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Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Northern Affairs; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs.

When the committee last sat, it had been having a general discussion concerning the Estimates. Is it the will of the committee to continue with a general discussion? [agreed]

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I just wanted to raise a few issues. I was glad to hear the response from the minister in the House when I raised the issue about another urban aboriginal strategy, because there have been consultant reports after reports. I have been here since September 11 of 1990, and since I have been here, that I can only speak of, we have raised that issue every year about an aboriginal strategy, what has been happening, when it is going to be implemented, and we always got the same answer: soon, soon, soon.

That is why I was pleased to hear your answer, and I hope you are committed and serious about taking action, because in the urban aboriginal community there is a lot of work to be done. You know that a lot of individuals need a lot of training. There are a lot of individuals that need real job opportunities. I was very skeptical. I am so far very skeptical about what really will happen.

If it is just a ploy to deflect criticism or if it is a ploy to slow people down, I hope it is not and I give you the benefit of the doubt. I will wait and see what actually happens because we have been waiting for many years. I have been in discussion with a lot of people. I know a lot of aboriginal people. I see just by the names that you have on your committee that you have excellent, excellent individuals on there that will do a very good job. I am sure that you will get some good recommendations.

The other aboriginal strategies that I tabled, there were also excellent recommendations in those reports. I hope you will read those. If there is something missed from this report that you will be bringing forward, that you will add those on because there is a lot of work to be done. I know, I am not naive enough to think that only one level of government is going to solve everything. It is going to take the work of the federal government, the provincial government, the city, aboriginal leaders and especially the aboriginal community, the aboriginal grassroots people.

I hope that there will be processes in place when you go around and do your consultation process, that you will encourage and find ways of attracting the grassroots people to have their say because a lot of times what the people want, what the people need sometimes because of everybody's busyness and over commitments, that some of these grassroots issues are missed. I think it is very, very important that you have some papers, local papers that get around, like the Weetamah and Mesanaygun and all different papers, and I hope you will get it, will advertise community meetings.

I hope that not all the meetings will just be held in the aboriginal centre. I hope you will consider Turtle Island. It is a huge community centre. The surrounding community is pretty well mostly all aboriginal people. I am sure you will get good feedback from there, because there are a lot of individuals that form various organizations and are associated with various communities there, are very community-minded and committed to the community. The Lord Selkirk residents association is just one start. Right across you have the friendship centre. So there are a lot of individuals that I am sure would be willing to come out and share their experiences and offer you some advice.

I do not want to dwell on that. As I said, I am encouraged by the makeup of the committee, and I take your sincerity at face value today, and I hope that you meant what you said in the House, that something positive will happen. That gives me some encouragement. As I said, I have been waiting since I was elected for some action.

The other thing that I hope you will follow up on as a new minister is the commitment by your government that was made in November to start immediately looking at the royal commission. You stated--I know that because I had to sign off the pair; I know that you are going to the ministers' meeting--the royal commission would be one of the items on the agenda, and I hope that you will be fighting on behalf of us aboriginal people in trying to get some of the recommendations from the royal commission implemented in Manitoba to make things a little more tolerable and to give our people some encouragement and opportunities for training and employment opportunities.

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I do not have to tell you, but you know in the near future 25 percent of the whole workforce in Winnipeg will be made up by aboriginal people, 25 percent. If we want to be sincere and have opportunities for aboriginal people in the city of Winnipeg, I think we should have started yesterday in the whole area of training needs. Look at the skills areas that will be forthcoming, forecasts of the skills areas, and immediately start some training programs. I think that is crucial, or what you will see is that the aboriginal people will be just taking low income paying jobs, and I do not think that is what I want to see happen. I would like to see the aboriginal community have the opportunity to get meaningful employment and raise the standard of living that some individuals have to live under today. That is one area I hope you will seriously address.

