Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have this afternoon members from the Pine Falls Paper Company: Mr. Fern Pitre, president; Ashok Narang, chairman of the board; Glen Pennel, vice-president for Woodlands; Michael Sinclair, secretary to the board; Judy Habing, director of communications; and Fred Ayotte, vice-president of finance.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Also, seated in the public gallery, we have thirty-three Grade 9 students from Pinawa Secondary School under the direction of Mr. Brian McKenzie. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): We are committed, of course, on this side to the principles of the Canada Health Act and the principles that allow Canada to have a health system that does not require a big wallet or a large purse to access health care but rather a universal system that is available to all on the basis of medical need. In October 1995 I asked the Premier questions about their position on the federal government's penalties for two-tier private health care, and the Premier took the questions I raised with him as notice. Can the Premier tell us today: What is their policy in dealing with private health care resources in the province of Manitoba, and what has been the impact of those decisions that the provincial government has made on the deductions or penalties by the federal government?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think all Manitobans of all political stripes appreciate and want a public health care system that provides to them the health care that they need, both in a preventative and supportive role but also in a treatment role when they require it. One should appreciate, though, in a province like Manitoba, like in so many others, our system was not built at one particular time but did evolve over a period of time when most of our health care was provided by private institutions, religious orders, et cetera, and it has evolved today to what is by far almost an entirely publicly funded and directed system. We have some difficulty with the holdbacks that the federal government has proposed under the Canada Health Act. Those are matters that are under discussion and negotiation, but they are certainly there, I think, out of the historical basis of our health care system and not because of a policy decision to have a private-public system.

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Mr. Doer: The minister did not answer my question, what your present policy is and what is its impact on deductions and penalties. According to the latest Canada Health Act report '95-96, Manitoba was deducted or fined some $269,000, and we were second only to the province of Alberta, which is well known for its profit health care system in terms of the amount of penalties based on violations of the Canada Health Act and the movement towards a two-tier American-style health care system. I would like to ask the minister: Why is Manitoba second only to Alberta in terms of these fines and deductions, and why are we not proceeding with a universal health care system in the province of Manitoba as we should?

Mr. Praznik: The issue that the member addresses--and I think what the member is attempting to do is use that dispute with the federal government to somehow build the case that we are moving to or want to by policy in Manitoba have a two-tiered health care system. That is not our policy or the direction in which we are advancing. The rules under which we operate that have seen the development of some private clinic opportunities--which, by the way, I have said, in answer to questions from his colleague the critic for Health, that we have trouble with some of that development because it has happened, and one sometimes has to question whether or not work is being funnelled there when it could be done in our publicly funded system. Those rules have existed through a number of governments, including the government on which he sat.

Madam Speaker, we are attempting to deal with that. Ultimately what we want, I believe, is the same as the member wants, a publicly funded system that can deal with all of the needs of Manitobans.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the government why it will not follow in with other provinces like Saskatchewan, not continue a two-tier health care system and just remember that debate we have had in this Chamber for the last couple of weeks where this government was going to impose user fees on spina bifida patients, looking for $400,000 in our health care system. Would it not be better to put that $269,000 towards those patients, spina bifida patients in Manitoba, rather than looking at user fees over here and a two-tier health care system over there? Does it not make sense to stop the Alberta health care system here in Manitoba and have a universal health care system accessible to all without this $269,000 penalty or fine to the province of Manitoba in terms of its citizens?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, the member's analysis of the numbers does not quite add up, because the dollars we have not received. If that service had been provided in our system, we would have had to pay for it, so the dollars would not be available for other things. The member should not try to leave that impression in the House.

