4th-36th Vol. 32A-Committee of Supply-Labour

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Good morning. Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Labour.

Previously this committee granted unanimous consent to revert back to line 11.2.(f) Workplace Safety and Health (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. The member for Transcona, to continue your questions.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I had the opportunity when we sat last in this committee to ask questions with respect to Workplace Safety and Health, and I will continue my questioning in that area at this time. I had left some information with some of the minister's staff with respect to training, and I wanted to find out, because it has come to my attention over the course of the last six or eight months that there is a problem with training, that some of the staff are not being given an equal opportunity, if I can use that term, to train along with their counterparts from other jurisdictions in the province with respect to the Workplace Safety branch.

So I want to ask questions in that regard at this time and find out what training programs for your internal departmental staff, and I am talking more specifically here hygienists and field officers, that you have had take place over the course of the last year or two, and whether or not all of those employees from every sector of the province have had the opportunity to take part in those training programs, if there were any.

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Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): I guess at this point I can assure my critic that there is training taking place, that the internal training is available to all staff members, that we have increased the number of industrial hygienists that work for the department, and that the amount of support for out-of-province training has remained constant this year to last year to the year before.

Mr. Reid: Well, I asked a more specific question than that. I wanted to know what training programs you put on for your field officers in Workplace Safety, which I imagine would include the hygienists and perhaps others. If you have specific information, I would like to know who participated in those programs and what programs you put on to train staff to keep them current with skills necessary to allow them to perform their jobs to meet the needs of inspections and the changes that are happening with respect to hazardous materials and changes in workplace methods, et cetera.

Mr. Gilleshammer: So I would interpret that you would like a curriculum guide to get into the detail of the training that takes place.

Mr. Reid: What I am looking for is the type of training that the department put on, a summary, just a very brief summary, of what was incorporated into that type of training, and the people who participated in those particular training programs for the occupational hygienists and your field inspection officer staff.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The amount of dollars that we spend has been constant. I mentioned that a minute ago and I mention it again. The emphasis in the upcoming year will be on management training, computer training, audit training, the certified industrial hygiene support, the advanced incident investigations, and I believe we make use of the RCMP there. We work with the U of M on the Occupational Safety and Health course, and we do a certain amount of technology training, as well, on the Internet. Again, if training is offered across the department, and certainly across this portion of the department, the salary or the training dollars are constant, and if it is more detail on what I have indicated the emphasis will be, we can provide some more information on that.

There is a fair degree of staff expertise. We have a number of safety and health officers who are Canadian registered safety professionals. They hold a University of Manitoba occupational safety and health certificate. We can give you numbers of staff with the qualifications that they have if you want to get into more detail about the actual individuals within the department.

Mr. Reid: I appreciate the information that you have shared here, and I take it that is your plan for this current budget year that we have now just entered.

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct.

Mr. Reid: I would also like some information with respect to your training programs, if any, that you had for staff last budget year that just concluded a few weeks ago, to find out what programs were offered to staff, what staff were asked to participate or attend into those programs, so I can understand more clearly whether or not the equal or same opportunities were given to the inspection officers wherever they may be in the province of Manitoba, because the information coming to my attention says that that is not the case that is happening. I want to make sure that no matter where an inspection officer is stationed in the province, that individual would be kept current of the skills necessary to perform the job and that the relationship or the proximity to Winnipeg should not be a factor in these matters, as I am being told that it is.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, maybe to help us zero in on what it is the member would like to know, is it the mines inspectors and the mines engineers that the member is concerned about? Because we are not dealing with that here.

Mr. Reid: I understand that we are not on the Mines Inspection side here. I am talking Workplace Safety and Health inspectors.

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Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, I can reference last year, and again, the amount of resources devoted to training was similar, and I can indicate what key areas where the training dollars were assigned, and, of course, there is also some miscellaneous training costs associated with opportunities which present themselves that were unbudgeted or training opportunities which arise during the year.

The audit training was probably the area that took the majority of the dollars. There was less than $2,000 set aside for conference registrations. There were some U of W courses, some Red River Community College courses; U of M provided some training with the occupational safety and health certificate program, so the same level of resources were devoted last year. In addition to the conference registrations and the cost of courses, there was additional cost for transportation, food and lodging, which would be over and above the expenditures we made in the training program.

It seems to me that the member clearly is saying that he is feeling that there is some sort of a fairness issue here, that all staff are not accessing the same degree of training. That is certainly not my read of the situation, but we can review and see which people have been taking courses, and what courses they have been taking, and if there is a process we can put in place to see if anybody feels that they have not had the appropriate training, we can try and address that during the current year.

Mr. Reid: The issue here is, yes, in fairness, it is important but also to make sure that the skill level of the people that are performing the inspection duties is kept current. As you might--and I would hope you would want, as the minister responsible for the department, to make sure that the people have the necessary skills to allow them to do the jobs to the greatest possible skill level.

My sense, from the information that is coming to my attention, is that employees working for Workplace Safety and Health have been told that if they do not live in proximity to the city of Winnipeg that there is no money in the budget to have those people participate in some of the training programs that are being put on because there is additional cost obviously with respect to hotels and meals, et cetera, while these courses are put on, not just the course fee itself.

So what I am trying to establish here is whether or not every employee working for Workplace Safety and Health has had those opportunities to attend those courses and that they are not being disadvantaged because they do not live in the immediate vicinity of the capital region here. That is what I am trying to determine here. I want to make sure that every employee working for Workplace Safety and Health, no matter where they reside in the province of Manitoba, is given the same opportunity to acquire skills necessary to perform their jobs. I want to make sure that if they move from wherever they are in rural Manitoba to the city of Winnipeg, for example, they already possess those skills and they can fill in those jobs, if somebody from Winnipeg, for example, wants to move to rural Manitoba, that they possess those skills, they are interchangeable into those positions and that there is not a deficiency in skills because you reside outside of the city of Winnipeg.

I want to make sure that those skill levels are high, and I am being told that not all of the employees are given those opportunities to train. That is why I want to find out what programs were put on to upgrade the skill levels of Workplace Safety and Health officers, field officers, and to find out who participated in those programs, those training programs. That is the information I am seeking here.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I want to thank the member for that clarification. Certainly it is incumbent on myself, as minister, and senior staff to have the most talented and best-qualified staff that we can possibly have, and we have to do that within the resources that we assign to this part of the budget.

Training and staff development is an ongoing activity within every department, and I want to assure the member that we do not want to have two levels of training within the department, one for the city of Winnipeg and a less comprehensive or inferior one for rural Manitoba.

As the member probably knows, I represent a riding in rural Manitoba, and we feel well served by this government. My constituents, I believe, do not see themselves as second-class citizens, nor do the individuals who work for government who happen to live in western Manitoba. I think they are happy in the workforce and do a tremendous job for us.

I would point out that if the member is here to carry forward the case of an individual or a couple of individuals, there is a staff development committee with representation from staff within the branch, and there are opportunities there for input in terms of the needs that are seen by staff throughout the department. I would urge any staff who feel they have contributions to make in terms of direction on staff development to either participate as an active member of that committee or to have a discussion with anyone who is a member to have that input come into the department and into the branch, and I can assure you that they will have a sympathetic ear.

I know in my days in the teaching profession, often a lot of the ideas about professional development do bubble up from the grassroots or the staff level, and that would be the intent of the staff development committee, to enable people to have their views heard and put forward ideas that can be brought to management.

Mr. Reid: Well, I am not sure if I got a commitment there to provide some information back to me in that regard. I gave you some advance notice here from Tuesday. Today is Thursday, and I was hoping that the information would have been available here with respect to those programs, but if you do not have it here, I can understand that.

If you would endeavour to search out that information and provide it back to me, I would appreciate learning of practices within your department over the course of the last budget year and what your anticipation is for this budget year with respect to staff training across the board in Workplace Safety and Health and also to find out how many dollars are attached to your training programs last year and how many you anticipate will be part of your budget this year with respect to staff training.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I think I gave him some of that information. It is $33,000 that is attached to the training within this branch in this area. I did read into the record the types of training that took place. I gather what the member is looking for is the names of the individuals who accessed the various training programs that were offered last year, the individuals within the branch who participated in the various audit training and conferences and other activities that we had indicated earlier.

Mr. Reid: That would be the information that I would be seeking. Also, you mentioned $33,300 I think, or $33,000 with respect to training for this budget year. Can you tell me what we spent on training in the last budget year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I believe I indicated earlier that the budget line is similar this year to last year to the year previous.

Mr. Reid: Out of those training dollars, because I think you mentioned earlier in your comments that there would be some management training programs as well, can you tell me what courses, if any, the management of Workplace Safety and Health took part in in upgrading of skills over the course of the last year, and are there any anticipated for this budget year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: There is one activity planned for this year in terms of management training, and there will be across the department--it will be in the form of a retreat with training for senior staff, and the anticipated cost of that would be--and this is right across the department, not just the Workplace Safety and Health--in the area of $20,000.

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Mr. Reid: I appreciate knowing that information, but the question I had was with respect to Workplace Safety and Health, what training programs you had undertaken for the management staff in Workplace Safety, and also to find out what programs they participated in and what the costs of those training programs were in the course of the last budget year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: They will be participating in this. They represent about a quarter of the department and as a result, the costs for the retreat, they will, if you like, be assigned that portion of the costs.

This is something that is upcoming, will be held in the month of May, and again in the month of October. If the member is asking for more detail as to the curriculum and the actual training, I do not have that here, but we could provide the member with that at a later time.

Mr. Reid: So you are saying, because management comprises about a quarter of your staff--

Mr. Gilleshammer: No, I did not say that.

Mr. Reid: Then I misunderstood what the minister said because I thought he said that management was a quarter of the staff, therefore a quarter of the budget, and you wanted me to extrapolate that out. So perhaps the minister can clarify what he meant by that.

Mr. Gilleshammer: My reference was that Workplace Safety and Health were a part of the total management team. I indicated what the anticipated cost, this retreat and staff development, I believe will be led by University of Manitoba officials. As a result, I was trying to indicate to the member that Workplace Safety and Health were part of the larger departmental management group, and if you wanted to do the arithmetic they are a part of that expenditure to train senior management.

Mr. Reid: So if I understand you clearly then, because you used the term "a quarter," and I take it it is a quarter of all of the management staff for your department, and that there was a $20,000 cost attached to that, and therefore, if you do the mathematics on this, it is $5,000 training for the Workplace Safety and Health management people.

Mr. Gilleshammer: They are part of the management team and the staff. It may be even higher than a quarter of it, but I think you are interested in the Workplace Safety and Health group that we have before the committee now.

There will be individuals who work in this part of the department who are participating in a larger departmental initiative on training. I indicated it would be in the area of $20,000 for this initiative for management training which will be held partially in May and also, I believe, in the month of October. If you want to get into the fine detail of it, we can find out the exact numbers from Workplace Safety and Health who will be participating in this activity.

Mr. Reid: I am just trying to get an idea here, an understanding of what training takes place with respect to your field officers versus the management people within your department here. I did ask you a question earlier about what training programs the management of your Workplace Safety and Health Branch may have availed themselves of in the course of the past year and what costs were associated with that training, if any.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that last year we spent very little money on management training. In the coming year, that will be more of a priority, and I have indicated the time of that training and the approximate cost of that training. So this varies from year to year as it should. Again, departmental priorities will change, and last year where next to no money was spent on management training, this year some resources will be devoted to that.

Mr. Reid: Well, we keep going round and round here. I asked for a global dollar value on the training that you provided to your management staff over the course of the last year. It is a pretty straightforward question, and you said "very little." That was your indication. So if you have the information, I would appreciate receiving the dollar value that was associated with that.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The best advice I am getting at the moment is it would be in the neighbourhood of $1,000 Canadian.

Mr. Reid: Can you tell me if Mr. Bawden, Mr. Hildebrand and Ms. Fraser, who work in your department, have any of them taken training programs recently outside of the province of Manitoba?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Bawden has not. He will check and see if the other two individuals referenced were out of province on training initiatives, and when we have that information, I will be pleased to read it into the record.

Mr. Reid: Can you tell me, has Mr. Bawden ever participated in a training program at the University of Toronto?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told the answer is no.

Mr. Reid: Can you tell me if Ms. Fraser has ever attended conferences or training programs at Lake Louise?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told the answer is yes; it was two years ago.

Mr. Reid: Do you have the costs associated with those trainings?

Mr. Gilleshammer: My staff estimate it probably cost $2,000.

Mr. Reid: Has Mr. Bawden ever participated in training programs outside of the province for which you may have the costs?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Four years ago at Queen's University in Kingston, and it was approximately $13,000.

Mr. Reid: Thirteen thousand dollars for one individual to go and take some training. That is a pretty big dollar out of a budget of $33,000 for your whole Workplace Safety and Health Branch, and you say that is a number that goes on year after year. Can you tell me what type of training that involved?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Just for clarification, this did not come out of the training dollars in 1995. It was from another appropriation within the department. It was a management development training program offered at Queen's University.

Mr. Reid: Has Mr. Hildebrand ever participated in any training programs outside of this province, other than providing it perhaps as a facilitator or someone else involved in the actual conference or training itself?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that he has attended interprovincial conferences, and I suppose in the broad sense that is part of training.

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Mr. Reid: Can you provide the information with respect to that training and the cost associated with it?

Mr. Gilleshammer: How many years would you like us to go back on this? Is this 10 years or longer or shorter?

Mr. Reid: Since '95 would be sufficient, thank you.

Mr. Gilleshammer: We will go back into our archives and get that information for you.

Mr. Reid: When we met last, you talked about, I believe, one vacancy in Workplace Safety and Health. Can you tell me where that vacancy exists?

Mr. Gilleshammer: It is in the city of Flin Flon.

Mr. Reid: I may be incorrect in this, and you can correct me if I am wrong. Is there a vacancy currently existing in The Pas?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that that position was transferred to Flin Flon.

Mr. Reid: Can you tell me why that position was transferred from The Pas to Flin Flon and when that transfer took place?

Mr. Gilleshammer: We had a recent resignation there, so the transfer was recent. It is in the best judgment of the department the most appropriate place to have that individual to make the best use of the infrastructure and the needs of the department.

Mr. Reid: So the department has a mines inspector that is stationed in Flin Flon, and now you have transferred a Workplace Safety and Health officer to Flin Flon, leaving The Pas, which has a high-risk industry, without a Workplace Safety and Health field inspector in that particular jurisdiction. When the Flin Flon jurisdiction has mines as its primary industry and probably sole industry for that area and has in comparison little other high-risk industries, why would you transfer a Workplace Safety and Health field officer into a mines jurisdiction?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I leave the management of the department to my senior staff who will make those decisions where to best use the workforce that we have. If the member wants to give us advice from time to time on where we should deploy staff or how many staff we should have, that is his prerogative, but in the professional judgment of our management staff, the position that was transferred would be most effective working out of the Flin Flon office. I would point out to him that in northern Manitoba, individuals who work for us there simply do not leave their home and go to the office and do their work in the next few blocks, that they are covering a good part of northern Manitoba.

So the decision made by management within the department was that with this resignation and the moving of this staff to Flin Flon, where we have a better office infrastructure would be advantageous, and given the fact that the work is spread out over a fairly significant portion of the province, in the best professional judgment of management, this was the place where that particular staff year should be lodged, and I certainly support that.

Mr. Reid: I am well aware of mines inspectors and Workplace Safety and Health officers spelling each other off if one has to go away for duties elsewhere. It does not make sense to me, when The Pas is a logging industry area and sawmill and pulp and paper, which is a high-risk occupation based on Workers Compensation statistics, and yet you have now taken the officer out of The Pas and transferred that person, that job description and function to Flin Flon, which is essentially a mining community.

They have referenced their own existence as a single-industry community, which is mining. So I do not understand the logic of the department in transferring that individual to a mining community, when there is little if any other high-risk activity taking place that a mines inspector could not cover. Now you are going to have additional costs for that individual who is now stationed as the Workplace Safety and Health officer in Flin Flon, who is no doubt going to have to travel back to other areas to do inspections of those other work sites in the logging community.

Will that officer now have to travel to The Pas to do regular inspections of the logging industry and the pulp and paper and saw mill operations that are taking place in The Pas, or who is going to cover those responsibilities now? If that is the case, what will be the travel and accommodations budget that is built into this year's budget to allow that individual to do that job when they had normally been stationed in that community in the first place?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I think I gave the member the information a couple of minutes ago, but I will repeat it, that the activities that will be the responsibility of the person in this staff year will cover much of northern Manitoba and that logging takes place certainly in The Pas but probably in the Thompson area, Gillam, Cranberry Portage, and many of our staff officers in the North travel as part of the way they do business. So wherever this person has his or her desk, travel will be part of the costs of this person in this staff year doing business in the North.

By the way, that is not news. This is something that happens in rural and northern Manitoba all the time. I guess what this comes down to is the member is questioning the judgment of the management team of the department who in their good judgment felt that this individual and this staff year would perform, given the office infrastructure and the support staff available in a different location.

The member is saying that he disagrees. Well, so be it. It is certainly the decision of our management team that this was an appropriate transfer of a staff year that was vacant.

Mr. Reid: The other part of my question was dealing with the budget allocations for the individual, because there are going to be costs that are associated now. I have had the opportunity to travel to northern Manitoba within the last year and to visit many of the operations, the high-risk occupations. I have had the opportunity to talk with the people of northern Manitoba who work in these industries. I do not understand the logic unless--are you amalgamating the offices and you are eliminating one office, so you do not have the overhead cost in The Pas and you are putting people into Flin Flon?

Now, that officer is going to have to have travel costs to The Pas, because no doubt that will still be part of the territory, and what you may have used in your accommodations costs is now going to be eaten up with travel costs. Not only that, you have the travel time that is involved for people to go to these communities and inspect.

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I do not understand the logic, why you are taking somebody out of a high-risk area here. I know the inspectors spell each other off. The mines inspector would go in and do other inspections when the electrical inspector is away from Thompson, for example. They spell each other off to make sure that, if there is an incident that happens, somebody is there to represent the department to undertake an immediate involvement of the department in an incident.

So what happens now, the person who was in The Pas before--the job was transferred to Flin Flon--is now going to have to have the travel time to get to The Pas, if there is an incident, when that person was normally stationed in that community before. So somebody is going to have to do that travel if you have an incident. It is in a high-risk occupation; you have said so yourself. So I do not understand the logic here. You are nickel-and-diming by amalgamating the offices and taking somebody out of The Pas, when you had somebody who could cover the Flin Flon industrial area to start with, and now you are leaving The Pas, I believe, at risk by not having an officer there.

Mr. Gilleshammer: There were travel costs involved with the staff year that was being referenced and there will continue to be travel costs. In the opinion of the management, there should be no appreciable change in that. Logging takes place through much of northern Manitoba. He might spend a little time with the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), who would know that. Logging takes place not only in The Pas but across northern Manitoba, and whether you travel from Flin Flon to The Pas or The Pas to Flin Flon, there is certainly a cost and it is probably identical. There is logging in many parts of northern Manitoba where this individual will have to go. The travel budget is flat. There are resources dedicated to that.

The savings to the department is in the wind-down of an office in The Pas, and this individual will be stationed in Flin Flon where there are other resources that will make their job probably easier. I gather we are coming to a point where we disagree about the location of a particular staff year. In the wisdom of the departmental staff, this will work in Flin Flon with additional supports available. If the member disagrees, well, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Mr. Reid: We will have to agree to disagree, because I think this is shortchanging those working people in The Pas and Swan River, who had that field officer available in relatively short periods of time to inspect workplace accidents or any other incidents for which the officer might be involved. Now you have extra travel time from Flin Flon to The Pas for that incident investigation. So I am not sure; yes, you may have minimized your overhead costs or your office costs associated with that amalgamation, but I am not sure that is in the best interests of the people who are working in the high-risk industries in Swan River and The Pas.

When I had asked questions with respect to Poulin's, on Tuesday of this week, you indicated you were going to find out some information with respect to the legality of the canisters, the one-litre canisters, the 408 of them that were used wherein there was methyl bromide poisoning of two employees of Poulin's. Has any investigation taken place? Have you done a search of the information with respect to the legality of those canisters and can you report to this committee?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That work is currently underway.

Mr. Reid: Then I take it we will have to wait for that information to come out with the package of information that comes forward from the department, perhaps a number of weeks from now then.

Mr. Gilleshammer: When the work is completed, we will be able to provide the member with that information.

Mr. Reid: When your field officers are located within--I am going to narrow the focus here a bit--the Capital Region, they have duties obviously that take them to areas. How do you compensate for these employees, if there is parking associated or other costs of transportation? Did they used to have parking passes available to them to allow them to perform their duties and, if so, do they still have those passes?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Parking expenses are filed as part of expense claims.

Mr. Reid: So the individual has to take it out of their pocket first and then get reimbursed.

Mr. Gilleshammer: That would be true. If they put a quarter in the parking meter, then they can claim that later on as part of their parking expenses.

Mr. Reid: So the minister is saying that, by putting a quarter in, you get 15 minutes parking time and they do 15-minute inspections. Is that what you are telling me?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I did not say anything of the sort. You are being foolish. You asked me if they are reimbursed for parking expenses, and I said yes.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would like to remind the members of the committee that any comments should be made through the Chair, and I would like that to be taken into consideration. [interjection] We are not getting into a challenge here, I hope, but I would remind all members of this committee, including the minister, if that is acceptable to the committee. Now, achieving that, I would appreciate if this decorum was continued on for the rest of these Estimates.

The honourable member for Transcona, to continue your questioning.

Mr. Reid: Can you tell me, since the parking passes obviously--from what you are saying--are not available to these employees anymore, these employees have to take the money from their own pocket to perform their duties and then ask for reimbursement from the department? Is that accurate?

Mr. Gilleshammer: That is correct, or if they are going to spend, anticipate expending more money, they can get an advance.

Mr. Reid: So the parking passes are gone. An officer has to go to an incident which may require many hours of investigation, and the individual then has to run out to the meter and plug dollars into the meter to make sure that they do not get a ticket for their personal vehicles, and that the parking pass which would have allowed them parking in the past has now been taken away from them inconveniencing them during the performance of their duties, so you are nickel-and-diming these people while they are doing their jobs.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer is that I guess our staff are subject to the same by-laws as you and I would be if we are parking in the city at a meter or in a parking lot that they pay their parking fee, and they can claim that on their expense account. I am certainly hoping that the time devoted to doing expense accounts is not detracting from the good work that they are hired to do.

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Mr. Reid: What happens if these individuals are at an incident, an accident investigation, obviously there for more than an hour, if they get a ticket while they are in the performance of their job, who covers that ticket?

Mr. Gilleshammer: We have not encountered that at this time, but I believe they would be subject to the same penalties as you and I or my staff if they get a parking ticket, that they have to pay it or I guess if they want to go through the process and fight City Hall, maybe they can make a compelling case to not have to do it. But here in the city where there are parking meters or parking lots that staff are using, they do get reimbursed for that expense. Staff are not aware of anybody who has broken the law in exceeding their time at a meter and have had to pay a ticket. As far as I know, the system is working. They are subject to the same rules and regulations as you and I are when we use public parking spaces.

Mr. Reid: Are you saying then that the department--if one of your officers is in the field doing an incident investigation or in the normal performance of their duties doing an audit or doing a random inspection, if the individual encounters a period of time that is more than the amount for which that meter allows--and some of them only allow an hour, some allow two--and the individual doing that job, because you have taken away the parking pass that would allow them to do their job without having to worry about running out and plugging more money into the parking meter, you have caused the individual employee, your staff in your department to have to worry about running out to plug a meter instead of tending to the duties for which they were hired to perform, that they now have to keep it in the back of their minds, because you have taken away that parking pass?

You may think it is a small item, but it means they have to interrupt the investigations under which they are participating or leading. I do not understand--

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I have indicated that remarks--and I am saying this to the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) for the benefit of the committee--that you are again straying away from the aspect of making remarks through the Chair. I do not want to get into a confrontation here with the member for Transcona and the minister, so if the member for Transcona would please put the remarks through the Chair rather than directly at the minister.

The honourable member for Transcona, to continue with your questions, please.

Mr. Reid: Mr. Chairperson, I have always put my remarks through the Chair. I am not sure how you interpret it, but my intent has always been to place them through the Chair. If you want me to put those exact words on the record, I am willing to do that.

Mr. Chairperson, through you, to the minister and his staff, I am asking my questions here today. I think the decision that they have made with respect to the removal of the parking pass from the individuals that are performing this job is again another nickel-and-dime decision, disadvantaging the people that are doing the work within the department.

You have to interrupt your inspection activities to go out and worry about plugging money into a meter. You have to interrupt an investigation that is taking place. You may think it is small potatoes, Mr. Chairperson, because that is the way you want me to address it. You may think that this is small potatoes, but it interrupts the activities of the department. You have enough money, $13,000 and other dollars associated with sending people away for training programs, but you have to take away a $40 parking pass from people that are doing their job. Where is your logic here? I do not understand the logic that you use.

Yes, the training may have been beneficial or useful to the individuals doing those jobs. I am not denying that, because I do not know what training programs they took, but you spend large dollars in one area and you nickel-and-dime in other areas, so I do not understand the logic of the decisions that are being made in these regards. You are looking for ways to shortchange the people, the field officers, probably the most important people in this particular part of your department that are doing the actual inspections. You are shortchanging those people in the performance of their duties.

I do not understand the logic of why you make those decisions, and that is what I am driving at here. That is what information I am seeking from the minister, through you, Mr. Chairperson. That is why I want the minister to explain why you have taken away those parking passes, creating problems for the people in the field who do the inspections.

Mr. Gilleshammer: I want to, through you, assure my honourable friend that all the members of our department are important, that they perform important tasks, and that they do valuable work for the department and for the people of Manitoba. He may choose to think that some are more important than others, and, in one sense, that is probably true. There may be more responsibilities, but we have many, many staff that perform important jobs.

The member is really asking a hypothetical question about what if. We are not aware of any cases where someone had to interrupt their workday and hamper some work that they were doing to put more money in the meter, but the decision was made by management that there were reasons for going in this direction. The work is being done; members are being reimbursed if they have out-of-pocket expenses. The problem that the member is referencing seems to be in his own mind and certainly not lodged with departmental staff.

I recently met in a group called joint council with Mr. Olfert and members of the MGEU where they have an opportunity to raise issues in government with myself and two other ministers. This certainly was not the topic that was on the list or their minds, and we did have ample time to cover a short agenda. I did ask if there were other issues out there within the MGEU that we could discuss and help people with. Parking was not an issue, and the onerous task of filling out requests for reimbursement for out-of-pocket expenses did not come up.

We are going to meet again soon. I would offer to the member that I would be pleased to put this on our agenda with the MGEU and see if this is a widespread concern that we should be dealing with at the joint council table.

Mr. Reid: I hope the minister does ask that question of Mr. Olfert and others, because it has been drawn to my attention that this is an action which impedes the performance of the work. It is obvious here that the minister is not willing to give a commitment. Should any of the employees that are field officers that are performing the work on behalf of the department and the government of Manitoba encounter or receive a parking ticket, the minister is saying that the department will not cover that expense. It is left up to the individuals who were performing the duties that the government requires them to do, that the minister and his department will not cover the expenses for those employees should they receive a parking ticket, for example.

The minister knows well the costs associated would be nearly the price of your parking pass for a month, which is the price of the ticket that the individual would have to pay. So for me, it is money that would have been well spent, except that now it is not coming out of the department's pocket, it is coming out of the individual's pocket if they get a parking ticket.

So what I am looking for here from the department, if an individual performs the duties and they receive a parking ticket because they are performing their duties, Mr. Chairperson, that the individuals, should they submit that to the department, will receive some reimbursement for those costs if they can demonstrate, legitimately demonstrate that they were performing their duties and they did not want to pull away from those duties to go out and have to put more money into a parking meter, when the parking passes used to be available for them. It used allow them to do their jobs unimpeded.

That is what I am looking for here, some flow to allow them to continue to perform their jobs to the best of their abilities. That is the commitment I am looking for from the minister.

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Mr. Gilleshammer: My commitment would be that we treat members of the Government Employees' Union all the same, and I am sure that my honourable friend would agree with that. But if he is asking that we have a general policy in Manitoba, that the people of Manitoba pay for the parking tickets of government employees, and that is a policy that he is espousing and that an NDP government would bring in--it probably was not brought in in their last time in government, because they had other important work to do--but I do not think that is what the people of Manitoba want, that we have a policy where all parking tickets are paid by the people of Manitoba and the government of Manitoba, should government employees during their workday receive a parking ticket.

I think they would--in fact, I will commit to put that on the agenda for joint council when I meet with Mr. Olfert and the people he brings with him to the next joint council meeting. My special assistant, I see, is busy taking notes and will be sure to put that on the agenda, but I feel that most employees of government would like to be treated just like you and I, that if we, for whatever reason, get a parking ticket and we are the driver of that vehicle, then we are responsible for it. That is the way that I have always operated, and I will even confer with other ministers to see if this is an issue bubbling up within other departments, that the paying of parking tickets is something--in fact, maybe it should be negotiated and put in the master agreement. That might be the fairest way of doing it so that this would be known to all employees, if we should go that direction, but again it is something that has not been brought to my attention before and something that I am prepared to discuss at the next joint council meeting with Mr. Olfert.

Mr. Reid: Well, the minister can put those words on the record if he wants to, and he can take them out of context if he wants to, Mr. Chairperson. That is his right to do that. He can misconstrue my comments if he wants to. That is his right to do that. It does not mean that they are any more accurate.

I never said you pay parking tickets of all government employees. What I said here was that if you have got people performing work, and we are talking here, Mr. Chairperson, and I hope you would have called the minister to order on this, because he was wandering away to Government Services here--we are talking about Workplace Safety and Health here--which you did not do, and I note it for the record, that this minister says that when he has got people in his department, Workplace Safety and Health Branch, doing work, and if they encounter additional expenses, he is not prepared to cover those expenses for those people. That is what he is saying here. He wants them to interrupt an incident investigation, an accident investigation to go out and do something like plugging dollar bills into a parking meter instead of tending to the duties, the inspection duties, for which they were hired to do. That is what he is telling me here and that he does not care if these people, these employees, these Manitobans that pay taxes, have to pay that extra $35 or $40 out of their own pocket. That is what he is telling me here, because he has taken away that parking pass from them.

He might think this is small potatoes, but it is an inconvenience for the people and interrupts the inspection duties of those people performing those jobs. That is all I ask, that you have some consideration for the people that are doing that job and make sure that they can do it uninterrupted and file the reports necessary so that corrective action or education programs can take place within the department. That is all I am asking here. It is something very simple. You are nickel and diming the people that are doing the jobs here.

Now, if he wants to go to the broader general council and he wants to have his special assistant taking notes, it is on Hansard anyway, he does not have to take notes. He can just pull it right off the Hansard. If he wants to misconstrue my words, he is welcome to do that anytime he wants. I will defend the actions and the words that I have used here today and any other day for that matter.

My intent is to make sure that the people do their job uninterrupted, to make sure that the accident investigations take place, the audits take place, and the random inspections take place without having to worry about getting a parking ticket and leaving the site perhaps of an accident investigation.

That is what I am after here, not for you to try and make some political mileage out of that, but if you want to do that, be my guest. I am more than willing to defend the words I have used and the actions I have used to try and make sure that these people can protect the public of Manitoba, not play the political games that this minister is playing here.

So if you want to take that to the council, be my guest. My job here is to make sure that the people can do their job, for which the taxpayers are paying them, for which you are charged with the responsibility as the minister. That is what I am looking for here.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I do not want, Mr. Chairman, the member to make light of joint council. If this is a major issue in the mind of the member, it seems to me that that would be the appropriate place to take it, and we can discover by discussions at that level whether this is a government-wide problem and whether the remedy should come through negotiations.

Joint council, I find, is a very valuable exercise, and I do not mind adding items to the agenda that my honourable friend brings to the table. I am sure that members of the joint council would see that as a natural extension of these Estimates process. If the member for Transcona brings up important issues that need to be debated and discussed, that is good place to do it.

I would point out to him something about the parking pass. It allowed employees to park for the duration of the meter. If it was a one-hour meter or a two-hour meter, that parking pass was only good for that duration. After that, those employees would be ticketed. So if they do make the appropriate adjustments to the meter, then they would be allowed to park there for the equivalent length of time as the parking pass would have allowed them, and they would be subject to a ticket whether they were putting coin in the meter or whether they had a parking pass. So that is a factor that my honourable friend may want to take into consideration in his thinking about this subject.

Mr. Reid: We could go on at some length about this, Mr. Chairperson, but I think I have put enough comments on the record about this to indicate my thoughts about how the employees doing the Workplace Safety and Health duties and responsibilities are being treated and that I do not think that that is appropriate. What the minister is saying here is that he wants to include this in the general negotiations for all of the government employees versus the Workplace Safety and Health people that I am talking about here.

Now, if he wants to talk about general contractual arrangements with the MGEU, that is his prerogative to do so. What I am interested in here is about how the Workplace Safety and Health people are being treated in the performance of their duties. This is my sole purpose here.

I think what is being failed to be recognized here is that there are individual needs in the performances of the duties of the people that are doing the job here versus the overall civil service, and I think that is what I am driving at here, is that the department used to recognize that there were individual needs, and that is no longer the case. You have taken it out of your departmental budget Estimates now, and you have put it, as the minister is saying, back into civil service negotiations with the MGEU.

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I am not sure that is the appropriate way to handle the matter, but if the minister wants to pursue that course of action, I am sure he is more than able to do that. But my goal here is to make sure that where you had that service available, to recognize individual departmental needs, that that had been part of your budget, and you have now taken it out, and you are saying you want to turn it over to civil service negotiations. I am not sure that is appropriate, but I guess that is your decision as the minister.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, this is just an attempt to satisfy the questions that the member is asking, so I am going to say this again. I said it a few minutes ago, and I am not sure it was heard, and maybe it would give my honourable friend a better understanding.

The parking pass only allowed employees to park for the duration of the meter. If it was a one-hour meter, then the parking pass was good for one hour, and if that was exceeded, the car or vehicle would be ticketed. Similarly, if it was a two-hour meter, the parking pass would be only valid and applicable for the two hours, and if the car remained there beyond that, it would be ticketed. So maybe that would help clarify the matter, and the member would have a better understanding of this.

Mr. Reid: I leave the comments that I have made to this point to let them stand for themselves, Mr. Chairperson. I think I have explained it clearly enough.

When we last met here, I had asked that the minister perhaps have his staff available to go back to the desktop computer system and that I had some questions with respect to that particular initiative. Now, the minister was going to undertake to do some investigations, and perhaps that information will be coming forward in the near future, but I believe Workplace Safety and Health probably does, at least from my perception of the department, a fair amount of data logging and that you keep records of accidents, statistics, and you also have to provide information and direction or some advice to the Justice department.

I take it then that you are utilizing data loggers within your department to keep that particular information, and I want to know, on your desktop management system that you are moving to or have moved to, is that part of the service that is going to be provided by SHL as part of their computer systems giving service to government, or is that going to be an additional cost?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer is no.

Mr. Reid: So there will be no additional cost to the department as a result of the data loggers services that would be required by the department to keep track of the information. There are no additional costs associated with that for the department in addition to what they are paying.

Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer is no.

Mr. Reid: Can you tell me: field officers, I take it, are going to, because they are in the field a fair amount of their time, are they going to be provided with laptop computers to assist them with the performance of their job, and, if so, are they going to be held responsible for those pieces of equipment?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Those field officers all have a laptop and a printer.

Mr. Reid: The minister referenced, I believe, the last time we were talking about this matter, about the equipment that is currently within the department. I am not sure if I have asked this question, but perhaps I can leave it with the minister. Can you give me an indication of the equipment that was in your department that had been or is currently owned by the government, the disposition of that equipment and the age of that equipment, so that I might have an idea of whether or not we have current pieces of computer equipment, and what will happen to that equipment as a result of this contract that the government has signed with SHL?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I can tell you that the disposition of equipment will be done on a government-wide basis, not on a departmental basis.

Mr. Reid: The second part of the question was a listing dealing with the pieces of equipment that you had internal to your operations. Do you have some new pieces of equipment, as governments usually try to do some capital purchases to keep somewhat current of technology to assist in the performance of the job; a listing of the pieces of equipment that you had in the department at the time Systemhouse took over?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I think it is fair to say that our department, like other departments, has a full range and gamut of equipment, some more modern than others. We will, of course, have an inventory of that equipment, and we can provide that to the member at a later date.

Mr. Reid: I would appreciate it if the minister could provide an inventory of the equipment that was contained within the department operations and also whether or not the equipment that you are going to be receiving in your department is going to be current technology available on the market or whether or not some of this equipment is going to be dated in its technology and, in fact, second generation equipment.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I have committed to providing an inventory of equipment that we will no longer be using, and we will also provide some information on incoming equipment.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Just for the record, I want to advise the committee that the questions that are being posed with regard to this are out of order with respect to Workplace Safety and Health. I would just remind the member and the minister that we are on line 11.2.(f) Workplace Safety and Health (1) and (2). If the committee wishes to move on from there and to deal with the questions on that or deal with the questions specifically referencing Workplace Safety and Health, then we can continue on with that.

Mr. Reid: Mr. Chairperson, I am just trying to get an idea here of the equipment that is being utilized by the staff within the department, which would include Workplace Safety and Health people who make up a fairly large component of the overall operations of the Department of Labour, not to isolate it just strictly to those particular people but to find out what plan is in place with respect to a relatively large expenditure when you compare it to the departmental budget itself.

I have no other questions in this area, Mr. Chairperson. I am prepared to move on to Occupational Health.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 11.2.(f) Workplace Safety and Health (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,531,100 and (2) Other Expenditures $786,900 were passed on April 9.

We will now move on to line 11.2.(g) Occupational Health (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Mr. Reid: There has been some activity recently dealing with the former company of Federal Pioneer Electric, dealing with cancer clusters. It has been indicated that there was not a problem dealing with particular investigations into matters such as this where you have occupational diseases or diseases arising out of a particular type of occupation.

Has the department or is the department giving any consideration to the establishment of an occupational diseases panel that may be beyond the ad hoc activities that are taking place within the Workers Compensation Board where they make individual decisions? Is the department undertaking any occupational disease panel structure or incorporating it into your activities, so that diseases such as cancer that are occurring in the former Federal Pioneer employees would have some investigation attached to them instead of leaving that just strictly up to the responsibility of the Workers Compensation Board?

Because the Workplace Safety and Health or Occupational Health Branch, I believe, would be charged with some responsibility in a preventative fashion, this would be more appropriate to be done under the Occupational Health Branch. Do you have any plans or are you undertaking any activity to establish such a panel?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Not at this time.

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Mr. Reid: Do you not see a need, considering the information that is currently available using the Federal Pioneer example, that we have a fairly large cluster of employees, current and former, that have now encountered cancers as a result of occupational exposure to hazardous materials, that it would be incumbent upon Occupational Health Branch to undertake investigations in matters such as this, and that therefore a panel, an occupational diseases panel, would be useful to the department?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Those investigations are currently done by the department, and we have a Chief Occupational Medical Officer who provides us with the guidance and leadership in that area.

Mr. Reid: Can you tell me: are there any secondments or vacancies out of the Occupational Health Branch?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told there are none.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 11.2. Labour Programs (g) Occupational Health (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $221,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $39,600--pass.

11.2. (h) Mines Inspection (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $533,100.

Mr. Reid: Because you had indicated in the past that there was going to be a 10 percent increase in the number of inspections, can you tell me the number of inspections occurred in this last budget year?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, we did increase our mines inspections by about that number. The raw data is not available today, but I am assured that we can provide that information for the member.

Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair

Mr. Reid: In your document, in the Supplementary Estimates document, you have indicated that there is an allocation for severance pay included in that, as well as vacation pay. Are you anticipating that there will be any retirements as a result or separations of service this coming year from the Mines Inspections Branch?

Mr. Gilleshammer: No one has declared that, but employees make those decisions on an individual basis.

Mr. Reid: Mines inspection is obviously crucial to the prevention of accidents occurring. Mining industry is a high-risk occupation. I have indicated my comments with respect to the mines inspection officer when we met last with respect to HBM&S and the court case. The branch itself undertakes to do inspections. Do you do audits, as well, of the particular mining operations throughout Manitoba, and if so, can you tell me the number of audits that you would perform?

Mr. Gilleshammer: We have not been using audits, but we have historically had a higher ratio of mines inspectors to cover off that industry as opposed to other sectors within our jurisdiction.

Mr. Reid: I am going to try and ask this question in as sensitive a way as possible because I do not want to discourage people from running for elected office. We have a mines inspector, who, I believe, is stationed out of Thompson, who is also an elected member of the community. In situations where the individual has to be away on elected duties or responsibilities, what process do we have in place to provide some inspection coverage or incident investigation should the individual be away for a period of time?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, running for elected office, of course, is a pretty noble calling, and I agree with my honourable friend from Transcona that we would not want to discourage anybody. Other than being a member of Parliament or an MLA, in most cases in Manitoba it is part-time work.

I guess there are exceptions with city councillors in Winnipeg but mostly across the province, if you are a member of a school board or a town council or a municipal council, it is something that you do in your off hours. I know that council meetings can be called sort of on an emergency basis, and people have to make their arrangements with their local employer. I think government employees have always been part of that, and they usually do that on vacation days or compensatory time days. Whatever arrangements that they would make for holidays would be similar to what they do when they have municipal business or school board business that they have to attend to.

Mr. Reid: Is there someone who would cover the duties and responsibility of the mines inspector in the Thompson area? Because mining is a high-risk occupation and accidents happen unfortunately, I would like to see that number significantly reduced and the fatalities eliminated. But the reality of life is that these happen, the accidents happen. If an individual is away, who covers the responsibilities? Do you bring in a mines inspector from another jurisdiction to come in and assume those responsibilities in the interim? What process do you have in place to make sure that someone is available to do those inspections and to do the incident investigation?

Mr. Gilleshammer: If the honourable member is referring to a specific individual in a specific community, in that community we happen to have two mines inspectors, so there would always be one on duty.

Mr. Reid: The minister mentioned that the individual mines inspector has other elected duties to perform. So that the time that is taken by the individual is something separate from his normal duties and that, since the mines inspector's job is a full-time responsibility, full-time activities would be occurring there. You do not log in any way I guess or ensure that the inspection duties are actually taking place. I mean, how do you keep track of what is occurring in situations like this?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Time taken away from the workplace for the duties of elected office are duly noted.

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Mr. Reid: By the department? The department kind of keeps an eye on what is taking place with respect to those activities to make sure that if you--obviously if there is a requirement to have two inspectors there, the province, the taxpayer is receiving value for the dollar here, that two inspectors are available for duties on a full-time basis?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, they are duly noted by the department.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): Item 11.2.(h) Mines Inspection (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $533,100--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $185,200--pass, for a subtotal of $718,300.

11.2.(j) Employment Standards (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,823,100.

Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me: is the Employment Standards branch involved or participating in a survey of students, perhaps throughout the province, searching out work history for individuals in this age and grade classification, Grades 9 to 11?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I would like to introduce Dave Dyson, who is executive director, joining us at the table. All of these complicated civil service titles kind of have always baffled me. The answer is yes.

Mr. Reid: Can you provide me with perhaps a copy of the survey questionnaire that you will be sending out to the students? Is this taking place in every high school, junior high in the province of Manitoba? Is this being done in conjunction with the Department of Education? What process are you following in these matters, and are you doing this in co-operation or consultation with other provinces?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The answer to the last question is yes; the second last question is yes, and the instrument is still being developed.

Mr. Reid: What is the intent or the purpose of the survey?

Mr. Gilleshammer: To collect valuable information that will assist us in doing our jobs.

Mr. Reid: In what fashion will it assist you in doing the jobs? Are you going to inquire with respect to whether or not these individuals are aware of permits that the employer may have taken out allowing them to work? What is the purpose of the information that you are going to be gathering? What are you going to do with this information?

Mr. Gilleshammer: In a broad sense, it gives us a snapshot of the realities that exist within the province of Manitoba in relation to this particular age classification.

Mr. Reid: How is this particular survey initiated? Is there a reason why you are undertaking this activity at this time?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, this has been raised at the international level. It has been raised at the national level and certainly across our country by organizations and groups, and it is, I believe, incumbent upon us to have accurate and good information.

Mr. Reid: I think you mentioned, if I understood correctly, that other provinces may be participating in this type of a survey as well. Can you give me an indication of what other provinces?

Mr. Gilleshammer: To our knowledge, this is of primary concern to the western provinces at this point in time.

Mr. Reid: Then I take it for the department to undertake this type of activity, you must have some idea that there are a significant number of young people within the province under the age of 16 who are working in the workforce, and if that is the case, can you give me an idea of the number of permits that would have been issued for individuals under the age of 16 to allow them to work?

Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told there were in the area of 500 permits last fiscal year.

Mr. Reid: How does this number 500 compare with prior years?

Mr. Gilleshammer: It appears to be a relatively consistent and constant number.

Mr. Reid: Can you give me some kind of an indication on the types of activities for which these permits were issued, the type of industry, for example, or occupation that these permits would have been issued for? Is there a breakdown?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The thinking is that it is most common in the hospitality industry.

Mr. Reid: Are all of these students or young people under the age of 16 that you are going to be surveying, these are through the school systems, through all the junior and high schools in the province? Is that the extent of the survey? Are you going to be selective in your survey, and can you provide details with respect to where you are going to be surveying?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Our intention is to do a relative sample, and the details of that have not been worked out as yet.

Mr. Reid: So are you going to be sampling by region, sampling by community size, sampling by some other criteria which I have not mentioned here? Can you give me an idea of what you are going to use as a basis for your sampling?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The actual details of the sample have not been worked out yet, but I can assure the member that we want to do the most appropriate sample which will give us the best information to work with.

Mr. Reid: Would it be possible for you to indicate when you anticipate that the survey sheet that you are going to be preparing or you say you are preparing will be available, so that a copy may be available for us to see?

Mr. Gilleshammer: The intent is to do the sample the current school year, and this is dependent on certain work being done by individuals who are taking responsibility for this initiative.

Mr. Reid: Who is going to be responsible for collecting and going through the data? Is it going to be the Employment Standards branch, or is there someone else that is going to be charged with this responsibility?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Someone outside the department has been contracted to do this.

Mr. Reid: Can you tell us who has been contracted?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Someone from the University of Manitoba who is involved in labour studies.

Mr. Reid: Is there a cost associated with this and can you tell us what that cost is?

Mr. Gilleshammer: It will be spread over three fiscal years, and this year it might cost us around $15,000.

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Mr. Reid: So a $15,000 cost this year, and can you indicate for me what the cost will be in the second and third years of this study, and is it a student from the U of M labour studies or is it a professor?

Mr. Gilleshammer: It is a professor at the University of Manitoba, and it is estimated over three years it might range upwards of $40,000.

Mr. Reid: Can you indicate to us who the professor is?

Mr. Gilleshammer: A professor by the name of Mr. Gonick.

Mr. Reid: The question I asked earlier with respect to the survey sheet when it is developed, I take it it will be in a short period of time. If you are going to get the document ready for distribution to your sample area before the end of the school year and have it returned in that period of time, you would have to have it developed fairly quickly. There is only about two and a half months left. I anticipate you will have that document ready for distribution fairly shortly, and I am wondering if it is possible to get a sample of that particular document.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the member is correct, and as soon as we have a final copy of it, I would be pleased to share it with my honourable friend.

Mr. Reid: I look forward to receiving that information.

Does the department, then, with the results that come back, and I know this may be somewhat hypothetical in the sense that we do not know what the data will be yet, I take it that there will be a report coming back to the department. Do you anticipate that the department would be contemplating any further actions with respect to this, or is this something that is just for general knowledge of the government?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I do not want to prejudge the results of the survey but, when we have the results, it will give us a snapshot of the realities that are out there, and we would be able to make appropriate decisions at that time.

Mr. Reid: I look forward to the information coming from the minister with respect to this survey. I am not sure how widely it is known in other jurisdictions with respect to this survey, but in my searches I cannot find other jurisdictions who are aware of this activity taking place, so I am not sure how the other western provinces are involved in this, at least through my contacts on this matter.

Is there going to be a sharing of the information taking place between provincial jurisdictions, if it is taking place in western Canada, so that we might have an understanding how we compare or stand with respect to those jurisdictions?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I can indicate that the survey is being developed here in Manitoba, but the initiative is being led by the Deputy Minister of Labour from the Province of Saskatchewan. There is a group called the Canadian Association of Administrators of Labour Legislation, CAALL, and the deputy ministers from across the western provinces will, I am sure, see that the initiative is carried forward and share the information amongst themselves and be in a position with that up-to-date knowledge to make recommendations to governments.

Mr. Reid: We are talking about youth here in the workforce, and the minister references that the department issues I guess on average 500 permits or thereabouts on an annual basis. I did not know that the number was that high, and the minister references, Mr. Chairperson, that in the hospitality industry, I think he said.

I have received a number of calls of late dealing with the hospitality industry, in fact more specifically dealing with some restaurants within the city of Winnipeg here, where we have our young people in the province, from what I am being told, being taken advantage of.

I do not want to put the names on the public record here at this time, pending some further investigation, and I know the department has been fairly diligent in lending some assistance in past when I have raised matters such as this, so I will provide the names of the particular establishments to Mr. Dyson after this committee concludes.

But I just want to reference that young people are being asked to go to work and not to punch in, in some locations, just to be told to be on standby in case the workload picks up at a couple of establishments that I am aware of, which I do not think is fair to these young people. I mean, they have lives too, and if they are going to be called in by their employer the least they could do is be allowed to punch in and be assigned some duties to be working.

I am also told that these individuals are being asked to stay after hours when the business closes its operations for the day, which would be in many cases in the early morning hours, and that they are being instructed to clean up after their shifts are concluded. Yet they are receiving no pay for that additional time in which they are working, in some cases up to two hours and perhaps slightly longer, which I think is contrary to the act itself.

I am also told that in some cases young people are not receiving pay stubs for their work, Mr. Chairperson, and that they have no way of knowing what deductions are being withheld from their particular pay. They are not receiving, I am told, in one particular instance not receiving holiday pay or vacation pay as is required under the act and that where they do work after midnight in another circumstance, they are also not receiving pay or overtime pay for those hours.

So I will draw it to the attention of Mr. Dyson after this committee concludes the names of the particular operations and that perhaps the branch can investigate these matters, because we do not want to discourage or do things--to make sure that our youth of our province who are entering the workforce are not being taken advantage of. I suspect that by far the majority of employers in the province are fair employers, but there are from time to time cases that do come to our attention that do require some investigation. I hope the department will undertake that investigation.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Chairman, I know that staff will be responsive to the information that is brought forward by my honourable friend. In addition to that, I would encourage him to meet with the Manitoba Restaurant Association. I know that he is going to read this later, but he might want to listen. I would encourage him to meet with the Manitoba Restaurant Association who have a professional organization that I think annually puts on an event for members of the Legislature, but they do have an office here in the city of Winnipeg. I am sure that they would be interested in the information brought forward by the honourable member, because sometimes these are issues of education and sometimes they are issues of omission. I know that they have an executive director in an office, and they, I am sure, would be interested to hear the comments of the member and to get the information that he has compiled.

They probably have the best opportunity to effect change within the industry by the in-service work they do and the meetings that they have. I would really encourage him to make contact with that organization and allow them to, from their point of view, remedy some of the situations that he references, because that is part of their reason for being, is to have a healthy industry, to preserve and enhance the reputation of the entire industry. It is in their best interest to be made aware of these things, rather than having the heavy hand of whatever government department happens to be contacted try to remedy the situation.

At the same time, I would encourage him to meet with the members of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce and perhaps the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce. I know that they have annual meetings whereby they invite the caucuses to come forward and put issues on the table and have discussions. I know I have read in the Manitoba Chamber newsletter from time to time that that group has hosted the NDP caucus, and they have a wide-ranging discussion of pertinent issues. That would be another avenue whereby the member might want to bring his cases and his concerns forward.

They too exist I think to provide a better environment for business and labour groups within the province to function. The knowledge of those concerns that have been brought to my honourable friend's attention would be of tremendous interest to them. I know that any time we have had those meetings, there has been a sort of wide-ranging discussion of some of the issues. That would be a good opportunity for the member to make his case.

Having said that and having directed him to the Manitoba Restaurant Association and the Chambers of Commerce, we, too, of course, would be interested in that information and will deal with it in an appropriate manner.

Mr. Reid: The minister's suggestion is a good one, and I have already given consideration to that. When we do meet with the chambers I will attempt--given the opportunity to do so. I just want to make sure that there is an educational process in here, that perhaps you could include, when you do your survey of the students, with respect to under 16 working in the workforce. You may want to consider asking those people some of these questions with respect to their pay. Are they being given vacation pay? Perhaps you already are including that in your survey. Are you working after hours without pay? Are you doing things that would not be considered--do you know of your rights under the legislation?

You have an abbreviated form of the legislation that you have available for distribution, and perhaps you may want to look at doing some distribution of that information so that our young people entering the workforce are made aware of what their rights are. I think it would be in their interest to be aware, prior to entering the workforce, what they can and cannot expect when they enter their first jobs. I leave that with you as a suggestion for your survey or some other activities you may want to undertake from the department.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, that is--

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): The time being 12 noon, I am interrupting proceedings. The Committee of Supply will resume sitting this afternoon following the conclusion of Routine Proceedings. I am interrupting proceedings then.

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