h032_5

Introduction of Guests

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty Grades 11 and 12 students from River East Collegiate, and from the Muriel Snowden International School in Boston, Massachusetts, who are here with the Maple Leaf Exchange Program. The students are under the direction of Mr. Robert Carpenter and Ms. June Robinson. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson).

Also, we have thirty-two Grades 4, 5 and 6 students from Montrose School under the direction of Mrs. Judy Harapiak. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Radcliffe).

We also have forty-eight Grades 5 and 6 students from Landmark Elementary School under the direction of Mr. Russ Dirks, Mr. Tom Koop and Mrs. Janice Peters. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).

Also, we have twenty-seven Grade 9 students from St. Boniface Diocesan High under the direction of Mr. Marcel Lizotte. This school is located in the constituency of St. Boniface.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Bill 202–The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act

Madam Speaker: It appears, although I am not absolutely convinced, that the wrong motion was read. So I will reread it into the record to ensure that it is accurate.

It has been moved by the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), seconded by the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that leave be given to introduce Bill 202, The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'arbitrage relatif aux services de pompiers et modifications corrélatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time.

Motion agreed to.

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ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Flood Conditions

Impact on Farmers

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, over two million acres of farmland may not be seeded this year due to the flooding that has taken place, as outlined by the minister a few moments ago in his statement. This could dramatically affect over 3,000 producers here in Manitoba. We know that there was more rain over the weekend, and we know from the minister's statement that we all should hope for good weather.

I would like to ask the First Minister (Mr. Filmon): what are the contingency plans for so many producers that are so directly affected and impacted by this flooding?

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I this morning met with the executive of the Manitoba agricultural producers organization to discuss the issue that is of very serious concern to all of us in Manitoba. Regrettably, the weather did not let up in that region over the weekend. I also had a luncheon meeting with the chairman of the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation. It is simply too early at this stage to assess the overall situation, but I want the House to be assured that all agencies involved in farmer protection, essentially the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation–I know that my colleague the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), along with his organizations, have been in the region not once but on numerous occasions and are monitoring the situation on a daily basis.

Drainage Issues

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I can appreciate the answer from the minister, but he knows that producers want to know specifics that will be available to them. I know members opposite met with producers over the weekend as well as along with our member, the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), on this issue, and they really want to know where they stand and where the government is going.

Madam Speaker, there is a real concern we are hearing with the drainage from neighbour to neighbour and from rural municipality to rural municipality. The flood report, the Water Commission report, last year, tabled in this House, talked about this issue as well, calling on the provincial government to take leadership. Is the provincial government taking leadership on these drainage issues on behalf of the situation in that area of the province now and in potential areas in the future?

Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Yes, Madam Speaker, I certainly indicated previously in this House and am glad to indicate again that we are prepared to work with the municipalities and the individuals where emergency situations arise. But I think the Leader of the Opposition is raising a much bigger picture, which is the enforcement of drainage by-laws, whether it is a by-law that the municipality is enacting or whether it is under the various water acts within the province. I have indicated publicly several times that the province and the municipalities must work together to deal in an organized and planned manner with this or there will be downstream flooding that will become uncontrollable. There are many examples of where that co-operation has been excellent, but there are situations that we are well aware of where the drainage acts are being challenged in the courts.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I was referring specifically to Recommendation 37 in the Water Commission report dealing with the flooding in the Red River Valley two years ago and the conditions under which the province would assume responsibility for emergency management from the local municipality dealing with drainage. I was wondering, after that report had been tabled, what action the government had taken in this regard and its application to the flooded areas now that we have raised.

A further report, Recommendation 35 and Recommendation 21 in the interim report from the Water Commission, recommends that reimbursement levels should be specified at the time the forecast is issued at a required level based on a formula. Given the Minister of Agriculture's (Mr. Enns) response and the statement today from the Minister of Natural Resources, I would ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): has there been any implementation of that recommendation by the government so that people would know more specifically what the reimbursement levels will be?

Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, there are a number of initiatives that we have undertaken as a result of the Water Commission report. In remembering the recommendation that the Leader of the Opposition references, it seems to me that we have always moved prudently in terms of any infrastructure that has been involved. We have always acted in a co-operative manner with the municipalities in order to deal with the issues as they arise. When disaster or near disaster situations arise, that open line of communication and effort to work co-operatively with the affected areas I think adequately demonstrates the willingness of this administration to assist in any way possible. Frankly, some of the damages that occur and are occurring currently in the southwestern part of the province are of an unprecedented nature in terms of overland flooding, as opposed to any works that may have been established on behalf of the municipality or the province. So we continue to offer them daily assistance in any way we can.

