Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister. Yesterday the Premier took a number of questions as notice dealing with the massive rate shock and increase that is being proposed by the Manitoba Telecom system and its submission to the CRTC.

A number of times we asked the Premier whether in fact the government representatives on the board of directors--did they support this massive rate increase or not. I would like to ask the Premier today: Can he advise the House whether the government has supported the $3-per-month proposed increase that will affect all Manitoba consumers in a very, very negative way?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am not in a position to give that information to the member opposite. The board meetings of the corporation are not public. We have not taken a position that we should brief the members opposite nor talk to them--at least, brief the members of the board or talk to them about issues that have to do with the running of the corporation.

We have said in the past that we want to ensure that we provide the best possible service to the people of Manitoba at the lowest possible cost. As I have said in the past, the processes that are in place go back several years when the CRTC instituted a program of rate rebalancing to ensure that rates that were charged reflected as closely as possible the costs of service so that, where the company was in competition, as it is for long distance, which has substantially lowered all of its long-distance costs for its ratepayers, they would also recognize that when the local competition arrived--and it will arrive before long for Manitoba Telecom Services--that they should not lose large chunks of their local business as a result of not having rates accurately reflect the costs.

Mr. Doer: The secrecy agenda of this Tory government just keeps going on and on. We have Bill 50. We have all kinds of secrets this government is keeping away from the people of Manitoba, and they cannot even tell us and make public what their own board of directors and representatives are doing on the biggest rate increase in the history of the Manitoba telephone system. I think shame on this government and shame on this Premier for his secret regime that he is administering here in the province of Manitoba.

I would like to ask the Premier: In light of the fact that he will not take a stand on his own board representatives on the Manitoba Telecom Services board of directors, will this government now rise up with consumers across Manitoba and oppose this massive $3-per-month rate increase and join with seniors and other consumers to go to the CRTC and oppose the massive increase that will have to be required as a result of the privatization and the broken promise of this Premier?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to make the point that the member opposite talks about a rate increase. A proposal has been put forth to the CRTC. They are an objective third-party review that will evaluate whether or not the proposal is reasonable and will make judgment on that in accordance with principles that are applicable right across Canada. They will not deal with it politically, as members opposite want to do and did do while they were in government.

I make the point that, for instance, in Manitoba Telephone System rates, there was only one increase during the period of 1977 to 1981, when the Lyon government was in office, and no sooner did the New Democrats come into office, but they started to increase year after year after year the rates of the Manitoba Telephone System. In 1982 they increased the rates; 1983 they increased the rates; 1984 they increased the rates; 1986 they increased the rates; 1987 they increased the rates. Some of these were double-digit rate increases. That is the way they operated from their cabinet room when they had an opportunity to control the rates of the Manitoba Telephone System. They did not control them. In fact, they used them as an opportunity to continue to go up and up and up and up, and that is what they did when they had the political choices.

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Mr. Doer: The Premier did not answer the question. I asked whether the government would appear before the CRTC on behalf of consumers. Now that he has moved and broken his promise and moved us into a private, profit company, other provinces that are dealing with private, profit companies, like Ontario, like Quebec, appear on behalf of the consumers. You can appear on behalf of the consumers. I know this Premier has abandoned the consumers with the sale of Manitoba Telephone System.

I would like to ask the Premier: Will he join the consumers, the seniors, and others in this province that are opposed to this massive increase based on the private, profit shareholder return, and will he oppose the rate changes and the band changes that are going to result in massive increases beyond the $3 for rural and northern communities? Will he oppose those at the CRTC and get off the sidelines, Mr. Deputy Speaker?

Mr. Filmon: Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have continued to support the ratepayers and the customers of Manitoba Telecom Services as long as we have been in government. That is why there has been such a massive reduction in the long-distance rates since we have been in office, so that the bills of the people in Manitoba have continued to be controlled so they did not have to pay more than they were in many other jurisdictions. That is why we believe that we are doing what is right for the consumers of Manitoba, which is to keep their costs, their total costs as low as they possibly can be.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Earlier today we had discussion about some of the main beneficiaries in the privatization of MTS, the brokers on Bay Street, the political friends of this government. I would like to ask the Premier if he can confirm that a fundraising dinner held for the PC Manitoba Fund--and indeed, members opposite say it was a great event--that RBC Dominion Securities and particularly Bieber Securities and Wellington West Capital Inc., gave major contributions to the Conservative Party, in this case, months after they benefited from $35 million in commissions at the expense of the people of Manitoba. Will he confirm that?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Deputy Speaker, if the member opposite is speaking about a dinner held last evening--is he?

An Honourable Member: Yes.

Mr. Filmon: Yes. Well, I would say that there were a whole lot of Manitobans who were there who have contributed not only to some scholarships in the name of former Premier Duff Roblin but also to the PC Party of Manitoba. That included a wide range of people who did indeed buy tickets and tables. In fact, there were people I know who are not necessarily political supporters of this party, of this government. There were people there who I know were members of the Liberal Party and supporters of the Liberal Party, but they wanted to honour a great Canadian, former Premier Duff Roblin.

There were representatives of the media there, and they paid for their tickets. They did so because they wanted to honour a great Manitoban. We think that is appropriate. People make those choices. All the people who were there were more than 2,000 people, an outstanding success. Those were things that I believe were done in the recognition that former Premier Duff Roblin served this province and this country with great dignity and with tremendous strength and force. We were happy to see that recognition, and we were happy to have over 2,000 of them there.

Mr. Ashton: I would like to table a list, by the way, which indicates these were not tickets. Wellington West sponsored the dinner. Major corporate sponsors were the brokers that benefited from the sale. By the way, this is not being donated to flood relief. Perhaps if they were to donate the money to flood relief in the name of Duff Roblin, that would be appropriate but not to use this as a fundraiser for the PC Party.

I want to ask a question to this Premier: Can he also confirm that one of the major corporate sponsors is Manitoba Telecom Services Inc.? They are raising the rates on the seniors of this province and putting the money into the PC Party, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I would just like to remind the honourable member that his question is out of order. According to Beauchesne 410: "The subject matter of questions must be within the collective responsibility of the Government or the individual responsibilities of Ministers."

The PC Party does not fall under the collective power of the government.

Mr. Ashton: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will do a further question, which will be in order. Since the government has four representatives on the board of MTS which were appointed supposedly to protect the interests of Manitobans, can he indicate whether they approved using money from MTS to finance the Conservative Party, something that would be considered kickbacks in many areas of the province?

Mr. Filmon: I can say that the dinner was in every way a huge success, that it was attended by well over 2,000 people, that it did have representation there from various corporate entities and sectors of society. In fact, I believe one of the tables was bought by the Winnipeg Free Press. These are not people who are there as political supporters of this government. These are people who are there to recognize the significant contribution of former Premier Duff Roblin, and that is the way in which people looked at it. I am very glad that the member opposite is showing off the program. I think it is something that should be recognized--

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Might I remind honourable members, under Beauchesne 417, "answers to questions should be as brief as possible and deal with the matter raised." I had ruled the honourable member for Thompson's question out of order, and I do believe that was the one the Premier ended up answering.

The honourable member for Thompson, with a question.

Mr. Ashton: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I realize and I will ask this in way of a supplementary: Does the Premier not recognize--and I will table this document from the Financial Post which outlines the fact that two of the major corporate sponsors at this dinner, and I quote, were included for political optics at the insistence of Manitoba. That is Bieber Securities and Wellington West Capital.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, is it not clear to the Premier that this appears to everyone who can see it from an objective perspective that when you have people who have benefited so majorly from this, the--is an example of political kickbacks and we should not have those brokers or indeed MTS using the people's money of this province to finance the Conservative Party?

Mr. Filmon: If you accept that illogical point of view, you would have to accept that all of the unions that contribute to the New Democratic Party of Manitoba did so because of the labour law changes that they brought in when they were in office, and the checkoff that they created for those people that lined the pockets of the union bosses of this province were the reason why they got the union votes. Those are the kinds of analogies that the member opposite wants to make. If that is the way he looks upon it, then he has to accept the fact that New Democrats are bought and paid for by the union bosses of this province.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I do believe there are some members who would like to ask some questions this afternoon.

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Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have been asking a number of questions over the last number of years about the funding cutbacks on children and families and the most vulnerable in our society. Regrettably, this February the United Way of Winnipeg, in an unprecedented move, talked about the four- and five-year-olds that are now at risk. They talked about the fact that there are more and more funding cutbacks from funders like this provincial government, and unfortunately, governments are taking--this government is taking a short-term view and not funding prevention for people. Today the front-line workers, working again in many Child and Family Services agencies dealing with children at risk and families at risk, have come to the same conclusion, that funding cutbacks from this Premier over a number of ministers of Family Services are resulting in a short-term problem, in a long-term problem for all our communities. Families are having greater and greater difficulty with cuts and preventative programs and this is spiralling into massive increases in their caseloads.

