4th-36th Vol. 71B-Oral Questions

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon seven Grade 8 students from Ecole Viscount Alexander under the direction of Mr. Pat Bennett. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

* (1340)

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, we are pleased that the government has moved forward with a commission of inquiry. We are pleased that the process is public, and we are pleased under The Evidence Act that people will give testimony under oath.

But when the Hughes Inquiry was called to deal with the Pollock affair dealing with allegations in the justice system, the government said, and I quote--and I am going from memory here: that it is important to get somebody outside, somebody credible outside of the existing allegations to have and head the commission of inquiry. We think the logic of an election and allegations that are serious dealing with an election are of comparable, if not greater, but certainly at comparable authorities and ethics to deal and compel this Legislature, where the motion will be dealt with, to have a person outside of the initial investigation.

We certainly respect Mr. Balasko; he is head of Elections Manitoba, but a judicial inquiry or a judge experienced in this nature that is outside of the process is surely the next step that this Legislature has to take.

So I would like to ask the Premier: why did he use one set of investigative authorities with Mr. Hughes with the Pollock affair, and why is he now using Elections Manitoba to, in essence, reinvestigate with more powers some of the matters that they have already concluded there were no allegations to be substantiated?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the allegations that are being investigated are not ones against Elections Manitoba. They are allegations by people about the conduct of certain people in the last election campaign. Elections Manitoba is the independent body that has the integrity and the authority to deal with all complaints and all issues that are raised regarding the conduct of elections and election finances in our province.

They are the people who have the most familiarity with the act. They are the people who have the most knowledge about all of the nuances of elections and the manner in which they are to be conducted and the integrity with which they are supposed to be conducted. They are the people who have the greatest body of information and the greatest capability of conducting a thorough investigation.

It is not they who are being investigated or they who have been alleged in any way to have done anything wrong. It is, indeed, individuals against whom the allegations have been made, and that is the reason why I believe they are best positioned to do this investigation, to do this examination.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Premier should refer back to the former Minister of Justice's press release dealing with the allegations in the justice system. The courts were independent, the judges were independent, but the government and the Minister of Justice of the day did not appoint a judge here in Manitoba on issues of justice that were dealt with in the allegations against Mr. Harvey Pollock, because the issues dealt with independent Crowns, independent judges, the authority of the police, the laying of charges, the Minister of Justice, the Deputy Minister of Justice, the director of Prosecutions, and because they had already been dealt with in the court, the government appointed somebody external and credible to the first investigation to do the inquiry.

I would like to ask the Premier: why is not the integrity of an election, the very serious allegations arising out of these elections, why is that not worthy of the same outside, independent, credible review with an experienced judge, rather than a group of people who have already dealt with this issue once?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, among other things, the assertions and the comments made by members opposite throughout the week have been to the effect that Elections Manitoba did not have the tools at the time to do the job that members opposite wanted. This commission of inquiry gives them the tools that the member opposite said were lacking. The allegation, of course, also was that there was a time limitation. This corrects that. There is no time limitation. It is the specific mandate to go all the way back into the 1995 election campaign and deal with it. Those are the issues that we are dealing with.

If the member opposite is saying that Elections Manitoba does not have the integrity or the independence to deal with this, then that is an issue that obviously the members opposite are going to have to deal with, but this is an entirely different circumstance to the one that the member is attempting to compare to. It is apples and oranges. In this particular case, we are looking for the people who can do the most thorough and the most credible job of investigation under the two acts that are relevant to it, and in our judgment, there is no one who has a greater capability of that than the Chief Electoral Officer.

* (1345)

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done. You have a body of people who are nonpartisan whom we respect, who have already dealt and dismissed allegations that are very serious. There have been very serious new allegations, not made only by members here but members of the public, Mr. Sutherland, $4,913, today $3 a vote. I do not know whether Elections Manitoba investigated these matters before. We do not know. What I do know is they did deal with all the matters that they had before them at the time and they dismissed them.

I think it is important to have the powers which we support, and we congratulate the government for moving forward with The Evidence Act and the powers of an inquiry, but from Monday on we have always asked for an outside credible person who is independent of the first investigation, independent of the first investigation to conduct an investigation on the new and very serious allegations. Why can we not have the same review of the integrity of the electoral system and the credible outside review as we had in 1991 with the credibility of the justice system?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think the member opposite makes my point. He has said over and over again that these are new allegations, and that is obviously why the Chief Electoral Officer is in a position now to deal with those new allegations because they have been made public and they were not made previously, and therefore he could not have investigated them previously.

