Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Mr. Luc Devolder, the Consul-General of Belgium to Canada.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, we have raised numerous questions in this House about waiting lists in terms of specialists. But nothing can cause people more concern than when you see children in this province having to wait an extensive period of time for important medical treatment.

One of those children is a four-year-old, Kaela Kostiuk, who is here today accompanied by her mother, Miranda, and by Dwayne Hain. She has been attempting to access the services of a pediatric ophthalmologist. In terms of ophthalmology in this province, there is only one specialist. It takes upwards of six months for someone even to get a check-up to see this doctor who is performing a tremendous workload in terms of dealing with this.

Indeed, I would like to ask the Minister of Health when this government will take action to ensure that children like Kaela will not have to wait those extensive periods of time for this very important surgical procedure to deal with, in this case, a chalazion that does affect very much her eyesight.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I am certainly prepared to look into this individual situation. I think, as the member for Thompson knows, we have been dedicating significant resources to reduce waiting lists in many areas in Manitoba. Today, when you look at our province in a relative sense to the other provinces in Canada, many of the surveys that are being done, Manitoba does stack up very well on an overall basis in terms of the period of waiting time, whether it be for diagnostic testing or other services.

But I certainly will look into this particular situation. As the member for Thompson knows, this budget alone includes significant additional funding for health. A significant amount of that funding is going to address that very important issue of reducing waiting lists in various areas and certainly in areas where it affects children in Manitoba, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Ashton: I would like to ask a further question and that is what specific action the Minister of Health will take, given the very real concern that the one doctor that is performing this, Dr. Shuckett, has often indicated, in fact he has indicated publicly that he feels harassed by the pressure, being the only doctor in Manitoba handling these types of cases and wonders what would happen if he were to get seriously sick. What specific actions will the Minister of Health take to make sure that children in this province will have access to this surgical procedure?

Mr. Stefanson: First of all, Madam Speaker, I will start by following up on the specifics that the member has brought to this House today, because the reality has been in some other cases, when we have talked about some other services, the information has not been entirely accurate. But having said that, I do take his concern that he is raising here today very seriously and I will follow up on it immediately.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I would like the minister to meet with the family afterwards, who have taken a courageous step, I might say, of going public on behalf of many other families in that situation.

As a final supplementary, I would like to appeal to the minister if he would not agree that instead of spending $500,000 on the medical–the campaign they have right now, the ads which are really something that should be paid for by the Conservative Party, would it not be better to put that $500,000 towards patient services, providing surgical services to four-year-olds like Kaela.

Mr. Stefanson: On this, Madam Speaker, this budget alone, the 1999 budget, includes an additional $194 million, bringing our health care spending in Manitoba to an all-time record level of $2.1 billion to address these types of issues. Again, I am repeating what I said yesterday, I am assuming that that is one of the reasons that the member for Thompson and his colleagues voted for our 1999 budget because we have dedicated the resources to address these very important issues. Waiting lists overall in Manitoba are coming down and they are coming down significantly. We have seen all kinds of improvements in our health care system, more personal care home beds, more home care programs and a number of initiatives. And again, that is why I think they supported our budget. In terms of the very specific issue that he raises here today, I take that very seriously and I will follow up on it immediately.

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Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, my questions are also for the Minister of Health. Last year the head of the Manitoba pediatric society sounded alarm bells about the shortage of children's specialists in Manitoba, with only one pediatric ophthalmologist, one pediatric dentist, too few child development doctors and a shortage of pediatricians in rural areas. Dr. Lucash stated that, and I quote: timely care for children is vital, but too many children are not even getting the help they need fast enough. Today, one year later, the situation is even worse for Manitoba children. Can the minister explain what the impact is on the healthy development of children such as Kaela Kostiuk of having to wait in many cases over six months, or even into the years for needed assessment, diagnosis, and treatment, including surgery?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, again, Madam Speaker, the specific question after the preamble that the member has put on the record which I do not necessarily accept, but the specific question is basically very similar to the question that the member for Thompson has just asked me. I have indicated very clearly in this House that I will follow up on that immediately to confirm whether or not the information being put forward is accurate. But, more importantly, the individual patient that the member has brought to this House today, I will follow up on that as I have indicated.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Can the minister, who last week was unaware of the situation at the Child Development Clinic, which, despite his claims, remains without a full-time doctor, explain the gap between his announcements and his pronouncements and the reality of hundreds, if not thousands of Manitoba children waiting months, if not years for needed health services? Not just one situation but hundreds, if not thousands.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): The member refers to the Child Development Clinic, which we have discussed in this House. That clinic has been provided with additional support for one additional position which will help to address the issue of reducing waiting times in terms of that important assessment service. I have indicated again here that, in this budget alone, with $194 million more in health care, it is allowing us to continue to improve services, to continue to reduce any waiting lists that are deemed to be excessive, to create reasonable periods of waiting time, and so on.

