4th-36th Vol. 70-Oral Questions

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon Grade 5 and I believe some Grade 6 students from Lansdowne School.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, there have been serious new allegations made this week by Mr. Sutherland that $4,900 was donated by the Progressive Conservative Party to his Native Voice campaign and another new revelation from Mr. Sigurdson that the Premier's principal secretary was aware of the plan and said: good work, job well done.

Mr. Sutherland stated that he met Mr. Aitken and Mr. Cubby Barrett at Mr. Barrett's home where the promise of, quote, $5,000 was made to him.

On June 22, the Premier said: I am satisfied from my investigation that our party was not involved. I would like to ask the Premier: did he investigate these allegations with Mr. Cubby Barrett?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the allegations were that it was the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba that was involved in the scheme and that raised the money. I spoke to the people in our party who are responsible for fundraising, and I spoke to the people who are responsible for our campaign organization. They had absolutely no knowledge of the affair.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I would like to table minutes from a PC Manitoba Fund board meeting where it states that on that board are representatives from the Progressive Conservative Party. There is a representative named Mr. Jim Downey, a Mr. Arni Thorsteinson and a further representative, Mr. Cubby Barrett.

I asked the Premier the question of whether he had interviewed and investigated Mr. Barrett. The Premier had stated that he did investigate the people responsible for fundraising. I would like to ask the Premier again: did he investigate the allegations made about Mr. Barrett dealing with the promise of the $5,000?

Mr. Filmon: As the member will know, there was no allegation made about Mr. Barrett at the time, and, no, I did not speak with Mr. Barrett about the issue. Madam Speaker, that matter is now being investigated by Elections Manitoba based on the new information that has been brought forward, and I believe that is the appropriate body in which that should take place.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Premier said, according to his investigation he was, quote, satisfied that these allegations were not true. Then he states that he investigated all the central fundraising people, in answer to the first question. Why did the Premier not interview and investigate Mr. Cubby Barrett, a person who is central to the Interlake Progressive Conservatives, a person who is obviously central to the Manitoba PC Fund, not the Interlake fund but the Manitoba PC Fund where the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) is a member of that body? Why did he not investigate Mr. Cubby Barrett, and how can he tell us he was satisfied on the basis of his own investigation when he did not even discuss this matter with Mr. Barrett?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I spoke to the people who chair the PC Manitoba Fund, the people who are--who is the chief financial officer of the party for the election, because this was a broad allegation. It did not refer to specifics. Now we have a specific allegation, and I am only too happy to have Elections Manitoba investigate that and interview the people against whom allegations have been made. That is as it should be.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, we have seen clearly just in the last few days that there is new evidence, as confirmed in fact by Elections Manitoba, that indicates that our accusations of corruption going to the highest levels of the Conservative Party and this government deserve to be investigated. Indeed, the Premier said on Monday that he had investigated it and he was happy with that investigation.

I am wondering if, in addition to talking to Cubby Barrett, he asked either Mr. Barrett or his son, Carl Barrett, why apparently Mr. Barrett's son, Carl Barrett, was involved in putting up signs not only for the Conservative Party in the Interlake but the aboriginal voice candidate, Mr. Sutherland. Did he ask either of the Barretts about those issues?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have no idea what the member opposite is trying to make of this. There are people who put up signs; there are people who knock down signs. There are people who are involved in all sorts of ways in campaigns. Come on now.

Madam Speaker, this is a thing that ought to be investigated. Any of the allegations he wants to make about whether or not a person has the legal right to put up signs for two parties, good heavens, we have people in this House who have run for different parties. The member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) has run for different parties. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) was meeting with all three parties prior to the 1986 election campaign, shopping around whether or not he could run for all those parties. If he wanted to have investigations, let us investigate all of this.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): With a supplementary. I am wondering when the Premier, who now obviously has indicated that his so-called investigation was absolutely bogus, will acknowledge the seriousness of this whole thing, which is key Conservative officials, people like Mr. Barrett, a key fundraiser for the party, his son and others, running a bogus campaign in the Interlake, something that has been called now by a constitutional authority in this province, potentially an extremely serious scandal.

