Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Health. Does the honourable Minister of Health have an opening statement?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Mr. Chairman, yes, I do. As we approach the millennium, it is an honour and a privilege today to present the Estimates of the Department of Health for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2000. Today I am asking this committee to support my department's request for $2,119,306, 400 inclusive of capital and operating expenditures. This represents about $194 million over last year's budget. It represents an increase of 10 percent, far above the inflation rate. It also represents our ongoing commitment to quality health services for all Manitobans. I certainly note that a large majority of this House voted just yesterday to approve our 1999 budget. We have recognized a need and are responding to it with unprecedented new resources, more than $2 billion in the context of a comprehensive plan.

First, I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank on behalf of Manitobans the ongoing work and dedication of the many health care providers in the provision of health services to their fellow Manitobans. I also want to acknowledge the dedication and commitment of the staff and boards of regional health authorities in developing and co-ordinating local health services specific to the needs of regional residents. I am pleased to acknowledge the tremendous progress made by the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, the Winnipeg Community and Long Term Care Authority and the regional health authorities over the course of the last one to two years.

Mr. Chairman, I want to provide the context for this unprecedented Health budget. Health care is a high priority for our government, as it is for the people of Manitoba. It is too important for Manitobans and Canadians to be the subject of rhetoric and empty posturing. When the health care system makes the news day after day, it is all too easy to point fingers and to be negative, but if we are honest and fair, we all know that the health systems of Saskatchewan and British Columbia, the health systems in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, the health systems of every other province and territory are facing many of the same challenges that we are facing right here in Manitoba. That is why today I want to emphasize the positive.

Mr. Chairman, health care now represents approximately 35 percent of the Manitoba provincial budget. It is by far our largest single expenditure. It is a higher priority for us than almost any other province in Canada, and it has been sound management over many years that has allowed us to make health care such a high priority. If over the years our government had not stressed the importance of building a strong economy and getting our financial house in order, we would not have been able to secure and improve the quality of life in Manitoba. But now, with consistent balanced budgets and a vibrant economy, we can protect and enhance the services that are so important to Manitobans.

Our plans make this commitment. We are determined to maintain and sustain our health care system for now and for the new millennium. For example, we are recognizing and supporting our health care providers, our nurses, and supporting them in positive ways. That is why I intend to introduce legislation to update The Licensed Practical Nurses Act, The Registered Nurses Act, The Registered Psychiatric Nurses Act and The Physiotherapists Act. This existing legislation is more than 20 years old, but the role of nurses and other health care providers has changed dramatically.

Many nurses have told me that much of their frustration comes from not being recognized in the ever-increasing responsibilities that they have taken over the years. It is safe to say that nurses from 30 or 40 years ago would have some difficulty recognizing the profession today. The legislative changes will recognize these new roles and will include enhanced public representation on governing bodies and committees.

Last month I was also pleased to announce a $7-million nursing fund to assist in training and recruiting nurses. The fund will be overseen by a six-member committee and will help to make Manitoba a leader in making sure that there are enough nurses at the bedside and in our facilities.

The real story is fundamentally a good news story. Let me give just a few examples. Since becoming Minister of Health just a few months ago, I have talked to many Manitobans, to physicians, nurses, who have assured me that the service they received and have provided continues to be excellent. I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge that much of this credit goes to the dedicated professionals who work in our health care system even when it is undergoing the needed, and some might say, overdue changes. After all, it is people who are the key to success of our health plan. I am proud of the professionalism and additional efforts made by our health care workers during this transition period while we are putting the finishing touches of our plan into place. They are placing Manitobans first, and I am committed to making sure that we can continue to keep these dedicated professionals and that we can continue to attract the health care workers that we need.

In addition to the nursing fund I already mentioned, nursing issues are being addressed by attracting more nursing students and exploring incentives to attract more nurse specialists. I am pleased that nursing programs are now offering more courses at rural and northern sites. I am also pleased that employers are converting more part-time and casual nursing positions to full-time permanent positions. As we have outlined in our plan, more physician specialists are being attracted in high-demand fields such as anesthesia and neurology. Allied health professionals have been added and will continue to be added to support rehabilitative care and other important areas of patient care.

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In 1997 our government put in legislation to recognize the profession of midwives. I was pleased to be able to follow up on The Midwifery Act with an announcement last week of over $1 million to support the first 20 midwifery positions. This is true and solid commitment.