I can only say I am assuming that is one of the reasons that the member for Wellington supported this budget. If she had major concerns about where we were dedicating our health care dollars, the amount of health care spending we were putting in place and so on, then she should not have voted for our budget. She supported our budget, I believe, because she recognized that we were devoting significant resources to address these very important issues of waiting lists for Manitobans and particularly when it relates to the children of Manitoba.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Given that Dr. Brian Postl of the WHA is quoted as saying just when we settle something in one area, we lose something in another area, will the minister finally accept that it is his responsibility and his government's responsibility, not just for pronouncements for actual reality of putting resources where his announcements are, and that his actions over the last 11 years have resulted in directly jeopardizing the health care of thousands of children in Manitoba?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): I acknowledge no such thing. Quite the opposite. Since 1988 alone, health care spending in Manitoba is up by $800 million, a 60 percent increase. This budget alone, our 1999 budget that we just voted on several weeks ago, includes $2.1 billion, a $194 million increase. The member for Wellington and her colleagues voted in favour of that budget. I am sure one of the reasons, beyond issues like the tax cuts and others, was because of the significant increase in spending for health care. Health care is 35.5 percent of our budget. Only one province in Canada spends a higher percentage of their budget on health care on a per capita basis.

Studies done by organizations like the Canadian Institute for Health Information, Mr. Michael Decter, and so on, show Manitoba stacks up very well in terms of per capita spending. We are consistently in the top three or four per capita. We are dedicating significant resources to health care in Manitoba to provide quality care and to continue to address the important issues of reducing waiting lists in our province.

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Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, yesterday, in the hallway, the Minister of Health told the media that Health Sciences Centre had been provided for in their budget for renovations required for the frozen food fiasco that is being foisted on them. The spokesperson for Health Sciences Centre said that this is not correct, that no such budget had ever been developed, that tenders have not even gone out yet, so no one knows what it is going to cost. Who is telling the truth to this House? Is it the Health minister or is it the spokesman for the Health Sciences Centre?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): The member for Crescentwood, like he did yesterday, brings incorrect information to the House again. He was wrong with the information he brought yesterday in terms of the whole logistics at HSC. We have had discussions with them. The kind of system they are putting in place is exactly what they have done at other facilities. The issues he raised yesterday were not issues that were of a concerned agency that were not being addressed as part of the overall plan. He was completely wrong with the misinformation he brought yesterday.

In terms of this issue, Urban Shared Services Corporation, in their capital planning for all of this redevelopment, obviously included an estimate of an amount for what would be required at Health Sciences Centre. Health Sciences Centre is now going through that detailed analysis of all of the elements in terms of what are required, and they are going to be finalizing those costs. They will be obviously comparing that to what Urban Shared Services Corporation has in their budget. They will be negotiating that with them and resolving this issue.

So there is no inconsistency in what is being done. Urban Shared Services Corporation has had an estimate of what they expect this to cost. That estimate will now be stacked up against what the final numbers are based on this detailed review.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Will the minister finally acknowledge that the budget that was allowed for by Urban Shared Services was $1,042,000 for all nine hospitals? That is all that was allowed for patient services. Will he simply confirm the numbers in the business plan?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): No. Again, the member is wrong in terms of the information he brings. I am not sure where he is receiving his information. Maybe it is the same source as when he brought information on Deer Lodge hospital here. That, again, was absolutely, completely inaccurate. It was not even accurate 10 percent of the time. Some people are now calling him the 10 percent man. Again, absolutely inaccurate information. He has now done that, I believe, again today, continues to bring inaccurate information and portray an absolutely incorrect picture.

Information Tabling Request

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I wonder, Madam Speaker, if the minister would be prepared to table in this House a document dated June 23, 1997, from Joe Sheil to the nine participating facilities, the business case and the information contained in it, and we will see who is telling the truth.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I will certainly look at what documentation I can continue to provide the member for Crescentwood, but the information in terms of the original planning around Urban Shared Services Corporation I believe showed that there would be renovation requirements of about $2.5 million, there would be equipment requirements of about $1.2 million, for a total of about $3.7 million.

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Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Environment.

Madam Speaker, when the Maple Leaf plant in Brandon was announced, local residents asked for a public assessment process so impacts of the plant, including discharges into the Assiniboine River, could be considered. The minister rejected that proposal. The minister's own advisory committee recommended that hearings be held into the project in its entirety, but the minister's department rejected that as well.

Madam Speaker, my question to the minister: can she now explain, given that her department is now only finding out that high levels of ammonia will be discharged into the Assiniboine River, which could delay the opening of the plant, why her predecessor rejected an assessment process over a year ago, and what the impact of the decision is on the delay of the plant opening?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): I thank my honourable friend for the question. The member has in his preamble said some things that are not quite correct. Having said that, I will indicate to the House that the process in Brandon is working exactly as it should be working. It is incredibly open, incredibly transparent. There are public meetings at each stage along the way of the development in Brandon. It will be sustainable development.

There will be a hearing tonight at which some of the information the member alludes to will be presented by people who are interested in what is going on in Brandon. They will bring forward their thoughts, ideas and concerns, as has been scheduled for them to do. Then the scientific experts will take a look at those, as they are expected to do, and will determine in the end what needs to be done to ensure that, before any licence is granted, the environmental concerns in Brandon are adequately addressed.

That is the process that has been put in place. It is an extremely good process. It is one of the best in Canada, and it is working as it should.

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my question to the minister: can the minister explain why her department, in the case of Maple Leaf and other developments, is not implementing the guidelines set out in The Sustainable Development Act?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): The people who work in the Department of Environment are fulfilling their obligations under the law according to The Environment Act, according to the policies and practices of the government of Manitoba and according to the sustainable development initiative that has been put forward very carefully and thoughtfully by this government, unfortunately ignored by the previous government who had a terrible record in terms of environmental, one of the worst in Canada.

So, Madam Speaker, I categorically reject the allegation that is apparent in his question. It is implied and it is wrong.

Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, she is violating The Sustainable Development Act. Will this minister ensure that a comprehensive assessment of all water quality issues related to this plant and others will take place so the health of the local environment is maintained and the plant will not be faced with any further delays?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, I did not hear exactly what the member said–

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mrs. McIntosh: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I did not hear exactly what particular insult the member put in his preamble, but I did hear the last part of it. I believe he said at the beginning that we were violating The Sustainable Development Act. If that is what he said, he is incorrect. He did ask about the Brandon situation, and in Brandon there is a river study being done, there are public hearings being held at each stage before licences are granted. There have to be public hearings held such as the one being held tonight that is bringing forward the very information that he is quoting. It has not even been brought forward yet, and already it is transparent and open for all the people to see, to talk about, to discuss, and that will eventually come to the expert scientists in the Department of Environment who will do their review and analysis of the information they have not yet formally received from the public. But the processes that are laid down are very thorough, very clear and very much in keeping with leading towards a pure and sustainable development for Brandon and indeed all of Manitoba.

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Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): My question is for the Minister of Health.

In 1996 the training program for medical laboratory technologists in Manitoba was cancelled. It is one more example of the present government's inattention to the skilled needs of Manitoba since we now have a skill shortage in this area. Given that a so-called major priority of the present government has been the development of the health industry in Manitoba and that this industry has major needs for laboratory technology, it was clearly absurd to end the program for training medical laboratory technologists. When will the absence of this training program be addressed?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I believe that is an issue we have discussed at some length during our Estimates process. Health is currently in Estimates, as we all know. Starting next fall and the fall of 2000, there will be a new integrated baccalaureate program for technicians and lab technicians done, I believe, at Red River College in conjunction with one of the universities.