When will he indicate this needs an investigation through an independent judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of the kind of corruption we are seeing at the highest levels of the Conservative Party?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I did not pursue calling everybody in the party in the province, all 23,000 members, because Elections Manitoba took over the investigation then. They announced that they were going to investigate, and that is as it should be. That is what has happened, of course, this week as a result of the allegations that are put forward by the members opposite. Elections Manitoba has taken on the responsibility, as they should, to do an impartial, nonpartisan investigation.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, my supplementary, once again, is in regard to the statement from the Premier: "I am satisfied from my investigations." I am wondering, given the fact that this has been described as a violation of political morality of the highest order, political fraud: who did the Premier meet with and when? Will he now acknowledge that this corruption goes right to the top of the Conservative Party--Mr. Sokolyk, Ms. Val Hueging and others, key operatives of the Conservative Party? It goes right to the Premier himself.

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we on this side of the House will put our faith in the investigation of Elections Manitoba. They will take into account all the new information that has been brought forward, all the allegations that members opposite have brought forward, and they will deal with it on a nonpartisan basis, as they should.

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): While the previous Elections Act was silent on making findings of investigations of election irregularities public, it was only Elections Manitoba policy not to report those findings. Under the new Elections Act that is before the Legislature, Elections Manitoba is prohibited from making public any of its findings of election irregularities.

Will the Premier not agree that the public's right to know and have confidence in the electoral system, which has been severely shaken by the events and the accusations and allegations of the last few days, requires not a secret Elections Manitoba investigation but a full, open, public, judicial inquiry?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, if we were to respond every time the members opposite wanted a full, open, public, judicial inquiry, we would have had half a dozen already this year. That is the typical response of members opposite to serve their own political interest. I say to the members opposite that all of the changes in the act--and the member opposite supported the position that we ought to in fact support those recommendations put forward by the Chief Electoral Officer, and we have done so in the act.

Ms. Barrett: Since the new Elections Act before the Legislature prohibits the initiation of an investigation--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose her question now.

Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Since Elections Manitoba, under the new legislation, cannot open an investigation because it has been three years since the alleged incidents occurred in April of 1995, why will the Premier not call a public, independent, full, judicial inquiry, given the serious nature of these offences and given the fact that The Elections Act cannot deal with it under the law?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the member opposite sets herself up as judge and jury. She is talking about offences when what she really means is allegations. That is why we have Elections Manitoba there, to look at, to look into and to investigate to the fullest extent possible to get to the bottom of this.

Ms. Barrett: Given that the Premier refuses to acknowledge the limitations of The Elections Act before the Legislature, does it not make sense that people who are saying to us, people from the public are saying that the only reason that the Premier is stonewalling on calling for a public, open, judicial inquiry, which is the only way we can come to the bottom of this, is because he is afraid of the results of that open public inquiry?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have indicated that all of us on a nonpartisan basis, on an apolitical basis have set up Elections Manitoba to investigate these things. I say that after the last election campaign, as a result of allegations, charges were laid in Minnedosa by Elections Manitoba. They have the ability, they have the power, and I say to them, to the members opposite, that they are the appropriate body, and we will abide by anything they do and co-operate in any way possible.

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Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Premier. Yesterday the Premier apparently suffered a momentary lapse when he said that he was interested in, and I quote: whatever it takes to get to the bottom of this.

I now ask the Premier: will he not admit that it is his understanding that if Elections Manitoba pursues an investigation, it cannot lead to a prosecution, it is prevented from initiating a prosecution? The time limit of six months under the Criminal Code and The Elections Act today has gone by; the time limit of two years under The Elections Finances Act has gone by. It is a sterile, infertile investigation.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I mean, I find this difficult to accept from a member of the party that sat on this for three years presumably and in fact sat on what they consider to be new evidence for more than five months. So you have to question whether or not there is any sincerity whatsoever in their urgings to get to the bottom of this when we can see where the political motivations are for the timing and the orchestration that is behind this.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the Premier, who like Mr. Sutherland should have been forthcoming on Monday, admit that under the laws of Manitoba, The Elections Act, The Elections Finances Act, Elections Manitoba is embarking on an investigation which is going to be private and, second of all, will not lead to any consequences? No one will be exonerated, no one will be prosecuted even if the allegations are proven true. Would the Premier acknowledge that it is an underground tunnel, a tunnel with no end?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, we will place no restrictions on Elections Manitoba. They will have whatever ability they want to be able to make public whatever they want.

Mr. Mackintosh: Will the Premier not admit that he favours Elections Manitoba looking at this because, from this point forward, Elections Manitoba is prohibited from divulging any results of any investigation and no prosecution is now possible. The time is up; the investigation is nothing but a black hole. Will he now admit that is why he is satisfied with this kind of an investigation?

Mr. Filmon: No, Madam Speaker, I will admit nothing of the sort.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is also for the Premier. Having had the opportunity last night to correspond or communicate with Elections Manitoba, in particular the Chief Electoral Officer, there is no doubt that a great deal of concern is out there that the public has. The official opposition has legitimate concerns. But we do, in fact, support the independence of the Elections Manitoba office.

Having said that, my question to the Premier is: given the amount of concern that not only the official opposition has but we have and many members of the public have, will the Premier agree to having or requesting an all-party discussion with the Chief Electoral Officer in the format of LAMC, because the Chief Electoral Officer does meet on occasion with that committee. Will he be in favour of that?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, if the Chief Electoral Officer would like to come to LAMC and have such a discussion, I would be very happy to have that happen.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I think that this is very important, and I would ask then for the Premier to make it very clear that at the next LAMC meeting--which is an in camera meeting for members of the opposition, government, and we do sit in as an observer--that this government's position is that they would like to see the Chief Electoral Officer present for that meeting.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I am informed that the Chief Electoral Officer comes to LAMC from time to time to discuss various requirements of his office. I know that he does that at his initiative. He is not seen to be responding--

An Honourable Member: You just said you are going to give him powers.

Mr. Filmon: We will take away no powers from him. He can do what he wants on it.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I know that none of us would want to see the Chief Electoral Officer as being responsive to demands or requests, demands by any party in this House. If he wants to, as a result of what he is observing, what he is seeing, come there and have a discussion, I think that that would be certainly up to him and not anything that any of us would stand in the way of.

I would say, as well, that if there is a matter under investigation, I am sure that all of us would understand that he might not want to discuss that while it is under investigation. So I think there are limitations to which we can go without treading on the independence of the office.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the Premier, in essence, to recognize that it is in fact the Speaker who sets the agenda, and I would ask the question to the government House leader: is the government House leader prepared to, through the Speaker's office, on behalf of all three political parties, request that the Chief Electoral Officer come before LAMC just so that MLAs will be provided the opportunity to express the concerns that they have so that we can feel somewhat assured that Elections Manitoba's office is in fact addressing the concerns that have been raised over the last couple of days?

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Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, the honourable member for Inkster has just about as much experience with the Legislative Assembly Management Commission as I do or as the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has and knows that, while Madam Speaker is the Chair of that commission, the members of the commission are quite at liberty to ask the commission to put something on the agenda if this is the result of a request from somebody or some agency.

So the honourable member for Inkster knows how that system works. If there is a will to have a discussion about something, as long as it does not impinge on something that Elections Manitoba is at present looking into, that kind of discussion is possible. It would result from informal discussions amongst the leadership of the three parties represented here. It would end up on the agenda and be discussed as and when the honourable member might wish.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, very serious allegations have been made as to the role that the Progressive Conservative Party made in the elections in the Interlake, in Swan River and in Dauphin. The Premier on Monday said that he was satisfied with his investigation and that his party and his central campaign were not involved.

I want to ask the Premier whether he personally did that investigation or whether his staff did the investigation and whether he gave the opportunity for Nelson Contois and Carey Contois to also have a say in it. Did he investigate with those people whether they had any involvement with the Conservative Party?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, virtually hours after I had an opportunity to ask some people in the senior level of our party about whether or not there was any knowledge of this, the Chief Electoral Officer announced that he was going to initiate an investigation. After that, my involvement stopped. I mean, why would I take it any further when the authority that we have set up to do this on a nonpartisan basis has taken over the investigation? Why would I pursue it?

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, the minister indicated on Monday that he had done an investigation; now he says he stopped his investigation. Will the minister table any documents or any information he has of the people that he interviewed to satisfy him that it was an adequate investigation done on this matter and that the Conservative Party was not involved?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, let us face it, it would not matter what investigations I did, they would not be acceptable to the members opposite. That is why we have in place a Chief Electoral Officer, who on a nonpartisan basis, on an apolitical basis, is put in place as the officer with the authority to be able to investigate and lay charges on behalf of any Manitoban.

So whether it is the Contoises or whether it is the member for--and I should remind her that it was her party that made the allegations. It was the campaign manager in Interlake, Mr. Billie Uruski. It was a member of the New Democratic Party who laid the allegation in Minnedosa that resulted in a charge being laid. Those are the reasons why we have somebody who is nonpartisan doing that, and that is the process that should take place and did take place.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River, with a final supplementary question.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Will the Premier admit that the answers he has given are completely unsatisfactory, and what we need is a public judicial inquiry to clear all of these facts, to clear the names of the candidates that were involved, clear the names of the people who have put evidence forward? It is time for a judicial inquiry.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will acknowledge that the answers that I give in the House to virtually every question that New Democrats ask, those answers are seen to be unsatisfactory to them. That is one of the realities of the partisanship which is being displayed every day here.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, the Premier conducts an investigation and he is satisfied, although today he said he really did not conduct an investigation. Elections Manitoba conducts an investigation; the Premier is satisfied. Now, when we find out that Elections Manitoba did not even interview one of the key figures--the key figure--in the event, what does the Premier do? He sends it back to Elections Manitoba to investigate. Is the Premier not aware that if we had a trial or any other judicial forum and the judge or the court failed to deal with any of the witnesses in trial--would you send it back to the same judge, the same group? Would you do that? Why does the Premier do that?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, again the member assumes that there are charges that have been laid. He arrives at conclusions of people's guilt. The fact of the matter is the reason that we have a nonpartisan office like the Chief Electoral Officer to look at these issues is so that it is not done on the basis of allegations, it is not done on the basis of partisanship; it is done on the basis of somebody who is independent from all of us being able to look at the matter. The Chief Electoral Officer has not reopened the investigation because I have instructed him to. He has done it because he has looked at the information that has been provided, and he has decided that there ought to be further investigation.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, would the Premier not agree that under Section 83(1) of The Manitoba Evidence Act it is most appropriate and most proper that a commission be appointed under the Lieutenant Governor to--"the election of a member to the Legislative Assembly or any alleged attempt to corrupt a candidate at any such election." "Or any alleged attempt to corrupt a candidate at any such election" is in The Manitoba Evidence Act. The Premier has the power, and this is the appropriate vehicle to conduct an investigation into this issue, not to go back to the body that investigated it in the first place.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we have oftentimes seen evidence of, where investigations were made and then new evidence or new information comes up, those investigations are reopened. We have seen that happen time and time again in our society. We have in place an appropriate body that all of us have supported in the past to look into allegations of wrongdoing in the electoral process. That is Elections Manitoba. They now have new information that they have decided that they ought to investigate, reinvestigate. Based on that, they are doing now a new investigation, taking into account the new information. Not only is that not inappropriate, it is the appropriate way that these matters are handled.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, how does the Premier state what he just stated, that there is new evidence, when in fact the two key elements--[interjection] New information, the Premier says from his seat, new information--when the $5,000 on the election return was provided to Elections Manitoba, and they had that, and when the name Mr. Darryl Sutherland was provided to Elections Manitoba, and they had that, they neither investigated Darryl Sutherland nor the $5,000. How can the Premier say it is new information when they failed to conduct an investigation audit in the first place? The Premier is wrong.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, Elections Manitoba, their investigator interviewed just a couple of hours ago on radio, indicate that they did contact Mr. Sutherland. So I would rather have Elections Manitoba put forward their investigation and review. I would rather have Elections Manitoba make those judgments and decisions and not jump at conclusions as members opposite are wanting to do.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I think we are now getting to the root of the problem here, and it is a lack of recognition by anyone in this government of the depths they have sunk to in terms of political ethics and morality in this province. The Premier today has said that when he became aware--assuming he did not know this beforehand--of these allegations, he talked to a few people; he has not said who. Then, as soon as he heard Elections Manitoba was investigating it, he did not ask Taras Sokolyk, his chief of staff and campaign manager; or Allan Aitken, one of the key players in this who was the campaign manager in the Interlake; or Cubby Barrett, another one of the key players, a key Tory fundraiser; or Val Hueging, the PC party secretary; or Kim Sigurdson, his own candidate in St. Boniface.