Madam Speaker, in the province of Alberta they have made other policy decisions or recommendations in the direction which they want to go. Those are not the same as our direction in Manitoba. We obviously want to have, and it has been our effort to have, a publicly funded system, not a two-tier system. We are working towards that, but let us remember, in some of these areas we still have work to do to be able to have enough services available, particularly in those areas where there is a growing need to be able to accommodate all of that. That is the goal that we hope to achieve in a very short while.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health, and I will give the Minister of Health's answer first: We are putting into place a transparent process. We will ask the board of the Winnipeg Regional Authority to deal with this issue. We do not want to spend dollars, but we are going to better organize.

Madam Speaker, am I asking about emergency room backups; am I asking about waiting lists for surgery; am I asking for waiting lists for bone scans, the longest in the country; am I asking for waiting lists for diagnostic scans; am I asking about waiting lists for dialysis? Can the minister outline specifically what he is going to do about the waiting list for dialysis and the other waiting lists that we have raised day in and day out in this Chamber for the last several weeks?

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Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Kildonan would like, I am sure, to have a very simple answer to a very complex question, and that is not always possible. In the area of dialysis, we have discussed it in Question Period in this Chamber before. We have discussed it in Estimates. We have a crisis looming in dialysis.

The number of cases, I just share with him. In 1992 our total number of dialysis cases, I believe, was 390; it is well over 525 this year. We have a growing number of people in need. We are attempting to keep up with that need. We have been running closer to the margin than I think any of us would have liked. We have other centres that have been approved or are about to be approved. We put in some other capacity in the system that is coming online.

Today, we have a situation where we had two additional cases onto our system, one totally unexpected in an individual who moved from Edmonton--and it did put some additional pressure on the system--who has been accommodated in the Brandon facility.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, how does the minister expect Manitobans to find it acceptable that a crisis in dialysis that is raised regularly in the Chamber since 1992 and the minister acknowledged has more than doubled since 1992 is not the result of pathetic planning and budget cuts by this government and minister after minister standing up and saying, we are going to do something, rather than dealing directly with the issue?

Will the minister table specifically the plan for once that the province is going to follow with respect to dialysis, so we do not have to stand up in here day in and day out and ask the minister to do something?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, if the member for Kildonan would look at the facts as to what has been done, he would not have to get so angry over this particular matter. Since '92-93 we have added, I understand, 20 additional stations that can accommodate 88 patients. Those came with complete funding and operating dollars. We have been putting more resources year after year into dialysis.

The trouble, of course, is that our need in this area has expanded faster. We currently have a centre approved, I believe, for another expansion in Dauphin. We have two other rural centres that are very close to the approval stages. Details are being worked out. We have a program for nurses who run the equipment that has been approved, I believe will start on the 10th of August, because one difficulty is recruiting the staff to run the stations.

Madam Speaker, this is not just a simple matter. There is a lot of detail to it, and I think the member would serve the debate better if we did deal with the detail rather than to sometimes in fact--unfactual comments on his part.

Mr. Chomiak: Will the minister, who mouthed the same words as his previous two predecessors in that portfolio, explain why there was a plan three years ago for an expansion and for dialysis that was put on hold by this government after promising in the election and still remains on hold and frustrates individuals in the system and patients who require care, when in fact machines and the ability of staffing those machines could deal with this crisis?

They have had a plan for three years and froze it, failed to act on it after promising it in an election campaign.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I have said to the member that we have added 20 additional stations since 1992 that can accommodate 88 additional staff. We have a number of other expansions that we are working through the details of now to move towards construction and getting them into operation. So let it not stand on the record of this House that this government or my predecessor the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) have done nothing. We have been moving ahead with this. We obviously need more resources in this area, and we are in the process of establishing those centres.

Madam Speaker, it just is not a matter of committing dollars. It takes a great deal of planning and effort to get those stations into operation, and that is what we are doing.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health a question on doctor recruitment up north. That is, he goes around telling people, on one hand, that the regional health authorities are now equipped to address the issue of a shortage of doctors in northern Manitoba, particularly in The Pas, but at the same time he told members--and he is quoted in the paper as saying--of the Health Care Liaison Committee in February when he met with them, three months ago, that in six weeks this department would develop a doctor recruitment strategy for The Pas and northern Manitoba.

I would like to ask the minister now to table that particular doctor recruitment strategy this afternoon here.

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Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am not sure what the member references, but the work that we have underway right now is a committee that we have had in place for somewhat over two months that involves representatives of the Manitoba Medical Association, the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses whose first charge is to deal with the emergency situation and is also, secondly, to be able to develop a plan province wide. I know the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) and the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) do not like the word "transparent," but one of the problems we have in the whole issue of physician remuneration is an ad hoc approach that, quite frankly, has not worked over the last 30 years.

So, Madam Speaker, we have the parties to the table. They are working at it. Our staff are also working with those northern areas, but I cannot produce doctors out of a hat. They have to be recruited; they have to be interested in being in those communities, and it has been a long, hard, difficult fight over quite a number of years.

Mr. Lathlin: I think the minister is aware that right now there are eight doctors left in The Pas. This summer, when they go on holidays, only four will be left in The Pas.

I would like to ask the minister: What plan does he have in place for The Pas when that eventuality comes this summer in The Pas when those people go on holidays? What plan does he have in order that people in The Pas will have access to doctor services, just like the rest of Manitoba?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member for The Pas has been in office, like myself, for some time. We all have communities in which doctors are sometimes in short supply and take holidays during the period. The member, I would hope, would have been aware of our locum tenens program within the department where we do in fact pay doctors on a certain basis to fill in during these periods in areas where doctors or physicians are taking holidays or we have seasonal fluctuations in demand. That program has been in place for many years and I am assuming will accommodate The Pas this year when doctors are on holidays.

Mr. Lathlin: I would like to ask the Minister of Health one last question, and that is the doctor recruitment strategy that he referred to. Here is what he told the Health Care Liaison Committee, co-chaired by Ronnie Evans from Norway House and the mayor of the town of The Pas, that in six weeks he would have a strategy in place, three months ago. What time frame is he now looking at in order that that strategy be completed and implemented?

Mr. Praznik: Now that the member for The Pas has identified the meeting, there were other components to that meeting. First of all, what he talked about was the 90-day committee that I have identified, which I hope we will have a report on the first part of that by the end of this month. Secondly, when we talked to northern chiefs about health care, as they are in the process of negotiating a transfer from Health and Welfare Canada, they talked about the doctors who are paid through that program and also working to co-ordinate their use throughout the system. So, Madam Speaker, those chiefs were coming with part of the solution. Part of that work that was left, as they organize their own structure, is to work with us. I do not think the member has put all the details of that discussion on the record of this House.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, if there is any doubt of the severity of the shortage of physicians in rural and northern Manitoba, it is outlined in a letter, and I would like to table copies of this from the chair, Mr. Merv Toderian, of the Burntwood Regional Health Authority, who states that in the Burntwood region the problem is reaching crisis proportion and further states: It is obvious that what you have been doing--this is addressed to the minister--is not addressing the need for physicians in northern and rural Manitoba.

In light of the crisis situation, which we all know is the case in many areas of rural and northern Manitoba, I would like to ask the minister what new initiatives is he prepared to take to ensure that rural and northern Manitobans have proper medical services, something that on a daily basis is eroding into a crisis shortage of doctors.

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Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I know when I met with the RHA this winter, this matter was discussed. I also had the opportunity to meet with one of the departing physicians. In fact, the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) and I also spent some time with that particular individual. The former minister put in place the Burntwood Clinic model with salaried positions and, to be blunt, the real problem here has been the inability to find the interest in physicians who want to practise in northern Manitoba. It is a problem. We have changed the funding mechanism, and the problem is finding physicians who actually want to go there, live and practise medicine. It is not an easy issue; I will concede that totally to the member.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, will the minister address the concern expressed by the chair of the regional health authority that he just recently appointed which indicates and references the lack of success on the part of your department to address the shortage of physicians in rural and northern Manitoba? Will the minister look at ways in which the provincial government can work with local communities instead of dumping the problem on local communities? It is reaching a crisis situation; we need action.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I think the member for Thompson has hit upon part of this issue. It is one in which the community has to be involved in recruiting physicians. There are other communities in rural Manitoba that are isolated that have taken steps in recruiting physicians. In the community of Pinawa, for example, they went without doctor services for a period of time. They made a very concerted effort to recruit as a community, through their health district, physicians from South Africa. They now have, I believe, two who have come there. [interjection] The member for The Pas makes the point, how far is Pinawa from Winnipeg. An hour and a half. Those areas are more difficult. That is part of the reason why it is hard to recruit.

There are other communities that have found incentives to recruit physicians. In fact, I believe in the Pinawa case they made housing available to those physicians. So I would encourage the member. We are prepared to work with the member in Thompson to help develop some of those innovative community solutions to help recruit physicians. We need his involvement too.

Mr. Ashton: A final supplementary: Will the minister not recognize that communities have been working day and night throughout rural and northern Manitoba and that now the regional health authority, which has been working and I have been working with them--we all have in our own community--is saying to the minister: We need the assistance of the provincial government; we need some structural changes.

When will the minister address the structural changes needed to ensure that we have equal distribution of physicians throughout rural and northern Manitoba?

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, my predecessor in this office approved, I believe it was somewhat before Christmas, the Burntwood Clinic model that is a significant structure that has not had the success yet in recruiting physicians. If the member is suggesting today--and I can only take it from the logical conclusion of his remark--that the province needs to allocate where physicians practise, which would, in essence, take physicians out of Winnipeg and place them into other areas, if that is what the member is suggesting, I would hope that he would be very, very clear about that. That is a significant change, and that is where we may in fact end up, but let us not leave the impression that that is an easy or simple solution that will always solve the problem. But I would like the member to please state clearly that that is the policy of the New Democratic Party.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Premier (Mr. Filmon) or the Minister of Government Services. It is with respect to the flood of the century. Today we received a copy, and it is actually a wonderful copy, for children that are receiving a tremendous amount of stress because of the flood, and I would applaud the government on its actions with respect to trying to address the issue with the children, but there are many questions that are out there that the parents have in terms of compensation.

My question to the government is: Does the government have any goals set in terms of trying to resolve some of those controversial issues dealing with the issues such as compensation and others that are causing a phenomenal amount of stress out in our communities?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, as we all know, the flood of the magnitude that it was this spring has certainly taken its toll in terms of the emotional impact on people, some of the frustrations that they have, the inability for many of them to be able to return to their homes. Some have questions about whether in fact they do have a home to return to. I would like to just inform the honourable member that, with regard to many of these issues that people have raised, we are attempting to address them as quickly as possible. We are in the process of trying to commit more inspectors for inspections, in terms of follow-up with people with information about the program and how it works and the process that they can go through, and as far as the people that have homes that they may not be able to return to, certainly to place those as a priority with regard to resolving those issues for those people.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, our office is still receiving--and I pose the question to the minister--calls with respect to individuals that are still waiting to get some sort of an assessment of compensation. Can the minister indicate to the House what degree of a backlog is there, and does the government have any idea when that backlog of individuals will in fact be addressed?

Mr. Pitura: To date we have received approximately 2,900 applications for disaster assistance, and I am informed that we have approximately 800 inspections done of that number. I am advised by my staff that the inspections should all be completed by the end of this month.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, one of the issues that was raised to me was to ask the question--in the application for assistance form, it was provided in English and English only. The concern was in many of the communities that were affected, such as Ste. Agathe, why were they not provided one in French that would allow for many within that community whose first language is in fact French--especially when you put it in the context that this wonderful book that I applauded earlier is in both official languages. Why would that not have been taken into consideration?

Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I do not have a specific answer for the honourable member on that issue, which I will investigate and find out as to the whys. Offhand, there was an urgency to having the forms available very quickly and, for obvious reasons, having the forms printed in two languages immediately would have taken somewhat more time, but I will investigate further and provide the honourable member with the necessary information.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice. This is regarding the Bauder sexual assault case. Would the minister confirm our understanding from the family of the victim that this case shifted between five prosecutors over the 18 months, taking 12 appearances, three or four of which were required because the presentence report apparently went astray and, if so, is this acceptable to the minister?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, my department is continually striving to improve the services and duties that they perform for the province, for the people of Manitoba and, from time to time, cases take longer than others. I would remind the member that, if there is an undue length of time in the court's opinion, there is, of course, a jurisdiction of the court to make specific orders. In this specific case, the court did not, in fact, make any orders, so I assume that the adjournments in this particular case were warranted.

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister then confirm this--what the family says in a letter to him--that no protection order was sought for the child victim after sentencing, even when the family asked for one? Is this acceptable to the minister?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I will have to take a close look at that particular issue but, as I understand it, the family did contact the Prosecutions branch in respect of that specific issue, and a specific order was made at the request of the family. So I am not quite sure what the member is referring to, but I think when the family did call specifically on the prosecutor, the prosecutor responded in a very prompt and favourable manner.

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Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister, who should be aware that as of yesterday no such order had yet been obtained--what is the minister doing to address the family's concerns set out in their letter, that Bauder's statements about victim conduct were not vigorously challenged at every opportunity? Would he consider a directive to seek better justice in this regard, especially for child victims?

Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I will not go into detail about how the appropriate process is for the member to file a complaint. If he wishes to file a complaint, certainly the director of Prosecutions is always open to speak with members of the family in this respect. Again, the member is putting inaccurate information on the record in terms of the Crown's position.

I do have here a copy of both factums of the parties, and I would in fact like to table a copy of the factum of the respondent, that is the Crown in the appeal, where, in fact, their specific response was that the circumstances of the offence are serious, appellant had sexual intercourse with his 12-year-old babysitter on more than one occasion. In doing so, he breached his position of trust involving a vulnerable victim. I can hardly see that the Crown took any conciliatory approach in respect of what the member is even suggesting.

Mr. Mackintosh: On a new question. As a follow-up to that response, which I would suggest is misleading--I am being generous, Madam Speaker. Would the minister not also confirm that the factums did not deal with the issue of victim consent whatsoever? In fact, when the issue of victim consent came up at the Provincial Court, the Court of Appeal, the Crown sat silent. They did not raise the issue either through a victim impact statement, through objection or argument.

Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, I am not going to get involved in the debate on what happened at the Court of Appeal, but I can indicate from the transcript that occurred in front of the Provincial Court judge, she obviously did not agree that the issue of consent was relevant. In respect of the Court of Appeal, the position of the Crown is very clear. There is no transcript of the record, but I am advised that the position of the Crown was consistent with the position set out in our factum. I can hardly see how the issue of consent would even be relevant and why would the Crown put that into their factum if, in fact, what we are dealing with here is a vulnerable child. For him to suggest that there should be an issue of consent, I find very puzzling.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister not answer the question, I think the essential question of this whole issue, and that is: Would he not consider a directive to his department to seek better justice to ensure that victim conduct is challenged for its relevancy at every stage, including plea bargaining on, and in that way we can better ensure justice for victims, especially child victims? Send directives just like you did for zero tolerance.

Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I think the Crown attorneys have been very clear in respect of the issue and the position taken by the department, and in that respect there is no requirement to send any type of directive. What I do want to indicate is that the department has had a long series of initiatives to bring the victim into the justice system to ensure that the victim is not forgotten.

I would suggest that is a far cry from the policies under the NDP when the policy was to in fact throw women in jail in domestic disputes where they refused to testify. I think this government has brought that policy a long way to ensure that these victims are respected and that their input into the process is highly regarded.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Education. Last week the CIBC ended their contract with the province of Nova Scotia and will no longer provide student loans for post-secondary students in that province. They cited the increase in student fees, huge increases in bankruptcies and unstable youth employment as reasons for their withdrawal. Manitoba has a similar contract with CIBC, which is due to be reviewed in the next three months.

I would like to ask the minister if she would table in this session of the House a full account of the consolidated debt of Manitoba's students and tell us what steps she has taken to review this situation with CIBC.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): We have not had the types of problems here in Manitoba that Nova Scotia has experienced. We have the agreement with CIBC, which has proven to be very beneficial for Manitoba students. We also have entered into an agreement with the Royal Bank, on a similar agreement with them, so we have an additional 85 locations now for students in Manitoba.

I will endeavour to provide the information the member has requested. I do not have that here with me. I do not know how much information regarding students that might be confidential is available in terms of names, et cetera, of people. Certainly, I can provide her with as much information in getting an update as we like. In fact, if she wishes this afternoon in Estimates to raise that, we might have more time to go through the kind of detail she is looking for.

Ms. Friesen: Would the minister, who must surely be aware that the average debt now of Manitoba students graduating is $20,000 and rising rapidly, tell us what she is going to do about the fact that Manitoba is the only province, I believe, apart from the province of Quebec, which has no debt remission policy? Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, all of them have debt remission. Manitoba has no assistance for students as a result of the changes that this minister brought in 1994.

Mrs. McIntosh: In terms of financial assistance for students and access to university or college or post-secondary education of other sorts as well, we have a tremendous ability for students to access that education. The member is correct that students today owe more when they graduate. They also earn more. I was interested this morning talking to an individual, who said to me that her student loan when she graduated some 20 years ago was some $20,000, but her earning potential in that first year was between $4,000 and $5,000. So, certainly, we see the starting salaries, particularly in the professions, being much higher than ever they were, and the student loans on a percentage basis, if the member wanted to do the averaging out from 30 years ago or 20 years ago versus today, while they owe more, they also earn more.

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Yesterday when I asked the Minister of Health about our overtaxed Ombudsman, his answers were frivolous, inaccurate and misleading, so I hope he can be serious and responsive today.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health, who well knows that the MMA call SmartHealth dumb health and who see his legislation as a way of making a gigantic, huge information grab palatable, what he is doing to heal the breach between himself and the MMA, especially after he has deliberately refused the MMA a position on the privacy and confidentialities of our health committee.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I do not know where to start, quite frankly, in responding to all the comments of the member. First of all, the member indicated that I refused the MMA membership on the committee that has done the work on the legislation, whose work is now completed. The College of Physicians and Surgeons, as the representative body for physicians, were part of that committee, as were the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses. We did not involve the labour organizations in that committee, but even having said that, Madam Speaker, when we had the full briefing and the full discussion and the full consultation on the bill, the Manitoba Medical Association had a representative there. We were quite interested in their comments, and I enjoyed hearing what they had to say.

Ms. McGifford: Well, quite clearly, the minister refused to hear the question, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the minister, who knows--I am glad he brought up MARN--that MARN believe their professional standards and integrity depend on a privacy commissioner, to explain why he has refused the advice of this very respected self-regulatory body.

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Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I wish the member had been with me when we did the consultation. Perhaps I should invite her next time to come so she can be accurate in her response, but we had a very lengthy discussion about this particular issue with all of the various stakeholders' groups there. We went through the issues of privacy commissioner versus Ombudsman, which really is not an issue. The issue is the powers people have, and one of the key powers that is necessary for whoever has the responsibility is the power to audit. We put that into the bill. The only outstanding issue is whether that individual can have a binding order or not, and we have said we will see how it works and consider it in five years. This is not the great issue she is trying to make it to be.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, with a final supplementary question.

Ms. McGifford: Well, he is wrong. That is not the only outstanding issue.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Osborne, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member was recognized for a final supplementary question, which requires no postamble and no preamble.

Ms. McGifford: I am sorry that the Minister of Health did not invite me to that meeting.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health why he continues to ignore the expertise of the majority of his stakeholders, why he refuses to create a privacy commissioner to oversee the legislation leaving the work to an overtaxed Ombudsman.

Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, for the second day in a row to the member for Osborne: The reason the Ombudsman is overtaxed today is because the New Democratic Party--and the member for Transcona said it yesterday--they are holding that position for ransom on other issues.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, the minister is once again putting inaccurate information on the record. We have fully supported the most recent application of the Ombudsman's office for staff. By the way, they have been understaffed for a number of years, according to the Ombudsman, and we would appreciate it if the government--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson certainly did not have a point of order.

Mr. Praznik: What the member for Osborne and her colleagues have to realize is the Ombudsman is an officer of this Legislature. Their budgets are approved by the Legislative Assembly Management Commission. Every time that group met, New Democrats walked out. Walked out, Madam Speaker, because they refused to grant the resources.

So let it not be said by the member for Osborne that she supports that office. What a hypocrite. So the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) said yesterday they were holding the Ombudsman for ransom. He said it in this House. Let them accept responsibility for their actions for once.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, with a new question

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Yes, Madam Speaker, on a new question. I really would again like to ask the Minister of Health to stop being frivolous and misleading, and in response I would like to table a letter from our House leader to the government House leader and ask him why is he insisting on deliberately misleading this House and accusing the New Democratic Party--[interjection] I am sorry. If I could quote from the letter--

Madam Speaker: Would the honourable member for Osborne please pose her question now?

Ms. McGifford: The question is: Why is this minister deliberately misleading this House? Clearly, our House leader has said that he can assure the government that our caucus would strongly urge you--that is the government House leader--to respond positively to the initiatives put forth by the Provincial Auditor, the Ombudsman and Elections Manitoba. These are requests for monies.

Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, regardless of the merits or lack of merits of the points put forward by the member for Osborne or the Minister of Health, the member for Osborne knows or ought to know that she should never accuse anyone in this place of deliberately misleading, which she did in her question, and I would ask that that matter be addressed by her.

Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, I believe, was up on a point of order. The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, Madam Speaker, I am sure that the member was meaning to say "misleading the House," because definitely the Minister of Health was misleading the House. Our position is quite clear, and I am sort of surprised that the Minister of Health now seems to be speaking for the government on House matters. I would suggest, perhaps, that the minister allow the government House leader to speak for his caucus on House matters. That might help us deal with this matter, I think, more effectively than what we just saw a few minutes ago.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable government House leader indeed does have a point of order. The honourable member for Osborne used the words "deliberately mislead," and I would ask that she withdraw the word "deliberately."

Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word "deliberately." He was merely misleading us.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I understand that it has been the practice of Speakers when the time for Question Period has expired to at least finish the question that is in progress and the answer. Now the honourable member for Osborne did ask a question prior to the expiration of Question Period. I indeed rose on a point of order, at which time I understand the clock stops, and then the question remains unanswered. I do not know, but I believe Your Honour's practice is to allow that last question to be asked and answered.

Mr. Ashton: On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, I am not sure anyone can recall with any great detail what has happened in the last five minutes, so I suggest perhaps that you review Hansard, and indeed if a question was formally raised, we would have no problem extending Question Period tomorrow to give the Minister of Health the opportunity to perhaps for once answer a question on this important matter.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader, I have been informed that indeed it has been past practice that once a question has been asked right near the end of the expiry time, and it actually expired while the honourable member was posing her question, the response also be allowed.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to quickly pose his reply.

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, we have obviously touched on a soft spot, and the New Democrats do not want the answer, but I say to the member for Osborne, we all heard her colleague the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) say across the floor of this House yesterday that they were doing that because they had another agenda; that was pressure. So she should get together with her colleagues and sort out their policy.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

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