Mr. Chairman (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs.
When the committee began consideration of these Estimates this morning, it was agreed that the questioning would be free-ranging and would not be done on a line-by-line basis. I now open the floor for questioning.
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Mr. Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister if, when we are talking about capital projects, infrastructure and so on, and I have recommended this to previous ministers, to two of them that we have had before, and I have also been approached by NACC communities along with some chiefs and councils particularly in the northern area where some are wondering whether it might be more feasible to, because the NACC communities have to wait such a long time before they get infrastructure, and I am talking specifically sewer and water. Everybody likes to have sewer and water in their homes.
Sometimes I get asked a question: Why do the community council and the chief and council not get together, especially those communities where the reserve and the community council is right adjacent to each other--why do they not get together, the provincial government and the federal government, to see about maybe having joint capital projects, thereby making the money go longer and probably benefiting a lot more people that way?
Hon. David Newman (Minister of Northern Affairs): We encourage that and hope you will support us in that encouragement and get more results in, I think, a changing set of attitudes, where what was seen to be virtually impossible because of the unwillingness to collaborate is being replaced by more good will and sense of practicality which is creating an environment where that may be now possible. We would look forward to working with you to make that possible within areas in your constituency.
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Mr. Lathlin: Perhaps I will ask the minister: Has he ever been approached by community councils and/or chiefs and councils, and secondly, does he have an idea of how many communities there are in the North where this kind of an arrangement would be feasible?
Mr. Newman: We have the beginnings of that kind of arrangement to varying degrees in Easterville, Norway House, Cross Lake, and it would also be a very viable thing to do in Moose Lake and Berens River.
Mr. Lathlin: I would like to ask the minister now whether the capital planning process, not from the government side but from the side of the community councils, has it changed from the days when community councils would be asked to come to Thompson or The Pas or wherever and a Northern Affairs representative would go through the capital plan? In this case we were always talking about $2 million, and these community councils, representatives would come there with their list of capital projects. They used to call them wish lists, and then get together, prioritize projects and, you know, keeping in mind that they only had $2 million to work with. Has that changed at all?
Mr. Newman: The situation has changed from those days. We now have community participation, representation by community on a board. The community through participation on the board has created criteria. We have a neutral chair, and the prioritization process is done by public participation and submissions and application of the criteria by that board.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, can the minister tell us what would be the criteria before, say, if I were from Cormorant, because Cormorant is more advanced according to the minister's formula--for example, if I were from an aboriginal community--oh, I am going to pick, say, somewhere in Skownan, a small community, for example, if I wanted to put in sewer and water in my community that has 50 homes, what would be the criteria before my project ever got on the list?
Mr. Newman: The capital approval board process bases their recommendations on three categories and within funding available. The categories are these: legislative, maintain existing, and new justified projects. The $2,379,600 allocated is spread throughout these three categories on the following percentage basis: legislative, 70 percent; maintain existing, 20 percent; new justified projects, 10 percent. The legislative requirements include the following criteria: water must be Canadian drinking water standards; sewer must be Manitoba environmental act and regulations standards; the building codes, standards and safety standards required by health and safety laws and regulations. Maintain existing is based on maintaining existing standards of service such as vehicle replacement, building upgrading repairs and road upgrading. New justified projects are based on applications for other municipal infrastructure and equipment.
Mr. Lathlin: This year in the planning process, if I were to come in with my proposal to build sewer and water, how would I be treated? How would the minister determine whether or not I got funding for my project?
Mr. Newman: That particular situation would fall under the legislative category and the criteria that I mentioned. The extra $1 million in this budget devoted to capital would simply enhance the funding for those applications.
Mr. Lathlin: I do not know if the minister, Mr. Chairperson, has already answered my question. I was going to ask him: given what exists there now in terms of availability of funds and so on, I wonder how long I would wait before my project was ever funded.
Mr. Newman: To give you an illustration of the time lapse between application and funding, the commitments for the 1998-99 fiscal year were made in September 1996 for one half year '98-99, and for the second half of '98-99, commitments were approved in September 1997. So there is that lapse in terms of applying, approving and then there is another lapse in terms of actual implementation. It has been pointed out to me, there is a design time in there as well before the actual construction proceeds.
