Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, last evening a number of people who were devastated by the flood this year from the Red River Valley spoke eloquently about the devastation, about the impact it had on their lives and their families and about the fact that they all believe we all live as one community on one flood plain and should be working together as one community, neighbour to neighbour, I think a sentiment that is shared by all of us.

One speaker, Rita Bartmanovich, wanted me to present a sign today to the Premier (Mr. Filmon)--and I told her it was out of order--that I am still homeless. She spoke eloquently about the devastation to her family and her property where she had lived for 42 years. She has been quite confused by messages of this government. One day the door is open to change this; the next day it is closed by the Premier. One day the minister is going to open the door again on the 20 percent deductible; the next day the Premier says, you live on a flood plain, tough luck, and on and on and on.

So I would like to ask the Acting Premier today--and certainly people wanted the Premier there--in light of the fact of the replacement cost to many families, as we have been outlining throughout this session--the depreciation plus the deductible is a double deductible for families--will this government now agree to drop the 20 percent and state that clearly in this Chamber today, the 20 percent deductible, so people will have a chance of rebuilding their lives?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): I want to assure the Leader of the Opposition that this Premier and this government and my colleagues are extremely concerned and have taken some very important actions as they relate to those individuals who have suffered the hardship of the floods. Not only was the government working with the city and other municipal governments very aggressively and actively in the prevention and the protection of those individuals throughout the province where at all possible, there were some unfortunate situations which are being dealt with.

I can assure the member that this government is far more compassionate than the government which he was involved in when Mr. Harry Harapiak on April 3--press release--1987, increased the deductible to 25 percent. We have lowered that to 20 percent, not 25 percent--it is 20 percent--and have raised the maximum coverage from $30,000 to $100,000, which is taking place across the province.

We want to make sure those individual cases--I am sure the minister can speak to it more appropriately than I--hardship cases, that we can move as aggressively as possible to make sure they receive some of the funds necessary in addition to what they have already received.

Mr. Doer: The minister will know that they had printed the pamphlets and the bulletins at $30,000 until this opposition had done the homework across Canada to show what had happened and, Madam Speaker, the Harapiak policy improved on the former policy, and the policy that the government was pushed into improves upon that policy. There is no question about that.

All of us should be building upon the experience of the tornado in Alberta and the Saguenay region to improve again on the federal-provincial flood relief. All we are talking about is fairness for people in the Red River Valley. That is what we are talking about in this Chamber.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, in light of all the confusion between the minister and government members that have been attending meetings, why, with all this confusion, did the Premier (Mr. Filmon) not have the intestinal fortitude to show up at that public meeting last night to hear the people? Why did he slink off to the golf course, come through the back door and hide in this Chamber instead of meeting the victims of the Red River flood?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I take strong exception to the comments that he made about the Premier and the way in which he has dealt with these people of Manitoba and the flood conditions. The Premier was out doing what he had to do to promote this province as part of the Pan American Games promotions.

I want to also state that that meeting last night was--we had a very capable representative at the meeting who is directly affected as the MLA and the minister, who has worked very hard and aggressively along with the Premier, my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), for months to make sure the people of the Red River Valley were well protected, building a Z-dike in a week's time to make sure the water did not back in on the city of Winnipeg.

I can tell the Leader of the Opposition that he has been defeated three times at the polls, and he will be beat again. The people of Manitoba have shown who they support to look after them, and it is not him, Madam Speaker.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, during the flood we cared about our family, our friends, our neighbours. We worked together in this province. I remember the Premier (Mr. Filmon) was pretty visible at the time, particularly when it came to taking helicopter rides. Whenever there was a camera, the Premier was in front of it, but yesterday when there were 400 Manitobans, flood victims, who were pleading for the Premier to speak to them, he sat in this air-conditioned Chamber throughout the entire time.

I want to ask the Deputy Premier--

An Honourable Member: You were not around.

Mr. Ashton: Well, I know he was here because I came upstairs. While the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) was speaking to the flood victims, the Premier was sitting here in the air-conditioned Chamber.

I would like to ask a very simple question and that is: Why is it that this government will not meet, have the Premier meet with the flood victims? Why will they not deal with the human concerns of people who are still victims of the flood? Why did they have their Premier, Premier Filmon, sitting in this air-conditioned Chamber ignoring those real people who want to hear from the Premier?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I want to, first of all, deal with the compassion of this government as it relates to the changes that were made to former NDP policies. It was directed by the Premier of this province not by pressure from the opposition but the real need to increase the coverage from $30,000 to $100,000 for those people who were, unfortunately, so severely affected by this flood.

