Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Housing. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 30.1. Housing Executive (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 98 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I know that the Minister of Housing is a very flexible person and very knowledgeable about his department in some ways, and therefore he is able to answer any questions that I might have, even though it might not necessarily be on the proper line. Therefore I have some questions which may not be relevant to this line, but I am sure the minister can help me out in any case.

I wonder if the minister could tell us about the visit that he and staff made to Kenilworth, I think it is called, in Washington, D.C., and what he learned there and what aspects of management of public housing there he thinks might be transferable to Manitoba.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): What precipitated the trip down to Washington actually came about in looking back to when there were conversations with the Gilbert Park Tenants Association, and they had indicated their desire to go towards some sort of self-management within their complex. There was a fair number of conversations that we had with them as to what were some of the parameters and directions and everything. It just so happened that there was a special on PBS television in regard to some things that were happening in Washington in regard to a public housing complex and how a lady by the name of Kimmie Grey had come about changing the complex and the face of management at this particular public housing complex.

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The television program that was on PBS outlined how this tenants association more or less decided that they wanted to change their complex down in Washington. I am trying to remember how many units there were there, approximately. I think there were somewhere close to 500 or more units down there, and they were having an awful lot of problems with vandalism; they were having problems with gang activity; they were having trouble with prostitution and just a tremendous number of vacancies in this complex. It seemed to parallel to a degree some of the problems that we were having back here in Winnipeg in regard to a couple of our very large housing complexes, in particular Gilbert Park and Lord Selkirk Park. So it sparked a fair amount of interest and conversation not only within the tenants association but also with a Mr. Tom Simms with CEDA, who also saw the program on PBS.

So we got hold of the tape. We looked at it. The tenants in Gilbert Park also got hold of the tape, and they watched it, and it sparked an interest as to trying to find out some more information on it. So the Gilbert Park residents association, along with Mr. Tom Simms, as I mentioned before, with CEDA, started to make some inquiries as to how they could go down there and visit the complex. They were fortunate enough to get some funding from the Winnipeg Foundation, the Sill Foundation, I believe, one of the credit unions, I cannot remember exactly which one it was. So a delegation was set to go down and visit this housing complex in Washington with I think there was about four or five from Gilbert Park and four or five from Lord Selkirk Park, plus myself and two staff from my department.

We went down there. We spent–actually the group went down before myself and the staff went down, and I think there was a total of about four days that we were down in Washington. During that time we had an opportunity to tour the complex, and I think what became very evident right from the very beginning when we got down there was this sense of self-ownership by this group and this tenants association of this housing complex.

We have to look back. They said that they started this back in the late '80s, so this was not an overnight sensation. This had taken quite a few years to transpire. There was a lot of meetings. There was a lot of growing pains. There was a lot of working with legislators and administrators and the cities to try to get them to recognize that they wanted to be the management association for this complex. They did slowly evolve to that place. So when we came down there, we saw the finished product, if you want to call it, which was very, very well managed. They had set up a system where they started to self-police the unit with having patrols. They set up a training program for people. They set up a screening process for applications. They set up house rules for people who were moving in.

They set up patrols for truancy for schools. If students did not go to school, there was a reporting mechanism that the schools would report back to the association saying that this such and such a child was not at school so they were looking for him. They had a program where the child if he was kicked out of the classroom would not go home and just sit in front of the TV. He would be sort of seconded to the maintenance department of the complex to do work. This was not only older children but young children that they would always find something for them to do. They would be working literally on the complex from the school hours that they should have been in school, they would be doing work on the complex. So the children became quite attentive to not only going to school but behaving in school because they knew if they did not, they had to go back to the complex and someone in the complex would make them do some sort of work to supplement the time that they were kicked out of school. If they were kicked out by the principal for two days or something like that, they would be working onsite.

They also had a setup, what they call a CEO program for new tenants, where tenants that were coming in were given training of sorts to learn how to do the basics of bookkeeping, meal preparation, handling of children type of thing, and this was all set up by the tenants themselves. They monitored it; they policed it; they set up the training programs. They also set up a job preparation training program in life skills and in trying to find work for some of the people who were unemployed in the complex. They had a child daycare centre onsite. They had set up a grocery store onsite for the tenants to be involved with the buying and the selling of food right onsite. They set up a drug and alcohol treatment centre right within the complex also for treating some of the people who had addiction problems. They had people come in and counsel and supervise these people. There was a health centre for prenatal and education right on the site. They had set up an after-school program for students that came in. We happened to be on the site one time just as the students were coming out of school, and there was a noticeable degree of respect for older people as these children were coming off the buses and milling around and playing just like all children do when they come off a bus towards us as older people.

