Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Sport. Does the honourable Minister responsible for Sport have an opening statement?
Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Chairman, I have a brief opening statement. It is my pleasure to place before the House the 1998-99 budget Estimates for amateur sport. I am proud that our government is able to maintain the level of assistance to support sport delivery in Manitoba. In fact, in responding to need, we were able to provide additional funding of some $140,000 this year to support those organizations charged with the responsibility of hosting Pan American Games test events.
The Pan American Games represent a significant undertaking for our province. The test events will help the sport community better prepare to stage the games. The additional financial and technical support we were able to provide through Sport Manitoba will help them in this regard.
While funding to amateur sport has remained constant, changes are occurring in the way the sport is being funded and delivered. A mandated, implemented provincial sport policy and empowered to make the decisions that are in the best interests of the entire sport community, the organization Sport Manitoba is taking sport in this province in a new direction. Categorization of provincial sport-governing bodies implemented on April 1 of this year represents a new way of funding provincial sport organizations. This process places sports in one of five categories based upon the extent to which specific criteria is met and provides a corresponding base level of support. Criteria is athlete focused and reflective of sport policy. It recognizes province-wide opportunities and participation at all levels of development, accessibility of coaching in competitions, inclusion in multisport games and sport culture and tradition.
This process has not taken away from the funding provincial sport-governing bodies receive, rather it has aligned sports with appropriate levels of support based on their activities which are consistent with sport values in our province.
Sport Manitoba continues to review sport delivery and roles and responsibilities within the system. Sport recognition, funding levels to partner groups, the delivery of coaching programs and services among others will be forthcoming. These and future decisions will continue to change the face of sport delivery in our province. Based on a sport policy objective to ensure there is no duplication of services and support to athletes, coaches and officials, a review of coaching delivery has been completed. Considering the need to build and enhance a co-ordinated delivery system, a new coaching delivery model will be implemented. Beginning in September, all coaching responsibilities and activities will be co-ordinated by Sport Manitoba, with all existing programs continuing to be offered.
Sport Manitoba's intent is to eventually move toward a future delivery model based on a partnership of organizations having an interest in coaching. Leadership will continue to be provided by volunteers through a coaches' advisory committee representative of the major stakeholders.
At present, funding to Sport partners is primarily being allocated from a historical perspective. Sport Manitoba's ongoing review of the sport-delivery system will include a review of funding levels to all partner groups. This review will determine if present allocations are effectively meeting the needs of the individual partner groups, and if not, determine the appropriate levels of support that is. This review will also include the development of a sport recognition policy. At present, 76 provincial sport-governing bodies and 20 other sport organizations continue to be recognized, another 18 organizations have made recognition inquiries. The policy will allow Sport Manitoba the flexibility to assess existing sports and a mechanism to deal with emerging sports. The sport recognition policy and new funding strategies are all next steps in a plan that will support the future needs and direction of sport in Manitoba.
We once again can take pride in our achievements. Our most talented athletes remind us of the tremendous potential that exists in our sport community. Jennifer Botterill and Susan Auch were two Manitobans who competed at the 1998 Winter Olympics. Both were Silver Medal winners.
Hosting the 1999 Pan American Games will provide us with a legacy of opportunities for sport in Manitoba into the new millennium.
All Manitobans will benefit from the hosting of the 1998 Grey Cup, the 1999 World Junior Hockey Championships and, of course, the 1999 Pan American Games.
Based on their site evaluations last month, we are hopeful our bid will result in the hosting of the North American Indigenous Games in the year 2002. We have made a commitment to host the 2003 Western Canada Summer Games and have initiated the site selection process.
As much as there is to look forward to, there are also many challenges ahead. Given the mandate, its leadership and the confidence of this government, these challenges are being addressed by Sport Manitoba with a plan that will ensure the future growth and success of amateur sport in our province.
Thank you very much for the opportunity to make those few remarks. I look forward to discussion and questions.
Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Sport for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Radisson, have an opening statement?
Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): No, I do not really have a prepared opening statement. I think that we do not have much time. I did want to just say that I will probably be focusing quite a bit again this year on the Pan Am Games, but I do want to say that I want to have time to ask questions on a number of other areas, particularly following up some of the letters I have sent to the minister on issues related to Sport Manitoba and some of the other games.
So I just want to put that on the record, that I think it is important that we do not sort of neglect--there is so much focus in Sport right now on the Pan Am Games, but there are always other things that are going on. So I just want to recognize that.
Mr. Chairperson: Very good. If we could ask the minister's staff to join us at the table, we would ask the minister to introduce his staff, if he would.
Mr. Stefanson: Right beside me is Mr. Jim Berry, the director of Community Support Programs and other activities; and also Mr. Jeff Hnatiuk, who is the president and CEO of Sport Manitoba.
Mr. Chairperson: Line 28.1.(a) Support Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $15,000.
Ms. Cerilli: As I was just saying, I was going to start off with asking some questions about the Pan Am Games. I just want to clarify: Mr. Berry is with the Pan Am Games organization and with the Community Services committee?
Mr. Stefanson: No, I wanted to clarify Jim's role on the Pan Am. He works for government. He is the Director of Community Support Programs within the government of Manitoba. He also is an ex officio member on behalf of government on the Pan Am Games Society.
Ms. Cerilli: Which department is Community Support Programs with?
Mr. Stefanson: It is a stand-alone department that reports to me. We dealt with the Estimates of the Community Support Programs a few weeks back, and Jim Berry is the director within that area.
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Ms. Cerilli: What is the relationship between Community Support Programs and Sport? Do they fund any of the different Sport organizations? Is that the title he just happens to hold in government and he is really here in his capacity with the Pan Am Games?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, in the summary of expenditures, it is on page 24, item 33, Community Support Programs, and it really dates back when many organizations including Sport were funded directly by Lotteries funds, and the conduit to do that was the area of Community Support Programs. So since then there has been the link to Sport, and, as well, when you look at many of the funding areas receiving funding under Community Support Programs, you will see it is a combination of Sport, Culture, and other nonprofit organizations.