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Mr. Lathlin: What if my project were not to be funded, what would happen then?
Mr. Newman: They would reapply the next year if they still wanted it or they would come up with some creative way for addressing the problem using their own initiative, either themselves or in collaboration with other communities and jurisdictions and funding sources.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister if--I believe he said, or somewhere along the way I picked up this multiyear planning. Is there that type of a planning system with regard to capital that Northern Affairs--and again, I would like to ask him, if there is a long-term multiyear plan for capital, how is it updated to determine what projects are going on line next?
Mr. Newman: Consistent again with the philosophy of the sustainable self-reliant community strategy, the communities in the applications and the invitations to apply must address a multiyear approach, and they must advance multiyear approaches. It is up to their strategizing, their own planning, their own capabilities, knowledge of the amount of dollars that are available and the support and assistance of resources in the department that the multiyear plan is created and revised. So it is community driven.
Mr. Lathlin: I have two short questions here. Well, maybe they are not short. The first one is short anyway. He mentioned something about a constable who had gone out for training for one week, a community constable, I guess. I would like to ask the minister, Mr. Chair: Where would this constable go for training, what kind of training would he be getting and who provides it, and thirdly, how many community constables do we have in the NACC communities?
Mr. Newman: My staff are checking to confirm the number of existing constables. The answer to your questions are: where--D Division provides RCMP, and the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba provides drug and alcohol training. The exact number I will undertake to get for you, hopefully before the day is out.
Mr. Lathlin: Is the minister aware of how First Nations train their RCMP, Mr. Chairperson?
Mr. Newman: Yes, and we partner with them in that training process from time to time.
Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I know some First Nations still follow the--I do not know what I would call it--band constable training program, I will call it, because I do not know what else to call it, whereby constables from the reserve are sent out for training, usually one or two weeks, but more and more First Nations are going to a more comprehensive training. As a matter of fact, we have quite a number of graduates now who have gone through the RCMP training depot in Regina where they train for six months, come back and work for First Nations as band constables with exactly the same kind of training as the RCMP get, except the First Nations constables are not allowed to have guns on them.
I am just wondering: Would the minister not agree that that would be far more or far better training for community constables, rather than just sending them for one week training at a time?
Mr. Newman: The answer to your question is by all means this is something that we have not only looked at and we understand but our community members have been involved in from time to time very successfully. I attended a policing meeting with the Southeast Tribal Council and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) just last week, and it struck me very positively when the lead RCMP person represented at that meeting identified himself as being from Camperville, and he was an aboriginal person, a Metis, he said, who had started off and worked his way up through the system. So we have some wonderful role models like him. Wherever I go, I see Constable Sam Anderson and people like that, who are role models.
My deputy advises me that there are a number of success stories like that that have come out of the Northern Affairs communities, and we are very aggressively supportive of further involvement like that. Some of the programs the First Nations are involved in through summer programs and the intern program are excellent programs which are working well and we would certainly love our community members to be involved in as well.
The answer to your question about how many community constables there are, I am advised that there are 11 from 11 different communities, Northern Affairs communities. I can give you the names of those communities if you want. To illustrate the numbers of community members for the record that I am advised have become RCMP officers and therefore role models from their Northern Affairs communities, two have come from Barrows, one from Manigotagan, one from Berens River, and one from Moose Lake, for a total of five, and I have already indicated the one from Camperville.
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Mr. Lathlin: The next question I have, Mr. Chairperson, is I just wanted the minister to give us an update on this. I am not sure exactly what it is called, but somebody told me at one time that it was called a round table on--it was a committee anyway where I believe the previous Minister of Northern Affairs at one time had gone to Thompson and had a meeting with several community leaders, and from that meeting emerged this round table. One of the issues they talk about all the time is highways and transportation. Committee members are comprised of representatives from MKO and I believe NACC and from the towns in the North like, I believe, Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids and Thompson.