We are also accelerating the recruitment of doctors for rural and northern areas. Medical students have available to them a program offering loans in return for services to communities where doctors are needed. To encourage more medical students to consider rural practice, Manitoba Health also offers paid summer work experience with family doctors in rural areas.

One of the interesting things that I have learned recently is that studies have been done which show that physicians who have had rural and northern experiences tend to view them very positively. So often the decision to stay or go has little to do with money but in some cases has something to do with lifestyle preferences or other family choices. We certainly need to do everything that we can to support physicians and their families in rural and northern practices.

Some of the members of this committee may remember that when we began the process of restructuring the health system, our government made a commitment to strengthen community care. We are meeting that commitment. Our Continuing Care Program now has almost tripled its budget. We have added significant numbers of long-term care beds. We have initiated many exciting new examples of delivering services closer to home where people live and work.

I have talked with many seniors who have told me that they want to live independently as long as possible regardless of the health-related challenges that they might face. The Support to Seniors program consists of 226 projects at a cost of $3 million annually. Manitoba Health has recently added $445,900 for development of 26 new and 32 expanded support services to seniors projects. These projects assist Manitoba seniors in maintaining their health, remaining in their community longer and reduces the need for other home care services.

Another area where we are fulfilling our plan for the new millennium is mental health. Over the past 10 years our mental health system has become a much more community-based, people-focused service. With new community services in place, more Manitobans with mental illness are able to remain independent. This approach helps them build a local support system to cope more successfully as they continue to build their lives within their community. What I especially like about this approach is that it is people helping themselves and each other with our support.

Another example of innovative community-based approaches resulting from the implementation of our plan is the new mobile breast screening service which was put into place this past summer. The program takes two mammogram units on the road to communities throughout all of Manitoba. With this equipment, 11,000 more women can be screened each and every year. In fact, in this year alone we expect that more than 33,000 women will be screened under this program alone, as many as in the last three years combined.

Providing services closer to home where people live and work has also meant developing new ways of doing business. A key example is the way in which we have created a regional structure for managing and delivering health services. As outlined in our plan, there are many advantages to the new regional system. For example, we are linking prevention, population, health and treatment into a seamless continuum of care. We are using evidence-based decision making and creating a broader base of service planning and delivery. We are providing more consumer choice and involvement.

One interesting new option for seniors is companion care. Companion care will be another new choice for people who can no longer live independently. Through this Winnipeg Community and Long-Term Care Authority program, care providers welcome older people to live in their homes where they will receive many of the services offered by a personal care home as well as home cooked meals, use of kitchen and garden and the opportunity to live as part of a family with dignity and respect. We all know that companionship and a sense of belonging are essential elements in keeping people healthy. No institution, no matter how good, can substitute for the kind of companionship found in a family setting.

I acknowledge that there are things that still remain to be done. Just recently I was proud to announce, together with the honourable Bonnie Mitchelson, $1.1 million in new funding for better services for speech, language, physiotherapy and occupational therapy for children. More than 1,000 preschoolers will benefit. This additional funding is part of a continuing goal to reduce waiting lists for children's therapy. The children will benefit from children's outreach therapy programs partnered with the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities and the Rehabilitation Centre for Children, in addition, rural and northern regional health authorities with the expanding speech and hearing services for children.

We are also expanding rehabilitative and therapy services for seniors. In fact, one important example was the announcement that we made on April 12 to provide $400,000 to expand rehabilitative and therapy services for stroke patients in Winnipeg personal care homes.

I also know that more needs to be done to protect women's health. Thanks to a $3.5 million grant for the Health Sciences Centre Women's Hospital, the hospital will be constructing 17 new, specially equipped birthing rooms for labour, delivery and post-partum care. The result is that mothers will be able to deliver their babies in a more comfortable home-like setting.

Less than a year ago our government contributed $5.6 million in funding for the development of a comprehensive breast health program. We will provide funding to develop a new site for the program and for a rapid-access diagnostic centre. This leading-edge centre will bring breast expertise and services to one site and the time it takes to diagnose a suspicious lump will go from weeks to days.