Some of the organizations that receive support under the Community Support Programs are the Winnipeg Football Club, but it is also the Manitoba Community Services Council, the United Way, the Folk Arts Council and so on. So that is the historical link as a result--particularly now with the establishment of Sport Manitoba which, as the member knows, is an independent organization. The liaison from government to that organization is provided through the support provided at the Community Support level, and that is why Jim Berry works for government but liaises with Sport Manitoba, with the Pan Am Games and other sport initiatives.
Ms. Cerilli: Thanks for clarifying that.
I think I am going to start off with asking some questions about the issue related to the Pan Am Games that I think is on the minds of a lot of Winnipeggers and Manitobans, and that has to do with some of the issues around the budgeting, but specifically, I think a lot of people were surprised to see Donovan Bailey at that press conference. I think it is great. I think that it is really exciting that he has made a commitment to the games, to competing here. It is also interesting that he is also on staff, so to speak, that there is a contract with him to assist with marketing and promotion. I think a lot of people are wanting to know how that works, as an athlete who is competing in the games, to also have that kind of a contract.
So, first of all, I want to ask sort of how was the decision to do that arrived at? Who is responsible for making that decision? It is an interesting strategy, and I think it was probably pretty exciting at that press conference. First of all, I want to find out who made that decision and how you arrived at that.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the very specific question, the member is right. It was an exciting day, the day they made the announcement. But in terms of the decision, it was a recommendation from the staff of the Pan Am Games, the senior staff, to the board of directors, and I am told it was ratified by the board of directors. So it was on the recommendation of their senior staff.
Ms. Cerilli: There are all sorts of different divisions in the staff, and I am wondering, was it the Marketing branch, was it communications? Who came up with it? Additionally, what is in the contract? Besides that appearance at the press conference, what else is Donovan Bailey going to do? I have seen the advertisements with his picture on it for the ticket sales, other things like that that he is going to do, and additionally, what is the dollar amount that he is being compensated for that contract?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, as to who came up with it, with the idea, I will have to follow up with the Pan Am Society. I am told it is not uncommon to have these kinds of arrangements with major games and major events.
The recommendation to the board would have come through the president, Mr. Don MacKenzie, but as to whether or not the idea and the concept and the review of it came elsewhere in the organization, I will certainly follow up and get back to the member. I am told as the most recent information that we have, that a contract has not been concluded with Donovan Bailey at this point in time. I will also undertake to find out the status of that and provide as much information as I can to the member.
I know she mentioned at the outset some time constraints. We will certainly take good notes. I will undertake to provide her, as I have done on other issues, with some details and some written communication on any issues that we can not address at this particular time.
Ms. Cerilli: So the minister is saying that he made that one appearance. He has agreed obviously to be part of the ad campaign with his picture on the advertisement for the tickets, but you do not know the other parts of the contract of what else he is going to do.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, again I am told the major undertakings which were announced that day were the two key elements that Donovan Bailey will be participating in the 1999 Pan American Games. The major focus will be, or certainly that day was, related to the launching and the moving forward with ticket sales. As to how else they intend to utilize Mr. Bailey, if there are other areas, we will certainly undertake to get that information.
In terms of the contract or the compensation, the most recent information we have is that had not been concluded. Some of the elements related to compensation that I am told have been discussed with Mr. Bailey relate to compensation for his travel arrangements, compensation for his accommodation arrangements, for family members to be a part of the activities during the Pan Am Games and some of those types of things. But beyond that, I will have to get further details from the Pan Am Games organization.
Ms. Cerilli: So would he also receive a salary or fee for appearing in the ad?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am told that is conceivable, and I will undertake to get any details related to that.
Ms. Cerilli: Do you know what Mr. Bailey would be compensated for for ads for other events or products, endorsements, that kind of thing?
Mr. Stefanson: I just want to clarify. The question was are we aware or do we know whether he gets compensated for similar types of things?
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Ms. Cerilli: If he has done this kind of appearance for other events or products, and what his rate has been for that kind of appearance.
Mr. Stefanson: Again, we believe that he has, but in terms of further details about for what events or organizations and any information that we could obtain around compensation, we will have to follow up.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, was Mr. Berry at the meeting where this was approved, at the board meeting?
Mr. Stefanson: I think I have to clarify one issue. I am told that the issue of retaining Donovan Bailey went to the executive of the board of directors. It has not gone to the entire board of directors and will go there, I am told, when there is an arrangement to approve, whether it is a contract or whatever formal arrangement is to be reviewed and approved. But it apparently had gone to and obviously been proceeded with on the basis of the executive of the board of directors of the Pan Am Games, on the recommendation from the senior management of the Pan Am Games.
Ms. Cerilli: So what you are telling me is there is no contract yet. You do not really know what the range for Donovan Bailey's stipend is going to be, and he has already started working for the games.
So my next question is: what is the budget? Potentially, what has been budgeted for Mr. Bailey and is this coming out of the marketing budget?
Mr. Stefanson: As I have indicated to the member, the best information we have, sitting here today, is that a contract has been not concluded. But as I have indicated, I will undertake to get the most recent status from the Pam Am Games Society directly. The Pan Am Games, as the member knows, has a fairly significant budget. Within that budget they do have a marketing component. It is our speculation that that would be the budget line that it would be coming out of, their marketing. But again, from what source within their budget they will be funding any contractual arrangements or agreements with Donovan Bailey, I will provide those details upon receipt from the Pan Am Games.
Ms. Cerilli: The press conference was on May 14, was it not? The press clippings I have are from May 15, so I am assuming that the press conference was on the 14th. So this has been an arrangement or an agreement, a partnership, that has been in the works for some time. Do you have a deadline for when you want to have a contract and an agreement completed and presented before the entire board of the Pan Am Games Society?
Mr. Stefanson: It is my understanding and expectation that the final arrangements should be concluded shortly. As I have indicated, upon receipt of that information I will provide as much as I can to the member for Radisson.
Ms. Cerilli: I have been in this situation before with the minister, where I come to these Estimates with some sense of the questions I am going to ask, and I do not get very many answers. I simply get a response: I will get you as much of that information as I can when I can. Sometimes, then, I get letters back from the minister which gives me some information, but it is really not as good as the opportunity to sit here and get the information first-hand.