I was just wondering if the minister would care to update us as to whether that particular round table is still relevant. If so, who is in it, and what really is its mandate?
Mr. Newman: I had the privilege of concluding the memorandum of agreement with MKO, then represented by Grand Chief George Muswagon, and urban industrial communities by Bill Comaskey and NACC president Sonny Cline in 1997, in the spring or early summer.
The concept at the initial stages was to have a huddle group, a group of leaders of the northern communities, and that is the aboriginal population in the North representing First Nations through MKO, the NACC community committees, committee councils through NACC, the urban industrial communities of the North representing communities like Thompson, Flin Flon and The Pas, Lynn Lake, et cetera, to have them get together with the support, encouragement and resource support of the provincial government through me who would be also the means of accessing other government departments, and when appropriate, the Economic Development Board which I sit on.
The MKO, I know, not only has supported it by signing the agreement and participating at meetings, but actually, as I understand it, provides the office for the northern round table. I know that the Thicket Portage mayor, Bob McCleverty, operates out of that office.
The identified current members of the northern round table are MKO Grand Chief Francis Flett, Nelson House Chief Jerry Primrose, Lynn Lake Mayor Ollie Dulewich, Thompson Mayor Bill Comaskey, Camperville Mayor and NACC President Sonny Clyne, and Wabowden Councillor Reg Mead.
When I am invited to participate in the meetings, I have never refused and have enthusiastically participated. When asked to share my ideas, I shared my ideas. When I was asked to help them access--I know in Lynn Lake I had suggested they look to the credit union movement when the CIBC chose to close the branch, and facilitated access to the Credit Union Central, arranged a special meeting in Winnipeg during the Mining and Minerals Convention November of 1997, for them to meet with the credit union movement and get all the details, not only for the benefit of Lynn Lake but all Northern Affairs communities and urban industrial communities. Pursuant to that, I know a feasibility study was done by the credit union in a shared expense way by a particular credit union and Lynn Lake. I know Wabowden was looking at a credit union. I know Thompson had its interest, so that was a kind of exercise that we went through collaboratively.
We have discussed housing issues and the problem of offers there of housing while people are going to school in Thompson, for example. We have discussed northern transportation issues: Hudson Bay railway and their problems with quality of service. There were meetings arranged, and to my delight my latest report through Bob McCleverty is that things have improved considerably in terms of standards of service.
In the area of challenges in the forestry industry, there were concerns about Tolko so we had staff go to work and gathered the facts and ascertained policy and worked with the concerned communities. Particularly I know Wabowden had real concerns. My understanding is that things have been worked out generally to the satisfaction of the concerned people at this time. I know that pursuant to this I had a one-on-one meeting with Allan Thorlakson of Tolko to make very clear my position as minister and what I expected from Tolko.
That, hopefully, gives you an idea. There are no limits on the kinds of things they can consider, and I have invited them to absolutely come up with the best ideas and come up with a plan. If the kind of collaboration you referred to is supporting, could be led by these community leaders, we will be there in resource and support ways to facilitate achievement of those kinds of things.
Mr. Lathlin: The other question I had for the minister, Mr. Chairperson, when allocating funds to the various Northern Affairs communities, how is that determined in terms of how much money a community might get? How do you determine the level of funding, for example, Norway House would get?
Mr. Newman: Up until the self-reliant communities initiative being approved, the department had operated on a need basis. The initiative as one of its component parts as a funding formula approach and the formula has been developed to allocate municipal grants in a fair, consistent manner taking into consideration the geographic and remote conditions of individual communities. There is a base for the formula, based on the existing infrastructure and services and service and industry standards. We wanted to make sure that the formula had integrity to it that was objective, so we had it reviewed by outside expertise and got some feedback, so refined it and incorporated the recommendations we got.
I can go on to indicate the areas of emphasis under the formula we touched on earlier, but I will only deal with that if you want me to take the time.
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Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I just wanted to know what helps the minister determine when deciding how much money is supposed to go to Norway House; that is what I wanted to know. I guess I am more interested in the base, you know, like what base do you use. In some communities, for example, or in some funding formula, government agencies will use the population figures, for example. That is where you start and then from there you factor in geographical area, environment, remoteness and so on. Is that basically how it works at Northern Affairs?