On the subject of jobs, I do not have to remind you, but in northern Manitoba, in a lot of the northern communities, there is a high, high rate of unemployment in those communities. A lot of people are only seasonal workers. Some of the jobs only come during the summer when it comes to building infrastructure, schools or roads. But I wonder if your government would--and I hope you will take it to your caucus--consider the opportunity that, when the government is awarding contracts, government contracts awarded to contractors, there be a stipulation in there of, say, 25, 30 percent of the workforce must be aboriginal individuals.

I think that would help the North and help the aboriginal community because there are people now that have some years in apprenticeship training. There are some people that have had training and experience in heavy equipment and truck drivers and stuff. So there is more of an expanded labour pool in the North now than there ever has been in the past, and I do not think it would be very difficult if an individual contracted with the government and it was written into that contract 25 or whatever the government sets, especially in lieu now where the government has taken over UI offices, so they will have ready access to the information of individuals with their skills and their work experiences.

So you could match jobs, and fine, if there were not enough individuals in the North that could fill those jobs, then sure, fine, let the contractors hire whomever they wish. I think that if we looked at some kind of motivator or some form of an action plan, we could try and get more people employed. It is the same thing where we hear from the small, rural farm communities, like, we are losing our youth. The same thing is happening in the North. I know a lot of young, very bright individuals have had to leave the North because there were no employment opportunities. If we, as a government, try to look at plans and encourage training and employment and keep our youth in the North, hopefully, expand and develop a lot of the communities, a lot of the opportunities from work experience and education, some of the individuals will have the opportunity to work on reserves because of the whole aspect of self-government coming into place. It is so crucial that government address that.

We talk about different things that governments could do or the whole issue of youth crime and gang activity, the hopelessness of a lot of our youths, and the difficulty of opportunities.

I know the minister was at the friendship centre before. I know that you have some understanding of what the friendship centre is all about. But I hope that you have taken time to see what kind of services the friendship centres across Manitoba delivered for aboriginal people.

I will give you a quick example of our elders, our elders that have to be removed from northern communities because of lack of personal care homes or lack of medical opportunities. A lot of the elders are removed from the communities and are placed into larger centres like Winnipeg because of medical reasons. You know, I do not have to remind you, that diabetes is very, very high in the aboriginal community. The only treatment that a lot of individuals have, kidney dialysis and stuff, is in the city of Winnipeg or other larger communities.

So when we remove our respected elders out of our communities into urban centres, a lot of time there is the feeling of being lost, of not having the people around, the family around, but also traditional foods, traditional entertainment and stuff like that.

The friendship centre used to provide a very, very valuable service. The friendship centre used to be contacted by personal care homes in the city. They used to go and pick up the elders and bring them out for traditional feasts or bring them out for appropriate traditional activities within the city of Winnipeg. That was so important to our elders because most of the time the elders, when they were taken out for medical purposes and placed in personal care homes, the family never saw the individual again until they were brought back home to be buried in their own community. The families a lot of timescould not afford to come out and visit on a regular basis because of the isolation and the high cost of transportation. So a lot of times the elders were left without family, without supports in the city, within their immediate family.

I know that I have raised it before, and I will continue raising it. It is not like the south, where you can hop in a car and drive 100 miles or 150 miles and visit a loved one. It is not the same when you come from communities, say, Island Lake communities, for example, where there is no personal care home. The only way out after the winter road is closed is to fly in and out. It is very, very costly. When you have 85-90 percent of the people unemployed, the only means of money is through social assistance. When you look at $300-$400 air fares, I do not know how you would ever save up that kind of money.

But those are the kind of things, I hope when you are dealing with your counterparts in Regina, right, where you are going to, that you will raise some of these kinds of issues and say, how can we as provinces that are committed, are willing to deal fairly and to assist our aboriginal elders, our aboriginal peoples, our aboriginal communities, how can we address that? How can we discuss this? How can we get the federal government to, say, cost-share or some kind of an agreement? We used to have northern development agreements all the time, so it is not impossible to do. We used to have northern development agreements that tied federal dollars, provincial dollars, and it was cost-shared.