Our plan also includes the development of a comprehensive strategy to address aboriginal health. The strategy will establish policies related to aboriginal health which will include establishing a strategic direction for aboriginal health and wellness within Manitoba Health and throughout the government of Manitoba and its agencies, also to provide leadership to, and to work with, all partners to promote aboriginal health and wellness; as well, to provide leadership to all government departments and agencies to ensure that aboriginal health is provided in a co-ordinated manner and that resources are maximized and to create a comprehensive analysis of priority aboriginal health issues with all partners participating in this process; as well, to set priorities for and allocate funds to programs and projects that promote aboriginal health and wellness. Negotiating source of funds must be a priority of both the federal and provincial governments; as well, to partner with governments, government departments, agencies, aboriginal organizations and the private sector to ensure that aboriginal peoples have access to opportunities for good health; as well, to present a comprehensive negotiation strategy to the federal government in all areas that concern aboriginal health and wellness.

We are seeking outcomes, as well, Mr. Chairman, a healthy aboriginal population that is based on the determinants of health; as well, increased family and community involvement in health and wellness and, as well, sustainable programs and services that demonstrate consistency with the goals of achieving a healthy aboriginal population. We know that the health and well-being of every person is impacted by many factors, including prosperity, income and social status, education, social support networks, employment, working conditions and so on.

We also know that the physical environment, clean air, safe drinking water, housing, are all important parts of health factors. We know the important role that healthy child development plays. Only a part is played by biology and genetic endowment. So while health care is important, it too plays only a part in health and wellness. Many of these factors are influenced by some of the living conditions of our aboriginal people while under federal jurisdiction. It is clear that the health status of aboriginal populations will require partnerships between the federal and provincial governments, the aboriginal leaders, and those programs capable of generating holistic solutions.

Another area where I acknowledge that we need to do more is to give Manitobans even faster access to tests and treatments. That is why one of the highest priorities for our government, and certainly for me, is to reduce waiting lists. I am committed to making sure that our access to service is among the best in Canada. Two new MRI machines will help us provide more than 3,500 new scans this year alone. Our capacity for CT scans has increased by about 15 percent, and with the expansion of ultrasound services about 8,700 more procedures can be performed this year. Additional funding for cardiac care will provide echocardiograms for 3,000 more adults and 300 more children, and cardiac catheterizations for 800 adults.

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Bone density services have been introduced into Brandon, and have been expanded in Winnipeg. More than 8,000 additional screenings can now be done each year. As we move toward a population that is aging, an increasingly important quality-of-life issue is the provision of hip and knee replacement surgery. I am committed to providing faster access to hip and knee surgery. That is why there will be a $7.8-million increase for orthopedic surgery. Up to 600 more Manitobans could receive faster relief from hip and knee problems this year alone.

But, Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned before, one of the pressures that the system will be facing is the complications resulting from diabetes. I am pleased that we have recently expanded our dialysis capacity by 15 percent, which is making it possible to provide 15,000 more treatments annually to meet the growing demands. Dialysis services have been added in Ashern and expanded in Portage la Prairie and The Pas. In the coming years, we will continue to meet the challenge of diabetes faced by a growing number of Manitobans, but prevention is by far the most important way to protect the quality of life of Manitobans at risk of this disease. Diabetes is the No. 1 cause of blindness in Manitoba, and this summer we will be working with the regions to develop a province-wide program for the prevention and support of diabetic eye disease.

Another critical priority for us and for our government is to relieve hospital overcrowding. Hospitals should be used for what they were intended, as places for acute care. This coming year, we will be adding more than 600–in fact, with the additional capital announcement as part of the Health capital budget, we are now up to 850 net new personal care home beds to provide better accommodations for people needing long-term care who are now in acute care beds. Let me repeat, we have tripled the budget for home care since we began restructuring, and we will continue to enhance this program which is so vital to relieving demand for hospital beds. Our plan also encompasses exciting new approaches for emergency care. Misericordia's 24-hour urgent care centre is a new service that is taking the pressure off Winnipeg emergency rooms, and is contributing to improved access to health services.