Mr. Newman: I want to make sure that this is precise in terms of accuracy. The guiding principles in the development of the funding formula were: (1) sustainability, (2) accountability, (3) shared responsibility, (4) fair and consistent, (5) guaranteed safe environment, (6) appropriate level of maintenance standards, and (7) simple and understandable. The priorities incorporated in the sustainability formula were: provision for vehicle replacement and sufficient maintenance capability to ensure health and safety standards are met; flexibility to meet unanticipated costs like water breaks, vehicle breakdown, et cetera; audit and insurance capability; improved salaries to attract qualified staff and an allowance for training; consideration of the cost of living in the salary scale; basic standard for locally generated revenue; administrative standards set; recreation applied to communities based on criteria for part time or full time; allowance for constable where RCMP service is not readily available; allowance for fire department; remoteness or geographic factor included in operations and maintenance costs along with industry standards; formula is infrastructure- and service-driven; performance and accountability standards included.
Mr. Lathlin: The other thing I wanted to ask the minister is: the population for the NACC communities, is it static or is it going down, coming up, or where is it at?
Mr. Newman: It diminished noticeably after Bill C-31.
Mr. Lathlin: Could the minister tell us: does he have any idea approximately by how much?
Mr. Newman: It diminished from about 10,000 to 8,000, roughly.
Mr. Lathlin: Does the minister, Mr. Chairperson, allocate any funding at Northern Affairs based on population figures?
Mr. Newman: Our Municipal Tax Sharing Programs are based on population and also the VLT grant.
Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I only have a few questions. I would like to refer back to what my colleague, our critic, was asking previously, and that is in the area of how funding is determined for each community council. On behalf of my colleague the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), who had to leave because of a previous engagement that she could not miss later on today, one of the recurring, or an issue that comes up periodically and rightly so probably for many years, particularly in the community of Barrows that she represents and also other communities including areas that I am familiar with, Seymourville and Manigotagan, there appears to be--I would like to ask the minister how funding is determined for salary.
Now he indicated previously, just a few minutes ago, that naturally each community council would like to get the most qualified staff members, but it would appear that people like clerks and equipment operators and people that are employed by community councils have not had their salaries increased for several years now, and certainly in some communities one could argue that the salaries of some of these hardworking staff people are not--there salaries are not comparable to doing equal work in another area of the province, for example.
My question, simply, Mr. Chairperson, is: how do we determine for the staffpersons working for community councils, how is it determined that they are receiving the adequate salary, and who determines that salary, I guess, is what I am asking?
Mr. Newman: The department has guidelines for salaries, but it is nothing but a guideline, and again, consistent with the philosophy of the self-reliant communities initiative, the councils can establish the rates, and they must never be less than the minimum wage. As indicated in the movement towards sustainability, it is recognized that to retain and attract the quality people necessary to perform increasingly challenging tasks that, with relinquishment of the responsibility by the department and the entrusting responsibility of the community leaders, there is a need to have better trained staff. That is why resources are being dedicated for the purpose of training and for increasing the capacity to pay larger wages to the employees of the councils.
Mr. Robinson: Along the same line, in the area of benefits and pensions for these staff members for community councils, I wonder if the minister could give us an idea as to how that is being factored in with the new initiative and, also people that are not in the new initiative as yet but have probably the same workload as people that are now looking at opting into the new initiative.
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Mr. Newman: All employees of Northern Affairs community councils are contributing members to the municipal benefits board, and their pension and other group benefits come through the auspices of that organization.
Mr. Robinson: I would like to refer back to the subject of community constables. The minister told us that there are 11 community constables in 11 different communities currently. One of the big initiatives right now with respect to First Nations, and again the minister made reference to that when he was indicating that he was at a meeting with, I believe it was Southeast Resource Development Council, certainly the First Nations policing policy, which is a 52-48 program with the federal government and the provincial government throwing in their 48 percent and 52 percent of course representing the federal government, Manitoba is one of the provinces that lacks behind, together with Newfoundland, in this particular program, although the argument will be made by the government that the Dakota Ojibway Police Service has been funded under this very progressive program.
I would like to ask the minister whether or not some of these NACC communities that do have community constables could opt into such a program, or, at the very least, side agreements could be made in areas where it would be deemed appropriate. I am thinking of a community like Berens River which is next door to a big reserve, for example. In the event, let us say southeast embarks upon an agreement with the federal and provincial governments on the First Nations policing policy program or the 52-48 program, whether or not there could be a side arrangement for the community council at Berens River to latch onto the Berens River First Nation which is next door to the community.
Mr. Newman: I thank you for raising that idea because it coincides with my own thoughts, and absolutely. The honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) made a point about collaborating on capital projects, and exactly the same rationale we discussed there justifies the collaborative effort with First Nations in terms of a policing service and having heard the RCMP's proposition and having heard their apologies, together with the federal government's apologies, for not moving forward with more dispatch over the years in these kinds of initiatives. There is no doubt the RCMP are making the overtures and the commitments to do these kinds of agreements, and by all means the Northern Affairs communities are encouraged by me, will get my support, my staff's support and having input into these opportunities, and if they enhance the chances or the priorities of a neighbouring First Nations community to get that sort of local police support and presence, we will be enthusiastically supportive.
Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair
Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, not for a moment am I implying that independence or local authority by local community councils be given up in these maybe side agreements that we are talking about with policing authorities. The scenario could be that a year from now we will have a First Nations policing policy agreement in southeast, for example--that is what I am implying--but I do not want to say for a moment that the Berens River community council should lose their authority to police their own community. I believe that the minister and I are on the same wavelength in that regard.
There is an issue that my colleague the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) raised and that is the issue of the municipal tax-sharing arrangement, or perhaps the minister was the one who raised this. I want to talk briefly on the subject of unconditional grants. Now I understand this to work this way. It comes from Finance to Rural Development and then ultimately to the Department of Northern Affairs, and then at that point, it is allocated to the communities, including First Nations communities in the province of Manitoba.
One of the common complaints that we get on a regular basis from our constituents is that in recent years we have seen a decline, or there is perceived to be a decline in the population of some First Nations communities and some Northern Affairs communities--and the minister just pointed out that there has been a decline in Northern Affairs communities because of the Bill C-31 law. However, it has been argued by First Nations communities and other aboriginal communities that the decline is based on old statistics, population statistics that are not up to date.
So I wonder if the minister could comment on how these unconditional grants are determined, not only for First Nations communities but indeed some of the NACC communities that are part of his responsibility.
Mr. Newman: The provincial government distributes the provincial-municipal tax sharing grant to all municipalities, Northern Affairs communities and First Nations, and the population data utilized in allocating the grant is 1996 Stats Canada data for the current year, and the grant is distributed under The Provincial-Municipal Tax Sharing Act.
The criteria for grant distribution under the act is No. 1 under subsection 4, sub 4 of The Income Tax Act, Manitoba. It provides the percentage of personal tax payable under the federal act shall be 52 percent, of which 2.2 percent shall be for municipal purposes. Subsection 7, subsection 4.1 of The Income Tax Act, Manitoba provides that an amount equal to 1 percent of the taxable income of corporations earned in Manitoba shall be for municipal purposes.
A restructuring of provincial-municipal tax sharing payments was approved in 1993. The municipalities, Northern Affairs communities and First Nations receive a basic, per capita payment, and municipalities with direct RCMP policing costs receive a supplement equivalent to triple the basic per capita payment in recognition of policing costs. Municipalities which have a direct responsibility for the costs of policing are identified as municipal cost communities, whereas those that are policed at provincial expense under RCMP agreement are identified as provincial cost communities.
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Annually, the Minister of Finance forwards to Northern Affairs the amount of unconditional tax sharing grants, funds to be distributed to all Northern Affairs communities and all First Nations in Manitoba. Upon receipt of monies the Minister of Northern Affairs forwards to each community and First Nation the appropriate amount based on the latest Statistics Canada numbers available. Northern Affairs communities and First Nations are not subject to RCMP policing costs. Their portion of the provincial-municipal tax sharing grant decreased in 1993.
Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairperson, the answer to the question is helpful. However, I want to ask the minister whether or not the provincial figures, particularly in areas that it is responsible for, like NACC communities, where it would appear that the unconditional grants or the amount has dwindled the most, but that is not to say that First Nations people and First Nations communities have not experienced similar declines in the grants that they previously received.
Would it make more sense that the numbers the province has at their disposal be more useful than using 1996 StatsCan figures?
Mr. Newman: My deputy, who has been around for many years dealing with this particular issue, advises me that is the way it used to be done and it used to cause a lot of arguments. They find that the Stats Canada reference is a better basis to make those determinations.
Mr. Robinson: I will just leave the subject at that, Mr. Chairperson. I want to just make a few closing remarks, and I do have a question or two for the minister as well. There are several issues that are facing aboriginal people across this nation and indeed in this province, including poverty, justice related issues, airstrips, roads in northern Manitoba, healing initiatives, the need to assist the survivors of the concentration camps that were known as residential schools.
I know that this is a federal government responsibility for the most part, and also there have been repeated calls by many communities to upgrade sewer and water needs in many communities. The Hydro rates, again, are continually raised with us. In spite of the surplus that Hydro realizes, aboriginal communities and First Nations communities still pay among the highest rates in the province of Manitoba and that could be argued as well.
Alcoholism, drug abuse, solvent abuse, family violence--these continue to plague, unfortunately, the aboriginal reality in this province. Urban relocation continues because of one reason or the other. For the most part now it is primarily because of health reasons that many of our people have to relocate to urban environments like Winnipeg, and then what we are faced with now is what can be described as anything less than a dilemma. I know the minister is quite aware of these issues that I have just raised, also the gang-related problems that are existent not only in the city of Winnipeg now, but indeed in other towns and communities throughout the province of Manitoba.
So we have a vast number of issues, a vast number of problems that continue to plague the aboriginal population in this province. The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, in the tabling of their report, which was quite comprehensive, and I do not believe anybody here can claim that we read the report in its entirety, but certainly we have made an effort to have a look at some of the major recommendations contained in the Royal Commission's report.
One of the recommendations in that report was in the area of housing, and certainly First Nations people are considered to be Manitobans as well. One of the recommendations is that governments have to become active in catching up with the housing shortage that is being experienced in many First Nations communities throughout this province. The provinces have been called upon to be a participant in this initiative together with the federal government. I am wanting to ask the minister as to whether or not the minister has had an opportunity to review that very serious and very needed recommendation, that being an area of housing, where the commission calls on the national government and provincial governments, together in partnership with the First Nations communities, and aboriginal communities, I might add, in order to catch up with the housing backlog that is evident in many communities. I represent many communities, unfortunately, that have two to three families in one dwelling. Sometimes it is not uncommon to see 20 people in a two-bedroom house in some of these communities that I represent.
So I just wanted to solicit the comments of the minister with respect to this very serious issue.
Mr. Newman: Thanks for raising that issue. It is not only timely, but it is certainly one of the highest priorities we have in our whole healthy sustainable communities approach for First Nations and for the Northern Affairs communities that I am directly responsible for.
I will share with you an opportunity, and with it an invitation to provide the support of the First Nations and Northern Affairs communities in your constituencies. We are going to be going to a Native Affairs ministers conference in Quebec City on May 19 and 20, and the federal ministers responsible for my kinds of responsibilities in Manitoba--Minister Goodale and Minister Jane Stewart will be there, as will ministers from the provinces and territories who have responsibilities for Native Affairs. This is pursuant to the Premier's meeting that was held in December of 1997 in Winnipeg.
The approach that we are taking may be unique--I am not sure what other jurisdictions are going to follow this--but we have the opportunity to have a delegation of eight people at that meeting, including myself, and I will be there with our director Harvey Bostrom and one other staffperson, and the other five parts of the delegation will be representatives of the aboriginal community in Manitoba. The whole goal there is to build a collaborative approach at a national table to try and get a focus of the federal government and the combined support of the provincial governments and territories through their Native Affairs ministers to raise that item up.
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I have asked those representatives of the aboriginal community to indicate what their top priorities are, and my initial meeting has disclosed that the First Nations appear to want housing to be the No. 1 item, as you have indicated. As a result, I am willing to bring that to the national table and welcome your support in working with them with yourself and your staff support, whatever, in helping us to put together a provincial position which will have some not only chances of being listened to but can be brought to fruition, can actually achieve some practical, tangible results in the short term and the long term. So I describe that as very much an opportunity.
My own view is that, rather than just looking at responding in old ways to old problems, I am encouraging some very creative thinking which might necessarily involve collaborative approaches. My own experience in life and experience in the department and what my northern community members have been telling me is that the best solution to housing is obvious from history, and that is private ownership of housing. People tend to be more responsible for their housing. There is less maintenance, and there is more self-esteem. You build up a competence to practise ownership. That can lead to employment; it can lead to healthier families and all of the things that grow out of--sometimes the personal development that grows out of a better approach to housing, not to speak of the advantages of just more sanitary conditions and less crowding and that kind of thing.
Mr. Chairperson in the Chair
So what are some creative examples? I will share them with you because I think the more ideas that can be put on the table, the better. I have heard ideas like why not deal with problems, the on-reserve problems, such as I have heard on-reserve landlords speak of problems of getting tenants into housing that they own. These are First Nations people on reserve that own houses; they have problems getting tenants in those houses. There are people that choose rather to live in a CMHC house where they get the social assistance to pay for the housing. CMHC and Indian and Northern Affairs will not pay for housing in that commercial--the owned house by the landlord. So it does not even encourage people to own houses and rent them out on reserve.
So a novel kind of approach, that I have heard and it is very intriguing to me, is what if you--where you have a Northern Affairs community beside a reserve--converted Crown land into private property, built housing units, condominiums, whatever kinds of housing units people want to live in and rented them out on a commercial basis to people that did have income. That would then at least take some of the pressure off and you would be right adjacent to your communities.
I say to Northern Affairs communities, that is great, they can provide a tax base for the community that can provide customers for services. It can reattract people who are prepared to pay rent or own housing, own condominiums, own homes; it could be subdivisions. All of those kinds of things I am open to listen to. Through multidepartmental involvement, involvement of the private sector, involvement by organizations like Habitat for Humanity and the Mennonite Central Committee, funding bodies like the Communities Economic Development Fund, there are First Nations organizations that do financing, through a more visionary approach by the federal government, those kinds of things can be done.
I could go on and on, honourable member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), on this issue, and I invite your full participation in these kinds of initiatives, working with your constituents, because we are going to be there with them. We like you with us and having a full understanding of what we are doing, and where you think we are doing the right thing, work with us, where you think we are doing the wrong thing, tell us why but be part of the solution.
We invite that, and in working towards the Quebec meeting, I encourage you to let your views be known to the AMC, let your views be known to the Manitoba Metis Federation, let your views be known to the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg.
Mr. Robinson: Certainly in preparation for the meeting in Quebec, Mr. Chairperson, on the 19th and 20th of May, the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and I will certainly add our voices to some of the areas that we view as troubled areas and areas that need immediate attention, and the minister rightly identified housing as being one of those important needs in many aboriginal communities throughout the province of Manitoba.
I want to conclude by thanking the minister and the staff. Many of the staff we are quite familiar with and certainly are accustomed to sort of work in the environment that we come from, the member for The Pas and myself.
One final question, Mr. Chairperson, before you go line by line, and that is the area of northern transportation and that is airstrips and roads. These things are troubled areas and whenever we are asked, we are in a dilemma because when it comes to northern Manitoba and transportation, we not only have to consider the minister responsible for that particular department, but many times, perhaps the minister will realize this with phone calls to his office that he, being the Native Affairs minister in the province of Manitoba, he being responsible for Northern Affairs for the government of Manitoba is often called upon to add his voice to these much needed services for the safety of the travelling public in northern Manitoba.
We need all the help we can get in northern Manitoba to upgrade situations of not only short airstrips but navigational equipment that will help pilots, who are very brave in my opinion, who travel to these northern communities and a project like Wasagamack and Ste. Theresa Point who are trying to twin their communities and trying to further their needs of having that airstrip built in the very near future, so I simply want to end by asking the minister to add his voice to those many hundreds of aboriginal people and northern Manitobans generally, that northern Manitoba does need some safety or some consideration for some attention to be paid to the northern transportation system.
Mr. Newman: Once again I extend an invitation to you and your constituents and any other organizations which your constituents are involved in to support our provincial effort to get more federal support for transportation in this province. We are certainly supported by UMM, MAUM and Northern Affairs communities. We would welcome the support of AMC, MKO, MMF and the New Democratic Party through you, to persuade the federal government to pay back to Manitoba the money that it takes out in the form of fuel taxes and give us our just entitlement, and also reflect to Manitoba the kinds of contributions that are made to other jurisdictions in the country with respect to transportation.
We also would solicit your support for involvement in any federal infrastructure programs. We think the federal government should do more. We would love to see more of that focused on northern socioeconomic development, and we also solicit your mature leadership and guidance with respect to collaborative initiatives in conjunction with the private sector that sometimes has to build roads. For example, certainly organizations like Tolko and Tembec, in their forestry businesses need roads, and sometimes if they need roads that can be a partner. The Province of Manitoba can be a partner; the federal government can be a partner; communities that are going to benefit from development can be partners, other industries, tourism.
So we encourage collaborative approaches to address that challenge, and thank you for raising that one as well. Again, if the desire of the representatives of our delegation federally is to make that the second priority, we would certainly be prepared to consider that as well. My understanding is that the other priority may be employment generally, particularly youth employment.
* (1600)
Mr. Chairperson: Okay, we will go line by line now. Item 19.1. Northern Affairs Executive (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $245,500--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $126,500--pass.
If at any time members would like to--just sing out, if you will, because I might not notice you. Okay?
Item 19.2. Northern Affairs Operations (a) Financial and Administrative Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $335,800--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $121,000--pass.
Item 19.2.(b) Program and Operational Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $178,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $90,300--pass; (3) Community Operations $5,540,800--pass; (4) Regional Services $691,300--pass; (5) Grants $253,700--pass.
Item 19.2.(c) Community Support Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,315,000--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $498,200--pass.
Item 19.2.(d) Technical Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $130,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $67,800--pass.
Item 19.2.(e) Northern Affairs Fund (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $259,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $63,700.
Item 19.2.(f) Inter-Regional Services (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $381,900--pass (2) Other Expenditures $101,100--pass.
Item 19.2.(g) Agreements Management and Co-ordination (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $602,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $187,200--pass; (3) Northern Flood Agreement $1,174,600--pass.
Item 19.2.(h) Native Affairs Secretariat (2) Other Expenditures $140,100--pass; (3) Aboriginal Development Programs $444,900--pass; (4) Partners for Careers $200,000--pass.
Item 19.2.(j) Communities Economic Development Fund $1,345,000--pass.
Resolution 19.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $14,552,300 for Northern Affairs Operations for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
Item 19.3. Expenditures Related to Capital (a) Northern Communities $3,379,600--pass; (b) Community Access and Resource Roads $235,000--pass; (c) Less: Recoverable from Capital Initiatives ($1,000,000)--pass.
Resolution 19.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,614,600 for Expenditures Related to Capital for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
Consideration of the minister's salary, the last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs, is item 19.1.(a) Minister's Salary $13,100.
At this point we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item.
Item 19.1.(a) Minister's Salary $13,100--pass.
This completes--no, pardon me, we have got one resolution here.
Resolution 19.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $385,100 for Northern Affairs Executive for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1999.
This completes the Department of Northern Affairs. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this section of the Committee of Supply are Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism.
Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates? [agreed]