So the Pan Am Games Society has been engaged with Mr. Bailey or his agent in negotiations since, I am sure, the beginning of May at least. I am surprised that the minister does not have a little bit more information about this, knowing how much athletes of the calibre of Mr. Bailey get for endorsements, public appearances, and that sort of thing. I am concerned that there is not more of an agreement in place when he is already working for the society. Maybe the minister can tell me at least when the next meeting is of the Pan Am Games Society and if on that agenda this item was going to come up and there is going to be some agreement at that point.
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Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, I do attempt to get back to the member usually quite expeditiously with her questions and have a few letters to her on different issues that she has raised, and I certainly will get back to her on any issues that we cannot provide her with answers here today. I am told the overall board of directors of the Pan Am Games meets quarterly, so their next scheduled meeting is not until September. The executive committee meets much more often, and, as I have already indicated, this issue has been to the executive committee of the board of directors of the Pan Am Games.
So I will certainly undertake to get more specific details, and, as I indicated, our most recent discussions are probably a week or 10 days old with the Pan Am official, not realizing that we were going at the last minute to be here this afternoon. But, with our most recent discussion about a week or 10 days ago, there might even be more definitive information on the arrangement with Donovan Bailey right now. The overall marketing budget for the Pan Am Games is $1,325,000. So, as I indicated earlier, it is a significant allocation for marketing and does provide them with the resources to do various initiatives in that area. I will undertake to find out as quickly as possible if there is any more information I can provide the member on this issue.
Mr. Denis Rocan, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, the minister has quoted for me the amount in the marketing budget that is in the revised budget that he has provided for me with his letter of May 9, I think it is May 7.
I am wondering how much of that marketing budget is spoken for, or, if you will, that is spent already, and, if you will, when you provide me with information, give me a more detailed breakdown of the marketing budget line; also, the budget line for image, media and communications, because I guess it is conceivable that some of Mr. Bailey's fee could come from that line, as well, which is almost $5 million.
Mr. Stefanson: I will undertake to get her a more detailed breakdown of any budget elements of both of those categories and also to provide information on what has been spent to date.
Ms. Cerilli: Further, in terms of Mr. Bailey and his support and appearance at the games and work on promotion of the tickets, I am wondering if the minister has been asked by others in the community and the media particularly for the fee or the amount that Mr. Bailey is going to be compensated.
Mr. Stefanson: No, I have no request for that information directed at me. I checked with both Mr. Bailey and Mr. Hnatiuk as to whether or not they have had any request to them, and they indicate that they have not received any requests either.
Ms. Cerilli: Does the minister think that this is an issue that, you know, it is your business to know a little bit more about the details, especially someone of the calibre of Mr. Bailey? It is a big event I think to have him endorsing the games in this way and being part of the advertising campaign. I am surprised that none of the media have made inquiries about this. So I am wondering if you now think that you should be apprised of the partnership that you and the government or the Pan Am Society are engaged in.
Mr. Stefanson: A couple of things. Obviously for various strategic reasons, the Pan Am Games Society kept this announcement basically under wraps until the day of the announcement. I was made aware of it the day before the announcement. Again, we have a situation where we have the Pan Am Games Society with a budget now of $140 million and a lot of people serving on both the executive committee and on other committees and on the board who we have an awful lot of confidence in as a community I think, as well as a government.
I do get regular status reports on how the games are proceeding, various issues, various financial issues, and we did ask, as the member can tell, specifically about this issue, but the best information we have is that no contract has been entered into. I have already outlined sort of some of the general areas that we were told were going to be supported related to travel, related to accommodation and so on, so we certainly will want to see the details of the final arrangement with Mr. Bailey. I do not want to leave the impression with the member that we do not want to see those details, but the way the issue unfolded and the fact that we do have a structure in place that is mandated to run the games even though they do have a responsibility to be keeping governments and other supporters informed.
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Ms. Cerilli: Well, the minister has clarified, then, one of the other issues I wanted to ask about, and that is definitely this partnership with Donovan Bailey was added to the games as a strategy fairly recently, that this was something that was not part of the initial marketing. Well, we have gone through a number of budget revisions since the bid, so this is obviously something that has been added on.
I guess the concern that a lot of people would have is the cost for the games is now over $145 million, and I know the minister has said before that there is not going to be any deficits with the games. But, you know, entering this kind of a partnership and not having it all sorted out, I am surprised that this has occurred. I am wondering if there is the possibility that this kind of an approach is going to further escalate the costs of the games beyond the $145 million.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
Mr. Stefanson: The summary that I forwarded the member on the revised budget shows, after some other budget revisions, a net revised budget of just over $140 million. As we both have pointed out, they do have marketing budgets of $1.3 million, in excess of $1.3 million, and almost $5 million for image, media and communications.
I am told with absolute certainty that any arrangements with Mr. Bailey will be from within existing budget amounts, that this will not be incremental, that there is no need for any incremental resources and that the Pan Am Games Society and the management team and everybody is committed and believes that the games can now be delivered within these revised budgets which have been put in place as a result of some additional support from government and some other adjustments based on negotiations with the Pan Am Sports Organization.
Ms. Cerilli: One of the other areas that is of great concern as we are approaching the end of--well, I guess we are not approaching the end, but we are getting well into the warm weather for this summer, and that is all the preliminary events that have to be staged. This is an area that is of great concern, and I have raised questions and concerns about this before with the minister.
I was looking at the previous budget when it was $122 million for the games. The amount budgeted then for the preliminary events was $500,000, and now that we are at a budget of about $140 million, it is still $500,000 for those preliminary events. As we know, this is putting a lot of pressure on the sport-governing bodies and the sport groups in the province, and I am wondering why that budget line was not revised.
It seems like it is not enough. It seems like there is a lot of expenditures and costs associated with hosting these events which in some cases are almost as big as the Pan Am events themselves for those sports to host. So how does the minister respond to those problems?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the budget of the Pan Am Games, as it relates to the test events, the projected number of test events has been pretty constant through the original budget and with the revised budget. So you have a situation where the Pan Am Games Society is providing both direct financial support and some technical support. We also have a situation where Sport Manitoba is providing some technical support. As well, as I mentioned in my opening comments, Sport Manitoba has provided an additional $140,000 to assist the provincial sport-governing bodies. So that has been some incremental support to the sport-governing bodies.
