The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this section of the Committee of Supply is the Estimates for Decentralization. Since there is no ministerial salary appropriation for Decentralization, we shall proceed directly to the consideration of this Estimates line, which is on page 131 of the main Estimates book. Did the minister responsible wish to make an opening statement?

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister responsible for Decentralization): It is a pleasure to discuss the government's decentralization initiative, Mr. Chairman and colleagues. As you know, we announced the initiative in March of 1990, and the objective of decentralization has been to improve the social and economic climate of rural communities in our province. The committee that was formed was tasked with identifying programs and positions within the public service that could be relocated. The intent was to generate economic activity in rural communities without negatively affecting the level or quality of service to Manitobans.

Another goal was to improve access to public sector services for residents living in rural Manitoba communities. I believe very sincerely that we have succeeded in accomplishing all of these things. As of March 31, 1997, 669.15 public sector positions have been relocated to 61 communities in rural Manitoba. Of these positions, 180 were new and/or vacant positions, while 489 positions had incumbents. There were a total of 311 employees who chose to relocate with their positions. Another 178 chose to stay in Winnipeg. Of the 178, 37 retired, 25 resigned and 115 have been placed in other positions. Only one has not been redeployed.

Meanwhile, decentralization has had a significant economic impact on the 61 communities participating in decentralization. The following numbers tell the real story: $26 million in direct payroll has been transferred to rural Manitoba; $9.1 million dollars in new construction activity has created 3,500 weeks of work; $3.8 million in tenant improvements, 90 percent of which have used local tradespeople and has generated added employment; $1.97 million in annual lease payments are now being paid in rural communities. All of the above has generated additional economic spin-off benefits, such as increased housing construction and housing sales, as well as expansion of the service sector in the affected communities.

Our original commitment when we announced the decentralization was to relocate 693 public service positions and, as I have already stated, we decentralized 669. There are a number of outstanding commitments we still need to address. We will continue to look at opportunities to further decentralize public service positions to rural Manitoba communities. However, we will only proceed in cases where there is no loss of efficiency or effectiveness of service to Manitobans. In other words, we will continue but when and where it makes sense.

I know that many people think that the decentralization initiative is complete but, as I have indicated, there are still outstanding commitments that have to be made. We intend to work very diligently at ensuring that those commitments are fulfilled . My department, along with other departments, are actively looking for positions that can be decentralized to fulfil those commitments. We are working with the communities. I look forward to completing this entire decentralization initiative hopefully by the end of this year. But this is not an initiative that ends with the fulfilment of the positions that we had indicated. As a matter of fact, where it makes sense and when it makes sense we will continue to look for opportunities and will, indeed, encourage decentralization as an ongoing part of the operations of government.

With that, I conclude my opening remarks.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic have an opening statement?

Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): No, not a real opening comment, just because basically the minister has indicated in his opening remarks some of the things I was going to ask. Looking at the '96-97 decentralization and the '97-98, nothing has changed. In all the pages, from page 1 to 11, the only thing that has changed again is these flyaway numbers. On page 10, Estimate of Expenditure for '97-98 is zero. Last year it was $100,000 just to cover and clean up expenses from the '96-97. There has not been any decentralization or any appropriation for it since '93-94.

The minister basically has just talked about the good things that decentralization has done since '90-91. Now he says that it is all finished and done with, but we are going to keep it open. I am hoping that they keep it open. I am hoping that there are going to be some further decentralization of jobs for communities. We talked in Estimates about improving the services and quality of life in rural Manitoba. Then we should be looking at that and being able to provide the different jobs that may be available to move to rural Manitoba to provide the services. Natural Resources, Highways--the Department of Highways is cutting jobs in rural Manitoba within the department. So I do not want the minister to think that he can just give us a good-news talk about decentralization, because there has been no action in it whatsoever. I am hoping that it does not go away and die, and that this government and this minister realize that the services for our rural communities are very important. If we can provide some jobs in those areas, service jobs, needed jobs in our infrastructure for Natural Resources, for our Environment, that that be taken into serious consideration in the very near future. I would rather see something better announced than a book with a change of one number over 10 pages over the last three Estimate processes.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I thank the honourable member for those comments. If the Minister responsible for Decentralization has staff present, we invite them to join us at the table now.

Mr. Derkach: Just to respond, Mr. Chair. The member has to acknowledge that there are 669 more positions in rural Manitoba today than there were when we took office and defeated the NDP. Therefore, it has been a very positive step in terms of where this government has taken this province in decentralization.

Yes, there has not been a lot of activity in that decentralization initiative over the past year. However, I indicated to the member that our commitment is to fulfill those positions that are still outstanding. But, as the member knows, the size of government has shrunk substantially since we took office, that indeed we still continue to look at how we can become a more efficient and more effective government. The member knows we are the lowest-cost government on a per capita basis in all of Canada. That was not achieved by simply not paying attention to numbers, staff positions and that sort of thing.

So in spite of downsizing of government, in spite of becoming one of the leanest and most effective governments in Canada, we still managed to decentralize 669 positions. I am telling the member that our commitment is to fulfill the obligations that we have made to those communities. It is not going to be easy, but we are currently working at that part of it. I hope to have a positive report for the House and for the member in the next year in terms of having completely satisfied the commitments that were made originally.

I would like to also impress on the member that this is not the end, that we will continue to work, as a normal course of business, at identifying positions that can be serviced out of rural Manitoba as effectively as they can be from within the city. But decentralization is not a be-all and end-all to economic development in rural Manitoba. It was simply meant to enhance the economic development climate of a community and also to provide services to rural Manitobans closer than they were before we came to office, so that indeed rural Manitobans could feel as though they were part of the total picture of the operations of this province.

* (1740)

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister can actually sit here today and tell me that there are--and it says so on the paper, it says so in the book. As I said, one little number has changed. He is going to tell me that there are still 669.15 decentralized jobs. He said so for the end of March 31 of '96. He said so again for March 31, '97. Are you telling me that those jobs are still there?

Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, what I am telling the member is that the number of positions that were decentralized to rural Manitoba were 669.15, I believe. That is what was done through the decentralization initiative.

Now, as I have also indicated, the government has downsized. So, therefore, some of those positions, if they have become redundant or if they are being scaled back because government is shrinking where there has been, I guess, the opportunity to create more efficiency, that has been done.

So I am not going to give the impression to the member that, indeed, 669.15 positions, those that were decentralized in the beginning are still out there, because things have changed. I know in a few communities there have been increases to staff in those offices. Now, while there have been decreases in other departments, some departments have had increases. We have not added those increases into the numbers either.

So, in fairness, what we are talking about is what was originally targeted for decentralization and what we decentralized as an initiative of decentralization. But, in terms of budget process, we go through that on an annual basis, and on an annual basis you make adjustments.

Mr. Clif Evans: The minister did not really answer the question, because then he is saying to me, well, maybe there were some changes; we are not sure. But he is telling me in the Estimates book, Summary by Department and Crown Corporation as at March 31, 1997, are these numbers, but he has indicated to me that may not be so, and we are not really sure.

For the year-end of '97-98, how can he even include Manitoba Telephone System as a decentralization now? It is not a Crown corporation anymore. With some of the other departments, if that is the case, then I would probably appreciate the minister putting out something a lot better than this which was the same as this, which was the same as the previous one, and be up front with rural Manitobans as far as decentralization goes.

Sure, they have accomplished what they hoped to accomplish, just about. Nobody is saying that the initiative was not supported in the first place. [interjection]

Mr. Derkach: It was not. Mr. Chairman, the opposition did not support decentralization.

An Honourable Member: Oh, we did so.

Mr. Derkach: They were antidecentralization and spoke many times in the House in opposition to decentralization, but we still moved ahead with it.

Mr. Clif Evans: On a point of order, the minister has indicated that we--and that includes this member. Well, this member has never ever at one time, either in public office or private office or private business, ever said that I do not support decentralization.

So, if the minister wants to make accusations that there were people within the party that did not support it, let him name names.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.

However, those numbers will not change whether it is now or five years from now. If in fact that is all that we decentralize, we will continue to say, as long as we have to put out an Estimates book, that that is what number were decentralized.

What is out there today, in some instances, is more. In some offices there are more staff today than there are in the booklet, but we are not reporting on the state of positions in rural Manitoba. What we are doing is reporting on the decentralization of positions in the decentralization initiative. [interjection] He is disputing the fact that we should be reflecting the 669 positions, minus whatever has been reduced as a result of the budget process, plus whatever has been added to the offices.

That is not the way that reporting is done under decentralization, nor should it be. If the member wants to know how many positions of government there are in rural Manitoba, we could probably provide that for him. I would be happy to do that.

Mr. Clif Evans: In closing, all I would like the minister to provide me are the real numbers for the decentralization positions that have been decentralized that have been provided into Manitoba, not this. And if that is the case, and what the minister says is true, then perhaps let the government say so that that is the reason. Do not put out something like this, slapping yourself on the back for years after the decentralization has been completed saying that--you may have done a fine job as far as decentralization, but you are not continuing to do a fine job. Pass.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): 27.5. Decentralization showing no amount provided for expenditures related to the decentralization initiative--pass.

Resolution 27.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding zero dollars for Other Appropriations-Decentralization for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1998.

This now concludes the consideration of the Estimates for Decentralization. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this section are the Estimates for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

Is it the will of the committee to call it six o'clock? Agreed? [agreed]