Number 2, the members opposite said that he needed new and expanded tools, obviously the power to subpoena witnesses and to compel evidence under oath. Those have now been given to him, as members opposite called for all week, and, therefore, this is the appropriate vehicle and the most experienced and I would argue the most credible person to do the job.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, we have seen increasingly, as this week has come about, the full story is only just beginning to become apparent of what happened in 1995. While we certainly welcome any inquiry, we want to make sure it is going to deal with the depth of the kind of activity, the corrupt activity, the kinds of actions we have seen now even today confirmed in the public conducted by senior officials, senior members of the Conservative Party in the last election.

I would like to ask the Premier whether this inquiry, for example, will look at the most recent allegation that Cubby Barrett, member of the PC Manitoba Fund, a key fundraiser, offered $3 a vote to Mr. Sutherland for every vote he obtained as a Native Voice candidate, a campaign, by the way, that was also financed by Mr. Barrett, amongst others.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): That will totally be within the scope of this inquiry, Madam Speaker, and they will have the authority to do just that thing.

Mr. Ashton: Well, we now also have sort of confirmed by Mr. Barrett himself the fact that he passed money to Mr. Sutherland. I am wondering--

Madam Speaker: Question.

Mr. Ashton: --and I would ask the question to the Premier, whether this inquiry will look at whether indeed, as appears to be the case, Mr. Barrett, once again a senior Conservative fundraiser, passed the money to Mr. Sutherland to run this fraudulent campaign that was an attempt to split the vote in the Interlake constituency. Will that inquiry look at Mr. Barrett's role in passing money?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, those allegations are absolutely within the scope of the commissioner to make that investigation and report.

* (1350)

Mr. Ashton: I am wondering whether this inquiry will also consider whether there is any connection between Mr. Barrett's receiving a liquor licence in Cross Lake after the election, after having been involved with a plot to subvert the electoral process that involved allegedly people including Taras Sokolyk, the Premier's right-hand person and campaign manager. Will it look at the fact of whether Mr. Barrett received any political favours for his political favour to the Conservative Party in this last election?

Mr. Filmon: If any of those allegations are demonstrated to have a relevance to this particular investigation, it is certainly, as far as I am concerned, within the scope of the commissioner to investigate.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I have been made aware of a witness who has sworn an affidavit placing Taras Sokolyk, Allan Aitken and Val Hueging at a meeting at PC election headquarters early in the election campaign, planning to recruit, run and support aboriginal candidates in the 1995 election. I have seen that affidavit. I believe it to be true. Given that this witness, like Darryl Sutherland and Kim Sigurdson, has expressed concern, serious concern about personal safety and wants a full, open judicial inquiry, will the Premier now order that inquiry to be headed by a judge, an experienced person in law?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I would hope that the member opposite would share all of that information with the commissioner. I know that, if there are issues of safety involved, he would certainly be sensitive to all of those matters and would handle this with the utmost credibility and the utmost discretion, as I believe he always has.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the Premier not agree that the allegations made to date, including the ones that I have just referred to, involve matters of complex criminal law and involve matters of the elections acts but require the experience of someone who understands corruption, understands fraud, understands the Criminal Code and is familiar with how justice can be obstructed and how that can be pursued in the courts? We need a judge to head this inquiry.

Mr. Filmon: Of course the member should know that the commissioner would do as any commissioner with any background would do, and that is to avail himself of any legal expertise required in the matter to ensure that all the relevant issues with respect to Criminal Code or any other infractions will be dealt with.

Mr. Sale: Will the Premier not understand that the public of Manitoba and the people involved in this case, vulnerable people, want a very broad scope for this inquiry that can include issues which may not at first blush seem to be specifically related to the election itself but may be related to planning to corrupt the election, may be related to rewards given pursuant to the election? Will they not understand that requires a broad scope and expertise which is not necessarily resident in Elections Manitoba?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I am sure that the Chief Electoral Officer, whose very existence depends upon his preserving the integrity of the electoral system in Manitoba and the credibility that he must maintain as well as the independence and the integrity that he portrays to the public, would be aware of any and all of those innuendos. I trust that the Chief Electoral Officer would be as concerned with, if not more concerned than the member for Crescentwood, all those issues.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, the Premier, in an answer to an earlier question today, said that he felt confident that Elections Manitoba or the Chief Electoral Officer, who has now been given the role of commissioner in this investigation, could do a thorough job.

I would like to ask the Premier how he believes that the Chief Electoral Officer in this time frame between now and September 30 is able to do a thorough job while at the same time he is required under legislation to prepare and produce and make public a preliminary map for the new electoral boundaries; to take into account all of the presentations that have been made up to this date in preparing and producing that map; holding public hearings, which he has said he is going to do by the middle of September throughout the province dealing with the boundary map; and making a report to the government on the electoral boundaries, all the while preparing for a possible election under the new Bill 2 which undoubtedly will be passed before the end of this session. How does he expect Elections Manitoba--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The member opposite may know that the office of the Chief Electoral Officer has been considerably increased in staff in recent years and that he also has within his budget, within his capability, the ability to hire investigative personnel as well as legal personnel and any and all staff that he requires for this.

The member opposite should be aware that we would not be making this assignment to the Chief Electoral Officer if it were not our understanding from his office that they have the capability and the resources to do the job.

* (1355)

Ms. Barrett: With absolutely no impugning of anything but the highest regard for the office of the Chief Electoral Officer and the person who holds that office, I would like to ask the Premier how he thinks that the Chief Electoral Officer whose additional people were hired to prepare for the new boundaries, the new maps and the implications of Bill 2 which will come into effect within 90 days of Royal Assent, which we expect to be within the next few days or weeks--he does not have the people to do this, and he should not be asked to be responsible for two hugely important things at the same time.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I can tell the member opposite that the government would not be asking the Chief Electoral Officer to do this if he were not of the view that he had the resources and he had all of the support to get the job done within the parameters. The matter has been canvassed with him, and we have been assured that he feels that the office and he have the capability of doing this assignment.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wellington, with a final supplementary.

Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Given that the Order-in-Council gives the--

Madam Speaker: Would the honourable member please pose her question.

Ms. Barrett: Given that the Order-in-Council--it is a phrase of the question. Given that the Order-in-Council allows the Chief Electoral Officer in his role as commissioner to expand the parameters of this investigation to wherever he feels it needs to go, how can the Chief Electoral Officer know if he has enough resources to do this by September 30 when he still has to deal with the Boundaries Commission and The Elections Act changes within 90 days of coming into effect? How can he know that?

Mr. Filmon: I find it preposterous, Madam Speaker, that the member for Wellington suggests that the Chief Electoral Officer does not know his job and does not know how to conduct these inquiries or investigations, does not have any idea of how much resources it will take and so on. I would suggest that he knows much more than the member for Wellington about his capabilities and the capabilities of his staff and resources.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is also for the Premier. Madam Speaker, there are two issues that we have at hand here: first, the issue is the very serious allegations that are being levelled against the government and the members or workers of the Conservative party, which should not be taken lightly whatsoever. The second issue is the integrity of the office of Elections Manitoba.

Given what has arisen over the last couple of days, I would again ask the Premier to acknowledge the need for the Legislative Assembly Management Commission to get together in an attempt to be able to deal with these issues that have been raised with the Chief Electoral Officer so that we can feel comfortable that not only are the resources there but also other concerns have been expressed in the last few days.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I respect the member for Inkster's viewpoint on this. I think that he wants to be supportive of the Chief Electoral Officer and Elections Manitoba in this endeavour as in all endeavours. I know that yesterday, during concurrence debate, he expressed very strongly his support for the ability of Elections Manitoba to carry out investigations and arrive at conclusions on this matter.

I would just say to him that, as I said yesterday, I do not want it to be seen that government or any party in this House is instructing the Chief Electoral Officer to come before a committee to do certain things. I will say this, and I am saying this publicly, that the Chief Electoral Officer, I believe, would come to ask to be heard by LAMC if he felt he needed more resources, and the Chief Electoral Officer knows that he can approach government if he is not in any way satisfied that he has the resources to carry out this mandate. That I am assured is not the case, but if indeed, in the course of the investigation more resources are required, financial or otherwise, I know that he would feel confident to come and receive those resources for this purpose, Madam Speaker.

* (1400)

Mr. Lamoureux: Then, in part for those reasons, will the Premier acknowledge that we have to have an LAMC meeting? LAMC meetings have been cancelled in the past. We need to make ourselves available then, Madam Speaker, so that if in fact additional resources are necessary, there is a meeting.

My question to the minister is: will the Premier commit that we will in fact have a meeting of LAMC within the next number of weeks?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, because LAMC is a nonpartisan consensus body of this Legislature, I have never even attended an LAMC meeting. I have certainly never got involved in scheduling meetings for LAMC. I have certainly never dictated what is on the agenda of LAMC, nor would I. So, as a consequence, I would suggest that the member go through the usual process of speaking with his colleagues, the government House leader (Mr. McCrae), the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton), and talk about getting together to discuss some of these matters and perhaps inviting the Chief Electoral Officer, if that is his wish, to participate in discussions about something that he believes is relevant. Then I think it would be up to the Chief Electoral Officer as to whether or not he felt that that in any way constrained his independence or his ability to operate.