Flood Conditions

Compensation–Farmers

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, the farming situation in southwestern Manitoba is certainly very serious given that a large portion of land will not be seeded this year. Many farmers did not qualify for AIDA, many have taken out provincial recovery loans and many are covering huge debts. Without a crop this year, many will be out of business. The heavy rains are also affecting other parts of the province but not quite so seriously.

I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture what steps his government is taking to address this situation given that there is no current plan or program in place to compensate farmers.

Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I want to be very careful how I answer this question because memories are still very much with us that just about this time just a few short years ago, large acreages of our prime agricultural land in the Red River Valley were still under water, and, yet, in that tremendous entrepreneurial spirit that our farmers exhibit, at the end of the seeding season fully 97 percent, 98 percent of that land was in fact seeded. This is a different situation, and I understand that. I have every empathy for the situation that the farmers in southwestern Manitoba face. But to answer specifically these kinds of questions at this point in time when there are still three, four, four and a half, perhaps five weeks, weather permitting, for seeding operations to commence is premature. That is not avoiding the question; that is simply having the experience of a number of flooding situations in this province. We have to be able to assess the damage before governments can be in a position to respond.

Ms. Wowchuk: We certainly recognize that the situation in the southwest part of the province is different from the Red River Valley. But I would like to ask the minister: given that the government eliminated the penalty on the extended crop insurance program during the Red River flood, recognizing that they needed extended periods of time to seed, will the government consider waiving that penalty in this situation as well so that people are not penalized when they have to seed into the extended period after the deadlines?

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Mr. Enns: As I already indicated, both the chairman of Manitoba Crop Insurance and the general manager, Mr. Neil Hamilton, were in the area over the weekend, on Friday, and these and other suggestions that were discussed by the farmers will be given very serious consideration. There are a number of things that the corporation can do in response to the current situation and will do. Let me also add that I am informed, and it pleases me to know, that farmers from areas not as badly stricken, for instance the Red River Valley, are indicating to the Department of Agriculture their willingness to help with equipment, time and experience to help seed that crop should the weather make that possible later on in the season.

Ms. Wowchuk: We appreciate the help that other people are prepared to offer. We know that Manitobans are very considerate about other people in disastrous situations. But, Madam Speaker, this is a disaster that will put many people out of business if they do not get some assistance.

I would like to ask the minister whether he will consider the fact that we have to extend that crop insurance and we have to look at the areas that will still be under water where farmers will get no crop off, crop insurance will not help them, and there have to be some plans being made now. Are you making plans to help these people out?

Mr. Enns: My government has shown unprecedented levels of support for not just farmers but people in need, whether it is small businesses, homeowners in the Red River Valley or wherever that may occur. I have every confidence that that kind of consideration and support will be forthcoming under these circumstances.

Health Care System

Government Polls/Surveys

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, several years ago when the province was in the midst of a major crisis of waiting lists, the New Democratic opposition set up a help line; we wrote hundreds of letters; we did everything we could to try to educate the government that there was a problem in health care. The government, when they finally realized there was a problem, what has the government done? They have taken polls at public taxpayers' expense, and they have had an ad campaign at public taxpayers' expense. When one looks at the polls that were taken by the government, it is clear they were politically motivated, designed more to try to improve the health care of the Tory party rather than the health care of Manitobans. I would like to ask the minister if that is not the case.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, the member for Kildonan is wrong with most of what he puts on the record. He and I discussed this issue during Estimates over the course of the last week. At least I have his agreement that there is a time when government should be providing information, and I think he basically agreed through the Estimates process that it is important to provide information to Manitobans on our health care system. He disagrees I believe with the approach of doing that. I have found time and time again, whether it is out meeting with people, whether it is through surveys or polls or anything that is being done, that the people of Manitoba want to know information about their health care system. It is incumbent upon the government to provide that information. That is why we produced a brochure that went into every home right across Manitoba, to provide information on what is happening in the health care system, what some of the next steps are. So, again, I think it is very important that Manitobans receive quality, accurate information on what is happening in their health care system.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, in light of the minister's response, can he explain to the House why a question on the government Conservative poll that said people who attack the Manitoba health care system are more concerned with their own agenda than with improving the level of health care, what has that got to do with the minister's education campaign and improving the lot of health care of Manitobans?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to go through that poll question by question with the member for Kildonan. Again, it provides an awful lot of information about a number of issues relative to our health care system that is very important in terms of the kind of information that should be provided to Manitobans and in terms of helping us determine the priorities of Manitobans, both in terms of their perceptions and their needs. So, again, the member basically agreed last week that there is a need to provide information, and we will agree to disagree in terms of how to provide that information, but it is very important that Manitobans get information on their health care system to know why it is changing, how it is changing and what the impacts are on them. We believe in providing information, and we will continue to do that.

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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister, who had the distinction of polling last on the government poll for credibility in health care. But notwithstanding that, given that the Premier has talked about a new ethical standard for this government and it is about time that it starts, I wonder if the Premier will indicate to this House that the Conservative Party will reimburse the province for the cost of these political polls and for the cost of these political ads, because what they did was more inclined to try to help the health of the Tory party than the health of the province of Manitoba.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the hypocrisy of the members opposite knows no bounds. This is the group that wrote the book on government advertising. They spent $2 million advertising the Jobs Fund that does not have one job still in this province today. They spent a half million dollars advertising the benefits of Limestone. Major benefits were simply to get their government re-elected. They hired dozens and dozens of communicators on the public trough just to try and polish their image.

Point of Order

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, Beauchesne's 417 indicates the Premier does not have to answer the question, but he should very much address the issue raised. I specifically asked the Premier if the Conservative Party would reimburse the government for the political advertising that has been undertaken by the Department of Health, and the Premier, who is apt to do, is living back in the 1980s, which is his new policy, is not answering the question, is not prepared to deal with the question, and I ask you to call him to order, either deal with the question or let us get on with other questions in Question Period.

Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on the same point of order.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order. I know that the members opposite are very reluctant to have anyone talk about their record in government because it was such a dreadful record, which is why they continue to stay on the opposite side. Of course I did not see any of them rush to have the fees paid for the settlement that the people of Manitoba have to pay for one John Bucklaschuk, one of their cabinet ministers who cost us $2 million because of his political actions in the lead-up to the election campaign of 1986.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, this is getting to be an increasing pattern. Those of us who remember the Premier as the Leader of the Opposition, I wonder if he is not rehearsing for that role again. But the question was related specifically to the actions of his government. I think the people of Manitoba would like to hear answers from this Premier, while he still is in that office, on important matters of public record. So I would like to ask you to bring him to order.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Kildonan, I would remind the honourable First Minister to respond to the question asked.

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Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his response.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the New Democrats, when they were in government, did not reimburse the people of Manitoba for any of their political advertising, this is sheer hypocrisy. That is what I accept it as, and that is what the people of Manitoba recognize it as.

Athena Educational Partners

Minister's Review

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Education. Athena corporation of Montreal is currently negotiating with Manitoba school divisions to bring a daily taping of selected news items combined with commercial advertising into Manitoba class-rooms.

I wanted to ask the Minister of Education whether or not he has had the opportunity yet, taken the time, to review any of the sample tapings that are going to be broadcast to Manitoba schools.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): I think that the honourable member, through her Leader, has raised this issue before in an attempt to usurp the powers and responsibilities of school divisions. I think that we need honourable members opposite to be clear, whether they want us to act within our sphere of responsibility or to take over school divisions and all the implications of that.

Ms. Friesen: Would the minister undertake now to review those tapes and to confirm that, although each tape runs 12 minutes, no teacher uses such material without either debate or reinforcement of ideas, so that what school divisions in fact are saying yes to is not 12 minutes but, conservatively speaking, 20 to 30 minutes a day? Will the minister undertake to review that?

Mr. McCrae: I have discussed this matter on a number of occasions, and I am sure I will continue to do so as long as this matter is current and that school divisions are discussing it. I take an interest in all the things that are going on, but I have not made it my habit to make decisions at this level which ought to be made at local levels. That is why we have school divisions–I think the honourable member understands that–to reflect local concerns and to reflect local issues in local areas.

Now some school divisions are looking at the Athena proposal; some are not. That demonstrates the fact that the present system is working.

Ms. Friesen: Would the minister, who is still responsible for curriculum and for hours of schooling in Manitoba, tell the House which areas of curriculum are to be reduced to accommodate the daily half hour of selected, single-source news and commercial advertising?