You would never know that you were in a so-called housing complex or a low-rent area. That is a bad expression, but the stigma that is put towards that sometimes puts a stereotype blanket on these types of housing complexes. But you certainly did not feel that or sense that by the attitude of the people that we talked to or the children that we met or the workers or the staff. They were all very, very upbeat. They were very, very proud of their complex. They were very jealous of it. If there was any type of even hint of gang activity or drug trafficking, they worked very, very closely with the police.

Whenever someone, from what I understand, noticed there was any type of criminal activity, they phoned the police. The police responded very, very quickly into that area to eliminate the problem areas.

So it was a very impressive and a well-managed complex. The lady that started it, like I mentioned earlier, her name is Kimmie Grey, a very forceful, a very dedicated lady, a lady that commanded a tremendous amount of respect by all the workers and everybody that was around her, the tenants. You could see that just by the people who came in contact with her while we were there. They held her in very high respect and regard.

It was quite an eye-opener as to how tenants can literally take over their complex for self-management and self-control. What they have done is they have expanded that I believe into Baltimore, that type of concept, and I believe in one other city, St. Louis or something. I cannot remember. It was another southern city where they had expanded this. They had used this blueprint and this model.

It is used quite extensively. They provided us with a fair amount of material and guidelines, their application forms, their house rules. These were all brought back by not only our staff but by the tenants at Lord Selkirk and Gilbert Park. They were quite enthusiastic about what was happening down there.

The one thing that did come about too that was quite noticeable is the condition of the units. The units were actually in very, very good shape. There was very little of any type of vandalism or graffiti. In fact, I do not think we saw any graffiti in the whole complex. The grounds were neat and tidy. Like I say, you would never associate that as a public housing complex or project in this particular area.

It was a very successful type of endeavour that they we were able to take advantage of. What we have done is we have issued an invitation to this lady that I mentioned earlier, the spearhead behind it all, this Kimmie Grey, to come up to Winnipeg. I think there are tentative plans to try to bring her into Winnipeg for a speaking engagement maybe sometime in the late summer or early fall. This lady is in quite a demand to speak, to be available, to try to help other projects. Hopefully, we can arrange to have her come up here. It was a very interesting trip down to Washington.

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Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, if this person indeed is our guest in Manitoba, I hope the minister will let our Housing critic and myself know when she is in Winnipeg.

My next question is whether it is up to the tenants or the tenants' associations here to decide which ideas are already in place in Washington, D.C. that they might want to replicate here, and then to ask Manitoba Housing Authority for permission to implement those ideas. How does the minister envisions dealing with, say, requests that tenants' associations bring to replicate these ideas or practices here?

Mr. Reimer: I think that what we would encourage the tenants' association to do–it was even suggested when we were down there in conversation with them that it is a slow process in a sense of biting off small chunks of decision making and authority and responsibilities. What they found there is, as the confidence level grew, as the involvement grew, as the results started to come forth with the small victories, if you want to call it, of administration or whatever the program that they decided to undertake, that was something that they built upon. They built upon the positive aspects of what they wanted to change. So this is what they recommended quite strongly is do not be overly aggressive as to wanting to change everything overnight. They told us that it takes years. It takes a mindset to develop within the complex, and they readily admitted that it took them quite awhile to get the momentum going and the enthusiasm and the ownership factor to come there into that particular area. They started, like I mentioned, I think it was in the late '80s, to get to where they are now.

I think what we are trying to do is–and we are along that route. I am certainly not saying that we are not going that route. I think that with what has been shown by the two tenants' associations, Lord Selkirk and Gilbert Park, that they have taken that first step of wanting to make change and to be part of the change, and I think that is the biggest first step to wanting to be self-sustaining and to be able to control our own community and to be involved with the decision making.

So those are some of the steps that we can build upon. I think that we sense that type of optimism within both those tenants' associations, that they feel that they can be part of the change and that we will support them. We have said that we would dedicate funding towards, and the allocation of some of our budget programming to, these associations as they work forward. It is a matter of monitoring it fairly closely, working with them to try to get the best results. I think that is what they feel comfortable with, too. In fact, I know that is what they have recommended back to us, too, that they would rather work on a slow basis and see how they can proceed with it than try to just dump total responsibility right off the top.

