Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be considering a number of resolutions.
The list of items to be considered includes: the Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote; Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities; Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases; Urban Economic Development Initiatives; Capital expenditures; Legislative Assembly; Emergency Expenditures.
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): My question was, Mr. Chair, do we have 29 minutes, or how many minutes do we have?
Mr. Chairperson: I am told by our Clerk that indeed it is roughly 29 minutes. Is it the will of the committee to keep the clock running while we consider and pass these various items, given that Supply time will be shortly run out, or did the committee wish to recess in between consideration of these items?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Mr. Chairman, I think everybody's expectation was that we would use the next 25 to 29 minutes as efficiently as we could, so that would obviate any suggestion of any recesses between votes. I do not think that has been anybody's intention.
Mr. Chairperson: Agreed by the committee? [agreed]
Mr. L. Evans: Well, I appreciate the fact that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) cannot be here because he did indicate previously he had to attend a very important federal-provincial Finance ministers' meeting, which we wish him lots of luck and come back with lots of money, reinstating health transfers, et cetera. We are asking, what is it, $6 billion? At any rate, so I gather we can ask questions, but we will not necessarily get any answers.
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. If we could now move on in the Estimates, on page 133, 26.1. Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote (a) Winnipeg Development Agreement (1) Operating.
Mr. L. Evans: Well, I gather, Mr. Chairman, that we can ask questions. The minister will take them as notice, but do I understand, he will have no answers for us on any of these items?
Mr. McCrae: I would suggest that we get the questions asked, and I will leave it to others to judge the quality of the answers given. There was an understanding that these matters would have been disposed of last Thursday when the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) was here.
However, if the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) asks the questions, I will do my best to answer them, and to the extent that I fall short of completeness, I have given the undertaking that the Minister of Finance and his staff will review Hansard for today and compile, in writing, the answers for the honourable members.
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Mr. L. Evans: We do not have too many questions in this area. My colleagues have questions elsewhere, but I do note that there is a considerable drop in the Agreement on Municipal Water Infrastructure, and I was wondering why there is such a large drop, or is that program coming to an end? It is dropping from $825 million in 1997-98 to $200 million in 1998-99, which is a considerable drop in expenditure.
Conversely, the Winnipeg Development Agreement has almost doubled. I guess there is material available explaining why both of these phenomena are happening. Why is the Winnipeg Development Agreement more or less doubled, both on operating and capital, and secondly, why is it that the Partnership Agreement on Municipal Water Infrastructure is taking such a significant drop?
Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I just noticed here that the member for Brandon East said $200 million.
Mr. L. Evans: Yes.
Mr. Chairperson: Did you mean two? It is $200,000, I believe.
Mr. L. Evans: I am sorry, it was $200,000. These are small potatoes. Pardon me. Excuse me--[interjection] Yes, what is a million, eh? C.D. Howe's famous or infamous statement that he could not live down many years ago. I am sorry. You are correct, Mr. Chairman. It is $200,000. Okay.
Well, the question still stands. These are substantial percentage changes, and we should get some explanation. So perhaps we can get a note on that from the appropriate ministers. Similarly, on the general agreement and promotion of official languages, I am not sure how all this money is going to be spent. We do not have much of an explanation on that either. That would be a very interesting item to get some elaboration on. I am sure there could be a note or something from the minister on that.
Mr. McCrae: On their face, the numbers do seem to fluctuate from year to year in the areas of the Winnipeg Development Agreement as well as the Partnership Agreement on Municipal Water Infrastructure. Rather than my speculating on what stage projects might be at, whether there are new ones coming on, old ones finishing up and not requiring appropriations and so on, rather than speculating on all those possible answers, I think the questions are quite in order and in line, and I will certainly pass those questions on to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) for his attention.
Mr. L. Evans: Slipping along to item 3. Justice Initiatives, or can we not do that? Do you want to pass 1. first?
Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee to just run through the questions on all these areas, or do we want to pass each area as we go?
An Honourable Member: We could pass them.
Mr. Chairperson: Okay, we will pass each area then as we go.
Item 26.1. Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote (a) Winnipeg Development Agreement (1) Operating $862,800--pass; (2) Capital $507,000--pass.
Item 26.1. (b) Partnership Agreement on Municipal Water Infrastructure - Capital $200,000--pass.
Item 26.1. (c) Framework Agreement on Treaty Land Entitlements - Operating $450,000--pass.
Item 26.1. (d) General Agreement on the Promotion of Official Languages - Operating--1,200,000--pass.
Resolution 26.1: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,219,800 for Enabling Appropriations, Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
The next one is page 135, item 4. Allowance for Losses. The next one on the list that you have there.
An Honourable Member: I am sorry. Number one is all of page 133, is it not?
Mr. Chairperson: No. It is item one--[interjection] Order, please.
Mr. L. Evans: Just a clarification. I was not aware, but you are saying, the minister, or someone is saying, that we have passed 2 and 3 on a previous occasion. Item 26.2. Sustainable Development and 3. Justice Initiatives. Those are gone. That is news to me.
The question is: why were they separated out?
Mr. McCrae: There is a procedure set out in the rules whereby the opposition House leader and the government House leader work out a schedule for the handling of the various votes of the Estimates of the government. The Sustainable Development Innovations Fund was the subject of examination by myself and by the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) as scheduled by House leaders. The same with the other one--what was the other one?--the same as Justice Initiatives. They followed examination of the Estimates of the Department of Justice, and it has been the subject of ongoing collaboration between myself and the opposition House leader with respect to the scheduling.
The ones that you see on the list for today--Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote, Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations, Internal Reform, Capital Initiatives--are all standing in the name of the Minister of Finance. They were supposed to have been disposed of last Thursday. The Legislative Assembly, I answer for on behalf of the LAMC; and Emergency Expenditures, the honourable Minister of Emergency Measures and Government Services (Mr. Pitura) is here, should there be any questions. The discussion, I understand, is completed, and it remains only to pass the Emergency Expenditures one. There is a brief explanation.
Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Okay, so if we can now move on to page 135, item 27.4 Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities.
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would think that there must be some concern on the part of the government, and certainly on the part of the opposition, for continuing losses by Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. I assume that is essentially Hecla Island. I am assuming that is the hotel operation up there.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): This Crown corporation operates the Gull Harbour Resort and Conference Centre as well as the Falcon Lake Golf Course. The province maintains a provision for potential losses related to these operations, which recognizes the province's exposure on an outstanding loan guarantee.
Mr. L. Evans: I thank the minister for that information. Would he know where most of the subsidy is going? Is it going to Hecla Island, or is it going to the Falcon Lake golf club?
Mr. McCrae: The appropriation for 1998-99 for the Manitoba Potash Corporation is $250,000, and that was voted at $1,200,000 last fiscal year. For Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd., it is $525,000 this fiscal year, a similar amount to that for last fiscal year.
Mr. L. Evans: I was not asking about Manitoba Potash Corporation. I was asking about the breakdown of Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. and the $525,000. What proportion, if any, is allocated for the Falcon Lake Golf Course, and how much, therefore, is allocated for Gull Harbour?
Mr. McCrae: I will ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) to provide that information with relation to the Gull Harbour Resort and Conference Centre as well as the Falcon Lake Golf Course.
Mr. L. Evans: I thank the minister for that. Could he also ask the Minister of Finance, or whichever minister is responsible: how long do you expect to continue to subsidize that operation, because at some point I thought this was going to be phased out and that it would be self-sustaining and, hopefully, profitable? So the question arises: how long are we going to carry this on?
Mr. McCrae: That is more of a policy question that I would be happy to leave for the Minister of Finance.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 27.4. Manitoba Potash Corporation $250,000--pass; Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. $525,000--pass;
Resolution 27.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $775,000 for Other Appropriations, Allowance For Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next one is page 133, item 26.4. Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases.
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Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Chairman, would the minister take as notice, or if he can give the answer now, where can we find material describing and analyzing the internal reform initiatives?
Normally, when you deal with the department, you get a departmental review, and I do not know, Mr. Chairman, I seek your guidance. Where would we find this material on this particular item? We are talking about $15 million, and we are talking about various internal reform initiatives and adjustments. So is there a report of some kind describing these initiatives and these changes? If so, we would like to get a copy.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): For the purposes of today's discussion, I refer the honourable member to the Supplementary Information for Legislature Review respecting these appropriations, in this case, Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases, tabled by the Minister of Finance. I do not recall what date he tabled that. I think the honourable member has a copy of it. [interjection] Okay, well, we should be able to make another one available to the honourable member. The honourable member says it has been wrongfully removed, and I do not want to be part of that at all. If you look on page 5, with respect to this particular vote, rather than my reading it into the record, the honourable member can have a look at it. If he has further questions, he can ask them or write them down, and we will pass them on to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson).
Mr. L. Evans: Mr. Chairman, it really does not give us much more information, so I wonder if the minister could ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) if there was some more detailed explanation, some report of what is happening here. I mean there is a very, very brief explanation, but there should be more material, I would think. Departments usually have annual reports, and they go into a lot of detail. We do not have that luxury in this case. So my question is: could we have some more information describing what has been happening?
Mr. McCrae: I am not sure how the discussion goes with respect to this particular appropriation year in and year out at the Estimates. I do not know how much time is devoted to it. I dare say, though, the Finance minister would be well equipped to provide more detailed responses to detailed questions should they arise. Therefore, the opportunity is there at various stages in the concurrence process, but also that information can be sought, and I am sure the minister will be as open as he always is with respect to these matters.
Mr. L. Evans: There is a reference to $12 million for the year 2000 costs, so if there is some kind of a report analyzing or detailing how these monies are being spent.
Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if there is a written report. The honourable member's experience in this area is far more vast than my own, and he might have a better idea about that. If such information exists, these questions are being recorded and will be passed on to the minister.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 26.4. Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increase $15,000,000--pass.
Resolution 26.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $15,000,000 for Enabling Appropriations, Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next one is 27.2 Urban Economic Development Initiatives on page 135. Do we have any questions on that?