Mr. McCrae: Unlike the honourable member and her party, I do not presume to tell school divisions how they are to organize their school year. We do have certain requirements from the provincial level, and we want to see that those requirements are met so that the whole system of meeting standards and that the tests that flow from that reflect the fact that the work is being done in our schools so that our children can be prepared for the kinds of opportunities that are being made available through the actions of the government of Manitoba for the past 11 years, multiplying many times over the number of job opportunities requiring skills.

Manitobans are going to be well placed because of new directions, because of parental involvement, because of setting standards and because of testing to those standards, and the school divisions are required to ensure that those directions are met. What they do with the rest of the time that is available to the schools is for them to discuss with their teachers, to discuss with their parent councils and with their school trustees and make decisions based on those discussions.

Paramedics

Mediation

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Labour. We in the Liberal Party see the benefits of trying to get both sides working together, seeing the benefits of working with our health care workers. My question for the Minister of Labour is: is the Minister of Labour, given the government is prepared to get involved by bringing in essential services legislation, prepared to talk to both sides and see if in fact they would be prepared to accept a mediator in order to resolve this situation in a positive way in which all sides and particularly Manitobans can win?

Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable colleague for the question opposite, because it gives me an opportunity to stand up in this Chamber and to tell my honourable colleague that we have been very pleased to appoint Mr. Wally Fox-Decent as a mediator in the current labour dispute with CUPE. We look forward to his report, which, as a preliminary suggestion or request, will be forthcoming on or about the 8th of June. So we can only hope that he will have the positive benefits that he had with the nurses collective bargaining.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the minister comments on my preamble but does not answer the question.

The question to the Minister of Labour: is the minister prepared to do what he has done for other health care professionals, recognizing that the city is asking the province to get directly involved? Is the Minister of Labour prepared to talk to the city, to talk to the union to see if in fact they would be prepared to accept mediation? We are talking about the paramedics.

Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I am glad that my honourable colleague opposite elucidated his question, because it gives me an opportunity to explain that in fact the role of the Minister of Labour in government is the keeper of the process. In fact, the government itself does not become involved in issues of substance, but rather when there is a collective bargaining dispute, calls upon different individuals who are a resource to our government on a conciliation basis or on a mediation basis or ultimately on an arbitration basis.

We do believe at the present time that the paramedics are in conciliation and that very good attempts in good faith are being made to solve this issue, and we look forward to a satisfactory completion.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary then to the Minister of Health, keeping in mind what the Minister of Labour has just said, the keeper of the process.

My question to the Minister of Health is: because the Minister of Health is responding to one side, how does that make it the keeper of the process? Does the Minister of Health recognize, as we do, the benefits of seeing if both sides would entertain having mediation, the paramedics and the city?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, surely the member for Inkster understands the collective bargaining process, that right now there is a conciliation officer who has been appointed to work with the two parties. There are still a number of options available to both of the parties, the City of Winnipeg as the employer and the paramedics and the ambulance attendants. They can both request a mediator be appointed, and if that were the case I am sure a mediator would be appointed. They can both request binding arbitration, again, and jointly go forward to binding arbitration. There are a number of processes available to ultimately resolve the collective bargaining process.

We introduced an amendment last week to deal with the very important issue of essential services, the protection of the public when it comes to the important issue of health care services, particularly ambulance services here in the city of Winnipeg. So you have an essential services amendment to deal with the protection of that essential service. At the same time, you have a collective bargaining process underway that still has a number of avenues available to reach a collective agreement through the collective bargaining process.

Manitou, Manitoba

Emergency Medical Services

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, again people in Manitou are worried about their ambulance services. Their concerns are that it could take up to half an hour or more in response time. When the minister met with his associate deputy minister, Sue Hicks, to receive the interim report of the Emergency Medical Services working group, did they discuss this problem in Manitou, and if so, what solutions can he report to the House coming out of this interim report?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I am not sure what the member for Dauphin is referring to in terms of an interim report. I indicated to him that we do have a working group of Emergency Medical Services with representation from the regional health authorities, from municipal organizations and from the Department of Health working on a report as it relates to ambulance and emergency services throughout all of Manitoba outside of Winnipeg.

I indicated in this House that I was expecting at the minimum an interim report or a final report sometime very shortly, and I am told that I can expect the final report by around the end of June. Through all of this time, I am well aware that the regional health authorities continue to focus on providing the ambulance services to all of the communities, and they also continue to focus on the importance of the volunteer system within our ambulance system, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, that does not give the level of support to people in Manitou that they would like to hear. If this minister then has not received this interim report, can he indicate to the House when he will receive that report or when he is expecting a final report? Can he clear up some of this confusion?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I am not sure the member was listening to my first response, but currently the distribution of emergency medical services throughout Manitoba under the RHAs has not changed. There are currently some 88 licensed EMS delivery sites outside of the city of Winnipeg, and they continue to focus on providing that very important service. As I indicated to the member for Dauphin, there is a committee that has been struck to provide recommendations on the provision of emergency medical services outside of Winnipeg, and I am now expecting their full report by the end of June.

Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, then why will this minister not indicate to regional health authorities that he will not approve plans to amalgamate and reduce emergency medical services to the community of Manitou at least until he hears from this Emergency Medical Services working group whenever it is going to report?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, Madam Speaker, as I have indicated to the member for Dauphin, RHAs, the regional health authorities, are represented on the Emergency Medical Services working group along with municipal organizations, and they continue to focus on providing ambulance services until that final report is submitted and until we determine what those recommendations are and how to deal with this very important issue on a go-forward basis. As we have said in this House on many occasions, maintaining the strong volunteer commitment and volunteer base we have throughout all of Manitoba is a very important part of any changes that will be put in place on a go-forward basis for our ambulance services.

Public Accounts Committee

Reforms

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, in the March 31, '97, report of the Provincial Auditor and the March '98 report of the same Auditor, the Auditor made strong recommendations about the absolutely dismal state of Manitoba's Public Accounts committee. He said it complies the least of all provinces in Canada with the guidelines, and he recommended strongly that action be taken to reform this committee.

Can the Minister of Finance indicate why absolutely nothing has been done on two successive reports of the Provincial Auditor to have this committee's function strengthened and brought in line with other provinces?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, the member for Crescentwood is factually incorrect in his assertions. We have attempted to have work done at the committee level with the members of the opposition, and they have yet to show any interest in developing some plans regarding the Provincial Auditor's report.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain why the previous minister made a commitment to get this process going more than a year ago? He has broken that commitment. Will this Finance minister do the same thing and break any commitment he makes in regard to the Public Accounts committee?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am assured that our House leader has communicated with the opposition an interest in developing some proposals, and we have yet to hear back from them.

Mr. Sale: Will the minister, who knows that this side of the House offered co-operation two years ago, last year, last February, finally take some action, call a committee meeting, set up the committee to modernize the accounts? Will he be accountable for a change, Madam Speaker?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, as I indicated in my first answer, the member for Crescentwood is factually incorrect, and we have made some attempts to have this committee called and have yet to hear from the House leader of the official opposition.

Versatile Farm Equipment

Impact of Case Corporation Sale

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, New Holland owned by Fiat has bought Case Corporation. Case operates a heavy-duty tractor plant in North Dakota with similar operations to the Versatile plant here in Manitoba. This purchase represents both an opportunity, we believe, or a potential risk to the workers in the plant here in Manitoba.

Has the Premier been in touch with the owners of Versatile to explore the positive opportunities for Manitoba and deal with the potential risk for this new takeover?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I have, during the past few days, obviously been involved in the Western Premiers' Conference and have not been at my desk since the announcement was made. Having said that, we have over the years established an excellent relationship with New Holland. I have met with their principals, including their CEO, at their head office in London on several occasions. We have maintained, through that process, such a good relationship that they closed down a factory in Gent, Belgium, and moved their two-wheel-drive tractor plant here to Manitoba. Other measures were made in recognition of the high quality and the work done here as well as the competitiveness of our economy.

So we will continue to follow up on that matter using the good relationship that we have built with them to ensure that we do everything possible to turn this into an even better opportunity for the Manitoba plant.

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Mr. Doer: We look forward to the job level of that plant returning to the 1,100 jobs hopefully in the future with these potential opportunities. Over a hundred Manitoba firms supply materials to the Versatile plant in this province. Again, the workers at the plant are very concerned. They are optimistic about the opportunities; they are also concerned about the risk with the situation of plants in the United States owned by Case and possible impact on their jobs.

Has the Premier met with the union representatives, the worker representatives also, to deal with some of their concerns and their ideas of how Manitoba can best put our case forward to ensure a continued employment at the plant and expanded employment at the plant in the future?