Mr. Kowalski: When will the first graduates of a sometime-in-the-future new program actually graduate to help alleviate the current shortage and to build the industries which the government has indicated are important?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, Madam Speaker, I think it is important to remember that this new program is being put in place with the support and co-operation of employers first of all who require these services and these skills to meet the needs of patients, are being put in place with the co-operation with the associations themselves representing the individuals employed in these areas. Again, I had an opportunity just last week to meet with one of the associations that are extremely pleased that this new integrated program will be introduced in Manitoba as early as next year.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): When will the present government introduce legislation to implement the self-governing body for the medical laboratory technologists to help with better planning for this important group of health professionals?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, as I indicated, I have had a chance to meet with some of the groups, some of the associations affected by this. Certainly one of the most important issues was the whole introduction of the new integrated education program which is being acted upon. It is being done with the co-operation of all parties. We discussed other issues, including potential legislative changes and those are under review.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I would like to ask my question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs.

Madam Speaker, as the minister knows, five mutual life insurance companies have proposed to convert from mutual companies owned by the policyholders to publicly traded companies owned by shareholders. I would like to ask the minister: would the minister table any studies that her department has done on the benefits of this move to the public of Manitoba?

Hon. Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): As I am sure my honourable friend across the way knows, Manitoba has no provincially incorporated mutual companies, so this is really a federal matter, and I will just leave it at that.

Mr. Maloway: I think the minister should check her facts. She will find that there are provincially registered mutual companies.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member was recognized for a supplementary question.

Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask the minister, while she is checking out her facts, whether she would also check and see whether she has any studies that indicate whether insurance company investment would decline in Manitoba as a result of this move.

Mrs. Render: I will definitely check my facts and get back to the honourable member.

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Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask the minister: does the government support this move by the insurance industry? I would like to know what she has done to make sure that Manitoba is not a loser as a result of this process.

Mrs. Render: I just really want to remind the honourable member that, to my knowledge, Manitoba has no provincially incorporated mutual companies.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, we have received letters from hundreds of Manitobans in the southwest part of the province, from the student council of Nellie McClung Collegiate, from the parent council in Holland, from Pilot Mound Kinsmen club, from municipalities and many churches, all of them extremely concerned about the Addictions Foundation survey that indicates a significant increase in the number of students reporting alcohol and drug use as the biggest problem they face as young people.

Madam Speaker, the Prairie Spirit School Division is asking the Minister of Education for a commitment from this government for an increase in counselling services for these young people. Could the minister tell us what response he has made to these hundreds of letters?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, as the honourable member knows, the budget this year for the K to 12 part of public education has been increased by, first, the announcement of 2.3 percent by my predecessor over last year's levels, and to that I was able to achieve the additional $2 million, bringing the total for education up to 2.6 percent over levels of last year. The $2 million I referred to was for children with special needs.

In reference to the specifics of the question, I am sure we can discuss that a little later this afternoon as we get into the review of the Estimates. We are just very happy to have the support of the honourable member and all her colleagues for the level of funding for education in this year's budget.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister confirm that one of the consequences of the last decade of education funding and the cuts in actual amounts to public schools has been a significant decrease in the number of counsellors in public schools? Could the minister tell us what that reduction has been?

Mr. McCrae: Well, I certainly could not confirm that because levels of funding for education, at 19.8 percent of total spending this year, is quite significantly better than the level of commitment on the part of the previous New Democratic government at 17.7 percent. So, Madam Speaker, I do not think the honourable member can very well stand there and make that kind of a case especially in light of the fact that this year she and her colleagues so gleefully supported the budget tabled by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer).

Ms. Friesen: Would the minister undertake to recognize that these drug and alcohol problems facing young people in southwestern Manitoba are extremely serious, and will he bring to the House a long-term plan of prevention and support that will help these young people in southwestern Manitoba?

Mr. McCrae: Well, Madam Speaker, I can certainly understand concerns raised in areas like southwestern Manitoba. Obviously, coming from Brandon, I am very aware of those types of concerns and support for doing something about them. If there are concerns like that, they would be in places other than southwestern Manitoba, as well.

