4th-36th Vol. 56-Oral Questions

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members, firstly, to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today His Excellency Jim Gerard, New Zealand High Commissioner to Canada.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Also, seated in the public gallery, we have this afternoon sixty-five Grade 5 students from Constable Edward Finney School under the direction of Mrs. Diane Minaker. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

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Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Last week we asked a number of questions about the caseloads dealing with children in our communities, the Child and Family Services department. The government has talked repeatedly about a strategic planning process that they are in. We have a copy now of a document dealing with the strategic planning process, prepared this year, that talks about the context of caseloads within the cutbacks made by this government on health, education and social assistance and, further, within the context of cutbacks dealing with their very own department, the Department of Family Services.

The document also confirms that the caseloads are above the national standards and above the standards of the Child Welfare League of America. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services or the Premier: does he feel it is healthy for children to have an average caseload of 38 clients per worker, way above the standard for the North American standard for child and family services?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question because it does provide me with the opportunity to indicate that right across the country there are issues around child protection that governments of all political stripes are attempting to address. It is no easy issue, and there are no easy quick-fix answers in the area of child protection or services to children and families in need. I can indicate to you that we have increased funding year after year in the area, and we are still seeing unacceptably high numbers of children in care in the province of Manitoba, higher numbers than many other provinces across the country, which is of significant concern to our government. We are putting the resources in, and I know that the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency is attempting to deal with the issue of caseloads and the issues around protection of children.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The document, which I will table, also confirms that we have the highest number of children in care. Madam Speaker, of course we already know that we are the child poverty centre of Canada, regrettably. The document also confirms that the supply of foster homes is not meeting the ever-increasing volume in needs of children. The Premier (Mr. Filmon), in 1993, when he cut back on the money and resources for foster children and foster parents, said that foster parents could be replaced. I would like to ask this Premier what impact his cutbacks have been on foster rates in Manitoba? What impact has there been on lack of care on the one hand and higher costs through short-term stays in hotels and other resources on the other hand?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I do know that Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency has, over the recent months, been recruiting foster parents. I know that the number of children who were in hotels last year, which was unacceptably high, has been significantly decreased as a result of that foster parent recruitment that the Winnipeg agency has undertaken. But I want to indicate that all of the initiatives we have implemented, many that have been announced and some soon to be announced in the area of early intervention, are all initiatives that are looking towards decreasing the number of children that need to come into care, because we are working with parents and children at a very early age to try to ensure that those children are being parented, and there will be less need down the road for Child and Family Services and that system.

As I said in my first answer, there is no easy, quick-fix answer to the issues, but we are working really aggressively to try to ensure that children get off to a healthy start to life.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, we have heard that every year, as the government cuts and cuts and cuts, as it bombs the bridges of opportunity for children, we hear the same recorded announcement from this insensitive government year after year after year.

Madam Speaker, the Mason Report states that hotels are commonly used but they are an expensive solution. They also go on to say the number of hotel rooms has doubled over the '96-97 year in '97-98. They said that part of the reason is the availability of the short-term hotel rooms and the insufficient numbers of foster homes in Manitoba. When is this Premier (Mr. Filmon) going to take responsibility for cutting back the investments in foster homes and creating a higher cost, more used hotel room solution for our children? When is he going to close down the hotel rooms for our kids and get them back in foster homes where they belong?

Mrs. Mitchelson: I indicated in my previous answer, and I will repeat again for the Leader of the Opposition, that the issue around placement in hotels has been addressed by Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency. Madam Speaker, they have had a comprehensive recruitment plan for foster parents and they have seen success in that recruitment. The numbers of children in hotels today are significantly down from the numbers that my honourable friend was quoting in his question. He says it is their document--yes, but since that document was produced there have been significant changes in the number of children that are in hotels. I have indicated many times, and I want to tell the Leader of the Opposition that $20 million--over $20 million in increases to services for children and families in this year's budget is not a cut.

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Mr. Doer: And their own strategic document says it is going into the higher cost placements and short-term placement facilities. Your own document confirms those penny-wise and pound-foolish kinds of strategies of your department when the Premier cut foster parent care and kids ended up in hotels, double the number from one year over the previous year, Madam Speaker, and this is in their own strategic planning document.

Madam Speaker, in 1994, the government cut the extended care rate for foster children. We, at that time, warned about the impact that would have on aboriginal children, one-half of whom were going to be aboriginal families and children. Today again we see a report that says most of the children are now being placed in facilities and programs, the aboriginal children, which are culturally inappropriate foster homes. Again, will the government review the bad decision this Premier made for the extended family foster home program and reinstate programs that make cultural and long-term sense for our children in care?