Mr. Filmon: I am sure that our government would be interested in hearing the views of the union representatives. We know that major companies such as Monarch Industries, Vansco Electronics and others have a very significant stake in the future of the Versatile Ford New Holland plant. I certainly believe that we will be following up on those opportunities.

Mr. Doer: Would the Premier meet directly with the employee representatives, with the auto workers organization, who have a number of ideas of how we can deal with the creative opportunities for Manitoba in the Versatile plant given the situation with the North Dakota plant which they are investigating? Would the Premier be willing to meet with the employee representatives to again have both the approach to management, which the Premier is willing to undertake which we would appreciate, and work with the employee representatives as well?

Mr. Filmon: Given the pressures on my time, I am not certain that I would, but I would say that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Tweed) or other representatives of government would be happy to do so.

Public Housing

Income Limits

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I have raised a number of times with the Minister of Housing the fact that working families living in Manitoba Housing are paying at times more than market rent for their rental apartments. Based on information he gave to me from the devolution agreement which says, and I quote from Schedule D: in urban areas, housing income limits will be developed at least for one-, two- and three-bedroom units for residential accommodation, I want to ask the minister: what is the income limit for a three-bedroom unit in Manitoba Housing, and can he tell us if the commitments under the schedule have been kept?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, in the calculation of rental that is charged by Manitoba Housing in our public housing units, it is all based upon the individual's income. The rent is calculated as a percentage of the income. If it is a bachelor unit, it is 25 percent; if it is a family unit, it is 27 percent. So, whether it is a three bedroom or a four bedroom, it is based upon that individual's income. If it is a family unit, like I mentioned before, it would be 27 percent of that individual's income.

Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, it is unclear if the minister does not answer the question because he does not understand it–

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose a supplementary question.

Ms. Cerilli: I am asking the minister about the requirements through CMHC for housing income limits. I have written him a letter of a family that lives in St. Vital that is paying $713 for rent. Can the Minister of Housing explain why the rent for this family in public housing is more than $200 more for a three-bedroom apartment than what they could rent in the market? What is the limit?

Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, as I mentioned in my first answer, the rental is based upon a percentage of the income. If a person makes more money, they are naturally going to be paying more rent. You know, it is based on their income. The amount that the member has mentioned is relative to the income that this couple is paying. The market rent that might be available in the area may be less or more, but the rent from Manitoba Housing is based on a percentage. As I mentioned, if the person is making more money or his income is relatively high, the rent that they will pay will be 27 percent of that income.

Ms. Cerilli: I want to ask the minister if he has read the latest copy of West Central Street's magazine which says that Manitoba Housing is like Hotel California. You can check out, but you can never leave.

Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister if he does not understand the problem that people who enter Manitoba Housing, who are on social allowance, then they find a job, their income goes up, but because they are paying 27 percent of their rent geared to income, they cannot move. What program is in place by this government to address that problem where now tenants are paying more to Manitoba Housing than they would in the private market?

Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, in Winnipeg there are various areas where there are rental accommodations available for people. If people feel that the rent that is being charged is out of line with what they are wanting to pay because of the percentage that we charge and because of the formula rent, there are private accommodations, there are other accommodations that can be sought out in other areas. But the idea of the percentage rate is a rate that we charge on our rental accommodations, and that is the rate that we have been charging and we will continue to charge.

Public Accounts Committee

Reforms

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Finance knows full well that it is he who calls the Public Accounts committee. The Minister of Finance tried to give the House information that there had been approaches made asking for such meeting. That is fundamentally untrue. Will the Minister of Finance explain why he and his predecessor have broken commitments to reform the Public Accounts committee? Will he explain why this Public Accounts committee is the worst in Canada and has not met for more than a year? Will he get on his feet and explain the failure of his government in this regard?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, contrary to what the member has indicated, these arrangements are worked out between the House leaders, and I know that approaches have been made to the House leader for the official opposition. My understanding is a significant response has not come back.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, we have been asking for a reform process for more than two years for this accounts committee. What is the government afraid of? Why will it not let Public Accounts function like a standard Public Accounts committee? What is the minister afraid of?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, the honourable member has never been a great fan of process, and these arrangements are made between the House leaders. My understanding is that the House leader has indicated to the House leader of the official opposition that we are willing to meet and he has not responded at this time.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

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