So say for instance, a personal care home, I think right now for any government, any government of any stripe, there should be a personal care home in the Island Lake area. I was there myself, I met with the chief and council, I saw the elders, I saw the families trying to look after them with the intravenous, and some of them had to change the bags and stuff like that. They were not nurses and it was very, very difficult, but they did it out of love and to keep their elders there.

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All governments have to be sensitive to people's needs, and I really hope that what you say you really mean, and I hope you are really committed, because I have heard for seven years a lot of talk but very little action. I hope it will be reversed with you. I hope you will have lots of action and talk all you want, as long as you act. Those are some of the issues that I wanted to raise with you. I would welcome your views on this and hear some of your responses.

Hon. David Newman (Minister of Northern Affairs): Thank you, honourable member for Point Douglas, as usual a very sincere and thoughtful presentation of your views on the aboriginal people in the city and beyond. I am going to pick up on your last comment about all talk and little action.

I am not going to get into a debate on that. That is not the purpose of this process. But I will single out one thing which I think is a major accomplishment by this government. I am grateful that effort has been put into this for many years before I ever came into the Legislature by our government, and that is the commitment, the persistent and earnest commitment to tackle the issue of treaty land entitlement. That became a major commitment of my department, a major commitment of my predecessors and, through the political leadership and the staff, a major, focused and structured effort was made to fulfil the provincial legal responsibilities to provide lands but also to be the catalyst to bring about the process to permit the federal government to carry out its long, outstanding obligations to the bands in Manitoba who had been party to treaties and had entitlement to more lands under those treaties than had been provided.

That statute, imposing that obligation in Manitoba to provide those lands goes back to 1930. The federal government simply never in any leadership way moved that obligation to the table and into a momentum towards resolution and, of course, that has now happened and with immense good will, co-operation and commitment by the aboriginal representatives at the negotiating table and the representatives from Manitoba and the representatives from the federal government we are on the verge of bringing that to a conclusion.

The magnitude of that in terms of the quantity of the lands which will be transferred and the quantity of money that will be transferred, all in trust for the benefit of the people represented by the aboriginal leaders, will make a difference. It will be a basis for them to become more healthy and successful communities and more healthy and successful individuals in those communities. So that is a huge, I think, accomplishment. The details are not widely known to the general public. They are not even widely known to probably members of the Legislature other than those that have been following closely.

That is going to make a difference, as will the resolution by way of modification of the Northern Flood Agreement which was entered into in 1977. There is now going to be a better relationship because of the agreement which is about to be finalized with respect to two of the remaining seven bands who were party to that agreement. Again, a persistent, focused and structured effort by my predecessors and continuing in my department by staff and all of the, again, parties and the people they represent. So that again means a significant transfer of wealth. That again means an empowerment of the people, an opportunity to develop a more effective social and economic infrastructure for healthy, sustainable communities in the North.

The other thing is that in a whole variety of different ways through departments of Health, Education and Family Services Access programs, there have been incremental accomplishments along the way which surface. For example, I attended a graduation from the Engineering Access program several weeks ago on a Friday night, and four aboriginal engineers, the product of five years of credit courses, came out with a degree in engineering. Sometimes it took more than five years because they took a year off to work.

Thanks to the Access program in recognizing that, for example, one of the students from Peguis did not have what appeared to be some of the characteristics necessary to be successful in the long term in the program. So the decision was made by that individual and the program to go out and get a job for a while and alleviate some of the family obligations as well, also just to get more adjusted to the university situation and the urban situation. That individual did that, and the employer apparently now gives a testimonial saying anytime you have a student like that, we want you to have them work for us, because that is a benefit to us. If it is of benefit to the individual, as it was here, it is a win-win. That individual came back and was one of the graduates.

Another graduate was someone who had been in the mining trade for 17 years of his life before he went into engineering, and he has graduated now as an industrial engineer, a mature individual.

All of these are role models. They were represented by members of their community at the graduation. You could feel the pride, the commitment to their people, their desire to fulfill their careers in service of their people. Again, those kinds of things are a product of seven years, in some cases, of effort. That is how much time, and that is the persistence I am talking about.

Another example goes back to a time when your party was in government, and I have told this story many times about the youth justice committees having their origin on the Roseau River Indian Reserve. That is the first youth justice committee. They still have it there, and it has expanded; it does adult diversion work. So 22 years later that origin has resulted in now there being 74 youth justice committees under the Young Offenders Act in the province of Manitoba. That is incremental, and that is still expanding.

What is happening now is those very bodies are becoming the basis for perhaps what will become extended family conferencing models for doing not just criminal justice but also doing child protection matters, doing holistic, as I say, small "j" justice in the broadest sense for aboriginal people in their communities. There you have elders and you have youth and others work in conjunction often with the local RCMP and other justice workers, probation services. They then do justice within their communities. That is a 22-year program.

It had its origin--and I might say Manitoba is ahead of every other jurisdiction in the country. Now that we have Awasis coming forward and people like Art Schofley, an elder, with their proposals for doing enhancements to these committees to make them more a broader, extended family conferencing model, we have evolutionary improvements that I think will be the foundation of the kinds of changes that I am very optimistic about, changes which require persistent effort over a generation. I speak without hesitation about this kind of a long-term commitment extending parallel to our economic agenda, the economic agenda going to the year 2025 when, if everything goes in accordance with plan and we do not have any disasters, we will have eliminated our accumulated debt.

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I would submit that there is a direct relationship between our paying down our accumulated debt by $75 million and the future of young aboriginals and the future they have because, when those born today are in their early 20s, that debt will be gone and more will be able to be devoted to them and their children. They are going to benefit as much, maybe more than other Manitobans because of that kind of commitment.

I will not go on with all of the other details of the kinds of programs but just to illustrate that all of those things, all of those changes add up. I can talk about changes in the education system, in the health system and in family services, which I would submit are positive developments which ensue out of the strategies you have cited in the past in Aboriginal Justice Inquiry; Hughes; the urban strategy of the late '80s; the northern study. All of these kinds of things I think are reflective of the adopted provisions of those recommendations.

You made reference to training and the importance of training. In the process of doing that, you mentioned somewhat critically, I felt, a reference to just low-income paying jobs, end of quote. I would urge you and urge anyone not to devalue any job. I think that we do a disservice sometimes by thinking that any job for which you receive pay that is legal and moral is somehow lesser or not worthy of respect. I know I personally have as much respect for the most humble person doing the most humble job, and that is measured in different ways.

I find that some people are critical of a job in a fast-food restaurant. Another person is critical of a job in a--well, a lawyer's job. Someone is critical of social workers. Someone is critical--[interjection] And Mr. Ashton speaks out, someone is even critical of MLAs' jobs and say that is not a real job. Some people say that. I do not agree with that either.

As a matter of fact, I am probably as proud of this profession as any other job I have ever held, and I say that without any hesitation at all. I think being an elected parliamentarian is as worthy a profession as any.

But I do not think it does any service to our aboriginal Manitobans, particularly the young ones, to suggest that. Because if you are good at a job, you work at it; and you work at it with intelligence, commitment and heart conscientiously. You gain self-respect. In our jurisdiction minimum wage means--some would say, well, you cannot live on minimum wage. It is certainly a lot better than nothing. Also, every time you work at a job it is a learning experience. It is a character-building experience, and you get paid at the same time.

I know I used to tell my own children that any time that they turned their nose up at a job when they were teenagers, I would suggest to them that if you treat everything you do in life as a learning experience and you are not paying tuition, they are paying you to do it, paying you to get trained, it is all in your attitude. That is what I would urge aboriginal people to do, not turn your nose up at any jobs, prove yourself, prove yourself worthy, earn respect.