I also wanted to briefly mention some of the highlights of our $123-million capital program for our province in the upcoming year. This capital program is the result of extensive consultations with communities and regional health authorities. In total, the capital program will support over 36 new projects, including examples such as major redevelopment of Beausejour and Gimli hospitals, replacement facilities in Carberry and Emerson, new obstetrics and a neonatal intensive care unit at Brandon General Hospital, a new personal care home in Neepawa, 40 additional beds in Morden and Winkler and 160 beds in southeast Winnipeg, five new primary health care facilities, a new facility for the Rehabilitation Centre for Children for ambulatory care for disabled children, major renovation at St. Amant Centre, six bed pediatric extended treatment unit at the Health Sciences Centre Children's Hospital, new nursing station at Wabowden, renovation of neonatal intensive care and obstetric services at Brandon General Hospital, 20 bed expansions at Tabor Home in Morden and Salem Home in Winkler, the integrated health facilities at Emerson and Carberry I have already mentioned, renovations to the Flin Flon Hospital to support dialysis, chemotherapy and other health services, redevelopment of outpatient, radiology and laboratory areas of The Pas Health Complex, an addition to Rest Haven personal care home in Steinbach.

In addition, the capital program supports modifications of existing space for new uses, assessments of new project proposals, addresses building maintenance and safety issues and addresses new equipment to help to reduce waiting lists.

Another important area where we are improving access to health services is through primary health care, the basic care that is the first line of defence in the treatment of illness and in the promotion of health. Several primary health care models are being tested in Manitoba, including four community nurse resource centres. For example, we have already implemented the Aboriginal Health and Wellness Centre, and several additional primary health care centres around the province are in the planning stages. Examples of such initiatives include proposals for the Francophone centre and primary health centres in other communities. But no matter how good our illness care system becomes, it is far better to keep healthy than to suffer the burden of illness or injury.

The Manitoba government has been a leader in reducing incentives to smoke through our antitobacco smuggling initiatives. I am told that this has been a major factor in slowing the growth of tobacco use among Manitoba children and youth. Mr. Chairman, I already mentioned our challenge in preventing and treating diabetes. It is important to find ways to encourage good health at the earliest age. This approach also makes good economic sense because obviously it helps reduce the long-term demands on our health care system.

Let me just list a few examples of the innovative programs that help families raise healthy children and that lead to the promotion of good health. Women and Infant Nutrition, WIN, provides up to $65 per month to help women on social assistance eat well during pregnancy and the first year of their child's life. Stop FAS works with women at high risk for delivering babies with fetal alcohol syndrome. BabyFirst funds visits by public health nurses and home visitors to help new parents provide good care and nutrition, and EarlyStart helps families meet the ongoing health and development needs of growing children.

Another important area of health protection in keeping Manitobans healthy is preventing the spread of infectious disease. We are expanding vaccination programs to fight infectious illness, such as measles, flu and hepatitis B. To help agencies stop the spread of HIV, our government provides about $1 million annually in funding and has established a province-wide co-ordinating committee.

So, Mr. Chairman, I want to acknowledge that as a new Minister of Health I am building on foundations that were laid by my predecessor. I am proud to continue the work of building on a plan to ensure the system is here today and into the future. We are very fortunate in Manitoba. Our economy is strong, our fiscal house is in order. We have the ability to build on very strong foundations. If we all work together, if we have the will and if we have the vision, we will build the health system that Manitobans need and deserve. So, in the new millennium, we will need to continue to make new choices and decisions. All our efforts are aimed at one goal, a high-quality health system that is sustainable for now and for the future.

I want to remind all of us that the health system is far too important for narrow interests. We all have a responsibility to avoid being unduly alarmists or negative. This is the time to build not to destroy, that is what Manitobans expect of us, that is what Manitobans deserve, and that is certainly the path to a new millennium that we can all share.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to make a few opening remarks.

Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Has the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Kildonan, any opening comments?

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Chairperson, normally during the course of Estimates debates, I have forgone the opening statement portion, but I could not help but make some notes respecting the minister's comments and thought that I should reflect upon some of the minister's–

An Honourable Member: You voted for it.

Mr. Chomiak: You know, the member for Roblin made a very good point. He indicated we voted for it. I want to remind the member for Roblin that almost every initiative that I heard from–Roblin-Russell–every initiative I have heard from the minister's mouth at one time or another was recommended by members on this side of House, not last year, not the year before, not the year before that, nor the year before that, but going as far back as certainly 1993 and earlier. I would like to go through that.

Never, I do not think, in the history of this province have we seen so many health announcements. The health announcements that we have seen in the last month or two by this minister and this government dwarf anything they have done for 11 years. Now, does that suggest something to you, Mr. Chairperson? Does that suggest that perhaps there may be a political event or some other event that might be on the horizon? I suggest that.

