4th-36th Vol. 30-Oral Questions

Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to the right where we have this afternoon Mr. Brian Pallister, former member for Portage la Prairie.

Also seated in the public gallery this afternoon we have seven Grade 9 students from Chief Peguis Junior High School under the direction of Mrs. Delores Smorang. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson).

Also, we have forty-seven Grade 11 students from Gimli High School under the direction of Mr. Peter Bjornson and Mr. Richard Johnston. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

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Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. During the election campaign the Premier (Mr. Filmon) promised to review tuition fee policies for universities and community colleges. He stated that the 5 percent cap, of course a pre-election tuition fee cap, had been put in place and that they would be coming back with a policy on tuition fees. Can the Premier today table for the people of Manitoba, some three years after his promise, the tuition fee policy for community colleges here in Manitoba?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, when the government began to proceed with the establishment of the Council on Post-Secondary Education in Manitoba, a body that is in the process of co-ordinating activities between and amongst post-secondary educational institutions in Manitoba, at that time was struck an interim transition committee which established a sub-committee of it on tuition fee policy for students. That body did come up with some recommendations which were then transferred to the Council on Post-Secondary Education when it was established. That body has now been in existence for about a year and amongst the many things they are doing is the examination of that recommendation on tuition fee policy. That policy currently being examined had input from students amongst other educational stakeholders and they have yet to report back to us on their conclusions on that study, but the process has been underway for some time.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this was a promise made by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) over three years ago to the people of Manitoba. It was not a promise that somebody else would give it to somebody else who would review it with somebody else and some day report. It was a specific promise made in writing to the people of Manitoba.

I want to table a draft business plan for the Red River Community College which indicates that they are proposing to raise tuition fees at the Red River Community College 10 percent per year for the next five years. This of course is on top of some 30 percent increase in tuition fees at community colleges. I would like to ask the Premier today: will he reject those 10 percent proposed tuition fee increases and follow through on his promise to have a tuition fee policy that will allow students to fairly access community colleges here in Manitoba?

Mrs. McIntosh: The member opposite I am sure is aware that tuitions in Manitoba are the third lowest in Canada, a very good record. He is also aware, I am certain, that we have increased substantially our funding to community colleges and this year in particular to universities and colleges, a very large increase.

We have done a number of things as well as having the tuition fee policy devised initially with input from students, now with the Council on Post-Secondary Education currently being reviewed by, amongst others, students for final recommendation to the government. In the meantime, Madam Speaker, we have increased the amount of money going to community colleges, we have put and made a pledge and are in the process of completing having students increased to 25 percent representation on college and university boards of governors, those bodies that set the tuition fees. I will conclude the response with the next question.

Mr. Doer: The minister did not answer whether they had developed the policy as they had promised in the election campaign, and she did not answer on the second question whether she would reject the 10 percent proposed increase per year for the next five years. This feedback is coming to us from students who are very alarmed that this government would be proposing this massive increase. They feel that the accessibility for average working families will be totally destroyed if this 50 percent rate increase goes through in our community colleges. It will have a direct impact on the training and skills of our future workforces as well as the future opportunities of our young people.

I would like to ask the minister or the Premier again today: will they reject this proposed tuition fee increase on behalf of accessibility and fairness in our community colleges?

Mrs. McIntosh: The member has indicated in his first question--and I remind him that we did for two years have a cap on tuition. We now have that tuition fee policy in its final stages being checked out right now by students and other stakeholders in education. In the meantime, I must stress that, in addition to increasing representation on boards of governors so that students will have 25 percent representation on the bodies that set fees, we have also increased opportunities for scholarships. We have introduced a Learning Tax Credit, so that rebates can be given at income tax time on tuition; that includes college tuition. We have, in addition to that, still the third-lowest tuition fees in Canada, and we are increasing as well opportunities in community colleges for apprenticeships as we take over funding for apprenticeship from the federal government. As well, Madam Speaker, we have been regularly meeting with students and receiving input from them on their thoughts on these things.

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Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, enrollments are falling in universities across Manitoba, and the enrollment of sequential students out of high school into community colleges is not increasing in a commensurate way. One reason is that students in Manitoba have no predictability of what their fees will be from the time they enter to the time of graduation four years later.

I want to ask the Minister of Education to explain why it is she has been incapable of delivering to the public the tuition fee policy for Manitobans that she promised three years ago. I asked her about it in the House December '95, June '96, May '97. She has still been incapable of providing a tuition fee policy.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Perhaps, if she wishes to argue about the speed with which things happen, we could maybe talk about that, but certainly to say "incapable" is not correct. We had an interim transition committee subcommittee set up. It met for a year. It had the presidents of UMSU; it had other student representation on it. That recommendation then in turn went to the Council on Post-Secondary Education which has taken a look at that in context of all of the institutions together, because we are now co-ordinating activities, something the member supported.

Madam Speaker, tuition fee policy for the province was set down in terms of reference and parameters that all institutions can use. That necessitates a more in-depth look than was originally proposed, and that look is currently being concluded, with students taking a final analysis of the Council on Post-Secondary study of those recommendations put forward by the interim transition committee. In the meantime, we have put in many incentives and usages for students across this province.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister explain why families in Manitoba waited three years for the Roblin report? They waited another three years for the government to think about it, and two years on from that we have subcommittees and advisory committees and still no tuition fee policy for Manitobans. Other provinces are able to deliver policies. Could the minister explain why Manitobans cannot?

Mrs. McIntosh: These things that we are doing were long needed doing, and I am pleased that this government has taken the initiative to do them. These things needed doing in the '70s and the '80s when they were not being done. I would hope that members opposite would be pleased to see that these things are finally being done, because they were not done during the time that they were in office. They did not even try to address these things as we are doing.

The Roblin report she speaks about resulted in the establishment of a Council on Post-Secondary Education. It is in existence; it is working; it is operating. They are charged with these other mandates that will also have things that will soon be in place and operating. Rather than complain about things that they did not do that they do not like the way we are doing, I would ask them to support what we are doing since they seem to like the principle of what we are doing.

I would also indicate, Madam Speaker, that we have the third-lowest tuitions in Canada, that we have a very vibrant job market, a strong economy that sees many students going straight to work rather than to post-secondary training.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us exactly why she is prepared to allow fees at Manitoba universities to rise at a rate 35 percent higher than the national average while Manitobans wait and wait and wait for a fee policy that never comes?

Mrs. McIntosh: In terms of providing access to post-secondary education, this year to universities and colleges was a very substantial increase. We have also increased support for scholarships and bursaries to the tune of $5 million, something that again, unfortunately, did not occur under them when they were government. We have $5 million in scholarships. We have a Learning Tax Credit where students can get rebates from their tuition at income tax time. We have put on university boards of governors and college boards of governors 25 percent student representation so they can have direct input into the establishment of fees. We still have the third-lowest tuitions in Canada, and we have done a number of things in terms of debt reduction. We are harmonizing our efforts on debt reduction, interest and so on with the federal government to make it easier and easier for students to gain access to post-secondary education in Manitoba.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, last week the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) asked the minister responsible for Manitoba Telecom Services what position he took at the annual meeting of the shareholders at which the stock option plan was debated and passed. The minister did not answer the question at that time. Will he now answer the question?

What position did he take at last year's annual meeting?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I have already indicated how the stock option plan was ratified by the shareholders of MTS in May of 1997 at the annual general meeting. We get to appoint four directors to the board of directors of MTS. I have indicated very clearly to this House who those four individuals are. They have participated in the discussion at the board of directors, and ultimately the recommendations from the board, relative to the establishment of a plan, were approved by the shareholders.

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Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, the minister continues to refuse to answer the question.

The question is, very simply: what position did he take as a person, or representing the government of Manitoba holding the golden share, the special share? He had to be present at the meeting in person or in proxy. What position did he take on that issue?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, no, I was not present at the meeting. I have indicated very clearly to this House what the process is, that the golden share provides us with the opportunity to appoint four individuals to the board of directors. I have indicated very clearly to this House what the conditions are around the golden share, as outlined in the bill that was passed by this House.

As has been clearly outlined, the shareholders of MTS ratified the stock option plan at the May meeting, May of 1997. The details of that plan have become public in the last few weeks and have also been information that has been made available to the public. All of those issues will be addressed by the shareholders at their next annual general meeting in April of this year.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, will the minister tell the House who represented him by proxy at the annual meeting in 1997 and who will represent him this year at the annual meeting by proxy in 1998, in light of the fact that a quorum of the meeting must consist of at least two shareholders present in person and holding or representing by proxy the special share of the corporation? There can be no annual meeting unless you are present either by proxy or in person.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I have already outlined very clearly for the member and members opposite the process that has taken place at the annual general meeting. We were aware that there was a stock option plan being put in place by MTS, something that is very common with all telephone companies I believe, virtually all telephone companies right across--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Stefanson: Thank you very much. As I have indicated before, stock option plans are something not unique to MTS. They exist with the majority of telephone companies right across Canada. Madam Speaker, the concept of the plan was ratified in May; the details of the plan have been provided just recently.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): It is clear the minister is continuing not only not to answer questions but cover up the details in the way in which this stock option program was approved at last year's meeting.

Since in the Manitoba Telecom Services circular that was issued last year, page 3, and also in the newly released notice of annual meeting, 1998, it makes it very clear that the meeting cannot even take place unless the special share is represented, and in this case, if either the minister or whomever he appoints by proxy is not present there can be no meeting, can the minister answer a very straightforward question: if he was not there, who was there on his behalf at that meeting?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I have already outlined to this House the process, the entitlements that come with the appointment of--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Finance, to complete his response.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I have outlined the process that has gone through in terms of the establishment of a stock option plan ratified in May 1997 by the shareholders of MTS, the details provided within the last several weeks of the stock option plan and nothing unique exists. Virtually all telephone companies--exists in many aspects of the private sector, and it is certainly information that is readily available to shareholders and to the public.

Mr. Ashton: I would like to table the Manitoba Telecom Services Inc. notice of annual meeting which outlines very clearly the role of this minister and the fact that there has to be a representative of this minister and this government present. I would like to ask the minister responsible for MTS to answer a very simple question: who was there at the meeting last year on his behalf? Who represented the Province of Manitoba at the shareholders' meeting?

Mr. Stefanson: I encourage the member for Thompson to read from the document that I believe he has just tabled, to read the bottom of page 3, to read the top of page 4 that indicates very clearly that the act provides that the Minister of Finance on behalf of the Province of Manitoba will have the exclusive right to nominate and elect four directors of the corporation. They are outlined in the document, Madam Speaker, the four directors--as I have put on record before, the four directors appointed by the Province of Manitoba, Mr. Robert Chipman, Ashleigh Everett, Donald Penny, Sam Schellenberg. As it goes on to say, the Minister of Finance has the exclusive right as owner of the special share to nominate and elect four directors of the corporation. That has been done, and those are the four individuals so directed.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a final supplementary question.

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Mr. Ashton: A final supplementary. Why will the minister not answer the question? Who was there on his behalf representing the people of Manitoba through the proxy that he would have had to issue? Who was there at the annual general meeting? Why will he not answer the question?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as I have indicated to the member for Thompson and others in this House, on an ongoing basis, so long as there is a debt back to the Province of Manitoba, there are four directors out of the 11 that are appointed by the Province of Manitoba. I just recently read the names for the member for Thompson. Those four individuals are appointed by the province and serve as part of the board of directors of MTS.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. I have received numerous phone calls from parents and teachers with respect to the Scurfield report and the possible negative impact that this report will have, not only on teachers' salaries but more importantly on the profession itself. My question is for the minister. Can the minister indicate to this House what she has established as a timetable in dealing with the Scurfield report?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): I thank the member for the question. The Scurfield report has been released to the stakeholder groups, to anybody who really would like to see it, but particularly to the stakeholder groups with the request that they respond to us with their studied opinion on how they see that impact for them. The trustees have met and are formulating a response that we will receive shortly.

The Manitoba Teachers' Society has been consulting with its members. They will be having their annual general meeting in May at which time they will have a further opportunity to deliberate, and I would expect to hear back from them at some point after that meeting. I am not exactly certain when, because they have to formulate their feedback. But they are not delaying on the issue; they are making a measured attempt to get the answers to us in as reasonable a time frame as possible. As soon as we have heard from them, we will then deliberate and come to our own decisions on the matter.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): To the same minister: how does the minister intend to address the serious issue of classroom size that is at the point of becoming a burden for the teachers, more specifically, for the students?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): I come back to the statistics which are there. Again, Manitoba has the third-best ratio in terms of students to teachers in our schools. The two figures that are commonly used are the pupil-teacher ratio and the educator-teacher ratio, one being the number of students per classroom teacher and the other being the number of students per educator in the school, some of whom may not register a class.

Those numbers, Madam Speaker, indicate an average class size of 18.9 to one or 19 to one, to round it up. Having said that, that being the average, I wish to stress that does not mean that every class has 19 students. Some will have more; some will have less. But that is the average; it is the third-best ratio in the nation.

Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): To the same minister: can the minister indicate to this House how, in her opinion, does the Scurfield report compare with the Crocker report that was recently presented in Newfoundland and rejected?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I have not made an exact report-to-report comparison. Although the reports may deal with the same issue, no two reports are ever exactly alike. The Scurfield report was designed specifically to make recommendations for Manitoba. Mr. Scurfield in his compilation of the report talked to Manitobans. While he did look at things in other parts of the nation, he dealt primarily with our situation, our needs and the concerns expressed by our teachers and trustees and others.

So his report was designed for Manitoba, and the response given will be based upon Manitoba's needs. Individual comparisons are always interesting and always useful, but in the final analysis we need to do what is right for our province, our students and staff.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I have some further questions for the Minister of Finance, and I hope he will take this opportunity to put on the record exactly who represented the government of Manitoba, the special share held by the government of Manitoba on behalf of the people of Manitoba, at the annual meeting in the last year of MTS.

I would like to ask the Minister of Finance: if it was not the minister, was it a senior official in his department? Was it a government official? Was it anybody associated with the management group? Will he finally answer the question: who represented the people of Manitoba at the meeting?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I encourage the member for Thompson--and I know he took some interest at one point in time in the legislation--to read Section 13(5) of the act that was passed by this Legislature. It goes on to say: At meetings of the corporation called for the purpose of electing directors, the minister on behalf of the Crown as owner of the special share shall have the exclusive right, voting as a class, to nominate and elect four directors of the corporation, and the registered holders of the common shares other than the Crown shall be entitled to nominate and elect the remaining directors of the corporation.

We have done just that, and I have indicated very clearly to him who the four directors are that we have appointed. The other seven directors were elected by the shareholders of MTS.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, on a supplementary: why will the minister not indicate a very simple answer to a very straightforward but very important question? Who was at that meeting representing the government of Manitoba, the special share, without which the meeting could not take place? Who was representing the government by proxy at that meeting?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I have outlined very clearly for the member for Thompson and members of this Legislature what the process is. I encourage them to take the time to go back to the legislation, starting with Section 10, and read through Section 10 right through to Section 14, and he will see very clearly the process, the process that was followed, and the process that was followed by us in terms of the appointment of directors to MTS.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, Article 2 of By-law No. 3 of the Manitoba Telecom Services establishes a quorum for the annual meeting, or for any meeting for that matter of the corporation, and the purposes--and I will quote: For all purposes, a quorum for any meeting shall be persons present being not less than two in number and holding or representing by proxy the special share of the corporation.

Who represented the minister responsible for Manitoba Telecom Services at the annual meeting last year, and who will represent them this year? Without that representation, Madam Speaker, there can be no meeting.

Mr. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, without being repetitive, I have indicated to this House what the process is in terms of the appointment of directors. That process has in fact been followed. It is outlined very clearly in the legislation. It is also outlined very clearly in the notice of the annual meeting that I believe is the document that the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has just tabled. It indicates what the responsibilities are of the Minister of Finance, indicates who the individuals are that have been appointed, and all of those conditions. All of those issues have been met and have been addressed.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, the question is incredibly simple. Whom did the minister appoint to exercise the proxy for the special share, which is in the by-laws of the corporation, which is required for a quorum, or is the minister trying to maintain to this House that there was no annual meeting because the proxy was not present? Which horse is he riding?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I hope the member for Crescentwood realizes by now that there was an annual meeting. I think there has been documentation that has been tabled, documentation that I believe he has had access to, and he has seen, that there is documentation showing minutes very clearly from a shareholders' annual meeting held on May 30, 1997. It was at that meeting where a stock option plan was approved in concept by the shareholders of MTS, the 70,000 shareholders, a majority of them at that time Manitobans from right across this province.

The details of that plan have been outlined in an information circular, which again I believe the member for Crescentwood has had an opportunity to review, setting out the framework for a stock option plan, so that certainly is information that is readily available, has been made available, and I believe even the member for Crescentwood is aware that that meeting did take place, and the shareholders did ratify a stock option plan.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): If the minister wishes, I am sure we would be more than happy to look over the minutes of the annual general meeting, but we are asking a very straightforward question. I do not know what it takes, Madam Speaker, and if it takes all Question Period today, we are going to keep asking that question. We want to know--

Madam Speaker: Is there a question?

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, we want to know who represented the government. Was it, for example, Bill Fraser, the CEO of MTS? Do we have to do it by elimination? Was it Bill Fraser that represented the government at the meeting?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I have outlined for the member for Thompson and the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) what the requirements are under the act that was passed by this Legislature. I have outlined what ability we have in terms of the appointment of four directors to the board of directors of MTS out of the 11 directors, and again, I do not think I need to read into the record for him what is outlined in the notice of annual meeting and who the four directors are. I am sure he can read that information for himself if he were to look at that document or go back and look at the bill that was passed by this Legislature back in 1996.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, if the minister will not answer that question, can he indicate if it was not Bill Fraser, was it Tom Stefanson, his brother, the chairperson of the board?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I would be repeating myself to give the member the same answer that I just gave him. I encourage him to look at some of the documentation that I believe he has in his possession, to look at the bill, to look at the notice of the annual meeting and to take the time to read that documentation.

Mr. Ashton: If the minister will not answer that question, was it Bill Baines, the president and chief operating officer of MTS Net?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I offer the same answer to that question as I do to the previous question and previous questions asked here this afternoon.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): A new question, Madam Speaker: will the minister at least acknowledge that on page 12 of the convening circular for the meeting of last year that the quorum was even changed so it very expressly included him or his nominee? Would he at least acknowledge that the quorum for a meeting of this corporation requires him to be present or at least requires his nominee to be present? Will he go that far with the truth?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I have with me the notice of the annual meeting for 1998. I do not have with me today the notice of the annual meeting for 1997. If that is the document that the member is referring to, I encourage him to table that document.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, I have but one copy. I would be quite happy to table it after I quote from it. For all other purposes, a quorum for any meeting--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member was recognized for a second or supplementary question to which no preamble is required. Would the honourable member please pose his question now?

Mr. Sale: Will the minister simply tell the House: who, pursuant to Article 2 of By-law 3, represented him at the annual meeting at which time the quorum was amended to even more explicitly include a requirement that he or his nominee be present? It was already clear in the original quorum requirement. It is even clearer now. Who was your--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I have indicated to this House the process that this has gone through, the legislation that is in place, all of the conditions outlined in the legislation that are in fact being met as a result of the sale of MTS, the process for the ratification of a stock option plan back in May of 1997 by the shareholders of MTS, the 70,000 shareholders, a majority of which were Manitobans. So, again, without being repetitive, that is the process that has been followed and it is one--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Finance, to complete his response.

Mr. Stefanson: Just to briefly complete my comments, it is a process that was gone through publicly with the annual meeting being held on May 30, '97, whereby the opportunity for some 70,000 shareholders to participate in decisions related to MTS. One of those decisions was the ratification of a stock option plan by the shareholders of MTS.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister, given that it is very clear from his evasion of answering this question over a period of days now, will he at least confirm that somebody exercised his proxy at this meeting? Somebody did or else there was no meeting. Someone must have done it. Will he at least go that far? This is embarrassing.

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I do not think there has been any shortage of information being provided or response to questions being asked by this House. We certainly did it extensively last week. It has also been the basis of some coverage through the media, so there certainly has been a significant amount of information provided. I think even the member for Crescentwood will finally understand the process that has gone through and the accountability to the 70,000 shareholders at the annual general meeting, of which the vast majority were individual Manitobans.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, the minister continues to cover up the very simple answer as to who was there on his behalf. I want to ask: would it by any chance be Jules Benson, the past treasurer of the PC Party and the secretary of Treasury Board, who reports, by the way, directly to the minister in his capacity as Minister of Finance as well?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): The member for Thompson is going through a process of reading different names into the record. I offer him the same answer that I replied to previous questions here today.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I continue. Was it Donald H. Carr, president and chief operating officer of MTS? Did Donald Carr represent the minister at that meeting?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again I offer the member the same answer, and I indicate to him that this is a process where shareholders have an opportunity at the annual meeting to review a stock option plan on a recommendation from the board of directors. That was done back in May of 1997. They have now gone through a process where a subcommittee and the board have ratified details of that plan. That is information that has been provided, and the board of directors will be held accountable by the shareholders of MTS at the next annual meeting of MTS held, I believe, this month.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, on a new question. I will ask this time to the Premier since we have had a repeated series of cover-ups from the minister responsible for MTS.

We have the spectacle today of the minister responsible for MTS refusing to answer the very basic question as to who represents the people of Manitoba and the government of Manitoba, who represented them at the last meeting?

Since this minister has refused to answer that very important question, I want to ask the Premier directly: will he either indicate who represented the province at that meeting last time, and in addition to that, will he perhaps do the right thing and call for the immediate removal of this minister as minister responsible for MTS?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the actions and the conduct of the members opposite of course do them absolutely no credit. They continue to fight old battles. [interjection] Well, the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) is very cocky and he shouts from his seat regularly, thinks he is the smartest man in this House, but of course we have had lots of examples of his work when he was a member appointed by the New Democrats to a senior civil service job. We saw his incompetence daily when he was a member of this government, so he can be as cocky as he wants, but we know exactly how much he is worth.