We have a situation where some of these governing bodies would be hosting these events basically irrespective of the Pan Am Games. We have many of them who are hosting their events without a great deal of difficulty in terms of their financial arrangements, but we do have some organizations that are struggling to meet the financial requirements to host the events. It really is quite varied in terms of looking at all of the different test events and their budgets and the amount of support that they are receiving from the Pan Am Games and from the province. On an overall basis, I think this has been very good for sport, it has been very good for our economy, but there are at least a few of the sport-governing bodies that are struggling with their financial arrangements to put on their host events or test events.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, my question is, though, the whole idea that the budget would remain constant. I mean, there have been more athletes coming for the games, more sports have been added. So I find it difficult that the preliminary events would remain constant. The budget, I think, would need to reflect that, and what the sport organizations are saying is that it should and that some of them are really suffering.
Does the minister have a list, then, of the ones that are really having difficulty, and, you know, what kind of concerns have been expressed by the sports? I mean, are some of these sports going to incur a debt? Are they going to be the ones saddled with the debt or deficit that is going to burden them for a longer period of time after the games or even after these events?
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Mr. Stefanson: Well, the number of test events has been fairly constant for the last couple of years. We have been consistently talking about in the range of 40 test events. What Sport Manitoba, and I believe the Pan Am Games Society and others have been doing, is working with these groups to try and maximize the resources that are dedicated, to try and pool resources wherever possible so we are not getting overlap and duplication amongst the various test events. Just recently, Sport Manitoba has done an analysis of them, and I am told approximately five or six are struggling with their finances.
So what I will undertake to provide the member is a status report of the test events and to highlight for her, as she requested, the ones that are experiencing some difficulty.
Ms. Cerilli: Well, if the minister has that in front of him, maybe he can just list those five or six sports right now and give me a sense of the kind of difficulties that they are having.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, well, Sport Manitoba, as I indicated, has done an analysis of the ones that--they almost have them in three categories: those that are experiencing a fair degree of difficulty; those that maybe have some challenges are sort of in between; and then those that are well underway. They have highlighted for me a few of the ones that would fall in the category of struggling right now. One is rowing, and it is not necessarily a financial issue in each case. Like in the case of rowing, their total budget is just over $12,000, but they need some decisions regarding course, docks, aligners' huts, starters, tower, and so on.
So there can be a financial impact, but there can also be some other issues that need to be addressed for the sport-governing body to be able to proceed with the hosting of the test events. So it is not always necessarily financial, although in some cases it is financial. We are also going back through Sport Manitoba and working with these organizations on their budget to be sure that they are reasonable budgets and, obviously, to determine whether or not there are any areas that can be reduced or, as I already said, any areas that can be shared with other sport-governing bodies.
Another one that I know the member has some interest in is water skiing. Its budget is just over $91,000, so, in part, theirs, I believe, is financial at this point in time. So that is another organization that we are working with. Another one is canoeing and kayaking. It has some of the similar concerns as rowing does, because again their budget is just over $12,000. So I am not sure it is as much of a financial issue there as it is some other obstacles. Another one is equestrian dressage, and theirs would be potentially partly financial. Their budget again is larger. It is $36,500.
So those are four areas that currently have some significant issues that have to be addressed. As I say, we are working continually with all of the sport-governing bodies in terms of providing various forms of assistance to help them host these test events.
Ms. Cerilli: As I understand it, part of the problem, though, is that these events do not get their money up front, that they have to sort of prove themselves, and then they are reimbursed after the fact. Can the minister explain if that is the case?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the member is correct. That has been identified as a problem by some of the sport-governing bodies. We have certainly taken immediate steps where we can to deal with it. I am told as of just last Friday that we have forwarded some of our provincial government support directly to the sport-governing bodies in advance. We will also pursue that issue with the Pan Am Games Society in terms of the timing of their support, so that has been a concern for some organizations. We are certainly doing what we can to help them address that.
Ms. Cerilli: Have any of these organizations had to do their own financing, take out lines of credit or that kind of thing, or is that all being done through the provincial government?
Mr. Stefanson: Again, Mr. Chairman, I am told that it, of course, varies from sport to sport and event to event, but I am told that, yes, some have made financial arrangements in terms of obtaining whether it is lines of credit or other financing to help host their event, in part recognizing a few things. I am told, as well, the majority of these events will be charging ticket sales for admission, so there is a bit of a timing difference there in terms of what they expect to generate at the gate.
Obviously, there is the whole issue of what private fundraising they can do, as well, and so on, but if she has specific concerns about any of these or if she wants me to provide her some general information on all of them, I can certainly undertake to provide that. But, yes, some are doing what she asked. Some are getting interim financing put in place to ensure they can put on the test event.
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Ms. Cerilli: That really does confirm then that some of them are going to be in a real financial crunch, if they are having to do that kind of borrowing. Knowing that these are all small non-profits, volunteer boards, it could be a real burden, and that is what we are hearing, that it is a real problem. Given that the minister has said it is not for all the sports, but for those that are, they are out there on their own as a volunteer organization trying to run an international-calibre event. It should not be taken lightly.
I would appreciate it if I could get a copy of the report that the Sport Manitoba has done, as well as the information that the minister has said on all the sports in their contingency plans, or their ways that they are trying to deal with this. I am concerned that it seems to be a flaw in the original budgeting. I look back. I have an executive summary here from an initial economic impact statement, where the initial Pan Am bid was 77.4 million. We are way beyond that now, and that was back for 1992.
I am wondering back then what the budget was for some of these kind of expenditures, if they have been given the consideration that they require. I am wondering if any of the events are even at the risk where they are not going to qualify this summer, whether venues are not going to be able to get their act together, so to speak, to offer the test events as required by the various international organizations and qualify. Are some of them at risk of not having their venues qualify?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to leave the impression at all that any of this is being taken lightly. That is why Sport Manitoba dedicated a number of their people to work with all of these organizations on their budgets, requirements, venues, and so on. I am told virtually the majority of these are not in any jeopardy. There might be one or two that are experiencing some problems right now that are being reviewed, and it is not necessarily always a money issue. It can be an issue related to other issues, like venues and so on.
So Sport Manitoba is working with them, along with the Pan Am Games Society. Certainly it is not anybody's intention to leave any of these sport-governing bodies in a major financial dilemma as a result of hosting a test event. So I am confident at the end of the day that all of these can be worked out. But there are currently some challenges with a few of the test events, no doubt about it.
Ms. Cerilli: The minister can tell me which ones are most at risk. He has listed here four of them for me. Three of them are water sports, and I know last year we were really concerned about the Gimli harbour. I am not sure if that has been taken care of, and if that is going to be ready for their test events, but I would ask that the minister just tell me specifically which ones have deadlines. I am hoping that all these are scheduled; all these test events must be scheduled at least, and that what we are trying to do is meet that event as a deadline. Can he tell me which ones of those are fast approaching?
The other thing I am interested in is--you mentioned earlier that Sport Manitoba is providing technical support to sport-governing bodies related to these preliminary events. I would like you to describe to me what that technical support is and if it is just, in fact, doing the study that you have talked about and now assisting them, if it is anything in addition to that.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I am told the four that I outlined for the member are the four with the greatest challenges at this point in time, but I am also told that everybody expects that they can be overcome, so that the test events will proceed. The member referred to the Gimli venue for sailing, and again I am told that any issues there are being addressed, that again that sailing at Gimli certainly can be carried on in that community.
What Sport Manitoba is doing is much more than this study. There is actually a separate unit now established, a test event unit headed by Janet McMahon who I think the member probably knows, who has been involved in sport for many years, does an excellent job for sport in our province. She has two full-time assistants with her, so there are really three full-time people as of now working with all of the sport-governing bodies on all aspects of hosting the test events, from their budgets, their financing requirements to their venues to their equipment requirements to co-ordinating between the various organizations and venues and so on.
Certainly, Sport Manitoba is lending significant support to ensuring that these test events come off well, and, as we have already discussed, do not leave any ongoing problems for sport-governing bodies in our province.
Ms. Cerilli: I remember when, it was a couple of years back, we first started discussing the Pan Am Games. One of the concerns that I had heard and I brought to the minister was that the Pan Am Games were going to really be a burden on sport-governing bodies. There was a concern that they would take up all the energy and attention and that the usual ongoing developmental programs and competitions were going to suffer. It seems like that would certainly be happening in these organizations you have described to me so far, that they are probably pretty preoccupied with the test events, and the usual activities that they run throughout the summers are going to be either not run or disregarded. They are not going to have the attention that they require.
The other concern that I have that would also support that, that this is happening, that sport bodies and sports are having their other activities suffer because the Pan Am Games are drawing up a lot of attention and resources and time, is that there has been a number of secondments through sport bodies and from Sport Manitoba to the Pan Am Games.
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So I am wondering if the minister can tell me the number of secondments and staff that are now being transferred to work on the Pan Am Games. You have just described for me the special unit to prepare for the test events, which has three full-time people. I am assuming those previously were working on other things through Sport Manitoba in support of all these different sport-governing bodies.
Explain to me how the sports are dealing with this. Is this not also a concern, that these Pan Am Games are drawing away from the developmental programs and activities usually conducted by all the different sport organizations in the province?
Mr. Stefanson: First of all, in terms of test event unit, the two assistants to Janet McMahon are incremental positions, so that is not putting a strain on existing resources.
In terms of secondments to the Pan Am Games, on a net basis it is four positions are seconded over to the Pan Am Games. The president and CEO of Sport Manitoba indicates he has been able to reallocate some functions and responsibilities and still meet the needs, the ongoing needs, of the sporting community through Sport Manitoba.
The member is right that by hosting these events it does put a degree of pressure and even strain on resources in some cases, on volunteers in some cases, but I think the tradeoff for that is many of them recognize that there is also a tremendous opportunity here for their sport in terms of hosting a national event, in terms of what opportunities the athletes will have, the coaches, the volunteers, the experiences from participating in that, what they will learn from that, and so on.
As well, some of the events are existing events that would be taking place somewhere in Canada, and certainly Manitoba would be going after some of the events anyway. Yes, it does put a strain on resources, but I think the sporting community would still say that it is worth it in terms of all of the other benefits that come from hosting either testing events, and, of course, ultimately hosting the Pan American Games. But it does put some strain on some of the resources and the volunteers.
Ms. Cerilli: The strain that the minister is talking about would also occur, you know, over a number of years for these sports as they prepare. It is not just for the games here themselves. The benefits that the minister is talking about may only be felt afterwards when, hopefully, there will be more volunteers that are brought in to help with the different sports, and we are going to have some more facilities than that.
In the meantime, I have heard that the sports are concerned, and I am wondering if the minister is aware if there are sports that have had to not offer some events which are developmental in nature because they are dealing with the Pan Am Games, and secondly, if there are some sports that have staff who may not be seconded, but have just out and out left and are hired by the Pan Am Games and now there are some sports that are without staff or having to find new staff.
Mr. Stefanson: From Sport Manitoba's perspective, I am told that they have not had any sports that have come to them indicating they had to cut out developmental events or other undertakings as a result of participating in the test events or the lead up to the Pan American Games. So I am certainly not aware of any specific instances where that has happened.
In terms of the issue of staff, the member is correct. Some sport-governing bodies have had some staff leave to go to the Pan Am Games. They, of course, have still had the resources to turn around and hire people to replace them, but that does lead to a transition period, some adjustments and so on. But, again, for our sporting community, on an overall basis, that can be healthy that you are getting more people getting the opportunity to participate in sport, to participate in the events and many other issues related to sport.
But, again, it is just one more issue that, while it is an opportunity on the one hand, it can put some added pressure on some of the sport-governing bodies to adjust to a new staffperson. Of course, that can happen under scenarios other than hosting major games. People do move on to other opportunities, but some are no doubt leaving to experience being a staffperson with the Pan American Games.
Ms. Cerilli: The minister had said earlier that Sport Manitoba has an additional $140,000 for sport groups related to the hosting of test events. Was that out of their existing budget for this year, or is that additional money?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the $140,000 is incremental in this year's budget, over and above the 1997-98 budget, so it is additional resources provided to Sport. The breakdown being $100,000 of it will flow directly to the sport-governing bodies in the form of a grant to support the hosting of the test events. The remaining $40,000 is effectively utilized by Sport Manitoba to provide the additional resources to support these testing events and other activities.
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Ms. Cerilli: So let me see if I am understanding you. You are telling me that the $140,000 is just an increase over last year's budget estimate, and it is being used by Sport Manitoba. That increase is being used by Sport Manitoba mostly for the test events.
Mr. Stefanson: The member is basically correct. If she looks at page 125, line item 28.1.(b) Sport Manitoba, it is up by the $140,000; $100,000 of that will go directly to the sport-governing bodies in the form of grants. The other $40,000 is used by Sport Manitoba, and it is effectively the way of providing for the unit head of the test event unit.
Ms. Cerilli: So what you are telling me then is Sport Manitoba, for their existing programs, their budget is the same as last year. No, wait a second. I do not have the main budget Estimates book with me. I am using the Sport Estimates. I am on page 11.
Mr. Stefanson: On page 11, the same item I was referring to is item 28.1.(b) where you see Sport Manitoba is at $10,205,000, up from $10,065,000. So that is the $140,000 increase in their budget.
Ms. Cerilli: So it sort of confirms what we were just saying, that all the new resources are going to the test events.
Mr. Stefanson: That is basically correct. Any incremental resources over and above last year's budget are going to the test events.
Ms. Cerilli: And those are all lotteries funds. Oh, it does not work that way anymore.
Mr. Stefanson: The member just answered her own question. It does not work that way anymore. As she recalls, we bring lottery revenues into general revenue.
Ms. Cerilli: Oh, you are right. Okay, the other area I wanted to ask the minister about is the changes in the allotment in the budget for tickets, or revenue. I am wondering how the minister and the Pan Am Games Society anticipate that they are going to go from raising $8.4 million in revenue to $12 million in revenue?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I just want to clarify, is the member working off of a document that I sent her on May 7 or off of some other document?
Ms. Cerilli: If you want to direct me, Mr. Minister, to something in the letter, I have it here. I am not sure now, I think one of the sources of the notes that I have was a Free Press article. But also we have looked at the bid versus the new budget and the ticket prices in the new budget for $140 million, our estimated ticket revenue at $12 million, and previously the $122 million budget had $8.463 million as the revenue. So I am looking at a combination of stuff that was in the Free Press, as well as our own research comparing the two budgets.
Mr. Stefanson: Not that I question the accuracy of the Free Press, but I do not have the detailed breakdown here with me this afternoon. I will undertake to get that breakdown for the member, and, if those numbers are accurate, or whatever the numbers show, I will provide a rationale and an explanation of any of the changes from the original business plan through to the new business plan.
Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Minister, this is one of the concerns I have with the budget that you have sent to me, and I said this before, about the fact that it does not have any revenue showing from the business and sponsorship from the private sector and sponsorships. It also does not have any revenue showing specifically from tickets. It has a total revenue now of $140.5 million, and both those two things I just mentioned are missing.
So I think that you need to bring some of this information when you come to Estimates, or it kind of makes this whole exercise a little bit meaningless.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, well, the $140 million is broken down in part between the government and a few other sources of revenue. The member will see the net marketing revenue is a little over between $33 million and $34 million. I will undertake to provide the member, if she is looking for more details relative to that, with more details in that category.
Ms. Cerilli: That is not what my document--my figures are a little bit different on the one that I have--oh, minus cost of sales.
Anyway, I do not want to deal specifically with the details of the figures. My concern right now is that it does not include anything on tickets, and you are saying you do not know what the revenue projection is now on this new budget for the tickets.
My original question was how are you going to go from a 30 percent increase in revenue from ticket sales? That is quite a big increase. It is approximately 30 percent. I wanted some explanation for that.
You have a few more sports. Are you going to sell more tickets? Are the tickets going to be more costly? I think people will be very concerned about that. I remember originally hearing that some tickets were going to be as low as $5. Now I am hearing the tickets are going to be between $8 up to $135 if you want to go to the front seats at the opening ceremonies. So already the low-end tickets have a $3 increase in price. Again, those are just from reports that may not be the official reports. I am asking for you to provide me with the official numbers.
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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, first of all, in terms of the marketing revenue number I read, it should be the same. It is a copy of the same document that was attached to the letter that I sent to the member, which shows gross marketing revenue less cost of sales and comes down to a net of about $33.7 million. I am just estimating it.
So that is the area that I have indicated I will get a more detailed breakdown for the member and compare that to the original plan, but you will notice on the original plan, there is not that much of a variation on an overall basis. They were talking about roughly $32.7 million to $33.7 million. So a swing of about a million dollars in that total envelope of marketing, whether it be ticket sales and other marketing initiatives, obviously private-sector support and so on.
So, on an overall basis, the amount is up a million dollars, and I have indicated I will undertake to provide the member with the various breakdowns within that category.
In terms of ticket prices, that information is certainly available. It was headed up by Mr. Paul Robson the day they announced the ticket prices for the Pan Am Games. I recall that day he had some comparisons of other major events, and my recollection is that the ticket prices for the Pan Am Games in Manitoba stack up very well relative to other major events. Certainly, it is their intention to do as much as possible to make sure that they are affordable and that we create an opportunity for as many Manitobans as possible to attend different events. We fully expect to have great crowds at most of these venues.
So I think the comparisons show that the prices are not out of line, but if the member wants me to get the package of information and the information that was released that day, I am certainly more than willing to do that.
Ms. Cerilli: First, I would like to get all that information. I wish I had gotten it before the Estimates. This discussion would probably be a lot more useful. I mean, the concern that most people are going to have would be that when the budget is increased by now almost $20 million, that has come from ticket revenue as well as from the public coffers. It seems like there is less money that is going to be coming from the business community. I know that the minister has confirmed that already. Previously I have asked that question. So I am wanting a little bit more detail about how much more is going to be coming from tickets. It is unfortunate that the minister cannot provide that information now on the record in Estimates.
The other thing that I wanted to find out about in terms of tickets is--well, first of all, I would be really interested in seeing the agreement with PASO, if that is something that the minister could also send to me, that there is, I guess, a formula that is always used in these events with the Pan Am Games international body. That also has an agreement on the ticket revenue, am I correct? I am wondering if the minister can explain to me what that ticket revenue agreement is and what the percentage is that they get, and if they get their percentage first, or if they are sort of guaranteed certain amounts first, or how that works.
Mr. Stefanson: Again, working off of that same summary budget that we were looking at a minute ago--and I am sure the member noted that--if you look at footnote No. 2, it does indicate that reduction of the PASO ticket revenue distribution from $1.5 million to $516,000, which is currently under negotiation with PASO, which would generate that additional increase of almost a million dollars that I spoke to earlier. That is what causes the increase of a million dollars in total marketing revenue.
I am told those negotiations have been going well with PASO and that they are expected to be concluded on this basis. In terms of the agreement with PASO, I am not aware of any reason why that agreement could not be made available, and I will certainly undertake to pursue that.
Ms. Cerilli: So does the minister know now what percentage they get, or we are going to get and they will now get, if this change is made?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will have to get the details. I am told that originally it was a percentage but obviously, as part of the whole revised budget, that is one of the issues that the Pan Am Games Society has gone back to PASO on, as noted in that footnote. I will undertake to determine the basis of the $516,000 and confirm for the member the status of negotiations on that adjustment.
Ms. Cerilli: I have already expressed my concern about the lack of detail in the revenue side of the budget that you have given to me, and I am not sure if this is the same budget page that is from the documents that are used by the Pan Am Games Society, but I find it a problem that it lacks so much detail. It lacks any detail, really, on the revenue side, especially when you can see on the expenditure side that there are a lot more specific areas that are described.
So I am wondering if there is another budget that you have, if the revised budget is going to have a complete book developed like this one that was done, the business plan that was done. Is there a revised business plan? Could we get a copy of that? You said that you would do your best to get it to me.
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Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to leave the impression that on the revenue side there is a great deal more detail. If you look at the components of revenue, the member, I believe, is really focusing mostly on the marketing revenue out of a $140-million budget. Obviously, some of the components of the marketing revenue would be the ticket sales, would be the private-sector support, would be any television support. Those would be the major components.
The other category is Other Income, which is $2.5 million out of a $140-million budget. That would be a number of small sundry items, but I could undertake to get some more detail in that area. It is some of the breakdown of the marketing revenue components that I gather she is interested in seeing, and I will certainly undertake to provide that to her.
As we have already discussed, that element of the budget has basically remained the same under both business plans in terms of the slight adjustment for PASO from business plan 1A which was when it was at $145 million. In the adjustment, that is now a result of negotiations with PASO. I will undertake to provide her with a more detailed breakdown and description of those areas.
Ms. Cerilli: Okay. My question was is there going to be another business plan, or is there another business plan?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, all of the elements of the business plan are in place, because to get to the final budget amount, each of these expenditure areas obviously went through the analysis, the justification for the adjustment. So those elements are in place. Whether they pulled it together in one book, I would have to get back to the member, but certainly the elements of those areas have all of the components of what would ultimately make up a business plan.
Ms. Cerilli: Just to clarify, as well, the revenue does not delineate the specific levels of government amounts either. You know, it is just lumped in there all as government. I am also wondering if the line Government: Other Programs, if that amount of just over a million dollars corresponds with the departmental in-kind services.
In a letter you sent me, you detailed supports coming from Education, Environment, Government Services and Justice. Is that what is defined in there? Does that include the other initiatives through the Winnipeg Development Agreement?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, yes, the member I believe is correct with some of the elements that she is describing as making up Government: Other Programs. I can certainly undertake to provide some more detail, but it would be the kinds of initiatives supported through the province, through the federal government, through the city, through some in-kind services and other services. The $101.5 million, I think the member knows that the breakdown of that is $49 million from the federal government, $42.5 million from the provincial and $10 million from the City of Winnipeg. That makes up the $101.5 million.
Ms. Cerilli: The other thing that the Pan Am Games Society sent us was a list of the corporate family as of January 13, 1998, the number of the corporate sponsors, but it does not include the amounts or the value of in-kind support. I am wondering if that is something else the minister knows.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will certainly undertake to provide the member what I can in that area, recognizing that, I think, from the Pan Am Games Society perspective, to date, I believe, with most of their major sponsors they have given a range of support. They have not provided necessarily a great deal of detail around whether it is cash or in kind.
I am told that in part the rationale behind that is the whole issue of conflicts and/or competition in terms of some of the other sponsors they are going after. So certainly the details of that will be information that, in terms of the final amounts, will be made public, should be made public in terms of the levels of support I believe. In terms of the timing of that, that is an issue for the society in terms of some of the other organizations they are going after for support.
I will certainly pursue that issue and provide the member with as much information as I can at this time, recognizing that one sensitivity that the Games Society has in terms of their ability to attract corporate support, and also, I guess, recognizing that I do believe they sign agreements with each of these organizations, and there might be provisions within the agreements which preclude the release of certain information at certain times.
I will certainly pursue it and undertake to provide as much information as I can to the member at this stage on the issue of sponsorship.
Ms. Cerilli: So, if I go back to the budget, the second revision, which is $140.5 million, what would be the budget revenue line that would be private sponsorship, just in total?
Mr. Stefanson: I was just trying to clarify. Maybe what the member is asking for is the item referred to in the letter I sent her on May 7, point four. I am wondering if there is something beyond that that provides the budgeted portion related to sponsorship, licensing, television and local fundraising.
Obviously, within the marketing area that I am going to provide her a detailed breakdown of, there are the other issues like the ticket sales and so on that ultimately get us up to the gross level of $49 million, less the cost of sales for our net budget.
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Ms. Cerilli: That is right. I appreciate that. So the actual listed there, $19 million, is the actual to date.
Mr. Stefanson: That is correct.
Ms. Cerilli: And by the end of the games that will have gone up to $25 million.
Mr. Stefanson: That is correct, hopefully at a minimum.