In fact, I want to go further. Had the government listened to some of the initiatives we had suggested earlier, we would be in an election today, because you would not be facing terrible poll results amongst the people of Manitoba with respect to how you have handled health care for the past 11 years. If you had only listened to some of the initiatives that we had pointed out, you would not have been so busy the last two months on a daily basis literally making announcement after announcement after announcement of programs that we had recommended.

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I want to go through them point by point so that the minister does not suggest somehow that we are being unduly negative. If we are being unduly negative, it is only because of the frustration from members on this side of the House and from Manitobans of having to wait so long for the minister to put into place initiatives that we had suggested, that had been recommended, that we had implored.

The minister said in his comments that he wants to have amongst the shortest waiting lists for diagnostic tests in the country–laudable, support you 100 percent. That is why we voted for this budget. But I tell the minister and all members of this House that we pointed out five years ago that our waiting lists were amongst the longest in the country. Minister after minister denied that until last year when the Winnipeg Health Authority published its document that said: "our waiting lists for diagnostic services are the longest in the country."

An Honourable Member: Not anymore.

Mr. Chomiak: The minister says "not anymore." The minister knows full well that they denied it for four years. Only when we set up our waiting list line, only when we made our initiative in this Chamber did the government all of a sudden move.

Bone density scanner, the member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) mentioned to this government two years ago that there was a two-year waiting list for bone density scanner–two-year waiting list. Did the government do anything? The former Minister of Health promised and promised and promised. What did the government do? Yes, they put in a program. I believe it was during the course of the Portage by-election that they announced with $83,000 they would reduce the waiting lists from two years to zero. Subsequently they did, and then the lists went back up. Then last August the former Minister of Health made a long-term announcement finally to reduce bone density scanners. That was two years after it was raised in this House by the member for Brandon East, Mr. Chairperson.

The mobile breast-screening unit was raised in this House by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) four years ago. I sat here when she asked the former former minister to put in place a low-cost, effective way of doing breast screening for women in Manitoba. Now the government has announced this initiative. Yes, of course, we support that initiative. We have been calling for it for four years.

The minister talks about nurses and working with nurses. This is a government that laid off over a thousand nurses. This is a government that said there is no role for LPNs. Last Friday the government announced that they had a role for LPNs. They were going to re-educate LPNs and expand the capacity and the graduation levels of LPNs, something that was recommended in 1992, 1993, 1994, and I cited those three reports in this Chamber in Question Period yesterday. Of course we are going to support that initiative. We have been calling for it since 1992.

Hip and knee replacements–five years we have been calling for this. I held press conferences in this Legislature asking the minister–now, you know, it is not a complicated task to expand the number of hip and knee replacements in this jurisdiction. You simply have to expand the capacity of the operating rooms and the allocation which was capped under this government as to the number of hip and knee replacements particular specialists could do. It was capped at each facility. We said raise the cap; we said that four years ago. Now the government has discovered they are going to do 600 more. Of course we are going to support that initiative. We have been calling for it for four years.

The minister said he has discovered that physicians in rural and northern Manitoba can be attracted to those areas because of the lifestyle. The minister had a committee that studied that in 1994 and recommended changes along those lines. We said in this House five years ago that lifestyle was a key factor in attracting and maintaining physicians with respect to physician retention in northern and rural Manitoba. We talked to graduates who said we would go to rural and northern Manitoba, based on lifestyle choices, if certain parameters were put in place: the ability of doing ongoing education, the ability to further your education, the ability to take advantage of vacation provisions so that you were not on call 24 hours a day, et cetera. We made those recommendations. Of course we are going to support the government's initiatives. We have been calling for it for five years.

The minister talks about tripling the budget for home care. Do you think we are not going to support that? Mr. Chairperson, we told the government in 1992 that the way–if you are going to cut the acute care hospitals and you have $150 million a year cumulative, then you better put some of that funding back into home care. So what does tripling the budget do? It does not even go 30 percent of the way of the cutback in the acute care hospitals. Now the argument can be made, of course, home care is cheaper. We agree. Do you know that your capacity and your volume of home care patients only increased two years ago? You did not even increase your volume of home care. You were not even making up for the people who were removed from home care in the cuts of 1993-94. Are we going to support an expansion of home care? Of course we are going to support an expansion. Should you have eased it in earlier? Yes. Should you have done more–you know, it is almost as if the government had photocopied our 1995 election platform. It is almost as if they had done that, particularly with home care. It is almost as if they did that.