Mr. Lamoureux: Then I go to the government House leader and ask the government House leader to acknowledge that there is a need for LAMC to meet. Will he agree with that and indicate to the House that he is prepared to see an LAMC meeting within the next few weeks?

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, the honourable member knows that the Provincial Auditor, the office of the Clerk of the Legislature, the provincial Ombudsman and Elections Manitoba have their dealings with this Legislature through the Legislative Assembly Management Commission. The meetings of that commission are handled in such a way that they are set by agreement between the members of that committee, and that is how that is done. If the Chief Electoral Officer, as the Premier has pointed out, has some requirement that he has not made known to us to this point, the honourable member knows full well that he is quite at liberty to approach the Speaker to see if issues related to his requirements could be placed on the agenda of LAMC. The Speaker would then inform the House leaders and it goes from there. It is all done as it has been done in the past.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, certainly for my part, and I think all members of the Chamber, I would like to commend all those individuals who had the courage in the last few weeks to come out and make public statements in order to have justice not only be done but seen to be done, and I commend their courage.

My question to the Premier with respect to the Order-in-Council that has been put before us for debate: can the Premier indicate--since the infractions referred to in the Order-in-Council or The Elections Act and The Elections Finances Act--whether or not the chief commissioner will have the opportunity to investigate offences or potential offences under the Criminal Code of Canada since it is not specifically referred to within the statute, within the O/C?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I am advised that he can certainly confirm facts with respect to what may be Criminal Code matters and that those matters would then have to be referred to RCMP or other police for the gathering of the evidence that would be required for charges to be laid. In the case of Criminal Code matters, it would not be the commissioner that would lay the charges, it would obviously be the law officers of the Crown based on relevant findings.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My next question, Madam Speaker, is it had been an insistence of our side--and the Premier said he was trying to respond to some of the issues--that this process be open and public. There is no reference within the Order-in-Council or otherwise that this is going to be an open and public process. Given the previous process and the powers under The Elections Act, can the Premier assure this House that this process will in fact be open and will be a public process?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The conduct of the process will be in the hands of the commissioner.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I mean, you have, on the one hand, one member saying that he fears for the safety of somebody who needs to be protected from the public; then, on the other hand, you are saying that it has to be out in the public where you would put him in jeopardy. This is preposterous. You cannot have it both ways.

The conduct would be in the hands of the commissioner, and the commissioner would obviously do his inquiries in such a fashion as to get to the bottom of all of the allegations and to come to the truth of the whole issue. In the end, he must make a public report of all his findings. That is to ensure that the public then knows the outcome of all of the allegations and of all of the information that he has investigated.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the Premier is: since the Premier's assistant and chief of staff is one of the key figures in the entire issue, one of the key conspirators, or whatever term one wants to use in regard to this scandal, and since this individual is obviously in contact with the office of the Chief Electoral Officer, the very commissioner, what steps to guard the integrity of the Premier's Office is the Premier going to take with his assistant? Will he consider putting him on a leave of absence until these charges are dealt with in order to maintain the integrity of the Premier's Office?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Firstly, I can assure the member opposite that the individual whom he names would not have any contact with the office of the Chief Electoral Officer over the next period of time while this investigation is ongoing. That, I think, should cover the matter.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): We hope that he has one important contact with the commission, Madam Speaker. It is a very important one and that is to be investigated.

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair

To the Premier. The purpose of our request for a public judicial inquiry was to reinstill confidence in the electoral system of Manitoba because it is under a cloud. With that purpose in mind, I ask the Premier: why is it that the draft Order-in-Council restricts the commission to inquiring and reporting on alleged infractions of only two statutes, The Elections Act, The Elections Finances Act? Why does it not give a full scope, a broad scope, to the commission to look at matters of unethical conduct, which may not be illegal but may be wrong, very wrong, look at criminal matters, look at laws that should be created to ensure that, indeed, if these allegations are proven true, this never happens again?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, firstly, we have not restricted the ability of the commissioner to look at all issues that are relevant to this particular matter. I spoke earlier in response to the question of the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), and it may well be that there are Criminal Code matters that are identified as a result of these investigations. Certainly, not only would the commissioner be able to refer those issues for the proper investigation for charges to be laid by the relevant police authorities, but also, of course, ultimately those matters would then be the subject of decisions by Crown attorneys and others.

So this is not in any way intended to restrict the ability to get to the bottom of any and all allegations that have been made on this matter.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the Premier not recognize that, indeed, does restrict the commissioner to look at whether there has been a breach of two particular provincial statutes? When we are concerned and Manitobans are concerned about unethical conduct, as well as illegal conduct, would he not recognize that this scope is not broad enough, and would he now agree to expand the scope to ensure a full inquiry?

Mr. Filmon: It is because we do not want the commissioner or any individual to be placed in a situation where there can be continuing innuendo for political gain by anybody, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that point 2 of the Order-in-Council says that nothing set out above shall be taken in any way as limiting the right of the commissioner, Richard D. Balasko, to petition the Lieutenant Governor in Council to expand the terms of reference to cover any matter that the commissioner may deem necessary as a result of information coming to the commissioner's attention during the course of the inquiry. The intent, of course, of that is that we cannot possibly anticipate anything that might come.

If, in the end, he needs more time, that will be given. If he needs broader scope, that will be given. If he needs authority, that will be given for anything. That is the intent of that, and that is why we have set it up in this way.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I am sure all members are aware the member for St. Johns is ready to ask his question. The honourable member for St. Johns, to pose his final question.

* (1410)

Mr. Mackintosh: Since the purpose is to reinstill confidence in the electoral system, does the Premier not understand the conflict of this paragraph 2 that he relies on, of the commissioner wanting to expand the scope because this is so restrictive, and who does he have to go and plead with? The Premier. He is going to go to the people being investigated to ask for an expanded scope. Would he not understand that that is inappropriate in this context?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I assure you and every member of this Legislature that any request by the commissioner, Mr. Balasko, to expand his ability to do the complete investigation will be granted. The only difficulty we have is we cannot anticipate all of the possible eventualities. Members opposite, who wanted this before, are now trying to find ways to weasel out from under their commitments and their requests.

We are giving them what they asked for, and now they are trying to find ways to poke holes in it. Well, I can tell the member opposite this, that we are not interested in their cheap politics. We are interested in getting at the truth.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a new question.

Mr. Mackintosh: As I said, the purpose is to reinstill confidence in the electoral system. Unfortunately what has come to light is an investigation was conducted by Elections Manitoba into allegations three years ago, an investigation which failed, for whatever reason, to turn up and deal with some very serious aspects and important parts of the allegations and people who were key in any investigation, and we trusted those shortcomings of that investigation were in good faith, but something went wrong.

We ask the Premier now: will he not recognize at least that the scope of this inquiry is terribly restricted in that it does not allow for an investigation of the investigation done by Elections Manitoba to ensure that Elections Manitoba gets the confidence it needs and the confidence that we want the public to have in Elections Manitoba?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, now the truth is coming out. What the members opposite are really saying is that they are investigating--wanting Elections Manitoba to be investigated. They are the ones who are making an allegation against a body that is set up to have the integrity and the independence to be able to conduct elections in Manitoba without fear or favour from any influence of any political party, and they are suggesting now that somehow that body cannot do that.

The member opposite should get at the truth, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and that is that it is their party that has put this forward as new information. That is the basis all week that they have been asking for this kind of investigation, this kind of commission of inquiry. It is not on the basis that the old information was not looked at; it is on the basis that the new information was available that they kept inquiring for this kind of investigation.

Well, it is now here. It is now here. The commission is here. It has the powers that you asked for. It has the ability to go back all the way to all those issues that have been raised, and it has the mandate to get to the truth, and that is precisely what it will do.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Mr. Deputy Speaker, three witnesses have implicated Taras Sokolyk in plans to corrupt the election process. They have made serious allegations.

Is it not reasonable that the Premier should ask Ms. Hueging and Mr. Sokolyk to step aside during this inquiry so that if indeed their names are cleared they will come back with dignity, and if indeed the allegations are proven then the consequences would follow? But they must not stay in office in the run-up to an election doing the jobs they are doing under an investigation, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not think that we should be preached to about ethics and dignity by an individual who sat on this information for over five months and did not bring it to the House and did not bring it to the attention of the Chief Electoral Officer and did not bring it to anyone for whatever reasons. We will find out perhaps in the investigation.

I say that I believe we live in a democracy in which one of the principles is that a person is innocent until proven guilty, and that is not the way in which we treat individuals in our society, by telling them that they have to step down because somebody has made an allegation. Until the allegation is investigated, until that allegation is dealt with, the individual is innocent until other information is provided.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Time for Oral Question Period has expired.