Ms. Cerilli: The other issue that I wanted to deal with is in terms of the staffing at the games. One of the concerns that has been expressed to me is that there has not been very much hiring of local Spanish-speaking staff from the Hispanic community, from the Latino communities. Can you tell me the number of staff that have been hired? Of the 170-some people, how many of those are local people who are Spanish speaking from those communities?
Mr. Stefanson: That specific question I will follow up, and I will get the information in terms of the number of Spanish-speaking individuals who are employed by the Pan American Games. I think the member raises as part of that, the important question about creating opportunities for Manitobans through the Pan American Games. That certainly has been the message from our government to the society and to the organizers, that every effort should be utilized to allow opportunities for Manitobans to be employed, Manitoba businesses to get the work, and that at the end of the day, we would expect that the vast majority of those kinds of activities will have been fulfilled by Manitobans or Manitoba businesses.
I am told, out of the 170 staff at the Pan Am Games, 14 of those 170 are currently non-Manitobans.
Ms. Cerilli: What is the average salary over there? Maybe break that down between sort of management and other different employment categories.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will undertake to get that information for the member.
Ms. Cerilli: Maybe I will approach this in a different way then, because the business plan that was prepared based on the $122-million budget has a very detailed description of the personnel that are going to be hired. It lists them in each category: senior management, management, salaried staff, wage staff, seconded personnel. It lists the numbers for each month leading up to the games in '99, beginning in, which year is it, '96. So it is '98 now, and the minister said that they are still following the same business plan. So that suggests to me that there has then been no changes in the budget allotment for staffing.
I am wondering if that is correct or if part of the increase in the budget has been due to increase in staff costs.
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, the total salary budget--I think as the member knows, but I will just outline it to be certain--from day one of the beginning of the Pan Am Games process in this budget through to completion is $16.8 million. So that obviously straddles several years. The salaries paid to date, to the end of May of 1998, were $6.44 million. I guess it only partly addresses her first question, but for the year ending December 31, 1997, under The Public Sector Compensation Act, the Pan Am Games Society indicated that for that year they had 11 individuals who earned over $50,000 out of their total employees during 1997.
Obviously, that continues to change and evolve. [interjection] This was the year ending December 31, 1997, the last calendar year. The Pan Am Games Society had 11 individuals who earned over the $50,000 threshold with one of them being at $50,500 and the highest being at $120,000.
Ms. Cerilli: So my other question was are any of the increases in the budget due to increased salary costs?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I believe the answer is yes, and I will undertake to provide the member with further details.
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Ms. Cerilli: Would some of these increases in the costs for staff be due to hiring consultants that are making a business of staging major games? I mean, some of the reports have said that people are getting a thousand dollars a day as a fee. Is that something that was unexpected with the initial bid and budgeting, and now you are finding that this is the new era of these large events?
Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chair, I think what I should do with this very specific question is get the member the precise details of the salary budget based on the old budget, if that is what she would like to see, the salary budget on the new budget, because obviously there are salary elements within all of the individual categories. As part of that review, I will also address the issue that she raises, whether it is on a contract basis or a salary basis, are any of these arrangements over and above what was in the original budget as well? I refer to the fact there are 14 non-Manitobans involved, so I will be sure that that is included as part of the analysis as well.
Ms. Cerilli: I guess the real interesting question would be: these 14 non-Manitobans, if they are some of the people brought in on these big high-ticket consulting fees, how much of the budget are they getting, you know, of the total salaries or contract budget for employees and work done? How much is being done, or how much is being given to those 14 non-Manitobans? That would be another interesting kind of thing.
Mr. Stefanson: I will undertake to provide that, as well, in terms of the total cost in as much detail in the breakdown, in terms of the various roles that those 14 people are playing and why they had to be drawn from outside of Manitoba.
Ms. Cerilli: Just to comment on that, I know if we go back to the Pan Am Games held in Winnipeg the last time, it is almost like folklore. People talk about, you know, the guy down the street that painted hundreds of posts for signs. I mean, this is the kind of thing that you hear, and I am wondering if that is not happening anymore.
The minister has said that there is an effort being made to, you know, sort of purchase and shop locally, but I am wondering if this is something that the government is really trying to address, that as much of the benefit of having these games is going to be local, not only just in terms of the business side of it, but also that sense of community and we are putting on these games here at home in Manitoba.
Mr. Stefanson: Certainly, my objective is exactly what the member just outlined, and we are going to have some 15,000 volunteers involved. She is right. It is more than just business; it is the volunteers and the various ways that people get involved and support the games. That was definitely one of the most significant outcomes of the 1967 games. I think it is important that we as a provincial government and all of the partners in this have that as the same objective for the 1999 games. So I agree with her, and that certainly is my objective in terms of the '99 games.
Ms. Cerilli: Mentioning the volunteers, one of the other things that I have heard is that there were some lost applications, up to 2,000 lost volunteer applications. I know that there has been a problem with getting people registered to volunteer as quickly as they are needed. With the test events coming up this summer, there is going to be a lot of volunteers needed.
I wonder if the minister is aware that that has occurred, that there were problems, I understand--or I have been told that there was a problem with computers that resulted in a number of applications being lost, and on the same vein, if the minister could tell me how close they are getting to this 15,000 volunteer number.
Mr. Stefanson: The issue of the lost applications, I will pursue and get back to the member. In terms of volunteers, as we mentioned, the estimated number is 15,000; signed up as of May, we are 11,716; so, certainly, at this stage, an excellent response in terms of the sign up of volunteers.
Ms. Cerilli: I guess it is understandable with an event as big as this that there are going to be some mistakes made, but there have been a few other mistakes that have been kind of embarrassing and probably kind of costly. Those are the French language errors on the signs, and now we have just heard about the bad stairs at the U of M facility. I guess just some explanation of those problems, how they have been rectified, particularly in the case of the French language signs. I mean, I do not know how much one of those signs costs, and I am not sure if it was repaired as quickly as the promise was made that it would be--but some explanation of what happened in both of those cases.
An Honourable Member: Let us take that question as notice.
Mr. Stefanson: Well, that was probably a good suggestion, Mr. Chairman. In terms of how they occurred, I will have to find out from the Pan Am Games. I am told that steps are being taken to address both of those issues.
Mr. Chairperson: The time being six o'clock, committee rise.