Will the Premier reverse the cuts to preventative programs and start investing in hope and opportunity for our kids and families?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thank the honourable Leader of the Opposition for that question because it does allow me to clarify the record and indicate that support to Winnipeg Child and Family Services has increased by $17 million since 1991-92, and I do not consider that a cutback, contrary to what the Leader of the Opposition has indicated. I guess the big concern for me and for our government is the issue around families not being any healthier or any more functional as a result of those massive increases to our Child and Family Services agencies.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have genuine concern about the system that is out there today and whether in fact more money in the system will mean better services for families and children, or do we need to direct the dollars into different areas to ensure that we try new and innovative ways of providing service to children and families in need.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): We will listen to the words of the front-line workers and the words of the United Way agencies that have totally denied the kind of analysis we receive from this government.

I want to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): Management and staff, under a Prairie Research Associates study dealing with Child and Family Services, in a confidential report August 28, have stated that reduced services in schools, recreational facilities and cutbacks in health care were often cited as one of the key reasons to massive increases in caseloads for front-line workers. In other words, a management study is again confirming what the front-line workers were saying today. When is this Premier going to stop cutting preventative programs in schools, in recreational programs, in health care and start investing in our families and our children so they will have hope and opportunity in our future?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Deputy Speaker, again I say there is more money not less going into children and families in the province of Manitoba than there ever was under the former administration.

I just had the opportunity over the lunch hour to make an announcement at Rossbrook House, where we provided $300,000 through the infrastructure program for expansion of that facility. Along with the bricks and mortar that come with the infrastructure program is the additional $75,000 that we put into Rossbrook House through the Department of Family Services to stabilize their funding last year. Along with that goes money from the Winnipeg Development Agreement for the Urban Safety program. Those are the kinds of organizations and facilities that are right in the neighbourhood, that understand the needs of that neighbourhood, that are going to make a difference for the families and children, not unlike Andrews Street Family Centre that is receiving money, not unlike the Aboriginal Head Start programs that have been put in place under the Liberal federal government.

All of those initiatives are starting up and starting to have an impact on healthier families and healthier communities. I think that is where the focus of our energy and our effort and our funding has to go to try to ensure stronger, healthy families and communities.

Mr. Doer: We have the report from the front-line workers today; we have the report from the United Way a couple of months ago; we have a report from a group studying management in Child and Family Services all talking about the massive increases in caseloads based on funding cutbacks from this Premier and this government to health, education and recreation.

I would like to ask the Premier: In light of the 62 percent increase in caseloads, how high do the caseloads have to be, in terms of children in care, before this Premier starts reversing his heartless cutbacks to the programs that are vital for family and children of this province?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I guess I agree that there are issues--I agree with the front-line workers, with the Leader of the Opposition, with, I am sure, all members of this Legislature when people indicate that there is a need to ensure that the programs and the services are there and available for children. That is exactly what we are trying to address.

Now the union in Child and Family Services may believe that our mandated agencies are the area that we should be putting even more money into. We have increased the funding by $17 million over the last five years.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, we believe as a government that we need to be working with the community organizations and agencies, agencies like Rossbrook House, agencies like Andrews Street Family Centre, agencies like Ma Mawi, which I have had several meetings with.

The issue seems to be that 70 percent of the caseloads in the city of Winnipeg are aboriginal. I asked at committee the other night, how many aboriginal workers are working in the Winnipeg agency to try to resolve the problems. We need to be working with the aboriginal community in the city of Winnipeg to aggressively address the issues.

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Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Deputy Speaker, in Estimates in 1995 the Minister of Family Services said that she had concerns about children in hotels, and she was going to do something about it in the near future. This year in Estimates, two years later, she said there are up to 80 children a night in hotels.

Foster parents are saying that they do not want to take children because of the cutbacks, because it is getting increasingly difficult to maintain these children in their homes because of the policies of this government. What is the Minister of Family Services going to do to reverse the cuts that she has made to foster parent rates, to the supports for foster families so that parents will be willing to take foster children so they will not be warehousing children in hotels anymore? What is this minister going to do?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question, and I think it is the same question that was asked yesterday.

I will indicate that I am very concerned about the children that are in hotels and are not being served in a normal home situation or circumstance, but those are not the children that enter foster homes at the basic rate. Those are children that enter foster homes that have high needs, have special needs, and the agency provides in some instances up to $80 per day for children in foster placement if they have high needs, anywhere between the basic rate and $80 per day.

So the money is there. We have increased year after year the support to the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency. I have indicated $17 million over the last five years to try to deal with those issues.

I am disturbed that there are as many children in hotels as there are. We have asked the agency to try to deal with that issue, and they have committed to trying to find the appropriate foster placements.

Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if she will listen to the foster parents who are saying that they have inadequate supports--in the report that was released today--no visits from Child and Family Services workers for many, many months. Will she listen to these foster parents and reverse the cuts that were made by her government so that parents are willing to take foster children on behalf of our society so that these children and their needs are taken care of? When is she going to reverse the cuts? When is she going to provide more adequate support to foster parents?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, I say to my honourable friend that there is more money. There is $17 million more in the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency than there was six years ago. That is not a cut, that is an increase.

When the issue of a shortage of foster homes was identified some time back, and we were made aware of the increasing numbers of children that were being housed in hotels rather than in homes, I approached the agency and they did some recruitment. They did find some new foster homes, but the people that really need to be involved are the places like Ma Mawi, who I have spoken to and just met with last week, I believe. They went out and recruited 40 foster homes, and they are prepared to look at culturally appropriate foster homes, recruitment and training of those foster parents.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, those are the people that we have to work with. We have to trust that they can recruit and develop and ensure that culturally appropriate placement is available, and they are as concerned and they are prepared to work with us to try to accomplish that end.

Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services to read the environmental scan, to talk to the executive directors of the United Way agencies and listen to what they are saying, which basically is that the reason for the cost of children and maintenance going up is because of the cuts by this government in social assistance, in health, in education and recreation, which are causing children to come into care at higher costs, instead of spending money up front in prevention to keep children in their own homes.

Will the minister meet with these groups, read the reports and follow up on their very good recommendations?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, I will repeat for my honourable friend, because we honestly believe that agencies like Rossbrook House, like Andrews Street Family Centre are the agencies that are out there aggressively doing the early intervention, the early up-front support to try to keep children out of our child welfare system.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have made a commitment. We have made a commitment as a government, as all governments across the country have, to early intervention and trying to ensure that we do not need the resources and the foster homes in our child welfare system but that we can prevent that from happening.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have to indicate to my honourable friend that there are changes that need to be made in the system. I think sometimes we have asked our child welfare agencies, our mandated agencies to be all things to all children and families, and maybe the more appropriate prevention support needs to happen at the community level.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is for the Premier. We have a much increased workload at the provincial Ombudsman's office, especially with the passage of the privacy legislation. We have the Provincial Auditor's office which is having to delay new initiatives. We have Elections Manitoba which has boundary redistribution to be addressing. These are all independent offices.

My question to the Premier is: Because of the debates between the New Democrats and the Conservatives of this Chamber, we have not been able to meet and have these valid questions being answered and these independent offices being properly served. My question specific to the minister is: When are we going to deal with these three independent offices?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank my honourable friend for that question, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because I believe that each of the independent offices that he refers to all report to LAMC and have their budgets approved by the Legislative Assembly Management Commission. We obviously have had difficulty because of the fact that the New Democratic members of that commission have refused to participate in its deliberations and discussions, thus denying us the opportunity to be able to review and approve many of the initiatives.

As I said yesterday in response to a similar question in this House, we are quite prepared to acknowledge the need for resources in some of these independent areas. We recognize that there is work to be done that should be started later this fall, for instance in the boundaries review that takes place as a result of new census data and all of those things particularly that come under the Ombudsman and his need for resources. Yet, if the members of the New Democratic Party do not attend the meetings of LAMC, we cannot have a quorum and we cannot deal with those issues. We on this side are more than willing to be able to see that committee meet and to be able to see it deal with those very real issues that he brings forward.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the politics to the side for now. The question is: What is the Premier himself doing to ensure that these three independent offices of this Legislature are in fact being properly resourced? What is he doing to ensure that, because what happens--LAMC might not meet for another year. What is he doing to ensure that these offices are going to be properly served?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I would caution what I believe is the proposal that is being imputed by the member for Inkster, and that is that I should somehow interact directly with these independent authorities who are the servants of this Legislature and not of the government. That is why they report to LAMC, which is an all-party committee. It is a committee of this Legislature as opposed to a government entity, and it is to maintain that sense of independence of those offices. So, if he is now suggesting that I ought to insert myself in my role as Premier directly with these independent authorities, I think he is wrong. I would certainly decline to do that in favour of the members in this House attempting to find some manner in which they can come to grips with their responsibilities and address the needs of those independent offices.

Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Speaker, let me be more specific with the Premier and ask the Premier: Will he agree, for the need to have these issues dealt with, to allow for a committee then of representatives from all of this Chamber because LAMC apparently is not working, so that a committee in which we can have representatives from the New Democrats, Conservatives and from the Independents, that we can go and find out exactly what these resources are so that we can in fact--because we cannot trust the New Democrats and the Tories in getting this issue dealt with, and this is in fact an independent group of offices that do have resources, that do require, I should say, resources, and there is a responsibility of all of us in this Chamber to ensure that they are being given those adequate resources?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Question.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Will the Premier in fact take some sort of action?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: The question has been put.

Mr. Filmon: I am not sure whether the member for Inkster is wanting me to ride roughshod over all of the procedures and mechanisms that are set up in this House to deal with these independent authorities. I say to him that that is the wrong advice to be giving, in my judgment, respectfully.

I am informed by our government House leader that he believes that progress is being made towards some opportunity to get LAMC reconstituted and to meet and deal with this. Now I have been wrong before, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I know that the government House leader is rarely wrong, so I am accepting his advice.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have been in this Chamber through the course of two emergency doctors strikes. There are presently negotiations going on with approximately 270 rural doctors, self-imposed negotiations by the Minister of Health, who has indicated that there will be a 90-day deadline, indicated there will be a solution and the deadline given is often June 30 or July 1. We are facing a very serious situation, have for some time in rural and northern Manitoba in respect to doctors. I want the Minister of Health to update this House specifically as to what is happening with respect to that agreement and whether or not there will be some resolution to that matter.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I very much appreciate the timely question from the member for Kildonan on this particular matter. As he knows, we struck out some months ago on a 90-day process involving the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Manitoba Medical Association, I believe the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses, the College of Family Practitioners and of course ourselves as a province with the regional health authorities. That committee has worked to really go over and hopefully give some advice on a new model of delivering emergency services throughout the province. I am pleased to indicate today that I think we have the makings of that new model, and as we speak, there are still some discussions going on with some of the organizations. I ultimately would like to have their support for that model as we go forward, but we have fleshed out, I believe, the makings of a new model that is worthy of a try.

Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, can the Minister of Health indicate to this House and the people of Manitoba whether the making of this new agreement will be within or outside of the auspices of the five-year MMA agreement that was negotiated by his predecessor, whether or not this will be a side agreement or whether it will require ratification by the MMA and their members?

Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, again I appreciate that question from the member. The short answer is neither, actually. We are not looking, at this time, to come up with an agreement with the Manitoba Medical Association. What, in fact, we are trying to do is involve them in a process to develop a model that we can provide to the regional health authorities as another tool to provide emergency services. I would hope that model would have the support or endorsement of the Manitoba Medical Association, but when we set out on this process, it was not specifically to arrive at an agreement or a side agreement or an amendment to the documents that he has referenced.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Deputy Speaker, can the minister therefore give assurances to this House and to the people of rural and northern Manitoba that, with respect to the approximately 270 physicians that we are dealing with in health centres, we can be assured that services will be provided on a regular 24-hour basis, as per the norm in these regions, within what period of time, and what is the deadline that we are dealing with?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Again, another highly relevant question to the events of this week that are going on at the current time. Mr. Deputy Speaker, currently in many of our rural facilities--just to put it in context--24-hour emergency services are not offered today, some because physicians have withdrawn those services, others simply that there is not sufficient need or sufficient physicians available to provide that. So currently there is a mix of services around the province.

We are confident that this particular model, as a tool, will satisfy many of the needs that physicians and communities have put forward. I am not so bold as to say that it will satisfy all needs or all physicians in the province, but I suspect that it is a kind of tool that will allow regional health authorities to deliver a high-quality product on a regular basis throughout the province.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Time for Oral Question Period has expired.