4th-36th--Vol. 13--Oral Questions

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Year after year, Madam Speaker, Tory Health ministers have been promising us next year there would be a plan on health care--'92, '93, '94, and again the Premier promised us a plan prior to the 1995 election which he, of course, cancelled days after the election and proceeded to freeze capital and cut acute care beds and fire nursing staff across the province of Manitoba. [interjection] Perhaps the Deputy Premier would like to answer the question, but I was addressing it to the First Minister. Perhaps you could call him to order and get some of his rudeness out of this Chamber.

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier: why has he not produced any plan to deal with the people that are sitting in the hallways waiting for a hospital bed, patients who have had their elective surgery cancelled under his administration? Why has he not produced any plan at all except to break his election promises from 1995?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): The Leader of the Opposition has had the experience of being in this House for many years. He has listened over the last number of years as we have discussed changes that are well underway in the delivery of our health care system. The most fundamental change has been regionalization that changes the structure of governance and administration. That, in itself, is probably the strongest change that is taking place in our health care system that will provide the tools to be able to deliver improved services, to be able to know where dollars are being spent, to be able to target dollars to ensure that we are getting full value for them.

Rurally, we moved last year--the RHAs rurally have been in operation for a year. They are working very, very well. In Winnipeg, our two authorities take on their role effective April 1, and I believe with that major change in the way we govern and direct health care, many of the changes he and his critic have been calling for will be able to be put in place in a much more effective way than under our old structure.

Mr. Doer: That is a recorded announcement from the Filmon Tories, Madam Speaker, that we have heard year after year after year. In fact, the Premier made the same statement in this Chamber in 1996, under the previous Minister of Health, when he said the regional health authorities would soon solve all the crises in health care. He made the same statement in this Chamber.

Just recently, while the Premier was in Switzerland, the new CEO of the Winnipeg Health Authority stated that there is no short-term or long-term plan in place in health care here in the province of Manitoba. I would like to ask the Premier: why has he not placed any short-term or long-term health care plan in Manitoba, and why will he not take responsibility for his lack of action? Does he not care about patients that are sitting in the hallway, elderly patients that are sitting in the hallway night after night after night because of his broken promises and his neglect of our health care system here in Manitoba?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, I would think that the Leader of the Opposition has probably not quoted Mr. Webster accurately. Mr. Webster, bringing together, now appointing the 13 program heads within Winnipeg--their teams have been put in place. They are busy step by step working on the changes that they need to deliver a much better system.

You know, I have been in this Chamber for a number of years and I have heard such contradictory arguments from members of the New Democratic Party. If we take a step too quickly, we did not plan. If we plan, we are taking too long. Whatever happens in the system, members opposite oppose. The problems, many of the problems that we are experiencing in health care today on the organizational side have been 30 years in the making. They take some time to change; people have to be gotten into place. You know, members opposite talk about 10 years. Many of the changes we are making in the fundamental structure were opposed by a lot of the existing establishment in our system. Members opposite know very well that major structural change does not happen overnight if it is to happen well or in a good and planned manner.

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Mr. Doer: Again the same recorded announcement we have had from three previous ministers of Health as patients are in a crisis situation. Elective surgery being cancelled is obviously good enough for this Premier (Mr. Filmon) who sits silently in his seat, lacking any leadership and any resources and any backbone to stand up for his health care cuts.

I would like to ask the Premier: on February 18, the Minister of Health, in a very self-important statement that we are getting used to, stated that he challenged the opposition to identify any beds that they had closed so that he could immediately reopen the beds. Did the Premier not brief his Minister of Health that he had cut over 1,300 beds in the province of Manitoba, some 700 beds since 1992? Did the Premier not brief his Minister of Health that he had fired hundreds of nursing staff? Did the Premier not inform his Minister of Health that they were the ones that cut the beds and closed the beds and why would he make such a ridiculous comment and not accept responsibility for the Premier's cuts in health care?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, here we come to really the point that divides us in this Chamber. What did we hear from the Leader of the Opposition? We did not hear one recognition of the changes that have taken place in health care because of technology. We have not heard one recognition of the change in bed needs in our system which the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), his own member, highlighted in this House in his speech about the need to reduce beds in acute care in increasing the long-term area.

The Leader of the Opposition did not refer once to the literally hundreds of long-term care beds that we have put into place. He did not refer once to the fact that we have tripled our home care budget. In fact, at the federal conference in Halifax this weekend, Manitoba has been hailed as one of the leaders, leaders in providing home care in the country. So we have been working for 10 years.

The member refers to elective surgery. There are from time to time reasons why elective surgery is cancelled. It happened during the flood, sometimes it happens during epidemics, and it happened when they were in power as well.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, there have been so many broken promises in health care that the whopper that was told by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) probably does not matter to the government, but it matters to the people of Manitoba. Can the Minister of Health or the Minister of Finance or even the Premier (Mr. Filmon), if he dares to stand up and deal with a health question, can they explain how they can promise $100-million increase in health care spending this budget when $93 million was announced this year, which means that the real increase is only $7 million, which is hardly enough to deal with the crisis we are facing in our health care system today?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, does the member for Kildonan believe that the health care system is static, that its needs only occur on one particular day of the year or they are tied totally with budget years? Throughout the last year as Minister of Health, I have been working with the Minister of Finance, with our Treasury Board, as we have identified new areas that required additional resources. We supplementally funded that; we put them into place. We have now built them into our budget; we have now built them into the base. If I managed it the way the member for Kildonan is suggesting, what were we to do? Not provide home care until the beginning of the fiscal year. Not provide increased dollars for emergency doctors until the beginning of the fiscal year. We have continued to meet need as it will develop, and if new needs occur during the course of this fiscal year, I am sure our Treasury Board will authorize the expenditure to meet them.

Mr. Chomiak: Now that the Minister of Health has admitted there is only a $7-million increase this year, will the Minister of Health or the Minister of Finance or the Premier (Mr. Filmon)--if he dares, because he is talking from his seat--will they explain which statement was correct, the one by the Minister of Finance in December when he said that special warrant money would all be ploughed into health care this year or the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) on Friday when he announced his budget in which he said a new additional $100 million would be ploughed into health care? Which of those two statements is the correct one, Madam Speaker?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, throughout the last year as we have identified increasing need in areas such as dialysis, for example, as we were met with problems among our emergency doctors that we had to deal with both rurally and in Winnipeg, as we dealt with certain waiting list issues, as we funded 83 additional hospital acute care beds in the city of Winnipeg to meet growing need, we met those needs. Now that money has been built into our base so that my ministry, the regional health authorities, now know that there is 100 million additional dollars built in our budget over last year.

Yes, we funded during the year because it was the right thing to do, and I am very proud that we did. I think the people of Manitoba appreciate the fact that we were there with those dollars when they were needed.

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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the minister confirm that, after the government pays off the $43 million in hospital debt that they are using to bribe the hospitals to join the regional health authority, after they pay off the $2 million to $5 million in salaries to the executives of the regional health authorities, and after they put in some of the $60 million additional computer money that is supposed to go to the Winnipeg Health Authority, we will in fact see less spending on patient care this year than we did last year?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, here we see it again. The New Democratic Party said we are for the old delivery system of health care. We want to have every hospital govern their own affairs. We want no central co-ordination. We want no ability to administer things centrally so we can get better use. We just want the old system with all of its waste, including the expenditure of some $2.5 million a year or so ago subsidizing cafeterias. That is their choice.

All across this country, planners in health care have recognized the benefit of bringing together our system in regional systems. As the Winnipeg Hospital Authority takes over, as they get into their budgets in a way that they have not been able to do until they are actually operational, I can tell you, if we need additional resources throughout this year to meet the legitimate health needs of Manitobans, our Treasury Board has always been there. I have no reason to expect that they will not be there in the future.

What my constituents are asking today, and I put this to the minister: could he tell us why this latest round of asset-stripping at the Misericordia has occurred without any community consultation, without a health or demographic profile, and without any public assessment of the needs of that community?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I do not believe that is in fact the case. The sisters of Misericordia are the owners of that facility who we have been in negotiations with about the role of that facility for a number of years. In fact, I think even discussions with them and their future role go back some 20 years in this province through various governments, but more recently, when I met with the sisters of Misericordia, I believe it was in the middle of October, and with the Archbishop of Winnipeg, Archbishop Wall, to discuss the future of that facility, there were two points that they made very clearly, that having a 24-hour primary care urgency facility to meet the needs of the people of the Wolseley area was absolutely essential, and we agreed to that. Secondly, having a number of ambulatory programs based at that facility that would be available not only to the people of Wolseley but to the people of Winnipeg and indeed Manitoba in some cases made eminently good sense. Those have been accounted for within this proposal, and I can tell you the sisters of Misericordia feel very strongly about continuing to deliver those programs, including post and prenatal care to people in that area. We will ensure that they are able to do that.

Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minister tell us how the government anticipates how he can explain exactly how one less intensive care unit, 180 fewer surgical beds in our system and less emergency service--not more--at the Misericordia Hospital is actually going to improve the prospects for the people of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba? How is it going to affect those people lying on the gurneys in the hallway and those people who are on those endless waiting lists across the province?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I will tell the member, because part of this plan builds 280 brand-new, long-term care beds in the city of Winnipeg. Every one of those beds will help to take the pressure off our acute care system, and a full primary health clinic with 24-hour service at an urgency capacity starts to take the ambulatory side of our emergency rooms and starts to move it to clinics. That takes pressure off our emergency services, which is something we have all talked about for years, and we are starting to deliver. The member at least admits it is the right thing to do.

Madam Speaker, if you look at our plan in Manitoba, we are one of the few major centres in all of Canada, including New Democratic Party provinces that have closed major hospitals in their downtown area. We have not closed the hospital; we have converted it to meet the needs of our citizens into the next century.

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Ms. Friesen: Could the minister finally explain why he has chosen to take the serious step of fragmenting patient care in ophthalmology and in breast care procedures at the Misericordia Hospital simply in order to meet the broken election promises of his government?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, one very important step in how we administer and plan the delivery of services has taken place in the last year. With the appointment of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, particularly the appointment of Dr. Brian Postl who has put in place the various teams, they look at these issues and one thing we did in this in our discussions with the Misericordia Hospital is we asked our planners, many of them medical practitioners in place in that system who work in it every day, about how best to reorganize that system. Those decisions, that part of the planning, we wanted to ensure that they were doing and they were handling and they were making those decisions from a system-wide basis.

As the local MLA for that area, I would be delighted to invite her to meet with Dr. Brian Postl. We would be prepared to arrange that to discuss those particular programs with him, because it was he and his design teams, as should happen, who developed many of these particular plans.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance, who in this budget misled Manitobans to think that his government would be spending an additional hundred million on health care instead of in reality recognizing that 93 million had been put into the budget base previously by special warrant. Included in the so-called hundred million initiative is $10 million for medical equipment, which the CEO of the Brandon Health Authority stated in the Brandon Sun that the $10 million is not new money and that $3 million from last year was rolled into the same $3 million of this year. He is rather polite. He refers to it as a bit of artistry.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am sure the honourable member has a question.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the minister now admit that he has not put a hundred million dollars of new money into the health care budget but only an inadequate, paltry $7 million?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, no, I will admit no such thing. I had the privilege this morning to be in the city of Brandon and to meet with many people from all of the different organizations in that community and surrounding community. I met with the very individual that the member for Brandon East is quoting from in that article, and that individual now very clearly understands that the $10 million for medical equipment is over and above the hundred million dollars that has been provided in this budget. So it is not only a hundred-million-dollar increase year over year in terms of the budgeted amount for health care here in Manitoba, it is an additional $10 million for technological equipment needs throughout our health care system.

As the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) has clearly explained, Madam Speaker, and members opposite seem to have difficulty understanding, during this year we had some health care needs, and when we had them we put the money in place. We do not wait. We put the money in place when it is needed, and we are keeping that money in place as we move forward into 1998, building it into the base budgets for our health care system, for our home care system, for our personal care homes, and the list goes on and on--a hundred million dollars more in the health care system in 1998.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Brandon East, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Finance admit that the spending budget in health is being artificially increased by including $14.4 million for the Brandon Mental Health Centre, which is incidentally more than last year, when there are practically no patients left, nearly all the employees are gone and when the Brandon Mental Health Centre is going to be closed for good at the end of July? Will the minister now admit that his health care Estimates are wrongfully inflated by not removing $14 million allocated for a soon-to-be-nonexistent Brandon Mental Health Centre?

Mr. Stefanson: No, Madam Speaker, again I will admit no such thing. Those resources have been provided both for the transition at the Brandon Mental Health facility and for the ongoing needs in that whole Westman area as it relates to mental health care reform. It is pretty fundamental. The resources are there, and they will be put to use in that region.

Mr. Leonard Evans: It is a strange way of accounting for expenditures--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Brandon East was recognized for a final supplementary question.

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Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Finance acknowledge that what I consider to be only $7 million of new money for health care in this budget will not restore the $6 million that had been cut from the Brandon General Hospital over the five years, which according to the government-appointed CEO, Mr. Earl Backman, these cuts have been excessive? Those are his own words in the Brandon Sun. Will the minister admit that the budget will not address the serious problem of shortfall of the funding of the Brandon General Hospital?

Mr. Stefanson: Again, Madam Speaker, I will admit no such thing. Resources have been provided and set aside in '97-98 to deal with some of the requirements of some of the health care facilities. Resources are being built into the budget for 1998, moving forward again in terms of meeting the needs of our hospitals and other health care facilities.

I want to remind the member for Brandon East, in case he is not aware, today we are spending $600 million more on health care in this province than we did 10 years ago. That is a 45 percent increase over that 10-year period, a significant commitment and additional resources provided for the health care needs of Manitobans. We spend almost 35 percent of our budget on health care, the second most of any province in Canada. We spend $1,700 per man, woman and child in Manitoba, the third highest in all of Canada. That is a strong commitment to health care here in our province.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Finance. What we have seen over the years is the continual reliance on the financing of public education through the property tax as opposed to general revenues. We have seen freezes; we have seen decreases. This year there is somewhat of an increase, but it has to be a huge disappointment for those who are concerned about the future of our public education.

My question to the Minister of Finance: has this government any targets or goals whatsoever to address the need of properly financing the public education system in the province of Manitoba?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Again, Madam Speaker, in terms of education, in total in our 1998 budget, education is up by almost $50 million. Support for K to Grade 12 is up on the school year by in excess of $16 million, 2.2 percent. That is a reasonable commitment in this budget year to education here in our province.

The member for Inkster and I have had this discussion before. He is suggesting potentially to shift away from funding some of education on the property tax to something else. I ask him: where is he going to provide that funding from? Is he going to increase the sales tax? Is he going to increase personal income taxes? What is he suggesting, and where is he suggesting those resources come from? He has never given me an answer to that very point.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, generally speaking, the opposition asks the questions and the ministers answer the question.

Having said that, my question to the Minister of Finance is to ask him specifically: does the government have any sorts of targets or goals in terms of trying to achieve more of the reliance on funding public education through general revenue, as opposed to property tax which he knows is a very regressive form of taxation in financing of education? Does he have any goals or targets?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I know how the process works. I was just challenging the member for Inkster to try to come up with some solutions and alternatives for a change, which he still refuses to do.

I think I have to repeat myself for the benefit of the member for Inkster. In this particular budget, there are $16 million more for public education, K to 12, almost $50 million for education in total here in this budget, an increase of about 4.5 percent for education funding in 1998. That is a significant increase and significant support for education here in our province in this year.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the minister that if in fact he is not aware of how this issue can be addressed, will he at least then agree to have some people get together to come up with some recommendations. I would be more than happy to provide the Minister of Finance, especially if the Chamber is able to give leave, to tell him some ideas that I have in terms of properly financing education, because this government has failed in its attempt to properly finance public education. Will the Minister of Finance commit to the need to address the inequities of how public education is being financed in the province of Manitoba?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I certainly will wait patiently for the recommendations from the member for Inkster.

But again I think our record shows over these many budgets, we have a significant commitment to education, to our K to 12 education, with the amount of funding that has been provided over these many years, significant ongoing commitments to the K to 12 education, in this budget alone in excess of $16 million, additional funding for early literacy programs, additional funding for technology, a series of initiatives announced by the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) to deal with public education, showing, as I say, the significant support for public education from our government in our 1998 budget.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, it has to be said. This province, this government has now closed what was Manitoba's third-largest hospital until they started tearing it apart in 1990, '91, '92, '93. They have closed a hospital that had 404 acute care beds as recently as four and five years ago. They have closed that acute care hospital.

Madam Speaker, my question to the Finance minister: will the Finance minister confirm that the $93.6 million of his added health care spending by special warrant announced in the third-quarter spending will show up finally in revised Main Estimates in '97-98 budget, and it will then prove very clearly for him and for everybody else that '98-99 has but 6.4 million new dollars for health care?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, the members opposite, on every issue it seems they try to have things both ways. We have already indicated budget over budget a hundred million dollars more for health care, not counting the additional $10 million for additional equipment needs in our health care system as asked earlier, but as the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) has said, there are some needs throughout 1997-98. As those needs evolve, we have been dedicating resources to them. We have been dedicating resources to the hospital program. We have been dedicating resources to our Home Care program because we probably have the best Home Care program in all of Canada.

Those amounts, Madam Speaker, will be built into the base funding for those very important services in 1998, additional money built into our hospital program, built into our Home Care program, built into our Personal Care Home Program. I cannot understand why the members opposite cannot fundamentally understand that those resources, new resources are being dedicated into the budget and being provided for those very important areas, very fundamental. The only people that do not seem able to comprehend that are members opposite.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, has the minister then confirmed that when Public Accounts are tabled later this fall, his Public Accounts, they will show that his new budget adds only $6.4 million or one-third of 1 percent to already-announced health spending levels announced in December as $70 million, announced in March as an additional $93 million, but for this new budget $6.4 million, one-third of 1 percent? Is that what Public Accounts, Volume 1, will show when you table it, Mr. Finance Minister?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, as we have indicated during both our second and third quarter in 1997-98, we are going to spend more money in health care than we budgeted, and that is certainly not something we are ashamed of. There have been needs in home care: we step up and we provide the resources to meet the need. There are needs in the hospital program: we provide the resources to meet the need. We do not do it on a one-time-only basis. We build it into the base core funding for all of those organizations moving forward so that they can continue to provide quality health care in our hospital system, in our personal care home, in our home care system.

So they are not one-time adjustments. They are amounts that are being built into the base core funding on an ongoing basis for the quality health care we all want and need here in Manitoba.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the Finance minister also confirm, now that he has confirmed there will only be $6.4 million new money in '98-99, that at the end of the third quarter his government, far from putting more money in as new needs had arisen, was in fact $15 million under his budget, his old budget? So where is this great commitment to health care? Only 6.4 for next year and 15 million under budget to the end of the third quarter. Where is the big commitment?

Mr. Stefanson: First of all, Madam Speaker, I do not accept any of the preamble of the member for Crescentwood. What the 1997-98 Public Accounts will show is that since 1998 there will be approximately $600 million of additional money spent in our health care system here in Manitoba. What our 1998 budget shows is in 1998 we are budgeting a hundred million dollars more than we did last year, and that money will be provided in all of the needs in health care in our hospitals, in our personal care homes, in our home care system.

Let us just look at our home care system alone where today we are going to be spending $123 million compared to about $41 million back in 1987-88, triple what was spent back then, meeting the health care needs of Manitobans.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Today is of course the 10th anniversary of the shooting of J. J. Harper, and today our thoughts go out to his widow Lois and his family members. Of course, Mr. Harper was at that time the executive director of the Island Lake Tribal Council and one of our foremost leaders in the province of Manitoba in the aboriginal community.

In the absence of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), I want to ask the Premier as the First Minister in this province what this government has done with respect to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry and what plans it has so we ensure that such incidents as the shooting death of J.J. Harper do not happen again.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank the honourable member for his question and join him in expressing our condolences and our continued sympathies to the family of J.J. Harper.

Madam Speaker, our government has implemented various initiatives and programs in response to the spirit and the intent of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry recommendations, and our government will continue to alter existing facilities and services to meet the needs of aboriginal people. Some of the initiatives which we support and fund include aboriginal policing in Manitoba, aboriginal court workers who provide service to aboriginal people involved in the court process, urban sports camps, Choices Youth Program, crime prevention programs, the Hollow Water First Nation program which provides a comprehensive response to sexual abuse in First Nations communities, the aboriginal diversion program, healing circles, restorative justice measures for aboriginal offenders, many other programs that flow from recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry which have been obviously referred to many times in discussions in this Legislature.

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Mr. Robinson: Many of the initiatives that the Premier just talked about are pre-AJI initiatives, things that were happening and viewed as models by the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.

I also want to point to the fact that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) is quoted in today's Winnipeg Free Press as saying that he cannot point to anything specific relating to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry that this government has adopted. I would like to ask the Premier to provide any details with respect to any discussions that this government has had with other levels of government, including the city and the federal governments, in implementing the main aspects of the AJI.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think that there are articles in today's newspaper and yesterday's newspaper that indicate many of the changes that have taken place among our law enforcement agencies in terms of recruitment, in terms of sensitivity training and all of those issues having to do with the manner in which they deal with aboriginal people in the course of their everyday operations as police services. Those are all positive initiatives and steps carried forward, ones that we not only support but contribute to financially. There is a whole list of initiatives that has been catalogued here in this House by previous Justice ministers that involves responses to the various categories of recommendations that are within the jurisdiction and control of the provincial government. I know that they have been acted on. I think that is the kind of comprehensive question that ought to be discussed in the Estimates process so they can go over line by line, initiative by initiative the various things that are already in process.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I want to ask the Premier if he believes that the justice system is now no longer failing aboriginal people on a massive scale as the AJI pointed out, and if so, can he explain why incarceration rates have increased amongst aboriginal people? Also, street gangs were not an issue during the findings of the AJI. I am wondering if the Premier does feel that this system, the nonaboriginal system, is no longer failing aboriginal people.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, because we have not solved many of the problems and challenges with respect to the relationship between aboriginal people and the justice system in Manitoba does not mean that we ought to stop trying or that we ought to make conclusions that (a) we have succeeded or (b) we have failed. I think what is important is people's awareness of the need to continue working to continue developing new initiatives.

We talked, even in the recent throne speech, about diversion of aboriginal peoples, and other systems that are not normally practised within our justice system are more appropriate for dealing with aboriginal people, that the investments that we make even in urban sports camps, northern sports camps for aboriginal people are designed to try and provide them with positive, healthy alternatives to a life of crime, and all the various initiatives with respect to youth gangs and so on. Many of the issues that we face today continue to evolve and continue to be the product of new initiatives. We try some things to address what we see as the major challenges; some of them work and some of them do not. That does not mean we should stop trying.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.