Will the Premier now admit that the real root of the problem here is the complete misunderstanding of any concept of ethics on the part of this Premier and this government? They do not understand the concept of political fraud.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the various individuals to whom the member opposite refers--one of them in particular was widely quoted in the newspaper and put on the record his information as to what his role was in this. The matter then was taken over by Elections Manitoba.

Why would I want to in any way interfere with or be seen to be even--you know, the members opposite would say, if I attempted to talk to one of those people, that I was trying to influence them, as they alleged this week. They cannot have it both ways. I am either seen to be influencing those people, or I am seen to be legitimately getting information. They cannot have it both ways. This matter is one in which we have tremendous politics being played by the members opposite. They are entitled to do that; that is part of what we normally expect from them. But we have a process in place, and we have a nonpartisan body in place called Elections Manitoba who, we are now seeing, is going to open up their investigation and look at it further based on new information. I am happy to accept that.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Ashton: Is the Premier then saying that he had so little concern, given the accusations of corruption of the electoral process and political fraud in 1995, that he did not, Madam Speaker, as we have seen, investigate, that in fact he did not ask questions of people like his campaign manager, his party secretary, the campaign manager for the Interlake, a key fundraiser as well, Cubby Barrett, that he did not see anything wrong with what was happening, that as Leader of the party and Premier in charge of these people, he did not bother to ask them what the truth was about these accusations of political fraud?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, absolutely to the contrary. I said I regarded the allegations as serious, and I wanted them investigated by a nonpartisan body. Elections Manitoba undertook that on their own volition because they regarded them as being serious. They took the investigation on, and that, as far as I was concerned, was the appropriate matter. I did not further pursue it because the nonpartisan group that is mandated by legislation to do it took it over.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a final supplementary question.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, will the Premier then admit that what he said on Monday about this so-called investigation was not true, and the Premier did not see anything wrong with what was happening to the point that he as Leader of the party, he as Premier for whom Taras Sokolyk was the chief of staff, did not see even the need to ask them, indeed, whether there was substance to these extremely serious accusations of political fraud and corruption? Does he not see a problem with that?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I did not say that at all. I did ask the relevant people, and after that point, almost immediately after that point, Elections Manitoba undertook a thorough review. In fact, that is precisely the way it was characterized by Elections Manitoba. It was referred to as an extensive review and investigation by the Chief Electoral Officer. So that is the ultimate authority that all of us respond to, that all of us are responsible to, and that is why I certainly did not go beyond that because I did not want to interfere with their investigation.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. Members' Statements. The honourable member for--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. Members' Statements. I was attempting to recognize the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek.