Madam Speaker: The hour being 5 p.m., time for private members' hour.
Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger),
"WHEREAS the people of Manitoba have identified health care as a public priority; and
"WHEREAS the Government of Manitoba spends more than one third of the provincial balanced budget on health care--one of only two provinces to devote as much to health care; and
"WHEREAS Manitobans deserve and have come to expect quality health care services in our province; and
"WHEREAS with the reduction of federal funding and advances in medical technology there is an escalating need to re-position the health care system to serve both present and future needs of Manitobans.
"THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this Assembly support the Provincial Government's continuing efforts to preserve and protect health care while spending taxpayers' money wisely."
Motion presented.
Mr. McAlpine: Madam Speaker, I do want to put a few comments on the record with regard to our resolution that has been put forward today. Health care is a very important aspect of our society today, and it is one that has to be addressed very seriously.
You know, I joined these ranks in 1990 and have seen three Health ministers who have done a very commendable job, very dedicated ministers. Each one of them recognized that this was a very important issue in terms of what this government had to address, not only in putting money into the health care funding, but also to try to do something that was going to improve the lifestyles of all Manitobans and also to be leaders in the health care aspect of all people across this country and be a model for around the world.
Madam Speaker, my concern when I came in here was that--and I used to talk to the Minister of Health on several occasions about this very particular issue. My contention was that none of these ministers were Ministers of Health, they were ministers of disease in terms of treating disease. That is really the approach that we have taken. Certainly, we could not blame Health ministers for that, because I think that what we have been doing up until now is that we have been holding certain people and certain professions as the supreme authority and knowledge when it comes to health care.
What happens, Madam Speaker, is that these people, well-intentioned people, have been trained a certain way and studied many years and put a lot of effort and invested a lot of money into doing this, but they have not been taught how to create health, and that really has concerned me from the first time that I set foot in this Chamber, because, as a government, we have increased our health care budget year after year after year. We recognized, and this government and the Health ministers under their direction recognized this as well, that we cannot continue just to put more money into the health care budget because it will be spent, not necessarily frivolously but it will not be in the best interests of the patient, which I think is one of the things that we have to address as members of this Legislature in terms of addressing the serious issues that we have as far as serving the health care patients and the health care needs of this province.
Madam Speaker, as early as this year with our budget, a province with just over a million population, this government spends $1.93 billion allocated to health care, and that represents $1,700 for every man, woman and child in this province. Almost 35 percent of the budget is spent on health care. Since we came into government, we have spent an additional $600 million on health care, just to support the argument that I am offering with regard to putting more money in and continuing to put more money into this. That is what we are losing on.
We are not creating the health that should go along with that, and that is the sad part of it, Madam Speaker. That $600 million represents 45 percent more, and when you consider that the federal government has reduced their spending on health care by 35 percent, those are significant dollars. We talk about, you know, the significant dollars from last year, and to show you where our heart is as far as health care and the people of Manitoba, there is an additional $100 million that went into health care in the interests of making things better.
Madam Speaker, I come back to what I said initially. We are not winning on that. We are not going to win as a society in fighting the disease, because the disease is going to win. My position is, as a member who has considerable interest and spent some 15 years with that aspect in dealing with treating health, not only for myself but for my family, I have learned a considerable amount when it comes to creating health which I did not know 20 years ago.
I know that today I am in better health and in better condition than I was 20 years ago only because of the fact that I have an understanding of how to create health. Madam Speaker, it is not a matter of putting more money in, as the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) would have me want to believe. The honourable member for St. James has a lot to say, but she is not saying a lot that makes a lot of sense. From the aspect of creating health, I think those are the important issues that I think that we as members should be looking at and not just putting money into this.
Madam Speaker, another thing that I wanted to address was, today, when the honourable minister made the announcement along with the Winnipeg Health Authority, I participated and attended both of those functions, and it involved the CEOs and the chairpeople of the boards of all the hospitals throughout Winnipeg. These are people who have a vested interest in the health care within the city of Winnipeg. After this presentation was made, with the exception of a few questions in terms of what is going to happen in this situation and that situation and just looking at this from their perspective, I had a very strong feeling that they were very satisfied with what the minister and the Winnipeg Health Authority had to say and what they are recommending, because they too recognize that we cannot function the way we did as an administrative body throughout the city of Winnipeg with the USSC and those aspects to deal with this in an individual way.
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Years ago, before this minister came along and the Winnipeg Health Authority, we had seven hospitals that were vying for the health care dollars. There were competitions. I do not think when you have got a competition that is taking place that it is in the best interests of the patient, and this minister and this government recognized that. The CEOs and the chairpeople recognized that, too, because they are buying into this. What we are going to do, Madam Speaker, as a government is that we are going to create, in the smaller sense, centres of excellence. We have a population in this city of some 600,000 people, and I daresay that we have got basically seven hospitals serving 600,000 people. That is less than 100,000 for one hospital, and these hospitals are significant capital expenditures year after year.
After this aspect of the presentation to the boards and the CEOs, we had a meeting with a press conference, and it was introduced to the media. I was there, the official opposition critic was there. I did not hear what he had to say, but, I could tell as I was leaving, he was in a bit of an interview that it was not really kind. He was taking an approach that was not indicative of what was intended here as far as the real issues in terms of what we are dealing with and trying to make things better for the patient so that the dollars that we are spending day after day through these administrations can filter through to the patient. That is the bottom line.
It was interesting to listen to the media and listen to the Winnipeg Health Authority again make their presentation because the CEO, Mr. Webster, of the Winnipeg Health Authority and his board have done a tremendous job in terms of what their vision as far as serving the health care patients of this province, well, at least this city. I think that what he did was he asked the people who had input into this whole process.
These are the people who are doctors, they are nurses and they are health care providers. He asked them to stand up because all of these people--and maybe they were not all there, but there was representation there, Madam Speaker, that really had an impact on what I saw. Some 30 to 35 people stood up and took responsibility, and had input in terms of the way this plan was going to work. I think that is really important to come to this with the information. These people are on the front lines. They are the people that deal with this every day. They are the professionals in the health care industry. Although we all have our own visions and views as far as health care is concerned, we can by no means consider ourselves professionals in terms of what we are doing.
Madam Speaker, I think this resolution, although it is not specific in terms of what I am addressing here, there is a message here that all members of the this Legislature should support. They should support it with enthusiasm, dedication and commitment. It is a commitment not only to their constituents, but to all people in Manitoba because that is what we are talking about. So I would ask all members to support this resolution, take the high road in terms of serving Manitobans, and let us work together on this because throwing money into this, as the honourable members across the way have demonstrated to me, is not going to work.
So, Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for the opportunity to place this resolution on the floor today, and ask for the support of all honourable members. Thank you.
Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I found the remarks of the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) rather curious. He has rather a pessimistic view, I think, of health care. I think he told us that disease was going to win, and I do not share his sense that disease is going to win. I am not sure what disease is going to win, but anyway he seemed to be very concerned with this, and I found it curious. It is not something that I really support.
I notice that the resolution talks about continuing efforts to preserve and protect health care. It would seem to me if the current efforts to preserve and protect continue, we are in dire straits indeed, so I certainly could not support that part of the resolution. The majority of Manitobans, I think, agree with me, judging from the phone calls that come to my office, the phone calls that came to the 1-800 line we had set up, and the phone calls that come to my colleagues on this side of the House. So "preserve and protect," I do not think so.
I also found this resolution to say--
Mr. McAlpine: Madam Speaker, I think it is expected that, when honourable members are referencing any comments that they are making, they do so with the greatest accuracy. The honourable member has suggested that there are many phone calls. I think that maybe the honourable member would like to make a suggestion in terms of actually how many calls she has had because she seems to--I think that is misleading, and that you should call her to order, and maybe suggest that she be given the opportunity to tell how many calls she actually has received.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Sturgeon Creek did not have a point of order.
Ms. McGifford: Well, I will not speak on the same point of order, but I would like to point out to the member opposite that people probably do not phone him or his colleagues because they are doing such a poor job. Most of the calls come to this side of the Legislature, so if the member opposite is not getting calls, I think there is quite a logical explanation.
But to proceed, I notice that in the Order Paper this resolution was described as Where We Are, Where We Are Going, and one of my colleague's remarks that it would make sense to us if there were questions marks after each of those statements, because we are not sure where we are with this minister as regards the health care, and we are not sure where we are going, so I admire the courage and the temerity of the member opposite for even putting forward this resolution.
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Now, where are we? Quite clearly, we are in a mess; we are in trouble. If anyone wants corroboration on this, ask people living with hepatitis C in this province, ask people who are not getting compensation, ask people who have been able to take advantage of the breast care clinic at the Misericordia Hospital and no longer will be able to do that.
An Honourable Member: Ask those going down to Grafton to get a test done.
Ms. McGifford: Exactly. As to where we are going? Who knows? As far as we have been able to discern, as far as we heard the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) describe in this House, there are not any plans for where we are going. We know that Manitobans are going to Grafton, North Dakota; we know they are going to the Mayo Clinic; we know some are going to Alberta from time to time; and some are going, as the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) tells me--I should not say going--some are in the hallways of Manitoba hospitals--enormous numbers are in the hallways of Manitoba hospitals.
Madam Speaker, during Question Period today, I think some very interesting statistics emerged, and I would just like to bring them to the attention of members opposite. We learned that, since the 1990s, 1,500 hospital beds have closed. That is a lot of hospital beds, but it is all right because today the Minister of Health announced that he is going to open 28 new ones. It will not really put a dent in the thousands that have closed.
We have also heard today that, I believe it was, 1,500 health care workers had been laid off, including 1,000 nurses. I think it was in 1993 when the health care in the province was in such a shambles that the member opposite, the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) was called in to take over that ministry. Unfortunately, he got himself into a bit of hot water over emergency wards and one thing and another, and so we have another new Health minister, kind of the same rotation that we see taking place in Education, the revolving door Health minister syndrome in the Province of Manitoba.
Madam Speaker, today we heard that there are 8,000 Manitobans waiting for ultrasound, that this is the highest waiting list in all of Canada. We learned today that there were 4,500 Manitobans waiting for a CAT scan. Now, despite these statistics, we have a minister who takes no responsibility. He today blamed this situation on the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. This, of course, was absolutely predictable. When we discussed the bill last year that created hospital authorities, we predicted again and again that what the minister would do would be to pass the buck; and, when the health care system was in a state of chaos, he would simply blame these hospital authorities or regional authorities, which is what he did today.
Now, I understand that at the press conference where the Winnipeg Hospital Authority announced its priorities, the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) made sure he was on the platform and got his face on the news for tonight, but, yet, when it comes to accepting responsibility, it is somebody else's problem. So, as I said, the minister said today that he was not responsible. He also said today, and I thought this was interesting, that he would not trust the member for Osborne to look after the breast care centre in Misericordia Hospital, and I would like to tell the minister, in return, that we do not trust the member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) with our health care system.
The statistics that I quoted simply are just glaring testimony to the fact that this is a minister who is not really doing his job. The worst waiting lists in Canada, people lining our hospital hallways, this is not our idea of quality health care--hiring private nurses, getting less care, a terrible situation.
Let us just take a look at some of the other losses since the early '90s, some of the other drastic changes in health care, Madam Speaker. Think of the changes in Pharmacare. Drug after drug has either been dropped or is not part of the formulary. This is particularly a hardship for the chronically ill, for those who are in acute pain, for the dying. It is particularly a problem for the elderly who simply cannot afford the medications that they need. It is a terrible situation--diabetics, as I said, particularly stressful for the chronically ill.