Mrs. Mitchelson: One of the issues that is of great concern to our government is the number of aboriginal children that require support from our Child and Family Services, and yet the lack of aboriginal people that are involved in the solutions, Madam Speaker--and that is one of the reasons that we have established a working committee in my department with significant aboriginal representation to try to determine what the answers are. We cannot, in isolation of the aboriginal community, make decisions on what kinds of services and supports need to be available, and we are working right now with the aboriginal community to try to find those solutions.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, this Minister of Family Services and this insensitive government will not listen to the Children's Advocate. They will not listen to the front-line workers. They will not listen to a supervisor who says at an inquest that he knew that workloads were too high because a baby died. Will they now listen to the management of Winnipeg Child and Family Services, who are saying that each worker has an average of 38 cases, meaning less than an hour per week per family, and will she now do something about the workload issue and at least institute a review, given that on Thursday, one of the people at the inquest said it is impossible for workers to visit homes as much as they would like because of managing daily crises? Will this minister act now?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does provide me with the opportunity to indicate that we have listened to many Manitobans, many Manitobans within our communities, Madam Speaker, that are saying that early intervention and supports for children are crucial so that, in fact, children will not need the services of our Child and Family Services agency. That is exactly why we have put over $20 million more in our budget this year to announce early intervention programs like BabyFirst, that has been announced already, like Earlystart, like our fetal alcohol syndrome strategy, like the issues that we announced around dealing with adolescent pregnancy. Those are all concrete examples of how this government is concerned about ensuring that children and families get off to a healthy start to life.

Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, will this Minister of Family Services, who has been told over and over again by people reviewing the Child and Family Services system that it is their government's cuts to education, their government's cuts to health care, and the cuts to foster care rates that are causing the highest level of children being in temporary placements, a huge jump and use of short-term placements--will this minister do something to restore the foster care rates, to get children out of hotels and four-bed units and into family homes?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, that is exactly why we are looking at ways to try to ensure that families are healthier up front, so they do not need the services of Child and Family Services, so the caseloads will be significantly less, all of the programs that we have put in place, programs that are working with new parents to try to ensure that baby and mom are healthy and that families are healthy and they understand the issues around parenting so they will not need support from the Child and Family Services system.

That is why we have partnered with the daycare community and the Earlystart program that works with parents and children and puts mentors right in the homes of families to keep families together to make those families healthier, so they will not need the services from Winnipeg Child and Family Services. I have many initiatives that I can talk about in detail in my next answer.

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Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services, who has been part of this government for 10 long years and who has been compounding these problems and has had 10 years to correct them, will she acknowledge that these documents say that the long-term impact of growing days in care has been a strain on foster home resources and do something to increase the number of foster homes so that we can get children out of short-term placements, which are growing, the number of days in care is growing, the workload is growing on the individual workers? Will this minister and her government, after 10 years, finally do something about this problem?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I will say again that these are not issues that any government takes lightly. These are issues that all governments right across the country--because I know when I go to meetings of ministers of social services that the issues are the same right across the country--and obviously, the way that we have been doing business for years and years and years in the area of the child and family services system is not working, despite the fact that we are pouring more money into the system year after year after year. The programs that we have announced around early intervention--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The programs that we have introduced this year, with an additional over $20 million for children and families, are initiatives that are working with families very early on to try to ensure that baby and parents get off to a healthy start to life so they will not need the kinds of services that have had to be provided. I make no apologies for putting the money in at the front where it is needed.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, the Winnipeg Child and Family Services strategic planning document makes the point, and I quote: although Manitoba has one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates, services on behalf of expectant parents have steadily decreased.

Of course, Madam Speaker, given Manitoba's unconscionable and unworkable caseloads, it could not be otherwise. Social workers are overburdened and innocent children are victimized. I would like to ask the minister, in light of three recent baby deaths, seven since 1990 and countless injuries, all victims of baby shaking, when she will act to reduce caseloads allowing workers to provide teenage parents and other potentially volatile parents with supports and services. The real question is when will she act to--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question because I do want to indicate to all Manitobans that the issue of the high numbers of adolescent pregnancies in Manitoba is unacceptable. We have to deal with the whole issue of trying to prevent adolescent pregnancy before it becomes an issue and before we need the kinds of supports that are needed. That is exactly why we have purchased more dolls to work within the school system and within the health system, to have young people understand the issues surrounding what is involved when you become a parent, especially as a young person without the kinds of supports that really are needed to ensure that children get off to a healthy start to life.

So, Madam Speaker, we are trying to ensure, by working with youth and with aboriginal youth, the announcement that maybe my honourable friend should have been at, to hear first-hand what youth in our community were saying and that is, how do we try to ensure that prevention is the first step in trying to ensure that families--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I want to ask the minister when she will implement Chief Medical Examiner Peter Markestyn's recommendation and provide teenage parents and all needy parents with parental supports and education.

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Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): That is exactly what we are doing with the announcement of BabyFirst, where we are working with prenatal women and adolescents specifically to ensure that they are in contact with the public health system. Through that system, there will be mentors that will be working on an individual basis with young parents and their children to ensure that those children get off to a healthy start to life because their parents have good parenting skills. That is one of the announcements and that is a significant investment that we have just announced. But again, I want to repeat for Manitobans, what our government is looking at is trying to ensure that young girls are not committed to a life of poverty on welfare because they become pregnant. We are trying to ensure that they understand the implications, what it means to them, that it is a lifelong commitment, and trying to ensure that we can prevent adolescent pregnancy.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I would like to ask the minister about young boys. Since adolescent males are very frequently the perpetrators of violence against children, I would like to ask the minister what programs she has created and are directed at adolescent males.

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): That is a very good question, and I thank my honourable friend for that question because the Baby Think It Over Program, where dolls go with young people into their homes for a period of time, is for both males and females. I do know that the aboriginal youth that we are working with are both males and females because young people recognize and realize that there is responsibility on behalf of both sexes. So we are working with them to ensure that we come up with the solutions that deal with both males and females in Manitoba.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, according to the CRTC, this government gave away Manitoba Telephone System at far below its market value. According to MTS's own internal reports, the government had earlier forced MTS to give away its cable business for a fraction of its strategic value to MTS. It forced MTS against its will to enter into sweetheart contracts with Faneuil, after which Michael Bessey got his own sweetheart contract. Now it has given the Finance minister's brother-in-law and other managers 24 percent of Linnet Graphics for half the government's own share of Linnet's retained earnings. Will the government tell us: why should Manitobans believe the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism when he says the company, after $30-million worth of forced contracts from this government, is worth only $1.6 million?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I do not know what the member for Crescentwood is trying to do by putting so much misinformation on the record. It does nothing to bring out the fact that this province under this government has performed another good deal for the people of Manitoba on the sale of Linnet. I can tell you--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, I take strong objection to the reference made to anyone's brother-in-law as it relates to this particular deal or any other. This sale was carried out under the Manitoba Development Corporation which held the share. We have some 60 people working in the province who were not working prior to in this business. It was sold for $432,000, a number which in fact was given to us by a third-party appraisal which was totally independent.

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Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister explain why, when the company said it would create over 500 jobs, there are only 60 jobs? The company was given $200,000. He did not get that back. Will he explain why Mercer and company thinks this company is only worth $1.6 million, no value on the proprietary software, no value on the contracts since 1997, no value for any of the world-breaking supposed value of Linnet Graphics? Will he table the Mercer document?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I will answer the last question first as it deals with whether or not we will table the appraisal that was done or the evaluation done by William Mercer. We were but one party involved in the hiring of that company to in fact do an appraisal. So we will check with the other two individuals, the other two companies. We do not have a difficulty with that, but we will have to check with them to make sure that there is not any difficulty in doing so, unlike ManOil where the people of Manitoba lost $16 million under the guidance of those people who are so intelligent, $29 million to Saudi Arabia. I think this is a good deal because we in fact made money and have some 60 people working in the province of Manitoba that were not here prior to it.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister explain to the House why the public interest of Manitoba will not be served by the tabling of a report which claims to show that the value of our shares in that company are only worth $232,000, after millions of contracts from this government, after the company has supposedly got a worldwide reputation? Our 24 percent stake is only worth $232,000. Table the assessment.

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, he can huff and puff and blow all he likes. We sold the company for $432,000. [interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order.

Mr. Downey: Yes, if you discount the $200,000 loan that was given to them if certain conditions were met. So the company was sold for $432,000, well within the value which was put in place by a third party. He should ask them how they came up with the value of the company. As far as tabling is concerned, I said there are two other parties of which we will be requesting their approval to do so, and if they in fact agree, we have no difficulty in tabling that document.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, when the Premier was the Leader of the official opposition a number of years back, one of the biggest criticisms that he levelled at the government was the politicization of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.

Madam Speaker, one can almost take a crystal ball and predict next year that there will be a zero percent increase. Why? Because next year happens to be that election cycle, and you can see the graph going up and down as we get closer to an election.

My question to the Premier: in keeping with his criticism of MPI back in the good old days of official opposition, will the Premier today acknowledge that there is no need to have a Tory MLA sitting on the MPI board?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, one of the things that the member for Inkster neglects to do is to acknowledge that, since we have taken office, we have an opportunity for a public review of the rate-setting process, and that is through the Public Utilities Board that ultimately make the final decision. So, although he can accuse this government of setting the rates, the fact is that the corporation makes proposals to the Public Utilities Board, and those proposals over the years since we made the Public Utilities Board responsible have been changed. Last year, as an example, but virtually every year the PUB does not give MPI what it asks for. So to suggest that somehow we have ultimate control is absolutely false.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, the Premier is being very selective. I would ask the Premier to recognize in '95, I believe it was when we had an election, it was zero percent; in '96, we had an increase of 4.1 percent; '97, 2.5 percent. There was an increase last year. We are getting closer to the election--acknowledge, for the Premier to acknowledge that in fact this government does play somewhat of a role in the setting of the rates in the sense that the government or the board has to decide whether or not to apply for an increase. They have to determine whether they are going to apply to build up on the reserves. Will the Premier--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, in fact, the PUB has disagreed with the proposal of the corporation about how much should be allocated towards the building up of reserves. On several occasions they have said, no, there is no big rush, and they in fact turned down the board's request for increases in fees, in rates to build up the reserves.

So there is a series of different measures by which the rates are set. In the past, the rates were set solely by the New Democratic government at their cabinet table. That has not taken place since we have been in office, and indeed it has been done for the protection of the customers, Madam Speaker, as well as in the best interests of the people of Manitoba. We believe that the member for Inkster just simply does not understand the process.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I understand the process. Taxpayers are out $2 million.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member, with a final supplementary question.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, we have rules for Question Period and for questions and answers. Madam Speaker uses her discretion and gives certain latitude, but consistently when certain members are not given the same latitude as other members, it becomes almost a matter of privilege, that certain members are allowed to have extra preambles. Certain members--[interjection] Yes.

So, Madam Speaker, I would ask your discretion and be consistent with all members about your latitude in Question Period.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Maples does not have a point of order. All members know that supplementary questions require no preamble or postamble.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Inkster, to pose his question now.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is: today we know that there is going to be an additional $2 million that someone is going to have to pay for. Can the government indicate where that money is going to have to come from, or is there going to be an appeal, or what is the status with the $2-million successful lawsuit that has been launched?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, it is the distinct possibility that there could be an appeal, and for that reason I would not propose to go into the details of the case about which the honourable member is asking.

Claims like this are covered under a general liability policy underwritten by the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. That policy was for the period August 1, 1984, to September 1, 1987. This policy provides coverage for defamation of character claims, and the coverage for elected officials and MLAs is subject to a $10,000 deductible which is payable by the government itself. Beyond that deductible, the award would have to be paid by the Manitoba Public Insurance, and we would await any outcome of any decision respecting an appeal or the results of that appeal before wanting to comment further.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, two-year-old Katrina Rae Guimond died in a tragic fire at her Pine Falls daycare in August 1996, and after a one-year investigation, I understand that a party was charged with manslaughter, criminal negligence and arson and was then released on bail.

My question to the Minister of Justice: on Thursday, the minister promoted in this House that one of the objective tests of the performance of his Prosecutions branch is the time it takes for a matter to come to trial, and his department has one of the best records in Canada, he said. Would he say this to the family of Katrina Rae?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I do not propose to comment on any specific case, but to use a particular family for a political purpose I think is very inappropriate. I know my department works very hard in respect of its prosecutions. Certain things occur, but I know that they are as interested as I am in ensuring that matters move as quickly as they can.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister explain to the family and mother of Katrina Rae, who is trying to get closure, and by the way, asked that this matter be raised, why in her case his department has so far consented to 16 remands in one year?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, if the family does want to speak to my department and officials in my department, they can certainly share what information they can share. I understand that at times certain information cannot be shared, but I know that the members in my department are more than willing to share what information they can. I certainly would encourage the family to contact members in my department, or indeed members in my department, if the member for St. Johns wishes, can contact that family directly.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would this minister, who should know that the family has contacted members of his department and has been repeatedly told that the preliminary inquiry would be set down at the next date, can he possibly explain why the matter has not even been set down for a preliminary inquiry, and it is now two years after this tragedy?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as I have indicated, the record of our department in respect of moving matters to trial quickly and appropriately is unparalleled in Canada. We pride ourselves in respect of moving matters very quickly. There may well be issues that are relevant to why there were certain remands granted in this case. I think that the family is entitled to any explanation that we can possibly give them, and so I would certainly encourage that course of action.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Over six months ago I wrote to the Minister of Health regarding the loss of pediatric neurological services at the Health Sciences Centre, and still today, Madam Speaker, we have received no response from the minister in this regard. Dr. Pillay, the only remaining epileptologist with pediatric neurological skills practising in Manitoba, is now leaving for the city of Calgary, leaving Manitoba without those services.