Companion care. Now, companion care, the minister has prompted it and the member says it is a great idea. I have reservations on companion care, and I want to see a lot more details on the companion care before we would be prepared to give our wholehearted support to it because it is a very difficult area to monitor and regulate, and given some of the concerns and problems that have occurred in the area of group homes, I have some concerns about the initiative. I want to see a lot more details before it is touted.

I mean, if I compare and if I use by analogy in companion care what the government has done with their new initiative for the care that is done at Rosewood and other centres, then I think that it is well that we question that particular initiative, because we had a case where we were providing Level 2 care and Level 1 care, and the government said they were getting out of Level 1 and Level 2 care. Now, subsequently, they are going back into Level 1 and Level 2 care, except they are now going back in it on a profit basis.

The minister said that they have now discovered and they have put money in the last few months into speech and language training. You know, the minister asked did we support it. We supported it in 1995 when we put it in our election platform as a result of a recommendation in the Postl report that said you had a two-year waiting list. The previous, previous minister put out a report in 1995 that talked about a two-year waiting list. We put it in our platform in 1995. We urged the government in '95, '96, '97, '98 and '99. Of course we are going to support the initiative today. It is about time, and as the minister has grown fond, I am certain, of my comments at press conferences, most of these ideas were fine four years ago.

The minister talked about expanding and providing services for stroke patients, another great initiative. I want to point out in this House that we questioned the government when it cut off the services of physiotherapists by providing Filmon Fridays to physiotherapists. We stood up in this House six years ago and said that was a bad decision. I note that the expansion of this program was one of the initiatives by that organization, Voices, that has been set up to deal with people in personal care homes. I urge the minister to contact and do work with that organization because they are a body that can be very helpful to this minister and this government with respect to personal care homes and individuals in personal care homes. I note that was one of their recommendations, and we support the government's initiative in this regard, after having criticized the government for cutting back the program six years ago.

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I noticed the minister did not say that they had a program for aboriginal health. I know the minister said, and I stand to be corrected, they are going to establish a policy for aboriginal people. Now, forgive me for being critical. I know the minister wants us to be positive, and we certainly have advocated an aboriginal health strategy for eight years. I do not want to slip onto the negative path, but I do note that the minister did not say there was an aboriginal health policy. I do note that after 11 years of government, the minister said they are going to establish an aboriginal health policy.

Now, midwifery, which has been supported by members of this side of the House since the government first mused about it eight years ago, continues to have our support. Of course it has our support, and it has had our support for eight years. I note we will have another press conference and there have been announcements about it, and I note in the last few months the money is going to be forwarded.

The minister indicated that there would be an increased number of echocardiograms as well as catherization for heart patients. I just want to point out to the minister that these recommendations were in a report in 1995 by doctors that was forwarded to the government and that we endorsed four years ago. Of course we support the initiative today. We supported it four years ago.

The minister talked about 815 new personal care homes, net. We have commented on that on a few occasions in this House, and I would probably venture to guess several hundred occasions outside of this House. I guess if there is a single failing, because there are many, of the health policy of this government, it was the failure to adhere to their own 1992 report that recommended 1,600 personal care home beds to be built in the city of Winnipeg by 1996 to deal with the aging population.

The government promised it in 1995, cancelled it, cancelled most of them. Subsequently we are in a mess. Probably the single biggest reason the hallways are crowded in the city of Winnipeg is because of the government's failure to proceed with the personal care home bed construction that was promised. Do we support it? Of course we support it. We supported it in 1992 when it was recommended. We supported it in 1993. We supported it in 1994. We supported the election campaign promise in 1995, and we have been calling for it every year since. Of course we support the initiative recently undertaken by the government in this regard.

Now, I would like to have the minister pay special attention to this particular issue, because it deals with something that I think is fundamental and perhaps illustrative of the government policy. I want to be positive, as I have been, as I have indicated throughout. All of these initiatives we have supported for five, six, seven, and eight years, and, of course, we support them today. But when the pediatric services were consolidated at Children's Hospital, it was pledged in this House that services would expand. We waited and we watched. Rather than have services expand, the latest publication for the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation indicated that the services for children had, in fact, contracted.