It reinforces what we heard down in Washington, too. That was the recommended course of action, that they got the results to where they are now.

Mr. Martindale: Some of my colleagues and I have received complaints, and I am not referring to any particular public housing development here, but we have received complaints, or allegations, that people living in public housing are dealing in drugs. Now, it is my understanding that the way tenants are currently chosen to live in public housing is based on core need. I am wondering, first of all, if the minister can explain core need, and secondly, are there any checks done for references from previous, or even current, landlords at the time that people make an application to live in public housing?

Mr. Reimer: I guess there are two parts to the question the member asked me. In regard to the core need income thresholds, when a person does make application for public housing, they have to fall within these income thresholds for the various units, and they depend on the size of the unit, from a one-bedroom to a two-, to a three-, to a four-bedroom type of a unit. Each one has a different income threshold.

It amounts to if the rent that the person is paying is over 30 percent, they are in an income threshold that will allow them to move into public housing. The threshold level, for example here in Winnipeg, for a one-bedroom unit is $18,500. For a two-bedroom unit it is $23,500. For a three-bedroom unit it is $29,000, and for a four-bedroom unit it is $32,500.

So those are the core need income thresholds as of 1998, and those are reviewed, I believe, on an annual basis, too, so they may be changing in 1999.

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In regard to the comment made by the member in regard to people that are dealing in criminal activities or drugs or things like that, we do background checks of individuals to make sure that we try to screen out people of character that we would not want in our public housing. Also, I think the member is aware that we have instituted what we call a one-strike-you-are-out type of policy with public housing where, if a person is dealing with drugs–and we work very closely with the police. I should mention too that we do work very closely with the police in our application process in some of our public housing complexes, where the police are involved with knowing who is on the application list so that the police can be informed if there is somebody that may have a character that we do not want. They become aware of that, too, so the police are involved with some, I should not say some but most, of our monitoring in a lot of our complexes. So we work with them very closely, too, to try to eliminate any type of criminal activity in the units. If they are charged, they are automatically kicked out of our public housing.

We find that we have had very good response from the tenants' associations. They have told us that they want closer and tighter controls of their community and in their housing projects, and they actually applauded us for bringing forth this type of stricter controls because they feel that they do not want their areas to deteriorate. They want the safety and security that they feel they deserve, and so do we feel they deserve. So we have come down fairly hard on anybody that is threatening. I forget exactly what are those house rules. We can get the member a copy of those house rules, if he likes them. There are various other activities that these people are not allowed to be involved with.

We have found that it has become very popular with the tenants' association. When people are moving in, they are given a set of the rules and say these are the rules, you have to abide by them or else you leave. So they are made aware of it right from the very top when they move in that these are the guidelines for their housing complex. It has worked out to be quite successful.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister for a copy of the house rules. I think I would find those interesting and helpful.

If someone was applying to live in a housing co-operative, they would be asked for their current landlord's name and address and one or two previous landlords. Is that also the case if someone is applying for Manitoba Housing, and do the staff check with current and previous landlords?

Mr. Reimer: Yes, that is the procedure we subscribe to also.

Mr. Martindale: I would like to move on to a different topic or set of topics, beginning with asking the minister what his view is, or analysis is, of some of the housing problems in the inner city. I think I could name them quite readily, but I would like to hear, first of all, the minister's view of what he thinks are some of the current issues in the inner city.

Mr. Reimer: Yes, it is a topic, I think, that I can wear almost all three portfolio hats on and bring forth a bit of a discussion, whether I am the Minister of Housing or the Minister of Urban Affairs or the Minister responsible for Seniors, because Housing overlaps all three of those areas. So maybe as Minister of Housing, I can talk on that one first and say that the condition of housing in Winnipeg or in Manitoba is a concern to all of us. If we specifically talk about Winnipeg, I think in general public housing is in good shape. I think that our public housing is well maintained. I think that the staff and the people involved with public housing with my portfolio not only in Winnipeg but throughout Manitoba have a dedication and a cause to be concerned about trying to do the best not only for the department but for the tenants and the people that live in our public housing.

A lot of them do an awful lot of extracurricular or above and beyond the call of duty in regard to dealing with people, because a lot of the people in public housing are, to a degree, a fair amount of the population, I believe it is almost 65 percent or more are seniors within our Housing portfolio. Like I say, I can overlap with trying to address the problem in regard to seniors. I think staff in general terms with our public housing are very, very concerned about the well-being and the safety and security of all tenants in our complex.

In general, public housing in Manitoba is in good shape of occupancy. There is a bit of a vacancy. We would like to see more people in public housing so that our vacancy rate goes down. I think our vacancy rate right now is around 10 percent overall. It depends on the area naturally. It could be higher or it could be lower, but overall it is about 10 percent.

Our maintenance program is very aggressive. Last year we spent over $10 million in maintenance. This year we will spend over $11 million. Our commitment to keeping the stock in good condition is continuing. We are looking at that aspect of housing in a very critical manner.

If I talk about the City of Winnipeg with my Urban Affairs hat, I can say that housing is a concern in a sense that we look at certain areas of the city where there are absentee landlords. There is boarded-up housing. There is housing that is in bad disarray and repair that should be done. In general, I can point to either private ownership or landlord conditions on those because our public housing, we try to maintain that in a higher quality.

If we do have vacancies, what we have done in some of our areas of Winnipeg have made some interesting partnerships with some of the nonprofit associations. A good example is New Life Ministries, under the direction of a Mr. Harry Lehotsky, who we have been able to delegate. I believe it is two buildings that they have renovated and taken over and used them as a revenue source to possibly take on extra buildings to renovate for people to live in. It has proven to be quite successful.

We just very recently were involved with a financing program and supplied some funding to the Westminster Housing Society, where they renovated a threeplex on Langside, I believe it was. That is now being rented out. What they are doing with that funding is renovating another home across the street of a similar nature with the idea of renovating it and renting it out.

I am fairly optimistic. I think that there is a tremendous amount of willingness with various groups within the city to want to take back the streets and take back their communities, to get more of a change in their communities. I think that these are some of the things that we as a government can support, because we have found that when you start to utilize the assets of the community, if you start to build community capacity, these are the things where changes can come about. It is usually government's role on these, and I am a believer that government's role should be in a catalyst form or a complementary funding or supplementary funding of some sort to try to help these groups to take hold of their communities, to renovate their communities, to bring back housing of some nature back into the communities. I think Winnipeg in the core area, in the downtown area, is starting to change that way. More people are recognizing that there is a value out there and that they can make differences and they can make things change. As much as there are a lot of people running around with the city of Winnipeg and the downtown areas decaying, I think there is room for a fair amount of optimism that things are going to change.

They are starting to change. I think there is a change of attitude. I have noticed it in a lot of the, like I say, associations and the partnerships that we are dealing with some of these groups. I believe we have done one with the Lions Club, too, somewhere. I am trying to remember what street that was. They renovated some homes there, also with the Real Estate Board. They have renovated some homes. It is these types of things that make a change and can make things change in Winnipeg.

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Mr. Martindale: Would the minister agree that declining property values in the inner city is a serious problem?

Mr. Reimer: I think that is one of the areas where there is a problem. I think, as pointed out in some areas, the value of homes have gone down and that has added to some of the problems. But I think that just as that has added to the problem, I think there are possibly opportunities there for people to come in and buy some of these homes, renovate them, live in them or look at them for housing for themselves because in a lot of the cases some of these homes just need a little bit of upgrading and building up and occupancy. If you have people moving back into the communities, some of these homes can represent a fairly significant bargain to get into. The member is right, in certain areas there has been a declining value rate in some of these neighbourhoods and it is a problem.

Mr. Martindale: I think the minister is putting a much more positive spin on declining property values than is realistic. What is actually happening is that people who can afford to are fleeing to the suburbs or exurban communities and property values are continuing to decline and more and more of the stock is becoming rental instead of home ownership.

Would the minister agree that arson is a serious problem in the inner city?

Mr. Reimer: I think that we always have to be very cognizant of the fact that some of these things are happening in regard to vandalism and arson. One of the ways to combat that is to look at some of the community patrols. I know through the Minister of Justice, through his COP program which is Citizens on Patrol, there have been some positive results. There have been some positive turnarounds in some of these areas where the citizens have taken upon themselves to be part of a patrol system. I had the opportunity to literally walk the beat, if you want to call it, with one of the citizens patrol in and around the Selkirk Avenue and the Lord Selkirk Park complex with about I think there had to have been at least half a dozen of us, and we did the beat, if you want to call it, one night. It is surprising how many people recognized the participants, stopped to talk to them, stopped to say hello to them, and not only people who were doing the walk knew a lot of the areas and pointed out areas where there were possibly problems or troubles or where they were watching, a closer scrutiny.

I think that has helped in the area. I know in a particular area, at the Lord Selkirk Park, since this has come about the so-called pimps and prostitution have–I am not saying that it has vanished, but it certainly has become a less significant part of the neighbourhood than it was two or three years ago mainly because of people being on patrol. One of the things that would be a positive aspect in regard to people on patrol is the fact of arson and young people not having that free time on their hands to get into problems. That brings in the other aspect of trying to get some sort of programming for young people in various areas of the city so they have something to take their mind off of criminal activity.

I give all kinds of compliments to Rossbrook House, to the Turtle Island Community Centre, the Freight House area, and some of the programs that they come up with. They get strong support, and a lot of it is just keeping young people off the streets and keeping them occupied, whether it is a midnight basketball hoops program or some sort of tai kwondo classes or things like that that are put on. These things keep young people active. They keep them out of the criminal activity areas where they become bored and feel that arson is a way to relieve some sort of frustration or areas where they feel that they can get some sort of satisfaction. I think the combination of keeping young people busy, Citizens on Patrol, an awareness program, will make a difference as to arson and some of the problems that we have with that type of element.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, would the minister agree that vacant lots and a declining population are a serious problem in the inner city?

Mr. Reimer: In a lot of areas where they have vacant lots, in fact, when we tear down buildings, what we try to do is we try to put them back into some sort of condition where they can be utilized as a green space or an area that can be utilized for some sort of children's activities or gathering places for communities. A lot of those places can be utilized that way so there is a use for them. So they do not just become a derelict area.

I know that what has happened in some of the areas with the Green Team, which a fair amount of nonprofit organizations take advantage of and I give them full credit for it, is they will take some of these vacant lots and they will actually convert them into some sort of–I have seen small gardens being put in there. I have seen small theme parks put in some of these vacant lots in and around the downtown area. I see a lot of use of some of these areas on an innovative basis. They become a problem, but if they can be converted or changed over to some sort of green activity area, it makes it a place to be for some of the community residents.

Mr. Martindale: Would the minister agree that there is a lack of private sector investment in housing in declining neighbourhoods and that that is a serious problem as well?

Mr. Reimer: I am sorry, I got a message. Would you repeat that question. I am sorry.

Mr. Martindale: I will repeat the question. Would the minister agree that the lack of private sector investment in housing in declining neighbourhoods is a serious problem as well?

Mr. Reimer: I think that there should be more private investment into some of these areas. This is one of the reasons why I think that we, under the Winnipeg Development Agreement, which is part of my Urban Affairs portfolio, just entered into agreement with the City of Winnipeg for a residential component study regarding market analysis for residential housing in the downtown and in the Winnipeg area, because we felt that there should be some sort of collection of data or collection of information as to where and how certain types of housing should transpire in the downtown area and where there is an opportunity for downtown housing to flourish or to be innovative.

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I have noticed just recently that the City of Winnipeg has started to talk of various zoning variance and regulations in zoning that will allow for innovative housing to take place in regard to say, warehouse buildings or buildings that have a designated commercial zoning application that can be converted to some sort of a resident component.

I think it is those type of things that make the downtown area maybe an attractive area to live or to work or to relocate to if there is that type of availability. If the private sector sees an opportunity to get involved with some sort of housing developments in regard to apartments or condos or townhouses or even private individual homes, I would think that there should be the encouragement of sorts by various innovative availabilities for zoning or for variances and things of that nature to let that transpire, because a lot of that can help the city of Winnipeg. It can help the neighbourhoods to grow. It can help other areas to be involved with things that we feel should be happening in the downtown area. There are lots of ways to make the downtown area more attractive, but it is a matter of being more innovative.

Like I say, I think the City of Winnipeg is changing to a degree to look at some of these things in a more innovative manner. The private sector should be encouraged and given the opportunity to come forth with possibly different types of development programs or plans in there. I think that we as a provincial government would encourage that type of approach.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if we could take a one minute recess so I can discuss House business with the House leader's assistant.

Mr. Chairperson: Yes.

Mr. Martindale: I think the minister has either agreed directly or indirectly that boarded up houses are a serious problem in the inner city. Declining property values are a serious problem in the inner city. Certainly, that is one that affects me because I live in the north end. We have considered moving, so we have talked to a real estate agent. Our house is assessed at $56,000. We were told by the real estate agent that we should realistically expect $35,000 to $45,000. This is very typical of thousands of homeowners in the north end whose property values have declined up to a third and in some cases more. In fact, there are a lot of houses that are for sale now for $20,000 which is what really only the lot is worth. People are very concerned that they are losing their equity. They are losing their investment or losing their retirement income because their house is worth far less than what it was 10 years ago or, in many cases, far less than what it is assessed at.

Arson is certainly a serious problem in the inner city. People expressed concerns to me that they do not really care about a vacant house being torched so much as concern about their house next door that is occupied that might burn as a result of a vacant house burning down.

The declining population in the inner city is partly due to apartments being torn down and not being replaced, houses being torn down and not being replaced, and we certainly saw this with the maps that Elections Manitoba produced showing the percent population changes by constituency. Almost all of the inner city had population declines. For example, in Burrows I think the population declined by 17 percent in 10 years.

There is certainly a lack of private sector investment in housing in the inner city in the declining neighbourhoods. There certainly is no construction going on, that I can think of, anywhere. Those are only some of the problems, some of the major problems which leads to my question, what is your government doing about these problems? You have mentioned that you are working in partnership with New Life Ministries and a number of other organizations, but they are buying and renovating or renovating a very small number of homes. They are building a very small number of homes. I guess it begs the question of what is the government doing on its own initiative. Is there a social housing program? Not that I am aware of. Is there an infill housing program? Not that I am aware of. Is there a renovation program? I think of all the renovation programs, maybe there is one left, the Emergency Home Repair Program. Is there a co-op housing program?

Perhaps the minister could tell us what your government is doing about all these serious problems in the inner city.

Mr. Reimer: Some of the programs that the member mentioned regarding inner city housing and some of the things that are happening, I know that we do not have, per se, a new housing program here in Manitoba. One of the reasons for that is that at one time we were in partnership not only with the federal government but the municipal governments in regard to the building of new stock and new buildings throughout Manitoba. In fact, we just have to look back into the '70s and '80s. There was an awful lot of activity, but one of the reasons for that is the fact that the federal government and, like I say, to a degree, the municipal governments, were partners with the provincial government in housing.

The federal government decided that they did not want to be part of social housing anymore or public housing. In looking back over the last few years, they originally decided that they would get out of public housing, I believe it was in the early '90s, that they would not build anymore. They, then, '92 I believe it was, '93, yes, somewhere around there, I think it was a couple years later the federal government decided they would cap the amount of money that they would give the provinces, based on I believe it was the '95-96 expenditures. We were given that as our working base for any type of flow of funding from the federal government.

Then, just a few years ago, or 18 months or so, or just over a year ago, they decided that they would get out of public housing totally. They told the provincial government that they would get out totally from public housing, so it meant that we had to, if we wanted, we had the opportunity to negotiate the takeover, what they called the devolution agreement, with the federal government. With that, we got involved with negotiations and we tried to make the best deal for Manitobans looking at taking over their total federal portfolio. In essence what we were doing is we were doubling our portfolio from about 17,000 units to well over 36,000 units.

With that, one of the biggest things, selling points if you want to call it, for us as a provincial government to look at is the fact that we now became the sole decision makers as regards the public housing in Manitoba. Any fundings or monies that were realized as a savings we could reinvest into housing. That was a very definite stipulation of the takeover agreement or the devolution agreement, the fact that the federal government is saying, okay, we will let you manage it, we are going to give you X amount of dollars, it is on a declining basis, it peters out in about the year 2032. I think it is from a high of around $75 million or $76 million right now, moving downwards. We figured that that is a good way to try to capitalize and to make the best use of the dollars. What they said is if you save any money, you can reinvest it into public housing.

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So it gives us an opportunity to look at innovative ways to utilize any monies that we get from the public housing if we get into possibly selling off programs or devolving ourselves of units or things like that. Those are some of the things that make it attractive. So we have got an opportunity there with the devolution agreement to be innovative in redirection of some of the funding. One of the positives is to try to look at possibly looking at where we can utilize a better resource for the fundings that we do get, like I say, as I mentioned, but it has to go back into housing. That is one of the areas where we feel that there may be some availability for a different type of housing concept or utilization of housing dollars.

What we have announced very recently too, though, is an increase in funding to what we call the RRAP program, the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program. We announced an additional $616,000 as a provincial contribution towards this program. What it does is it ties into the federal program of the RRAP program. What it brings up to is a total contribution for Manitoba of just over $2.4 million that is available for, like I say, this Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program. That is a program that is available. What that does is it gives people the ability to get loans of up to, the maximum loan, for example, here in southern Manitoba, is $18,000, of which $12,000 may be forgivable. It is quite an incentive in regard to upgrading substandard housing or to changing things. In fact, the loan limit in northern Manitoba is even a little bit higher. I do not know exactly what those figures are, but I believe they are just a bit higher than that.

It also gives people on disabilities the ability to take advantage of financial assistance that is of the same nature. In fact, people that have rental homes or rooming houses can also get loans under the RRAP program. Those loans can be up to $18,000 per unit for rental properties and up to $12,000 per bed, if you want to call it, in a rooming house. The RRAP program has been increased, like I say. We have just announced $616,000 as our contribution in that program.

We also just recently announced an additional $74,000 for what we call the HASI program, which is the Home Adaptation for Seniors' Independence program. What that means is it is a program to give funding to seniors that can live independently. They can use some of that money for upgrades of some of their homes in that way.

Under the HASI program, it is also in the form of a forgivable loan for expenses that are incurred by seniors for expanding his or her home to meet their physical needs. That maximum loan on that one is $2,500. It is limited to only one application per household.

So those two programs there do have an avenue of availability for some people who are looking at trying to upgrade their program here in Manitoba. Those are some of the things that we feel can help that.

The contribution that I mentioned under the HASI program, our contribution of $74,000, is on top for a total contribution, combined with the federal government, of just under $300,000. I believe it is $296,000 for a total amount of money that is available here in Manitoba for seniors to upgrade their homes. So we feel that there are avenues, there is recourse for some people to try to upgrade their homes, to bring them up to codes, if you want to call it, for some of things that they feel they have to do in their homes. So those two programs are available.

The emergency home loan program, under the emergency one, there is an allocation of $250,000 with a maximum of $3,000, which is an interest-free loan. So there are three programs that people can take advantage of here in Manitoba for upgrades and improvements in their homes.

Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to quote from a very interesting document called Solutions that Work: Fighting Poverty in Winnipeg's Inner City by Jim Silver, who is the author and is published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. Mr. Silver talks about the importance of housing as a way of combating poverty. He recommends that an inner city fund be set up to address housing needs and recommends that some of the existing organizations could make use of this inner city housing fund to develop nonprofit housing, including Just Housing, which was started by the Community Education Development Association and member groups of the West Broadway Alliance and the inner city Housing Coalition.

The reason that he thinks that this is a good idea is that we already have these mostly very small, nonprofit organizations building or mostly renovating houses in severely declining neighbourhoods in the inner city. However, there is no real economy of scale. They are renovating such a small number of units that, first of all, they are not making very much of an impact on the housing market and, secondly, it is very hard to justify or even pay for overhead for administrative expenses if you are only doing one or two houses a year.

What we really need, and I would like to hear the minister's view on this, is some kind of housing fund that would direct money to these nonprofit community organizations so that they could build 10 houses a year or renovate 10 houses a year or 20 houses a year so that it would have a significant impact on neighbourhoods.

I would just like to quote here from the document on page 23. It says: The cost of achieving a more significant scale is not exorbitant and is certainly less than the benefits it would generate. These benefits would include, among others, job creation, the rehabilitation of valuable housing stock, and a serious attempt at halting rapidly declining inner city property values and thus the rapidly eroding inner city property tax base.

Of course, if you could employ people who are currently on social assistance, that has a whole bunch of benefits, including reducing the cost to government of having these people on social assistance and actually increasing revenue because they would be paying taxes, to say nothing of the fact that there would be personal benefits to them as individuals.

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I am wondering what the minister thinks of either an inner city housing fund or providing more assistance to some of these existing groups. They are getting a lot of publicity. The minister talks about some of the existing groups, but their impact is very small and limited because of the problem, the difficulty that they have getting mortgage financing or getting enough capital to buy houses to renovate and in some cases employing people because, in many cases, they have had houses donated to them. Their acquisition costs have been zero or very low, but they still need money to buy materials to renovate the houses and to pay workers to do the renovations.

Mr. Reimer: This is not necessarily a new concept that the member is referring to, because I can recall a delegation coming to me, I guess it has to have been about six months ago, four months ago, the inner city Housing Coalition. I believe at that time we met with Tom Simms and Mary Richard, and I believe there were some other people. I just cannot remember the rest of the other names.

They had come forth with a similar type of suggestion of setting up a pool fund of various, I think at that time they were looking for the three levels of government to kick in $7 million apiece into a pool that could be utilized for a similar type of renovation program, new home development programs, and building in some of the inner city areas.

What came out of that meeting was that an interdepartmental group was established to work with the inner city Housing Coalition to look at the ideas and explore new ideas and see whether there could be some sort of meaningful direction coming out of it. There have been discussions along those lines in regard to trying to come up with innovative ways to get housing back into the inner city.

I think it should be pointed out too right now that with new home purchases right now, people can get into some homes with a very, very minimum down payment. In fact, I believe in some areas the down payment can be as low as 5 percent and, of that 5 percent, 2.5 percent of that can be taken back in a form of sweat equity that can go towards the purchase of that house. In essence, the person is coming down with 2.5 percent of the purchase price as a down payment on some of these homes. That becomes very attractive, I would think, for some home buyers in that this type of financing can be arranged and is available. If you are looking at a home that is, for example, $50,000, with a 2.5 percent down payment you are looking at only about $1,250. So that can make it quite attractive for someone to move into a new home.

I think that there are ways of looking at getting into the market. As I mentioned before, I do recall meeting with the inner city Housing Coalition in exploring some of these ideas. I believe one of the directions that came out of that was that the group was going to be doing some talking with the city and with the federal government. I believe that they are going to be developing a business plan and looking at bank financing and what type of arrangements they can make in regard to that.

They were looking at whether there was a foundation that could be involved with some of the funding in the government, like I say, to look at the three levels, what type of participation level they can look at. There is a direction or a movement to try to look at some of these availabilities for trying to generate inner city housing.

Mr. Martindale: I would like to wind up today by asking the minister if he could expand on his statement earlier on, when he was talking about devolution from the federal government to the provincial government, regarding selling off units, which I believe was what he said. Do you have any plans to sell off public housing units?

Mr. Reimer: When I say selling off public housing units, one of the things that we look at is our surplus stock. We have, in the rural area, a fair amount of homes that are stand-alone entities in the rural area where we have had overtures of people wanting to buy these, people that have been long-time residents, people that are in the communities that have lived there for quite a while, and they have shown an interest in buying these homes.

When we were involved previously with the federal government as our partner, there was very little latitude or very little room for us to make innovative arrangements for the so-called selling off, if you want to call it, of some of these places in the rural areas. What has happened is since communities become aware that we now are the sole decision makers, they have come forth with suggestions and saying, can we entertain with you the idea of taking over or buying some of these houses or row houses or complexes within our town so that we can retain a sense of ownership for our people that want to stay within our own towns and within our own communities. We have said to them, certainly we are willing to sit down and talk with you, we are willing to try to work out some sort of arrangement for ownership or for sponsorship with you.

Those are the type of things that I think make it quite exciting for us to get involved with some of the communities that are looking at wanting to have ownership. We find that a lot of the communities want to keep their, a lot of it is seniors again, that want to stay within the community. They feel that they have been raised in that community, they have lived in that community, and they do not want to move. The townspeople are saying, well, let us see whether we can utilize some of this public housing that is there and either buy it or make some sort of arrangement with Manitoba Housing so that we can utilize it so that the seniors can stay in there. It is surprising how there is a fair amount of single-family homes and, like I say, the majority of them are in small towns throughout all of Manitoba. We have had overtures from various communities where they have said that they are willing to look at some sort of arrangement, and we entertain those.

Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Burrows, with a very, very short comment.

Mr. Martindale: Does the minister have any plans to sell off public housing units in Winnipeg? Yes or no.

Mr. Chairperson: The time being six o'clock, committee rise.