They can talk about printing of bulletins. We are not directed by bulletins. We are directed by compassion, of which this Premier led the way. We also had a 20 percent deductible, when the opposition party were in government had a 25 percent deductible. We have also said that if people want to put their sweat equity in contribution towards that deductible, they can do so, that it does not take hard cash to do that--again, a compassionate move by this Premier and by this government.

Madam Speaker, I would hope that the members would pay attention to the time and the effort, day and night, that the Premier spent all through the flood to make sure the direction of the safety of the people of Manitoba was well in hand, and it was. So we are not going to stand here or sit here and take any lessons from them on compassion, because I am extremely proud of our Premier and my colleagues in the handling of the biggest disaster this province has ever seen.

Mr. Ashton: Indeed, so compassionate he would not meet with flood victims yesterday, and on a daily basis he is undercutting his Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura) any time the minister even suggests that he would listen to the flood victims. That is how compassionate the Premier is.

I want to ask the Deputy Premier--and I want to plead on behalf of the people I went outside to listen to--will he commit to have the Premier sit down with the many Manitobans who are still being devastated because of the flood. If he would not come out yesterday from the Chamber, will he meet with the flood victims as soon as possible and deal in a real, compassionate way with the needs of those flood victims?

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Mr. Downey: Our Premier--unlike the members opposite when they raised Autopac rates 20 percent and they had thousands of people out here, when not one member of the NDP caucus would face that group of people in 1987, not one of them would appear before those people, we had a minister of the Crown who represents that community. It is my understanding that the Premier was not through the event that he was involved in to be back. I also want to understand that there were, Madam Speaker, more like 200 people, and it is unfortunate there were any devastated. More importantly--

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, it is not in order to make reference to the absence of a member, but I could confirm that the Premier was sitting here while the rally was still going on. While the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) was actually speaking at the request of the people, the Premier was sitting here in this air-conditioned Chamber.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson did not have a point of order.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Deputy Premier, to complete his response.

Mr. Downey: I will just conclude my comments. It is my understanding that the Premier will be visiting some of the communities tomorrow in the Red River Valley. He will be visiting those people. I know the Premier very well. He is quite prepared to meet individuals who have difficulties with their lives, with their hardships. I can assure you, if the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), responsible for emergency services, needs or wants the Premier to be involved, I am sure that can be accommodated.

Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, this government is sending out mixed messages. Yesterday the Minister of Government Services actually broke the rules of the House by saying one thing in the House, saying there was no change in policy, and then going out in the hallway and saying, well, maybe there is a change in policy.

What this government is doing is breaking the spirit of the people who have suffered from the effects of the flooding in the Red River Valley. When is this government going to listen to people and waive the deductible, as has been asked, and help these people through the hardships that they are facing and help them get on with their lives? When are they going to get a straight message from this government?

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I wonder if, through a point of order, I might appeal, through you, to members of the House on all sides of the House who from their seats seem to be having more to say than those who stand to their feet. I suggest that if we all who do not have the floor did a little more listening and a little less talking, we might all learn something.

Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable government House leader for that observation. It is very difficult to recognize an individual so that he or she may be heard until such time as there is more calm and quiet in the Chamber.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Government Services minister, to respond to the question asked.

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have met with groups in Rosenort, St. Adolphe, Ste. Agathe, Red River Drive. At no time did any of those groups ever get the impression from me that there was a movement on the part of government with regard to the cap or the deductible, and that can be accounted for in the fact that the representative of the Red River Drive group walked out of our meeting last Thursday and reported to the press that the government was not giving any more money, and I stick by that.

I would like to just recap for members opposite some of the things that happen in disasters. Time is everything in the situation. If you recall the rains of 1993 that devastated the same area that I represent today, many of the producers right immediately following the rains and the occurrence of tombstone in their crops said: Our crops are worthless; we should write them off; you should allow us to burn them. They pleaded with government, crop insurance, to allow them to write these crops off immediately because they were devastated. They needed money because they were going to be bankrupt. As time went on, harvest came, the crop came off, sales were made. The event turned out to be much more positive than they anticipated.

Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, is the Minister of Government Services saying that what he said yesterday on tape to the media is not true, and in fact they are not looking at reviewing waiving the cap, or is what he is saying here in the House true? Give the people a clear answer. What is the message? Are you waiving the cap, or are you not waiving the cap?

Mr. Pitura: Madam Speaker, as I indicated to the group last night, our government is attempting to address the situation of devastation, of frustration, of the stress of everybody in the Red River Valley that has been affected by the disaster as quickly as possible. We have put extra inspectors out to make sure that all properties are inspected by the end of June. We are bringing in 160 assessors to put the evaluations together so that people will have their award letters before the middle of July so they can start to reconstruct their homes, their businesses and be able to put their lives back together.

We must remember, Madam Speaker, that this flood is of such magnitude that we can never, ever, I think, expect a return to what it was exactly before. We will always have that impact of that flood in our lives, but we hope to be able to address these situations, and we are trying to help these people get back on their feet as quickly as possible.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, people in Manitoba know that the real proposed increase for rates is about five times that of inflation for MPI this year, when you consider all the changes both directly and indirectly to the costs of auto insurance in the province of Manitoba. That has been well documented by CAA.

We find it scandalous that a Tory fundraiser that was appointed to the board of directors is making, on top of the $35,000 annual salary for the part-time work on the board--has got up to close to $29,000 reported in per diems from this government. How can the government justify eliminating the deductible for people who have their cars stolen at the same time they can find tens of thousands of dollars for Tory friends? Where is the priority for people in this province?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister charged with The administration of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): After the profligacy of the Pawley-Doer government, Madam Speaker, we are not likely to take too many lessons from the honourable Leader of the Opposition on this point. However, when I was appointed Minister responsible for MPIC, I quickly learned that some of the goals that I wanted to see achieved were to have the highest level of service to the public that we could attain. There were issues related to strategic planning for the corporation, its governance, the new system of no-fault and phasing out the old system of no-fault, the retirement of that particular way of doing business. Employee-employer relations were an important--these were all important matters. In addition, the corporation was in the throes of preparing their application for the Public Utilities Board.

Mr. Thiessen has a background that particularly well fits him for the chairmanship of the board. It is my expectation that, as Mr. Thiessen gets a good handle on some of the issues that I have referred to, the amount of time that he would have to spend as chairman would be reduced, but by no means do we want to have a chairman of the board who does not take any role whatsoever.

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Mr. Doer: It sounds like the only handle Mr. Thiessen has is a good handle on car theft victims' wallets in terms of the changes being made in the Public Insurance Corporation.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): I am glad the honourable member raised the issue about car thefts, because indeed the corporation is taking leadership in this area. It was the corporation and the government of Manitoba that approached the City of Winnipeg Police to see in what way we could assist in attacking this very, very serious problem relating to car theft.

It is not a one-pronged approach, Madam Speaker, to dealing with this problem. We think that, if the City of Winnipeg Police appropriately use dollars that we are contemplating making available to them to assist us with reduction in car thefts, we can save Manitobans throughout Manitoba dollars with respect to premiums to pay for the problem related to car thefts.

This is another area that I have asked Mr. Thiessen, the board and the executive of the corporation to turn its attention to--a serious problem that requires serious responses.

Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Industry (Mr. Downey) continually boast about the economic progress made by Manitoba in the past year. Yet, when we look at the average weekly wage increases in this province, we find that they continue to lag behind the nation as a whole and also that those increases are less than the rate of inflation so that the purchasing power of Manitoba workers has declined in this past year alone. In reality, average weekly wages have dropped by $10.70 between March of 1996 and March of 1997. In fact, in a month, that is $40 of purchasing power that the workers--$40 a month in one year, $40 in one year. My question--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am certain the honourable member for Brandon East has a question.

Mr. Leonard Evans: My question very simply and directly to the Minister of Finance: Is this loss of $40 a month, over $40 a month, supposed to be economic progress in this province?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Well, Madam Speaker, I am glad the member for Brandon East in his preamble acknowledged that we are proud of how Manitoba's economy is performing. I am sure he need look no further than many of the articles in the local media, whether it is: Manitoba economy to sizzle by the Royal Bank; Manitoba leads in job creation.

So, certainly, in terms of job growth, Manitoba is leading the nation, and that is something we should all be proud of. When you look at real disposable income for the last three years from 1993-96, Manitoba's after-tax disposable income has grown by 2.1 percent compared to Canada's growing by 1.1 percent, almost double the Canadian rate and the third-best performance in all of Manitoba.

An Honourable Member: Canada, all of Canada.

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Mr. Stefanson: So, again--in Canada. So, whether you look at that economic indicator, whether you look at jobs, whether you look at exports, retail sales, whatever indicator you want to look at, Manitoba's economy today is performing amongst the best in all of Canada, and that is something all members, including the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), should be proud of.

Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain very carefully why, in Canada as a whole during the same period of time, March to March, '96 to '97, the real weekly wages have increased by $2.68 per week or nearly $11 a month since March '96, while Manitoba's workers, the average wage in Manitoba has dropped by $10.70 a week or over $40 a month? In other words, why are Manitoba workers losing $40 a month purchasing power while the nation as a whole, the workers of the nation as a whole are increasing their real purchasing power?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, most of the economic organizations have come out with statistics in the last few weeks. Stats Canada came out with information on disposable income; the Conference Board has come out with their forecast for the economy. If you look at the most recent information from Stats Canada, again you will see that our growth in real disposable income continues to be amongst the best in all of Canada. Today we in Manitoba have the fourth-highest family incomes in all of Canada, a good performance for the province of Manitoba.

So, again, if you look at all of the economic indicators and certainly all of the coverage through all of the local media over the course of the last several months, Manitoba's economy in all of these areas continues to perform amongst the best in all of Canada.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Government Services. A fair comparison to the problems for the Red River flood victims is the problems the flood victims in the Saguenay region in Quebec had. According to officials in Quebec, it took 49 different Orders-in-Council to reach what they considered fair levels of compensation.

My question for the minister is: Given the obvious distress of some flood victims in Manitoba, will the government show as much flexibility as the government of Quebec in dealing with these issues?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, with respect to the member's question in terms of the flexibility, we have shown, I think, a great deal of flexibility in being able to address the magnitude of the disaster that has hit southern Manitoba. A number of things have occurred with respect to that. The first was, of course, increasing the amount per claim up to $100,000. Another area was with the farmhouse, farm business, getting the claims up to a hundred thousand dollars on each particular claim. We are at the present time into negotiations with the federal government in terms of being able to fulfill all the requirements of the MOU, which are what the member references as separate Orders-in-Council--could be likened to the same thing in that many recommendations, or at least many agreements have to be put into order, are being put into place as a result of this disaster that we had this year.

Mr. Kowalski: Is the minister aware that in Quebec, where it was not possible to rebuild the original structure, according to an Order-in-Council by the government of Quebec dated October 9, 1996, which I will table, where there was a cap of a hundred thousand dollars, residents were compensated for 75 percent of the damage exceeding a hundred thousand dollars? Will the minister commit to following Quebec's lead in offering such a benefit to Manitobans as Quebecers had the benefit of?

Mr. Pitura: With respect to the question put by the member, the present policy is that those people who have homes that are unsalvageable will be compensated to the maximum level based on either the appraised value or the market value of the residence that they cannot return to.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Will a member of the government tell me why, in the press release dated June 20 that honoured the Canadian Forces, RCMP and coast guard for their flood-fighting efforts, the Winnipeg Police Service was ignored? Does not the government care about the Winnipeg Police Service and respect the work that they did?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I know that there were many, many groups representing many jurisdictions that helped with the flood-fighting efforts. With acknowledging all the groups that had participated in the flood directly related to the province, with regard to the Winnipeg Police Service, I was not aware personally, myself, that they were directly helping the provincial organization in flood-fighting efforts. They may well have indeed been very active within the city, and I think that on that basis the province has extended a very warm thank you to all those participants in the city: Winnipeg police, firefighters and the like that participated in the flood-fighting efforts. I think that that is under that purview where they have been recognized.

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, last year this government had the publicly owned Manitoba Telephone System sponsoring a hole in its golf tournament to raise money for the PC Party fund. Now we see them soliciting more money from public bodies such as the Winnipeg Convention Centre and the Manitoba Capital Fund. How can the Acting Premier defend his government's sense of morality when he leads a party that solicits public bodies like the Winnipeg Convention Centre to give money to his political party?

Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): The society in which we live provides the opportunity for individuals to support political parties, to be involved--not under pressure like the NDP would have when it comes to having the employees contribute to political parties. Not only do they contribute to political parties, but they are controlled by the American union bosses making decisions out of the United States. This is a recent addition--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Downey: So, Madam Speaker, there has been nothing wrong. People are free to provide resources, to sponsor if they like. There is no pressure to do it. It can absolutely be done of their own volition.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, can this Acting Premier explain to Manitobans why public funds from the government itself--the Workers Compensation Board, the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, the Superannuation Fund--should be used to buy tickets to raise money for the PC Party of Manitoba? How can he defend that?

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, I do not accept for one minute the premise or the preamble which the member brings to this House. There is no one forced to participate in any way, shape or form by this government in any fundraising unless they, by their own governing system, decide to do so, unlike the NDP who used legislation to force working people, hard-working men and women to participate in political parties through checkoffs.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker. Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear that "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." The member for Crescentwood asked why this government was getting political contributions from public funds, from Workers Compensation and MPIC through MCF capital holdings. He is not even close to answering the question. Perhaps he did not hear it, but I would appreciate it if you would ask him to for once answer a serious question about why public money is going to the PC Party.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind the honourable Deputy Premier that, indeed, Beauchesne 417 is very clear--should respond to the question asked and not provoke debate.

Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, this government has put in place several instruments which will help the province's economy grow, employ people--investment in projects and confidence in the people of Manitoba. That is the instrument that has been developed. We have seen them enter into projects that are with private sector companies that we cannot disclose because it may, in fact, cause them some major difficulties in the marketplace which will erode those job opportunities. We do not direct how they spend their money. We do not direct how the Crocus Fund direct their money--again, a labour-sponsored program established by this government.

I have answered that in Estimates, I have answered it in the House and I can assure the public there is absolutely nothing inappropriate as to the way in which these funds are carried out, Madam Speaker. They are subject to the audits of the Province of Manitoba. Information is available, and as much as possible, when it does not put in danger the company which is involved, we are prepared to provide that information.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My question is to the Minister of Government Services. Did this minister sign the computer contract before or after SHL Systemhouse agreed to be the major corporate sponsor for the recent PC Manitoba fundraising dinner?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): As usual, I find myself correcting the member for Elmwood. There is no contract signed with Systemhouse. We entered a letter of intent, and we are in negotiations with Systemhouse which might well lead to a contract, but again he was wrong with his preamble and his information.

Mr. Maloway: My supplementary to the Minister of Government Services is this: Given the cosy relationship between SHL and this government and the sponsorship of the PC Manitoba fundraising dinner by SHL, can the minister inform this House as to what the current state of negotiations is, what the terms of the contract will be, the position of the staff and would he release a copy of the contract and would he also explain why it is that SHL, given that he said they do not have a contract, are out negotiating subagreements right now?

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I believe, Madam Speaker, if I could get the attention of all colleagues in the House, we may get some business done today. If honourable members on all sides of the House were to sit quietly in their seats when they do not have the floor, I think we could probably get a lot of work done today.

Madam Speaker: Once again, I thank the honourable government House leader for his advice, but he does not have a point of order.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Finance, to respond to the question.

Mr. Stefanson: As the member for Elmwood knows, there was a solicitation of proposals from this entire industry, from the information technology sector. Systemhouse was chosen from those that submitted submissions, and we are in negotiations with them which might well lead to a contract, but this does provide me an opportunity--he asked about the staffing issue, and as we have indicated consistently on this issue, some employees might well shift to Systemhouse, but at the end of the day, it is our intention that all of those employees will have jobs, either with Systemhouse or within government. In fact, a letter was sent from the Civil Service Commission to the Manitoba Government Employees' Union outlining that, that it is anticipated that job opportunities will be available within Systemhouse for civil service staff, and further, it is also anticipated that there will be no layoffs. I repeat it is anticipated there will be no layoffs of employees as a result of this initiative, so that is one issue. Obviously, at the end of the day, we will end up with a better system, providing better service to all Manitobans on a cost-effective basis. That should be the objective of any government.

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, a month ago I asked the Minister of Health about the government's underfunding of health care in this province, creating extensive waiting lists of over a year for persons awaiting hip and knee replacement surgery.

Madam Speaker, we were happy to see that the government put in, I believe it is some $300,000 into the Manitoba cancer treatment to reduce the waiting list in that regard. We know the government put a half a million dollars in to reduce the waiting list prior to the 1995 election, but the government has put no money in to reduce the waiting list for hip and knee surgeries. The minister indicated he would go back to Treasury Board to seek additional funding.

I want to ask the Minister of Health here today what success, if any, he has had in gaining additional funding to reduce the waiting list for those persons waiting for hip and knee replacement surgery.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): As I outlined to the member in my answer to him previously, in most areas, many of those areas that he has mentioned, we have increased, as a government, funding and increased the numbers of procedures done, in some cases very dramatically.

The need, because of an aging population, continues to grow. We are always trying to address that and keep up with it. This year in our budget Treasury Board provided some additional dollars to deal with waiting lists specifically, and we are dealing with each one of those lists one by one. He has referred to a couple of areas where we have already reached agreement to put in additional dollars. I can tell him that he should be expecting some additional announcements in the very near future.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.