But I say to the honourable member, the partnership that we have with educators and with the school divisions is a strong one. I know the honourable member and her colleagues would like to get rid of school boards, but we have school boards. School trustees are elected people, and they also raise money through taxation. Through this partnership, we all attempt to do the very best we can for the students of today so that they can be successful citizens of tomorrow.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Natural Resources.

In 1998, we raised the issue of penned hunts with this minister in the context of a committee struck by his department and the Department of Agriculture to consider penned hunts for elk. At that time, the minister stated in this House and in Estimates that he and his department were opposed and that he was upset that that spectre was raised in this House.

Can the minister explain, given that the minister reiterated his position in a letter to the editor claiming penned hunts were illegal, why his department was unaware of penned hunts in Manitoba until we on this side requested an investigation?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, Madam Speaker, unfortunately, the member for Dauphin is sitting pretty close to 10 percent of the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), because, in fact, the Department of Natural Resources is well aware of the situations that the member is raising, and they are investigating them.

Mr. Struthers: And the minister still allows animals to be released into a pen and shot for money.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Dauphin was recognized for a supplementary question. Please pose your question now.

Mr. Struthers: Given that the minister has now learned that penned hunts, including the hunting of our provincial bison, do exist in Manitoba, can he explain why he now says that penned hunts are, in fact, legal in Manitoba?

Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, one of the situations that the member refers to is where there are wild boars that are offered for hunting, they in fact are not controlled under The Manitoba Wildlife Act, and they are not protected. In fact, if they are found in the wild, we would encourage people to eliminate them.

Mr. Struthers: And he still allows the animals to be led into a pen–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Dauphin, to pose his question, please.

Mr. Struthers: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Given that the minister expressed strong opposition, stating that penned hunts did not reflect true sportsmanship, can he explain why he has now flip-flopped and now will allow penned hunts to continue in this province?

Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, if the member chooses to misrepresent the situation, that is his choice. But any animals protected under The Wildlife Act in this province will not be a penned hunt.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker.

The minister's use of the phrase "chooses to misrepresent" is clearly unparliamentary. I point out that it has been this member who has brought this issue to this House on a consistent basis, and it was only the facts put on the record by this member that made the minister even aware there was a problem.

I would urge you to have the minister withdraw those unparliamentary words.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Natural Resources, on the same point of order.

Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order.

The opposition House leader takes umbrage at the term "misrepresent," but I would remind him that if he were to read the letter that was referenced earlier in the question, it specifically references The Wildlife Act.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I indeed will take the matter under advisement to carefully check the actual context of the minister's words and bring a ruling back to the Chamber.

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Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I am concerned that the minister in Estimates has not received any information about the new federal minister for homelessness, Claudette Bradshaw, about her role, her programs, her funding to deal with homelessness in Canada.

I want to ask the minister if he has had a chance to reconsider his approach, his wait-and-see attitude from Estimates when he said: We look forward toward the federal government defining its role and objectives and its criteria, and that we will make a response we feel is appropriate for Manitoba, implying that they are going to wait and see what the federal government is going to offer, and then come forward with the Manitoba position–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, to pose her question now.

Ms. Cerilli: I want to ask the minister if he has had a chance to reconsider this approach and tell us what position he is going to bring to the federal meeting with the minister and the ministers' meetings of Housing from all across Canada with respect to the means in Manitoba for housing and homelessness to make sure the–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, yes, reflecting back to some of the conversations during the Estimates period, there was a fair amount of discussion in regard to the recent announcement by the federal government with their new minister responsible for homelessness. The federal government made that announcement, but they did not give any type of indication of what this minister was responsible for, what her directions were, what her involvement was, whether there was a budgeted allotment to it or anything of that nature.

So we had made some contacts, as I mentioned during the Estimates, through our senior bureaucracy to get some more information on this because one of the things that we did want to put on the agenda for the ministers of Housing's conference was exactly to find out what the federal position was and what this minister was actually responsible for because we had no information. In fact, we did not even have the phone number or an address for this minister of homelessness from the federal government.

Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I am wanting to ask the minister if he will consider a quote from consultations that the New Democratic Party has made on homelessness where it says: I had a case in Thompson of a new-born baby. The baby was put into care voluntarily because they had no furnace, no stove and no water. The baby is still in care because they did not have any housing to take the baby to.

Consider that quote and consider the position that you will take to the minister of homelessness federally, and will you confirm for the House or commit to the House that you will make public the needs that you are going to present to the federal minister on behalf of Manitoba?

Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, let it not be said that this government is not concerned with the social problems and some of the homelessness that is involved with not only Winnipeg but in all areas of Manitoba, and we consider it a very, very serious problem in trying to address the needs of all peoples and all Manitobans.

The address mentioned in regard to the recent appointment that the federal Liberal government has announced regarding the minister responsible for homelessness that we will definitely be wanting to see what the parameters are. We feel that there is a need to address some of the problems of homelessness, and we look forward to the meetings with the ministers to discuss these things on a wide range.

So we do take the meeting seriously. We do take the fact that there are people in need in Manitoba, and we will try to address those once we know actually what the directions and some of the parameters that the federal government has come out with. But, to date, they have not even sent us correspondence to this nature.

Ms. Cerilli: Finally, on my supplementary to the minister, I want to ask if this minister, in his preparation for the meeting of Housing ministers from across the country, if he and his government will support the proposal by the federal NDP to ask the new minister of homelessness to include a 1 percent increase in the federal budget for housing and homelessness in the country.

Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, we are always interested in any type of initiative that the federal government comes out with in regard to the expenditures of funding that can be of benefit to Manitoba. If there are fundings that are made available for expenditures in housing or any other programs in our social envelope, naturally we will want to be there and we want to be a part of the discussions to make sure that Manitoba is well represented and that there is an apportioning and a sharing of that funding that does come to Manitoba. So we will certainly lobby to that effect if the federal government is coming out with new funding or an allocation of funding whether it is in housing or in any other type of social envelope.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Education, the MLA for Brandon West. Brandon University has been underfunded for the past several years by this government and now again this year is being provided with insufficient funds. As a result, and as the minister should know, it has been announced that they are going to have to raise tuition fees substantially and to cut back on the teaching staff. Tuition fee increases will not only affect the level and number of courses offered but also will discourage enrollment.

Madam Speaker, will the minister review and adjust the level of government funding of Brandon University, which I know he holds dear in his heart, to ensure that that university can remain an affordable and important institution of higher learning in Manitoba?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Well, the honourable member is certainly right that I hold Brandon University dear in my heart, Madam Speaker. I also, in my responsibilities, hold all post-secondary education in Manitoba dear in my heart, and that is why there is a 5 percent increase in this year's budget for the various activities that take place in post-secondary education. That is why I am sort of joining the Premier (Mr. Filmon), who has taken a leadership role in Canada, in attempting to get the federal government to do the right thing for post-secondary education in the next federal budget. So I do indeed feel very strongly about these matters. I think that the increase in expenditures will indeed help the post-secondary sector in Manitoba keep ahead of the needs that are going to be there for a well-trained and well-educated future population.

I guess I can only thank the honourable member for Brandon East for his generous support of the budget this year which indeed does have 5 percent more for education.

Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, will the minister acknowledge that tuition fees have increased by 35 percent in the past four years at Brandon University and that the lack of sufficient funding this year will result in another 8.5 percent in tuition hikes, and as such is creating a serious obstacle for students, especially from families of modest means, to be able to afford and attend Brandon University?

Mr. McCrae: I do indeed understand the challenges that students face at a time in their lives when they do not have high incomes and they do have fairly high expenditures. Maybe you cannot feel very sorry for me, but as a father of five and dealing with post-secondary education for them, even at the level of income of a politician, I know that there are difficulties for students across the system. Knowing that, the Province of Manitoba is pleased that our overall cost of education at the university level is third or fourth best in Canada, that our college entrance tuition overall in Canada is best anywhere in the country. That is why I am happy to be supporting a government that brought in a 7 percent Learning Tax Credit. That is why I am glad that our Finance ministers have been supporting quintupling of the contribution to the scholarships and bursaries program, leveraging some $40 million, I believe it is, over four or five years. All of these benefits taken together, along with a tuition policy that makes some sense in Manitoba, does assist students in getting through that time of their lives.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.