Now, let me be illustrative. The minister wants to talk about positive issues. I just want this to be illustrative of perhaps the mythology that is out there about politicization of health care. Several years ago there was a proposal at the Children's Hospital to increase the number of intensive care beds for children because there was not enough. At the time, Dr. Brian Postl was the head of Children's Hospital. A proposal went into the labyrinth at the Health Sciences Centre. Consequently children were faced with the prospect of being flown out of the province to have life sustaining or life enhancing surgery undertaken. There were several crises.

Last year during the Estimates process, with the WHA in attendance and the new regime, not in the Legislature but in the committee room, I asked where that six-bed proposal was. I was told it was somewhere in the process. Now the minister has announced, on the latest capital initiative, the six pediatric beds. Did I support it? Good heavens, I almost begged the minister last year to do it. I had a family member in attendance, and I read, and I tried to understand the process. I tried to understand how it was that a six-bed pediatric unit that had been recommended for years could not get done and kids were forced to fly out of the province. I just could not understand how a system could allow that to happen knowing that everyone in the system supported it.

The minister announced it recently. Did we support it? Of course we supported it. I still do not understand how and why it took years to have a six-bed pediatric unit established when the need has been demonstrated. It is beyond me, but I think it is illustrative of the frustration that Manitobans have with the health care system, but being positive I want to reiterate that we not only recommended it, we supported it, and, of course, we support it in these initiatives.

I noted the minister said, and I do not think it was a mistake in wording that there was a new way of doing business, and then he made reference to the regional health authorities. I do not think that was a mistake in wording, but I think it is illustrative of the approach to health care as a business and a bottom line, and I think that that is regrettable. One can perhaps pigeonhole other government activities and other government areas as a business, and I have seen many people come into government and politics saying if we only ran it like a business. The minister knows full well that you do not and cannot run it "like a business," because it just is not the bottom line. It is far more than that.

We have the new health authorities in place. We are very anxious and I want to tell you about the health authorities issue. I remember sitting in that committee stage and one thing was promised for health authorities. I remember the former minister–or was it the former, former minister, it escapes me–indicating that local facilities would have the option of buying into the process or not buying into the process. When the bill was passed and the new regime came in place, local institutions were told you can go in or buy into the process or not buy into the process, but the only problem is your debts will not be paid unless you come into the process.

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Indeed, last year at springtime we saw an example of this taking place when the hospitals in Winnipeg were told: the hospitals who purportedly had set up the frozen food system "on their own," were told by the Deputy Minister of Health that unless they came into the frozen food system, their debts would not be picked up by the WHA. I guess on the regional health authority, we had said all along that you were moving too quickly, that you were doing your needs assessment after you had put the structure in place, and we had grave difficulties with that, and we still have some fundamental difficulties with the operation of the regional health authorities.

The minister talked about the women's program, the stop FAS, the BabyFirst programs. I want to remind the minister and I agree, we agree, of course we support those programs. We supported them in 1995 when they were first recommended. Of course we support them, and I have to chuckle here, Mr. Chairperson, about the BabyFirst program where nurses are visiting first-time moms. That is a terrific program and when you cancelled the program in 1993, we asked you why you were doing that, and you cancelled the program. But you brought it back, you brought it back the last few months, and, of course, we are going to welcome the program, but we do not know why you cancelled it in the first place because it was a good program then, and, of course, it is a good program now. We have supported it consistently. You have not.

Primary health care centres, that came out of the Capital budget. We are awaiting a description of that. Perhaps that will be another three or four press announcements, depending upon when the election is going to be called. I might add, Mr. Chairperson, one can gauge when the election will be called because they are running out of announcements, unless they re-reannounce some that have been reannounced. They are starting to run out of announcements. They have pretty well covered most of the territory, but I suspect in terms of the primary–if we are going into a fall election, I suspect we are going to see several announcements about the primary health care centres, although I suspect we will see three or four announcements.

I want to see what the criteria are of those, and I want to see what initiatives. I know they have been recommended for many years, but, of course, they have been announced recently. I do not have to repeat my earlier comments. Like most of the initiatives, of course we supported them five, six, seven years ago and have consistently. It is only now that they have been announced by the government, so, of course, we would support these initiatives. But I want to see what the primary health centres look like.