One of the other innovations was the $50 charge for eye care applying, I believe, to those between 18 and 65. This, of course, means not only a hardship for families. The working poor, I think, will particularly suffer here, and it means, I think, Madam Speaker, it is bad news for women because mothers will forgo the care and treatment they need in order to leave the $50 in the family coffers so that this money can be used to buy their children clothing, food, school supplies, whatever. So free eye examinations for all Manitobans was an excellent idea, and I am very distressed to see that that has been changed.
Of course, some of the other problems in our health care are long waiting lists for surgery, major delays for all kinds of surgery, including life-threatening surgery. Earlier this year I delivered a member's statement concerning a woman who had cervical cancer. The wait went on and on and on, and eventually this woman died before she was able to have the surgery that she so desperately needed.
Now, Madam Speaker, I know that I do not have too much time left, but I did want to turn my attention briefly to Misericordia Hospital, because it is the Misericordia Hospital which is--for a while it will be the Misericordia Hospital--but it is this hospital that has been decimated by the announcements today. The Misericordia Hospital recently put out a pamphlet. I know the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) will be very pleased to know or not so pleased to know that this particular pamphlet has engendered many, many calls to my constituency office. If he wants a head count, I can supply it to him at a later date.
One of the sections in this pamphlet is titled What We Will Lose, and what we will lose includes the province's only comprehensive breast cancer care program, that program gone; second, Manitoba's busiest plastic surgery department, which is home to seven out of 12 Manitoba plastic surgeons; third, a world-renowned skin diseases research unit. [interjection] Well, the member for River Heights is speaking about Misericordia Hospital. I do not think his constituents would be very pleased to know his position on the closure of all these very valued services in the Misericordia Hospital. I think some of his constituents use that hospital on a very regular basis.
But anyway, to continue, Madam Speaker, what else will we lose? A centrally located acute care facility for Winnipeg, leaving the city centre unserviced.
Fifthly, emergency patients will be forced to go to other hospitals, which are already overloaded. In other words, the emergency room.
Last, 224 acute care beds will be gone from an already overcrowded system. We did note earlier that the minister is putting 28 beds back into the system, and here he is taking out another 225.
Madam Speaker, in closing, I do want to say once more that I cannot support the "efforts to preserve and protect health care" because I think the efforts to preserve and protect health care have been absolutely disastrous and have only harmed health care in this province. With that, I will allow one of my other colleagues to address the resolution.
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Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, I guess I am somewhat dismayed, but I thought the members opposite would fully support this resolution. I know the point that we want to make is the most efficient use of existing resources while maintaining our high quality of care makes good sense to me. So I would think that this would be the best way to go in supporting this resolution--
An Honourable Member: Like having people in the hallways. They like it out there, do they not?
Mr. Dyck: Yes, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) was talking about people in the hallways. I am pleased that he is giving me this opportunity to speak on that issue, because absolutely right, when I was out there and I was visiting some people there--in fact, it was my father-in-law who had had his hip replaced--the staff was just very courteous to them. [interjection] Oh, I have to answer that question later; I want to finish first on this issue.
Certainly, the people that I talked to were in the halls because they chose to be there. They want to have a different view. After all, the four square corners in the room become a little monotonous after a while, and so the staff was very accommodating and helped them to move out into the hallways. I think the member for Concordia does not get around enough, that he knows what is taking place. So I do not think he is in touch with what is happening out in his own community.
Madam Speaker, I would like to talk about some of the good things that are happening in the Pembina constituency. I know I have an opportunity to do this on a daily basis, but somehow never run out of all the good things that are taking place out there. Today I would like to mention just a few of them.
This coming Sunday, in fact, we are having another ribbon-cutting. It is taking place at the Eden Health Care facilities. They have just completed a renovation. This is in Winkler, yes, the Eden Health Care facilities. [interjection] The Garden of Eden, as one member has very appropriately said. Certainly, it is a very, very lovely facility. They have remodelled it; they have refitted it. So we are going to be doing the official opening on Sunday.