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I gather by looking at the Supplementary Information there is some kind of a breakdown. This is what our interest was. There is some sort of a breakdown of where this money is being spent on various activities in the city of Winnipeg, including the Convention Centre, Winnipeg 2000, Tourism Winnipeg, et cetera. I imagine, therefore, a lot of information on these specific programs could not be found in various departments, although I am not sure, like Tourism Winnipeg. I imagine the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Downey) would have a lot of information and answer questions in that respect.
Anyway, I guess, the overall concern of the Legislature has to be how effective are these monies being spent? What are we getting? What results are we getting from them? The Winnipeg Convention Centre obviously is another organization which one had hoped would be self-sustaining but obviously is not and is requiring--as the Keystone Centre in Brandon, its counterpart--ongoing subsidy. But that information is not available here, although I suspect we get it in Public Accounts, after the fact.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Well, this information, some of this relates to the Urban Affairs department. As I read, the Supplementary Information provided under this appropriation is in addition to the financial support directly provided to the City of Winnipeg by Manitoba Urban Affairs. In respect to all this, I am sure the Urban Affairs department is very much a part of the discussions and negotiations leading to support for these various activities like the Convention Centre, Winnipeg 2000, Tourism Winnipeg, Winnipeg Green Team, policing, business expansion--all of these different things listed on page 7 of the Supplementary Information. There is no point at which questions related to these matters cannot be put and responses made. We all want to make sure that the dollars are spent well and that we are getting what we need for our investment.
The member refers to the Keystone Centre in Brandon with which we are both very familiar and attend functions on quite a regular basis. It is true. Even the Keystone Centre, with all the spin-offs that it creates for our community in Brandon, still operates with some assistance. For as long as we do that and for as long as we have been doing that, I can speak about the Keystone Centre a little better having been a former board member there. These dollars are well spent in terms of the economic health and vitality and cultural and educational and all these other aspects of life in western Manitoba. They are well spent.
Now, someone has made the decision that money spent on all these other initiatives is also well spent. I am sure the minister can provide the honourable member with some more background, as well, and I will ask him to do so.
Mr. L. Evans: Mr. Chairman, I think, as I listened to the government House leader, I am reminded of the fact that, one, when it comes to the Keystone Centres or the Winnipeg Convention Centres, these types of organizations, I guess one has to measure them over and above and beyond the narrow financial bottom line. You could make a good case for arguing, you know, what is it doing to the quality of life in the community. How many organizations are assisted? How many tourism dollars are you bringing into the community? Those are all good questions, and if you want to determine whether a subsidy of a certain amount is justifiable, one has to look at all those other factors obviously. But having said that, pass.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 27.2 on page 135, Urban Economic Development Initiatives $16,750,000--pass.
Resolution 27.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $16,750,000 for Other Appropriations, Urban Economic Development Initiatives, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
The next appropriations are Capital Initiatives on page 136. Item 27.5. Capital Initiatives.
Mr. L. Evans: Well, Mr. Chairman, now we are talking about big dollars--$50,000,000 of Capital Initiative. There are so many items here we simply do not have time to discuss all these items. Not that we are necessarily opposed to such expenditures; in fact, we might even make a case for increasing the expenditures in some areas such as Highways Construction or the Innovations Fund. [interjection] Page 136. Is that right? Am I correct?
Mr. McCrae: I am on page 9 of the Supplementary Information. That corresponds.
Mr. L. Evans: We are talking about the same items, and, as I said, we do not necessarily object to these particular expenditures, and, certainly, we do not have time to discuss them.
I would only make one observation, and that is the Port of Churchill Dredging. I find that it is interesting that the Manitoba government is involved in dredging, because I would have thought that this is a federal expenditure, unless this is federal monies that have come over into this pot that we are spending. Maybe the minister, the government House leader, would know that.
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The Port of Churchill Dredging, ports are still federal jurisdiction, and yet we are spending, what is it, $3 million there. Is this because we have federal infrastructure monies allocated to us to spend in that area?
Mr. McCrae: I do not think the honourable member wants me to speculate on the answer, so I will not. But I remind him all his words are on the record, and they are going to be read carefully by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and responses put together for the honourable member.
Mr. L. Evans: Specifically, I wonder if the Minister of Finance would provide us with some more information on the Dredging, and to what extent--is this purely federal monies that have been transferred into that, or is the Province of Manitoba spending money there as well?
Mr. McCrae: Your questions are noted.
Mr. Chairperson: Item 27.5 Capital Initiatives (a) Manitoba Innovations Fund $7,000,000--pass; (b) Health Equipment $5,000,000--pass; (c) Highways Construction $5,000,000--pass; (d) City of Winnipeg Residential Street Repairs $5,000,000--pass; (e) Rural Sewer and Water Supply Projects $4,000,000--pass; (f) Port of Churchill Dredging $3,000,000--pass; (g) University of Manitoba Nursing Building $2,400,000--pass; (h) Correctional Youth Centres $2,100,000--pass; (j) Waterway Crossings $1,500,000--pass; (k) Northern Communities Infrastructure $1,000,000--pass; (m) Other $14,000,000--pass.
Resolution 27.5: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $50,000,000 for Other Appropriations, Capital Initiatives, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.