You know, there will be a legacy of the government with respect to health care, and I think it could be probably summed up in about four areas. The first area is one of broken promises and last-minute initiatives leading up to a provincial election. The second will be one the minister did not mention in his comments, and that is frozen food. Now, I noticed that members opposite, most of the members opposite sent out letters to their constituents talking about all the money that would be saved on frozen food that could go into our health care system to use for other services like bone density scanners and like hip and knee replacements. The minister says it is a great idea. The only problem I have now is: how is it that the $2 million in losses rather than the $5 million in savings or the $7.5 million in savings or the $3.5 million in savings or the half of that in savings, whatever numbers you want to use that have come out of the Urban Shared Services, who is now paying the costs not only of the losses but of the fact that Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface have to pay for a system that they are not obtaining? What services are being cut back as a result of that initiative? Frozen food will be a legacy of this government.

Now, I am sorry to be negative, but I want to tell the minister we did not support your frozen food concept. We did not support your frozen food concept, and we do not continue to support your frozen food concept. [interjection] The member for Arthur-Virden–well, I want to continue on this positive vein, but I have to get negative here, and I have to tell the minister, we did not support frozen food and we still do not. I want to tell the minister, we did not support your SmartHealth initiative. Now, that is not to say we did not support the technological changes, but your SmartHealth hundred-million-dollar boondoggle we did not support. That is what it has amounted to, because the minister ought to know that by according to their own chart you should be realizing millions and millions of dollars in savings as we speak.

But I dare say continuing on the third legacy of this particular government and health care, just like frozen food, the savings are not there, and we told you that. So I do not want to be negative. I am trying to be positive. But I have to tell the minister, we did not support your SmartHealth concept as you illustrated it. We said it was a Cadillac. It is not a Cadillac, Mr. Chairperson. It is an Edsel, to carry the analogy. It is an Edsel or a Corvair. The Corvair was a problem. That is disputable.

But the point is, it seems to me that with a lot of the initiatives we did not support, our concerns have come to fruition. We warned you about problems with regional health authorities. We warned you about problems in frozen food. We warned you about problems in Smart Health, and they have come to fruition.

I do not want to be negative. No, I am trying to be positive, as the minister has indicated. I indicated during the course of my remarks, almost every single initiative that is positive that this government has announced has been something that we have proposed in most cases six, seven, eight years. I suppose we should be thankful that the government finally has recognized a lot of these initiatives and we are. That is one of the reasons why we voted for the budget because, good heavens, Mr. Chairperson, this was the only time that I have been in this Chamber since I have been elected that I have seen the government actually recognize many of the issues in health care and actually address them.

Do not forget, the minister–I do not question his integrity or his commitment, but I have sat here, the minister sat here when subsequent ministers said outright, said our information was wrong. They subsequently came around and agreed. I would like them to put on the record whether we were wrong when we said the bone density scanners were two years, whether we were wrong when we said the waiting lists were the longest in the country, whether we were wrong when we said you should not lay off a thousand nurses, whether we were wrong when we said that closing all those hospital beds and not opening personal care home beds would cause hallway line-ups, whether we were wrong when we said frozen food, whether we were wrong when we said Smart Health was a problem.

I defy the government to point out where we were wrong on those points. So we take a lot of credit as an opposition, and that is why we had no problems supporting–now, that is not to say that we support in sum total the allocations in this budget in terms of the funding. I have a real concern about the numbers. I want to spend some time on that during the Estimates. I am advising the minister we will be spending some time in terms of the financing and the numbers because there are some real concerns on our part about how the government has undertaken to finance and to illustrate some of the numbers that are proposed in this budget. As the former Finance minister, I am sure the Minister of Health (Mr. Stefanson) will have no difficulty in enlightening this committee as to some of the information. Indeed, I can recall the former Minister of Health indicating–when I had questions in this regard–to talk to the Minister of Finance and now I have the double opportunity since he is the former Minister of Finance. Am I being given the ultimate time signal, Mr. Chairperson?

In terms of administrivia, the minister will bring in his staff, I assume, when we next meet which will be, is it tomorrow or Thursday?

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Mr. Chairperson: That will be up to the House leaders. At this time the honourable member's time has expired. The House leaders will decide when we are coming back in to deal with the Estimates again.

The hour now being five o'clock, time for private members' hour. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker.