minister for his efforts in ensuring that he direct staff to draft this important legislation and taking the time to ensure that all the possible bases are covered in terms of trying to meet the constitutional requirements of the province.

I believe that this bill really has come as a reaction to a crisis that was fueled by media reports of the Hells Angels retail outlet in Winnipeg. Because of that, I believe that the minister, in fact, was boxed in because of the fact that the retail outlet was just down the street from his constituency office. So, of course, he would have a concern in terms of trying to deal with this kind of situation.

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First of all, I like the title of the legislation. It says The Civil Remedies Against Organized Crime and Liquor Control Amendment Act. It gives, I think, one a warm feeling of action that is to be taken. I think that having said that, the NDP, of course, the members opposite, the Government, thinks that they are tough on crime. I think this bill proves that in fact they are not tough on crime, but I think they are soft on crime. I believe that the legislation is toothless.

I like the title. As I said, it gives a warm and fuzzy feeling, but I am not sure that it does meet the test of what is required out there. I believe it has got very little substance, but I can tell you that my personal feeling is that anything is better than nothing at this point. As a result of that, I can tell you that our side of the House will be supporting this bill. We will of course, though, still have the responsibility, and we will try to ensure that we take measures to ensure that the public is aware of the inadequacies of the bill and perhaps even introduce amendments to the bill at the committee stage to widen the net to ensure, first of all, I think, that members of criminal organizations are more appropriately targeted, and, secondly, we hope to introduce some amendments so that the remedies for the province in fact are more appropriate with respect to criminal organizations.

We will also be, hopefully, shortly introducing a private member's bill for debate in order that criminal organizations can be more appropriately targeted. We would urge the Government to in fact look at our private member's bill and perhaps even incorporate some of the provisions that are in there to help target criminal organizations in the province.

First of all, with respect to Bill 2, the bill proposes really three main grounds to make an application to a judge. Under the one ground I refer to as the Hells Angels provision, it is a provision that allows someone to make an order or the police chief to make an order, to apply for an order against a member of a criminal organization who owns or manages businesses. In that respect, if they make that application they can cancel licences. They can cancel licences under five acts as specified in that legislation: The Gasoline Tax Act; The Liquor Control Act; The Motive Fuel Tax Act; The Tobacco Tax Act; or The Retail Sales Tax Act for the business.

So that is our answer to the Hells Angels, as I see it, in this legislation. My concern is that this piece of legislation, this answer, this section is much too narrow in its scope. It specifies in the section that in fact only members of criminal organizations are targeted. As I am aware, as I understand, the Hells Angels retail store in Winnipeg in fact is not owned or managed by a member of a criminal organization. So this provision is not going to do anything as regards the Hells Angels store in Winnipeg. As I understand, it is owned or managed by, in fact, a brother of a member of the Hells Angels. So, really, by the very definition of what we are trying to accomplish, this section is not going to accomplish anything.

Secondly, even if the Province could prove that he was a member of a criminal organization, I believe that, first of all, you are only cancelling licences under five acts of the Province. That is all you are doing. You are doing nothing more than that in that provision. In other words, you are prohibiting members of criminal organizations from selling liquor in a restaurant, a lounge, a beverage room, selling fuel in a gas bar, selling tobacco in a retail outlet or selling goods in a retail store requiring a retail sales tax licence. That is all you are doing.

I believe the members opposite are soft on members of criminal organizations because by implication it is now acceptable for a member of a criminal organization to own or manage service industries and other businesses such as legal firms, accountant and investment firms, counselling services and businesses, engineering firms, consulting businesses, private schools and even towing companies and any other business that is not licensed by those five acts. Why do we not just advertise across the country that if you are a member of a criminal organization, that you are welcome to establish a business in the service industry in Manitoba? Is this the answer for economic development in Manitoba? I do not think so.

This legislation may actually encourage businesses in Manitoba by members of criminal organizations. I believe if members opposite were tough on organized crime, the remedy would be more than simply cancelling licences under those five acts. I think what is important from this legislation is to determine what, in fact, is allowed when looking at this section, not what is not allowed. I would urge members of the media and members of the public to look at this carefully in terms of the effect and whether, in fact, we are just saying we are tough on crime and not acting tough on crime.

Another area that is involved within this bill includes a provision that if anyone owns or manages a business that is being used to advance an unlawful activity, it says the judge can actually cancel those licences under those five acts again, can seize property, evict people from the premises and seize assets and actually takes the funds from the sale of those assets and use it for provincial purposes. Sounds good, sounds really good except when you look into the provision itself.

"Advance an unlawful activity" is not defined in the act. I believe that a restricted interpretation will be used to, in fact, restrict that business from carrying on unlawful activities such as businesses that steal cars and resell the parts. All it will do is restrict businesses from carrying out unlawful activities. I recommend that there be a definition included in the bill with respect to that provision, "advance an unlawful activity," and they should include businesses that are otherwise legitimate businesses but that provide funds to or support criminal organizations.

The operative part of this section is unlawful activity. The business must be involved in the unlawful activity. It is really in my view a toothless provision. It already exists in the common law. We are stating the obvious. You mean to tell me that we cannot stop someone from doing an unlawful activity today? Yes, we can. We do not need this provision to do that.

There is also an inherent jurisdiction of the court to do just as the legislation is proposing. By introducing this part in the legislation, members opposite want us to believe that it is now not against the law to do an illegal and unlawful activity and that it is not against the law to break the law. That is what they are saying in this provision. It is already against the law to do illegal activities. I believe this part of the bill merely states the obvious. We already have laws which, if broken, become criminal activity. If they are broken, the courts have jurisdiction to do any and all of the remedies suggested in this part. It is really redundant legislation and, I think, unnecessary legislation.

This provision will not affect the Hells Angels store unless it is specifically set up to establish to do an unlawful activity, and it is not an unlawful activity, at this point, to sell motorcycles or motorcycle parts or service them or to sell T-shirts. They will not be caught by this provision, and it is highly doubtful whether this part of the legislation, as I said, will, in fact, affect the Hells Angels store in any way.

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Another section, the third part of this bill, allows a judge to restrain the activities of anybody who conspires to engage in unlawful activity, and it goes on to say that injury to the public has to be proven or likely to happen as a result of that. This, as I see it, is the Government's answer to gang abatement. I can tell you that the Criminal Code already deals with conspiracy. It is already against the law to conspire to engage in an unlawful activity or an illegal act. It already is. The problem is that, under the Criminal Code, the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. It is a high standard of proof, and I note that the minister, in fact, has put in, as part of the test for this provision, that the proof can be proven to a balance of probabilities. That is a good move in terms of the ability of the Crown to actually prove that the act took place.

However, it is a two-part test. First, you have to prove conspiracy on the balance of probabilities, and then, secondly, you have to prove injury to the public, either that the public is injured or will be injured or will likely be injured. My question is: Why should it be a test that the injury to the public will result or has resulted? I believe it should be enough just to prove conspiracy to engage in unlawful activity and that, in fact, should result in charges under this legislation.

The remedy, I have a concern with under this section. The remedy is simply to restrain the activities of the conspirators. Is that enough? Who will realistically be able to enforce it? There should be fines or imprisonment available as a deterrent, not restraint with no further penalty. All we have is restraint. There is no deterrent to reoffend or offend. How will this prevent the formation of gangs and the continuance of gangs? Restraint, I do not feel, is a deterrent to crime.

The bill indicates, as well, that only a police chief can enforce and bring an action under this act. The justification is that so that neighbours do not prosecute other neighbours whom they dislike or so that they do not take actions against legal but unpopular businesses like abortion clinics and adult video stores and so on. I do not believe, though, that this should be an excuse. We currently do not prevent private prosecutions, prosecutions of criminal actions by one private person against another one when the law enforcement authorities refuse to prosecute. We do not prevent that under criminal law, so why would we prevent the general public from exercising their right to their day in court if they can prove their case? Is this not a typical reaction of government, power in the hands of the Government because the Government thinks that it, itself, and its employees know best? I believe that allowing anyone to bring an action puts power into the hands of the community where typically the offending business or the gangs are living. Why should the community not be able to protect itself if it wants to? Why should the community not be allowed to preserve its property values and its community identity? It takes years for a community to build up a reputation as a good place to live, a good place to work and to raise children, but it only takes minutes to ruin a community's reputation.

Another part of this bill amends The Liquor Control Act to forbid gang colours in any licensed premises. My concern with that is that this only forbids gang colours in premises deemed under The Liquor Control Act, licensed restaurants, bars, beverage rooms, lounges and so on. Why would the Government stop here? Is it now acceptable to wear gang colours in schools or shopping centres, non-licensed restaurants, supermarkets, schools? Is it now acceptable to do that? Why would they stop simply at bars?

In fact, I refer to an article written by Frank Landry in the Winnipeg Sun just the other day. He quotes the Finance Minister (Mr. Selinger) as saying the feeling is wearing gang colours can incite violence. It is simply to address keeping the peace in these kinds of places. That was his comment on this provision. Does the Finance Minister believe that violence is incited only in liquor-licensed establishments?

We can limit smoking in public places. There is no problem with jurisdiction. Yet we only stop gang colours in bars and beverage rooms. I think by implication this Government is treating gangs better than law-abiding smoking citizens, and I think that has to be looked at.

I believe that this bill should be wider. I believe that this bill, in fact, should give communities and municipalities perhaps even the power to pass by-laws to prohibit or restrict members or even associates of criminal organizations from carrying on a business and from businesses that advance the interests of the criminal organization.

I think we have to empower the community, not just the police chief, but we have to empower the community. I think that is what happened in New York City with Mayor Giuliani. He empowered the community, and that is how he got rid of a lot of the crime that was in that city.

This bill, I think, should give municipalities the authority to pass by-laws to deal with residences or meeting places for members of criminal organizations. We should have a community-based solution. It should be a community-based initiative because it strengthens communities. It strengthens communities and it strengthens people within those communities. We should allow the members of any community to enforce the provisions, and using by-law enforcement, a by-law can be enforced, in fact, by the Court of Queen's Bench by an action not only brought by a municipality or a planning district or a minister, but also by the general citizens and the RCMP and the Winnipeg City Police. It would be a community-based solution. The community should take ownership and the community should take control over their own community. They should have the authority to enforce the provisions of this kind of legislation.

Some might say, well, people ignore by-laws, but I can tell you that anyone who fails to comply with a by-law, in fact, can be liable for fines up to $1,000 a day for an infraction. If you are a corporation, it is up to $5,000 a day for an infraction or imprisonment for up to six months. In many respects, the penalties under by-law infractions are harsher than under Bill 2.

In addition to that, a Court of Queen's Bench judge can order an injunction against a person or a criminal organization, and the order of the Court of Queen's Bench judge can be enforced. The contravention of the by-law can be restrained by the judge. An injunction can be actually issued to remove people from premises, remove business owners and managers from businesses, remove people from their homes if necessary. An order can be made to seize assets from the organization, and even a breach of that order can result in additional substantial fines and even a jail term.

There is teeth to the enforcement of a bylaw, and there are certainly substantial fines or other penalties available to encourage compliance. That is one of the complaints we heard from the City of Winnipeg when the Hells Angels moved in, in fact, that they did not have the legislative authority to deal with a business like that. My view is we should give them that legislative authority.

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The focus to the law should be to permit municipalities to take a proactive approach to crime, not a reactive one. Businesses require occupancy permits, and if at the time they apply for such a permit, a municipal officer, if he knows, or she knows, that the application is made by a criminal organization or a member of that criminal organization or even an associate, they can deny that occupancy permit. The problem can be solved before it starts, before an enforcement authority or the general public needs to take action. I believe that kind of legislation would be proactive legislation, not reactive.

Of course, to enact, give power to municipalities, you would have to actually amend a number of pieces of legislation passed by the Province, which would include The Municipal Act, The Planning Act and The City of Winnipeg Charter. I believe those acts could be amended effectively to give authority to municipalities and communities to take action, and you can take action in one of three ways, I believe.

First of all, you can attack businesses by allowing municipalities to pass a bylaw to prohibit or regulate the carrying on of business by a person who is a member or an associate of a criminal organization of the business and whose business it is to promote the criminal organization itself or to advance the interests of the criminal organization. The Government's bill simply takes action against members of criminal organizations, as I mentioned before, not associates. As a result, I believe, that bill will in fact not have any teeth as regards that Hells Angels store that I think the Government is targeting with this legislation.

Secondly, we can attack those who are members or associates of a criminal organization by prohibiting or regulating two or more members or associates of that organization from using or building as a residence or even using the building or land as a meeting place. An exception to those last two actions could be allowing them, of course, to use buildings or land for penitentiaries and custodial facilities where inmates are kept in custody or are there for rehabilitation.

A provision like this, I think, will ensure that those who are members of a criminal organization and who are using a business as a front for illegal and unlawful activity and those who are using buildings for residences or meeting places are prohibited from doing so. It would prohibit these people from getting together in organizing illegal and unlawful activities. It would provide a community-based approach whereby members to every community can participate to keep their community safe and free from criminal activity by criminal organizations.

Criminal organizations have no role to play in society, and they serve no purpose to society. Society cannot and should not tolerate these kinds of organizations and the kinds of activities they are involved in.

I agree with an article that was written by Harry Lehotsky on December 1 and which was covered by The Winnipeg Sun. In that article he described the process under The Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act and agreed with the concept in that act which allows courts to evict people, board buildings and shut down buildings where there is drug use and dealing where there is prostitution, where there is the unlawful sale of liquor and intoxicating substances. In fact, the Minister of Justice's (Mr. Mackintosh) news release on November 26 of this year praised the legislation as being effective to shut down drugs, sniff and prostitution houses. Harry Lehotsky in his commentary mentioned that if these elements of society get kicked out of enough houses and are forced to move, they will eventually get tired of being hassled everywhere and decide to change their way of living, or they will become careless during the course of their many moves and be charged with some sort of criminal offence. I agree with that statement, and I believe that legislation has been effective.

The proposal that I mentioned, in terms of communities taking ownership for their community, I believe, is not a lot different from The Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act in terms of its principles and in terms of its effect on criminal organizations, except, of course, that those provisions would be much broader in its scope.

I commend, though, the Minister of Justice for introducing this legislation, although I would have liked, and I believe Manitobans would have liked, to have had it introduced earlier. I have some constructive suggestions for changing the legislation, which would make it much more effective, and those changes and the approach that I suggest is not contradictory to the approach taken by the minister by this bill. I suggest a change to the approach because I would like to inform Manitobans that those changes and that approach is actually contained within my private members' bill, which I plan to introduce tomorrow in first reading in this Legislature. During the committee stage, I will be introducing an amendment to the Government's bill, which will hopefully improve the effectiveness of this bill. I would hope that the minister takes notice of that amendment and in fact passes it.

Nonetheless, it is my wish and the wish of our caucus to move this bill forward to committee and toward rapid passage because we believe that this bill, while it is inadequate at this point, will inevitably improve the situation that we are in today. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take just a few minutes to put some comments on record concerning this very important issue here in the province of Manitoba. I have to commend my colleague for some of the comments that he made previously because they were comments that would enable the Manitoba public to understand that we need to be addressing the idea of organized crime here in Manitoba.

This present Government, Mr. Speaker, is three years into its mandate. We are past the second anniversary of the Hells Angels coming into town, and still nothing has been done. I must commend the Justice Minister (Mr. Mackintosh) for this attempt at trying to get something on the books that would give tools to police departments to enable them to shut down businesses that are under the umbrella of organized crime.

Mr. Speaker, when we take a look at this bill, although it is in the beginning stages of something that should have been done at least two years ago, it is a start now. I commend the Justice Minister for this, but when we look at what has happened three years into the mandate, when we look at what has happened on the streets of Winnipeg since the present Government came into power, it is nothing short of alarming, shoot-outs on the streets, the Juristat showing we are the highest violent crime rate in all of Canada, Hells Angels walking the street, even having the boldness to set up shop just down the street from the Justice Minister's constituency office. There is a message here that is coming forward that is all too prevalent when organized crime comes into any town.

We talk about bullying. This is a bullying attempt on the population of Winnipeg and Manitoba to make a presence known that we do not need. Having said that, it is under the responsibility of the current Government to get tough on crime, to get tough on organized crime. The past three years have shown quite clearly that there have been numerous press releases, numerous photo ops, and yet the violent crime still continues to be at its highest level here in Manitoba as compared to the rest of Canada.

Mr. Speaker, finally the present Government has been forced to take some sort of a stand. It took the Hells Angels shop actually moving into downtown Winnipeg less than two blocks away from the current minister's office to force this legislation to be put on the books, to be put on the agenda docket.

Now, Mr. Speaker, having said that, under section 3, as my colleague so eloquently explained a few minutes ago, a member of a criminal organization who owns or manages a business may have their licence cancelled under The Gasoline Tax Act, The Liquor Control Act, The Motive Fuel Tax Act, The Tobacco Tax Act or The Retail Sales Tax Act for business.

I would agree with my colleague that this is far too narrow in its scope. The NDP or the current Government is prohibiting members of criminal organizations from selling liquor in a restaurant, lounge or beverage room, selling fuel in a gas bar or selling tobacco in a retail outlet or selling goods in a retail store requiring a retail sales tax licence, but, however, it is not acceptable for a member of a criminal organization to own or manage a business here in the city of Winnipeg or, I daresay, here in the province of Manitoba.

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We have had unprecedented examples of police intimidation by criminals and members of organized crime here in the courts in our city of Winnipeg. For the first time in the history of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, we have had a fire bomb land in a home of a police officer. We have had recounted stories of gangs and gang colours being in the courtrooms and intimidating police officers as gang trials are going on.

Mr. Speaker, this is no time for soft legislation. This is a call to arms. This is a war against organized crime, and members on both sides of the House have to participate in that war. It is not a political statement that this legislation is too soft. It is a fact, and what we need to do is take the beginnings of what has happened here in this Legislature and make it stronger. I concur with my colleague from Lac du Bonnet who has given some very, very pointed and very useful suggestions to strengthen this legislation.

So I would implore members opposite to rise above the political agendas and combat organized crime with a team effort from members on all sides of this House. It is part of opposition to look at legislation. It is part of opposition to red-flag where members on this side of the House see weakness. It is an obligation of a governing body, such as the present Government, to be listening to these red flags and to be working together to strengthen legislation that will do one thing, and that is eliminate organized crime on the streets of Winnipeg.

Organized crime goes beyond the restaurants, goes beyond the licensed liquor places, goes beyond places where you might expect to see gang members. It goes into homes. I was aware of an incident two weeks ago where there was a party with some young people at a residence in the southern part of Winnipeg, and some people wearing gang colours and known members of a known associate gang here in Winnipeg showed up at the party. They showed up at the party because they had a bone to pick with a young gentleman who was dating the gang member's former girlfriend. Subsequently, they took this young gentleman out, and he was beaten and left on the ground. This was done in a very arrogant manner. This was commonplace. When we hear about shooting on the streets, when we hear about things happening close to home, when we hear about an everyday occurrence for gang activity happening here in Winnipeg, it becomes alarming that people are not shocked by it now. Manitobans are still shocked about the inability of this present Government to get tough on crime.

There are numerous examples here in the province of programs that have been started, programs that have been announced, programs that have been touted as being programs that will overcome crime and make the streets safe. When we look very closely, we find there is no substance. We either find there are few staff members involved in the initiatives, or we find that there is not sustainable funding to make sure that this crime prevention initiative occurs. Now here today, we are looking at the civil remedies against organized crime and liquor control act amendments, and, once again, we see the same picture.

Unfortunately, we see a very hollow picture, because this hollow picture does not address the fact that unlawful organizations have the ability to continue setting up shop a couple of blocks down from the Justice Minister's (Mr. Mackintosh) office. It does not address the fact that organized crime will be thwarted. The kinds of information that my colleague has just reiterated, I will not go over piece by piece, but in the sections that he talked about, I would ask that the Justice Minister take very careful note, because tomorrow there will be another act presented here in the House that could do a lot to enhance the present bill before us this afternoon, that could do a lot to strengthen the present bill.

I have to say that part 2 under section 4, anyone who owns or manages a business that is being used to advance an unlawful activity, a judge can require the person to cease owning or managing the business; it is my understanding that if there is a known, unlawful activity happening right now today, police can investigate. That is people breaking the law. So that is a very soft part of the bill because it is very redundant and it is already in place here in the province of Manitoba. Under section 5, a judge can make an order under this bill to restrain the activities of anyone who is conspiring to engage in an unlawful activity.

I agree with my colleague. It should be enough just to prove conspiracy to engage in unlawful activity. When we talk about tough laws, I think that the present Justice Minister's (Mr. Mackintosh) tough-on-crime approach rings hollow. Let us take a look at what are the remedies. What is the remedy for all this gang activity? Well, let us take a look at what it says. There can be fines or deterrents or maybe simply restraint. The penalties have to be an awful lot tougher than that. In fact, why is it here in Manitoba that an infraction that is so serious by gang members is taken so lightly when, in actual fact, it is known that once Hells Angels and organized crime get a foothold in any city, we have an increase in gang activity? We have an increase in violent crime. We have an increase in drugs and we have an increase in prostitution.

There is no good thing about organized crime. Organized crime is not a business. Organized crime is crime and it hurts people. It makes people afraid on the streets. I know a couple of weekends ago when I was in Ottawa, I was noting that you could walk the streets in downtown Ottawa and feel quite safe. Here in Winnipeg, it is very difficult to walk the downtown streets at night because, in actual fact, you do not feel safe.

Having said that, there are other things that have to be addressed in this bill. The bill indicates that only a police chief may take an action under this act, and as my colleague explained, this is presumably so neighbours do not persecute one another when they dislike someone.

Mr. Speaker, being too soft on criminal activity gives licence for the present Government to make a whole lot of excuses as to why they should not have more engagement in the eradication of organized crime. Police chiefs have a lot of things on their plate. Police chiefs look after a police force that is on the ground, on the streets every day, dealing on a day-to-day basis. Police officers can go down a street; they know who belongs to what. They know who is involved in the crimes. They are often watchful because you often have repeat offenders.

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Having said that, restricting the bill so that a police chief only can bring an action is, I must say, shortsighted and unrealistic. I would implore the present Government to take a second look at this section and make sure that the police officers and other people in the community can become involved in it, as well. I believe that anyone, any citizen should be allowed to bring an action forward, empowers the public as a whole. In many cities, like Chicago, like New York, many big cities that have had a great deal to say about organized crime and a great deal to combat in organized crime clearly have engaged with the community and with the public. I say that with this bill, although I must commend them for a beginning, for a start, I would say that strengthening this bill is of paramount importance. Having said that, organized crime here in the city of Winnipeg and province of Manitoba definitely has no place.

Mr. Speaker, police have to have tools, citizens have to have tools, and this attempt to have a remedy within a provincial jurisdiction that has no teeth, has no thump, will virtually go no place. It will not prohibit anything from happening. It will not prohibit gangs from growing and being active on the streets.

Having said that, I think it is unfortunate that political pressure pushes governments, any government to take action. Rather, it should be service to community and awareness that every citizen in Winnipeg and in the province of Manitoba has a right to be safe, has a right to walk the streets, has a right to feel as if they can grow and build business and live in communities where they are unafraid. We hear more and more again, as I said, of the increased gang activity, the increased drug trade, the increased violent crime throughout this city and throughout this province.

Having said that, I would once again implore members opposite, I commend once again, the fact that this is a beginning, that there is something on paper that does attempt to come up with some provincial jurisdiction that will address organized crime and businesses growing under organized crime in Manitoba. However, I would ask them to take under advisement the kind of comments that were made today, not as a criticism, but as a helpful tool, where we can work together as partners, members on both sides of the House, to ensure that organized crime is eliminated from the streets of Winnipeg, from our stores, from our schools.

The gang colours are very intimidating to citizens. They are very intimidating to youth, and the point that my colleague made about gang colours being present in schools, being present on the streets, being present in far more places than just bars or wherever, gas stations, this kind of thing, they are all over and gang colours signify gang presence.

So I would ask that this particular bill be strengthened, be extended and, again, that we can work in partnership to allow this to happen and that tomorrow when the subsequent bill is brought forward that allows for new initiatives in this area, I would ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) to take a very careful look at it and see if there is something in there that can help and enhance the present bill as put before us right now. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

Some Honourable Members: Question.

Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is The Civil Remedies Against Organized Crime and Liquor Control Amendment Act.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed]

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On house business, Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet on Monday, December 9, at 10 a.m., to deal with the following bills: Bill 2, Bill 3 and Bill 4.

Mr. Speaker: It has been announced that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet on Monday, December 9, 2002, at 10 a.m., to deal with the following bills: Bill 2, The Civil Remedies Against Organized Crime and Liquor Control Amendment Act; Bill 3, The Legislative Assembly Amendment Act; and, Bill 4, The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment Act.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is it the will of the House to call it six o'clock, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to call it six o'clock? [interjection]

I have to ask again because I thought I heard a no.

Is it the will of the House to call it six o'clock? [Agreed]

The time being six o'clock, this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Thursday).