Having said that, the responsibility for training--we have talked today in the House about the new agreement just signed between the feds and the province about training. My understanding of that agreement, and I think this is well known, is that the federal responsibility to provide training for aboriginals remains with the federal government. So we will be in common cause with the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) and the aboriginal people in encouraging effective training of aboriginals through the federal responsibility. That is going to be, I agree with you, the basis of effective participation in our social and economic society in Manitoba.

Another thing on training, our Partners for Careers program, in spite of that federal obligation, is an initiative by the province in partnership with the federal government, and I am also very proud to say an initiative of several departments of our government--Education and Training and our department. The Partners for Careers program is geared, focused, on young people who graduate from high school and from community colleges and universities. It is designed to focus on them as the role models, people who because of their effort and their accomplishments should have jobs. The employer community who are partnering with the federal and provincial government in that initiative throughout the province will be giving those opportunities. The aboriginal community agencies involved in the program will be training those people. Mr. Jim Bear who is in charge of that program and the advisory council of three employers and three youth representatives, aboriginal youths, young people, will hopefully contribute in significant ways to accomplishing over the next three years not just some hundreds of jobs but some hundreds of role models who will influence others and show that it is worth sticking to it and staying in school and working your way through the system.

He made a specific comment about government contracts, a suggestion. I just want to give a caution, because I think it is something that we as members of the Legislature have to be sensitive to, and that is there is a very delicate balance that has to be maintained in terms of public goodwill and understanding. In our multicultural society, we have many people, and, interestingly, I spoke to an aboriginal last night who felt very concerned about the division that might occur in the aboriginal community if we now move ahead with programs like Partners for Careers because he never had that opportunity and he was successful.

There is a great sense that we have in our society that everyone wants to be treated equally, and it sometimes requires an effort on our part to communicate the reasons for these things. Sometimes it is the statistics and the historic injustices, and sometimes it is what Section 15 of our Constitution says and what our human rights legislation says about accommodating affirmative action and accommodation programs. I have no hesitation supporting those for the aboriginal people because they are to me, with the understanding I have, real and special needs, and so we have to do special things.

It is going to be of benefit to all Manitobans, not just aboriginals, all Manitobans. We do have to invest in this and make an effort as a Manitoba community to address this special challenge, but we do have to be sensitive. We have to make sure that we do these things with understanding. We do walk in the moccasins of the people who have that historic attitude and have made those sacrifices and made it on their own.

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Having said that, with the hydro power line that was put through Thicket Portage and Pikwitonei, just operational several weeks ago, 90 percent of the workers on that were aboriginal. They put the right-of-way through. The majority of the workers on the hydro northeast-central power line are aboriginal workers. Historically, there has been a real commitment that way, to involve aboriginals in their employ in northern areas, and that commitment is reflected in those examples.

The other thing about hydro, they allow a 10 percent premium on costs in the bidding process with respect to northern areas, so that the aboriginal construction companies can have an affirmative action kind of opportunity. I might say our own Department of Northern Affairs has almost 30 percent aboriginal staff in their Northern Affairs office.

So we are conscious of these. We do not have that arithmetical formula you suggest nor that policy. I appreciate your intent, but that is not a policy, and I do not think it is something that I would be prepared to recommend. It is a little too much of a quota kind of system, but the sentiments I have no hesitation agreeing with.

With respect to the comment about the elders off-reserve, you mentioned diabetes, kidney dialysis. Whether it is age or infirmity or illness that causes someone to have to move out of their communities and come into the city, certainly I am very sensitized to that, very well aware of it and have taken a great interest in it and have a particular involvement and interest, I might say, in the aboriginals and diabetes, the epidemic afflicting the aboriginal people and will be very pleased to contribute to the debate on that in the Legislature, if I have the opportunity this afternoon. The member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) has put forward a resolution in that connection. I think that it is timely and a desirable thing to bring forward and debate in the House, and it is an issue that will receive my attention, effort and support.

But the dislocation situation, I had an opportunity to see what Island Lake support services is trying to do, for example, in providing sort of a comfort, a buddy system, a support system for people who do come into Winnipeg off-reserve, and that is something that is the kind of thing that the aboriginal community in Winnipeg, as I understand it, in a volunteer way, participates in. In fact, I attended a fundraiser by the Island Lake support services where by far the majority of people there were representing the aboriginal community in a fundraising dinner supporting the event, and I give them enormous credit for doing that.

The focus on health and these basic social needs, I believe, is a tremendously important foundation for the kind of training and economic development which will be the product of training that you referred to earlier. If we do not address the problems of addiction, alcoholism, addictions to drugs and gambling, and even some nutrition habits that contribute to diabetes, if we do not address those kinds of issues, if we do not address the problem of consuming alcohol when you are pregnant with the result that we end up with fetal alcohol syndrome and effects in children to be born and then suffering from it the rest of their life, if those kinds of problems are not addressed in that long-term preventive and in a persistent way that is measured, we will not realize the potential of those individuals or those communities. I believe that is foundational. It is the basis for the kinds of accomplishments that are going to be necessary for the incremental achievements necessary to move toward the goals which probably you and I would share for the aboriginal people of Manitoba.

One final point, I just mention the midwifery bill which will be emerging, and it will be, I think, again, something that will contribute to health in the communities in a responsible way.

Mr. Hickes: When I raise these issues, do not take these issues personally, because a lot of this stuff that happened, happened years before you were elected and years before you were appointed Minister of Northern Affairs. When you talked about the treaty land entitlement agreement, we applaud that. I do not know if you are aware, but in 1980 we had an agreement in place. It was the federal Mulroney government that was holding it all back, so that is why it was never signed.

When I raised the issue of low-income jobs, I do not know, I hear what you are saying, but also I hope you hear what I am saying. When I am talking about meaningful employment opportunities, the $5.40-an-hour jobs and the $6-, $7-an-hour jobs are not going to do it when you have a family to feed. When you are a teenager living at home or a single person sharing accommodations, sure, you might be able to do it but try raising a family on that. It is pretty darn hard.

If you look at Winnipeg, the urban area, there are a lot of single mothers there. Some have three, four, five children. Are they going to be able to raise their families on a $5.40-an-hour job? That is why I say when we talk about training and employment, let us talk about training for employment opportunities so an individual can feel comfortable to feed their families and to look after the means of themselves and their families.

That is why, if we train for cashier jobs or McDonald's jobs for $5.40 an hour, I do not think that is the answer. I think we have to go beyond that. I am no different than anyone else. I wish the best for myself and my family, and I am sure every other individual who is out there feels the say way, but I know, I know, I could not feed my family on $5.40 an hour. It is impossible. I would not be able to do it, and that is not what I wish upon other people.

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So when you talk about the importance of holding a job versus not holding a job, I agree with you. It is important to have a job, but it is also important to put food in the mouths of your children. Some families are on social assistance, and the only reason they are on social assistance is because they never had the opportunity to get their education and to get into higher paying jobs, where their rent is paid and they have food and stuff like that, and, now, when they go get a job you want them to go work for $5.40, $6 an hour, but they have lunches, they have transportation expenses, they have babysitting expenses. They are further back, and they just will not be able to make ends meet.

That is why when we talk about training programs and governments talk about training programs for single mothers, you always have to make sure that those obstacles that stop an individual from taking advantage of those training opportunities are in place; for instance, daycare; for instance, transportation.