Also, Madam Speaker, because the use that is out there for the facility, the community, the Eden Health Care facilities have expanded. They have, in fact, opened up a brand-new office area. This will be something where they can accommodate more of the staff who are looking after the needs of the community.
Eden Health Care facilities, the health unit, service a wide area. There are people who come from across the southern part of Manitoba and come to the facility and are helped there. In fact, good friends of ours, their daughter came out from the Boissevain area and received care. Certainly, they were very appreciative of the work that the facility is doing.
So that is one of the areas that I would like to talk about. Another one is Boundary Trails. The member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) asked me about where we were at with our new facility, Boundary Trails. We expect that we will be starting to put concrete in the ground in November and--[interjection] Madam Speaker, I could not hear myself talking, so I needed to talk and stop momentarily. Boundary Trails we expect we will be doing the sod turning in the very latest in November. So this facility is going to be a 94-bed hospital. It is going to be a regional hospital. What is taking place is that we are closing down two hospitals, the one in Morden and the one in Winkler, and we are going to have one regional hospital. Again, this is a facility that serves a wide area. It is not only those two communities, but we have people coming from further west, and, of course, north and east are serviced there as well.
It is going to be exciting to see something new. I guess the members opposite are very afraid of change. They want everything to stay the way it is. At least that is the impression that I was getting from the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford). You know, keep everything the way it is and then all will be well. Well, I would suggest to you that in southern Manitoba we are open to change. Certainly the change needs to be monitored, it needs to be regulated, and that, in fact, is taking place. So we are looking forward to what this new facility is going to be able to offer to the community. We hope that within the near future we will be building and, of course, as quickly as possible that we will be able to open that facility up as well.
Madam Speaker, I just want to touch briefly upon the contribution policy. I think this is something that we are looking at when we talk about maintaining our facilities and also the communities' input. I think it is a very workable policy that we have established where 20 percent is put in by the communities, but certainly the modification that has been made on this is where if the money is put up front that only 10 percent needs to be put in. So in our case it is going to be a $6-million contribution from the community. Just talking to the municipalities, it looks as though the amount that they will be putting in will be $3 million right at the outset, and so therefore their contribution is in place.
Madam Speaker, at the end of the day I suspect that if the communities are going to be using that avenue of putting money into their projects that, in fact, it will be less than it was originally, but I also feel that this is a way where the communities--it is a much more defined approach where it is 20-80. You are not looking at all the little different areas that used to be involved when Manitoba Health was involved in setting up a project. So I support the move that our government has taken, and I believe it is something that is very workable.
Also, the fact is that for a 10-year period, once the $6 million, that cap has been reached, for a 10-year period the communities will then have to put in their contribution. As will be in our case, we need to continue to build personal care homes. Our contribution will have been in place. So I believe that this is definitely the right move for the area.
Talking about using the resources within the area, I would like to touch on another one of our facilities, and that is found in Manitou. Several years ago the community, together with the health boards, made a very good change where they, in fact, built or they added a hospital to the personal care home, and now they are able to share the staff within the personal care home and in the hospital. Being a small community, this is a very, very workable situation.
So I believe that they are using their staff wisely. They are being resourceful in what they are doing and something also that the community is very appreciative of. Being a small community, they realize that they cannot have all the services. There, again, this is what I see taking place within the province, where we are defining areas. You know, not every town and not every municipality can have a hospital or can have a health care facility, but we are defining them and we are watching to see where people travel to, and, with that, the RHAs are then determining where the facilities should be located.
In the southern area, I believe it is working well. Certainly it is not without concerns, but I believe it is working well and, within time, I expect that we will see the systems there available to all the people.
I did want to mention my honourable colleague here for Sturgeon Creek. This is just reverting to some of the things that the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) was saying, and also the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), regarding the comments that the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) made regarding the health and a person keeping healthy. I know, and the member shares this with me occasionally, in fact he was telling me that this week he has already run 20 miles. He runs five miles a day, and I would challenge the member for St. James to try and keep up with him. She was challenging and wondering about his physical fitness and certainly--
An Honourable Member: I am running in the marathon.
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Mr. Dyck: Oh, the member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) is running in the marathon. That is admirable, absolutely.
I believe that our member for Sturgeon Creek, fondly known as Dr. McAlpine, you know, certainly is a physically fit person. So I just want to commend him for the work that he is doing .
So, Madam Speaker, just in support of this resolution, I believe that we need to continue to be efficient in our use of our health care dollars. As the member mentioned, we are going to be spending $1.9 billion, $1,700 for every man, woman, and child within this province, an awful lot of money. Certainly we want to spend money on health care, but I believe there are also better ways that we can spend it in the sense that it would be--I think we have another resolution on the floor which says we should do away with all health care facilities if every person would keep himself healthy.
An Honourable Member: My family does not spend $1,700.
Mr. Dyck: See, the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) mentions that his family does not spend those dollars. We should have them available for those who need it, but if we would all look after ourselves in a proper way, I believe that we could spend fewer dollars, and then our health care would not be taxed to the limit that it is taxed today.
Madam Speaker, I support this resolution. I certainly want us to have quality health care within the province but also want us to be resourceful in our spending and to spend our dollars wisely. The dollars that we are spending are hard-earned dollars. These are tax dollars and I think that we need to be good stewards of that.
So with those few words, Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for the opportunity to put these comments on record.
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I, too, want to put a few comments on the record as far as this resolution goes, and I have to say that in listening to what the two members from the opposite side have said about what this government is doing with health care, you would think that everything was running along smoothly, but if they would actually get out and listen to what people are saying and listen to the public, they would realize that there are very serious concerns about the way our health care system is being handled in this province, and people are very upset with what the government is doing.
The member who just spoke said we cannot keep things the way they were. Of course, New Democrats realize that you cannot keep things the way they were, but how can we possibly support changes this government is making that rather than being positive changes are negative changes. The changes that have been made, the reductions in services in health care are not in the best interests of people. So it is very difficult. Nobody wants things to stand still, but what we want are improvements, not have services taken away.
It was with interest that I listened to the comments from the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) saying that disease is going to win and the other member also talked about our having to keep ourselves healthy. I believe that we do have to keep ourselves healthy. We have to look towards preventative health care and things, but you know, Madam Speaker, not everybody has the good fortune to be able to spend the resources that some people may have to keep themselves healthy.
What we have to look at is how do we keep a community healthy. How do we address this fact that there are poor children in this province who are not eating properly? If you are not eating properly, you are not going to be healthy. How do you address the fact that there are hungry children? They go to school without having had breakfast. Those children are not going to be healthy. How do you address the fact that there are many children in northern and remote communities that do not have the services that they need to keep themselves healthy?
The government has to take a lot of steps to address those things and work towards building a healthy community. If you have healthy people, then you start taking the steps towards preventing the diseases. [interjection] The member talks about giving everybody a job. I know many people in rural Manitoba and in northern Manitoba who would want to be working but do not have that opportunity, but it is much more than that. There are children, whether their parents are working or not, if they had a job they would be able to buy food, but Manitoba has a very bad record. We have some of the poorest children in the province. Those are the things we have to address.
We have programs that could have been improved on, but instead of improving them, the government took them away. We had the rural Children's Dental Health Program, a program that was preventative health and was a very successful program in having young people have healthy teeth and talked to them about good hygiene, but the Conservatives took that program away. We had free eye examinations for all children. Again, if you find the problem early enough, you can take preventative measures. That program was taken away.
The member, by putting this resolution forward, is saying that he supports those kinds of things, the things that would keep people healthy. He supports the actions of this government. The Pharmacare program, now we do not want everybody on high doses of medication, but there are people who do need medication who cannot afford it. [interjection] Now the member wants us to talk about the good things. I would love to talk about the good things that have been happening, and I have to say that when I look at my constituency I am not sure where the good things are. I remember the one issue of the children's ward in the hospital being closed and moved into a very small area. It has been renovated now, but again the services for young children in hospitals have been reduced.
So, Madam Speaker, I would have to say that, when I look at the record of what has happened in the last 10 years under this government's administration, there are not improvements to health care. We have seen losses of beds, cutbacks in beds, nurses who are burnt out because they cannot keep up with the workload that is being imposed on them, waiting lists for testing worse than in any in the country for diagnostic services, 8,000 people waiting for ultrasound, over 4,000 people waiting for CAT scans. Surely a government can do better than that. Surely, by doing some planning, better services can be provided. But a government as this one has cannot make promises and then change their minds after the elections, and that is what we have had under this government.
A few things that they did, Madam Speaker, as I say, that cause us concern are their announcement in 1995--
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Sturgeon Creek does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I am surprised that the member from Sturgeon Creek would even get up and make such comments trying to educate people on this side of the House about being healthy. I think that if he was really interested in the health of the community, he would make an effort to encourage his government to get its blinders off and look at some of the poor people that we have in this province, in the core area, in the North, and right under our noses we have many poor people.
Maybe he would take the opportunity to start encouraging his government to put forward programs that would help people understand that they have to be healthy, and maybe he would also think about encouraging his government to do some positive things that would allow these people to get to have a job and have the opportunity to provide for their families.
Those are the kinds of things he should think about rather than getting on some high horse that he is the healthy one here, and he knows all about it, and he is going to educate people. Well, if you really believe in keeping people healthy, then do something positive for them and provide them with the needs that they have. Provide them with dental service, with eye care. Do not make them have to worry if every night whether there is food on their table or not.
This government should be ashamed of their record that they have of having some of the poorest poor people and having the worst record, as far as I am concerned, about destroying health care in this province. It is not a good record, and he should not try to defend a government that is responsible for some of the worst waiting lists, a government that is responsible for people having to lie in the hallways. To defend a government that has not lived up to its promises on personal care homes is absolutely disgraceful, and I would be ashamed to put forward a resolution that says that what they are doing in this province is good, because what they are doing is a disgrace, and he should go back and start thinking about what he really wants to say about how we should be building a healthy society.
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There are people all across the province that need help. There are people all across the province that need medical services, and not all diseases can be controlled by taking herbs and medicines. There are people who unfortunately have diseases. There are people who have cancer. [interjection] Yes, that is right. We talk about herbal treatments. Not everybody can afford them. We do not have that. That is not a covered service. So, you know, I wish the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) would just put his actions on the record. That is a very sophisticated action by someone who is supposed to be representing the people.
But, you know, Madam Speaker, this government was quite prepared to spend millions of dollars to bring an American into Manitoba to tell us how to save our health care system and, although they spent $4 million of taxpayers dollars to have this study done, it has done nothing to improve our health care system. Although they make all kinds of promises pre-election, they certainly have not lived up to those promises.
There are many things that they have done, so I am just quite surprised that the member would put forward a resolution like this and make those kinds of comments that disease is going to win if we do not start to look after ourselves. Disease is going to win for those people who have diseases but are not getting the services. Disease is going to win in those people who have to wait for ultrasound, people who have to wait for CAT scans. Disease is going to win in women with breast cancer because this government is dismantling breast screening and dismantling early diagnosis.
So this government has a lot to reckon with. They are responsible for a lot of very difficult things that people have to face because of what they have done within the health care system. There are things that you can do much better. There are much more preventative steps that we can take, but help the people do it.
Madam Speaker, this member's government is not doing it. They have not done a good job, and there is no way that we can support a motion that would say the government has been doing a good job. Thank you.
Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): I appreciate the few minutes that I have to put a few words on the record on the motion presented by the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), an individual who should actually understand and appreciate the seriousness of health care, because there are more seniors who reside in his riding and the west side of mine than any other place in Manitoba. What they are telling me and what they presumably are telling him is that our health care system is in a deplorable situation, and they have never seen a darker day and are looking for a future with a new government and a new vision.
Madam Speaker, I would like to go into exactly what this resolution is about. Where are we and where are we going?
Mr. McAlpine: Madam Speaker, the honourable member for St. James has put incorrect information on the record. Anybody who comes in here and has been here as long as the honourable member for St. James knows that when you put something on the record, it is at least supposed to be accurate. What the honourable member is putting on the record is not accurate, and I would ask you to bring her to order.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Sturgeon Creek does not have a point of order.
Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. The member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) had his opportunity to put his words on the record. I only have a few moments, and I do want to go through and reflect on this government's mismanagement, which has been clear from the start, when it comes to health care.
In 1995, this government ran on promises, promises, promises, which were broken, broken, broken, in particular, their promises to build numerous personal health care facilities, which caused total incompetence in the health care system, resulting in people having to get care in the hallways, resulting in extreme line-ups for diagnosis, resulting in a number of poor, poor decisions by this government.
Madam Speaker, another example of mismanagement and poor judgment by this government is the decision to close the Misericordia Hospital. The decision to, No. 1, renovate part of the hospital for the tune of a million dollars, that might seem like a pittance to the members on that side, but to the people in my riding, to the people who are in the hallway, to the people that need care, that is an important and significant amount of money that should have been put back into the health care system. What they have decided--renovate one year, close it down the next year--you talk about mismanagement, that is a perfect example.
Another example of mismanagement, in my opinion, Madam Speaker, is the decision to dismantle the comprehensive Breast Screening Program at Misericordia Hospital--a program recognized as a national example of--an international recognition of a comprehensive program that was there for the women of Manitoba. It is shameful that they have now decided to close that program.
Madam Speaker, where are we? I tell you where we are. I had an example of a young woman who was on her way to Grafton, North Dakota. Why? Because she had such serious pain that the surgeon would not conduct the operation until she received a MRI. The waiting list for the MRI was over six months. With a newborn baby, whom she was not even able to lift, she was forced to go to Grafton, North Dakota, to get the test, which she was able to do. At her own expense, she went down there. That is where Manitobans are going.
Do you know who was operating the MRI? A Winnipegger who could not get employment at our own hospitals because the machines are turned off on weekends and the machines are turned off in the evening and are not providing services to Manitobans. So Manitobans have to drive to North Dakota to get service from a Winnipegger who cannot get employment here where there is the need, where the need is identified, and where this person could find full-time employment if this government looked at a comprehensive and reasonable approach to health care.
Are Manitobans concerned about health care? Overwhelmingly. This government knows it and is desperately trying to put band-aids on a system which they have created to the verge of collapse. Unfortunately, Madam Speaker, it is not sufficient. When you are moving a system that is so important to Manitobans and so extensive and so large, you cannot take out such significant supports and expect it to come around the corner quickly.
Manitobans expect and deserve quality health care, and what they receive from this government is deceit and betrayal and broken promises, less health care, fewer services for the people of Manitoba.
That is why there is absolutely no way that I or this side could support a resolution which actually that side of the House has the nerve to present to Manitobans. Manitobans know they have had a pitiful record in terms of their management of the health care system. Their management in terms of most issues, including the recent announcement on hospitals, has not been endorsed by the public, has not been endorsed by Manitobans, so for them to come forward with the idea that they have somehow preserved health care--hardly.
What we have seen is a deterioration of our health care system, which has hurt Manitobans in our own families, in our own homes, and probably personally. Many of you, whether you have gone to the hospital yourself or your family has gone, you have seen less nursing care, less facilities, less diagnosis available, and you know personally that health care has suffered under the Filmon Conservative government.
Your record stands and the people of Manitoba know it, and there is no way that they or our side of the house will endorse a resolution that suggests in any way that there has been a betterment or an improvement in health care for Manitobans. It is absolutely unreasonable that the government has presented this motion and that we would endorse it.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for St. James will have eight minutes remaining.
The hour being 6 p.m., this House is adjourned and stands adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow (Thursday).