I want to ask the Minister of Health--since he indicated in Estimates for his department he did not know how many neurologists were in Manitoba--how he expects the remaining neurological specialists in the province to take over the workload of Dr. Pillay, since the minister did not even know how many neurologists were practising in the province of Manitoba.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member is wrong. We have had a great discussion over this issue in Estimates. I would not want it to be left on the record that the matter has gone unattended by me. In fact, we had quite a great deal of discussion. We also shared with the member information with respect to the specific individual who was brought to our attention, because we were not the employer of that individual; that person had a relationship with the Health Sciences Centre. There were issues involved in the departure that were discussed, I think, respecting the privacy of that individual.

As we have indicated, the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, as it takes over a greater and greater role in the system, ensuring that we recruit the right number of specialists to fill need is part of their mandate which they are undertaking. So the member should not let it go on the record that his matter has not had an answer or been dealt with or is being dealt with because that would not be accurate.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Well, I want to ask the Minister of Health--since he did not know in Estimates--what are the waiting lists for people in Manitoba, and particularly children, suffering with epilepsy who require neurological services, what are the waiting lists for the remaining neurologists in the province of Manitoba, Madam Speaker, since this minister did not know how many neurologists were practising and only relied on the Manitoba Medical Association to provide that information from an outdated list?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, neurologists are not the only people who work with individuals with epilepsy. So to leave the impression, as we discussed in Estimates, that that is the only resource available would not, as I remember it, be accurate. As well, each individual physician maintains their own waiting list, dependent on the number of people who want to see them and their success, et cetera. So we do not have access to that particular number with each individual who is practising in that particular field.

The member does know that. It was discussed in Estimates.

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Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, can the minister explain how he expects the Health Sciences Centre to keep its teaching accreditation in pediatric neurology if the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons investigates the hospital? Since Dr. Pillay is the only remaining person in the province with those skills, how will that hospital keep its accreditation now that Dr. Pillay has gone to Calgary? How does he expect that facility to remain a teaching facility?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, with respect to the individual that the member keeps referencing, the member is aware of a number of circumstances around his departure that we both agreed we would not discuss in a public forum--and he is aware of that--to respect the privacy of that individual and other individuals as well.

Madam Speaker, the Health Sciences Centre, as part of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, has a responsibility to ensure that in programs it offers that it recruits specialists to do the work that needs to be done. There is a host of areas, as physicians and specialists move across this country from place to place--some leave, some come, depending upon opportunities that they see for themselves individually--and as they depart, those in authority in those specific institutions begin a process to recruit. We have worked from time to time with the Health Sciences Centre, with the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, now under the new regime, to assist in their recruitment efforts, whether it be in this area or oncology or others, and we will continue to do so.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Government Services and concerns the $150-million computer contract between the government and SHL. The government has confirmed that the price of the computer hardware accounted for only 15 percent of the point system used in the selection of the successful hardware bidders. Bidders have claimed that the 25 percent weighting given to product quality was not defined.

Could the minister release the definition of product quality and presence which made up 25 percent of this point system?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, in the process of asking for a request for a proposal, in many cases, or in all cases, there is a committee struck amongst the many departments that are involved in that process. Their role is to place before the--in terms of the RFP and work with the company doing it--is to place all these areas in terms of what they are looking for in terms of the product.

I would remind the member across the way that, with respect to this particular contract for the computers, our initial contract, this government was with Systemhouse. It is Systemhouse's responsibility--it was their responsibility to supply the hardware, because they have to have certain performance standards with the provincial government. Therefore, it is in their purview to put the RFP out for the computers, and I am advised in this particular case that this is what they had done.

Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.