I will give you a good example of how hard--government guidelines are government guidelines. I had an individual who phoned me, and she was a single-parent mother, and she said I am taking a training program, but part of my training program is I am on a work placement. She said, I have two work placements; I work half a day, but I work one hour here and an hour and a half over there. So she said, I have to take a bus from home to one job and another bus from that job to the other job and then the bus home. Well, she said, I really want to finish my training, George, and you know what, social assistance will not give me adequate bus tickets. I said, well, what do you mean? She said they just give me allowance for half a month bus pass not the whole allowance. I said, did you not explain it to your worker? She said, yes, but she says you are only half time. I said, yes, but you still need a bus pass to go from there to there to there. So, finally, when she explained it, the worker finally gave her the allowance for the bus pass.

But those are the kinds of silly things that we have to try and overcome, to encourage individuals to put proper support in place to make the opportunity for individuals for training and employment very, very meaningful, because most people you talk to do not want to be on social assistance. They do not, but a lot of them, they cannot afford not to be, see, and that is the problem for a lot of individuals.

So when I talk about meaningful employment, I am not making fun of $5.40- or $6-an-hour jobs, because for a lot of people, individuals coming out, that is very important. But when you are single or even if your partner is employed, fine, you might be able to make it with two $6-an-hour jobs, but not if you are a single parent. It would be pretty, pretty darn difficult. That is where I was coming from on that one.

I am really pleased that the government found the money to pay that $75 million to pay down on the debt, but the government has a rainy day fund, and for a lot of individuals it is raining today. I do not starve my family for a week so I can put $100 in the bank. I make sure that my family is looked after first, then if I have $100, I will put that $100 in the bank, but I will not starve my family first.

That is what has been happening for a lot of aboriginal people. I am glad that you are a new minister because you will see where your government has made some changes, and from your sincerity and from what you are saying I hope that you will change some of the actions of your government in the past. You talked about 90 percent of hydro lines going to communities at Thicket Portage and Pukatawagan--was it Pukatawagan?

An Honourable Member: Pikwitonei.

Mr. Hickes: Pikwitonei? Okay, going into those communities, and 90 percent of the brush cutting, I am sure, would be the brush cutting by aboriginal or northern people.

That is a real good commitment, and the other, when they lay the lines in, I hope you are aware of this--well, you must be because you are the Minister of Energy and Mines--that now that Manitoba Hydro has linemen or line people, whatever they call them now, training a lot of aboriginal people as linemen, when they graduate they will be at very good employment levels, and they will be able to feed their families and look after them.

Now, that is a commitment by a Crown corporation. Now you see why we fight so hard to protect Crown corporations, because if that was a private company, do you think that would have happened? When you were speaking earlier, you were saying that it would be hard to implement quotas or percentages for contractors that go into contracts with governments, but you were free to use a Crown corporation as an excellent model of more aboriginal people and more northern individuals being hired.

So when we talk about the possibility of a contractor that contracts with Northern Affairs or contracts with whomever in northern Manitoba, there is already a precedent that has been set by the building of the limestone dam. There was a 25 percent northern preferential hiring clause built into all contracts, and there was no problem. I never heard anything about the government being taken to court over that, and I know, I research back. I was also involved in that whole limestone project, that before limestone came to be and that percentage was in place--and it was pretty well met throughout the period of the whole contract stages--with all the previous dams that were built in northern Manitoba there were anywhere from 3 to 4 percent. The highest that was achieved that was on record was 9 percent.

So that was a tremendous increase and golden opportunities that were achieved for northern aboriginal people. A lot of those aboriginal people who went through the training and got work and got employment and got their certification, a lot of the individuals are now working and employed in their own home communities.

I will give you a good example. We were in St. Theresa Point, and we did a TV show. They shut the local stations off, and you have a local show. We had our little spiels, and then they opened the lines for people to phone in. One individual called in and said are you the same George Hickes that was on the limestone training, and I said yes. He said, well, you wait there, don't leave, I have to see you. So I said okay.

This individual came about 20 minutes later. We were just standing around shooting the breeze waiting for the calls to come in, and this individual came up and shook my hand. Gary Doer, my Leader, was standing right beside me. This individual says, I just wanted to come and thank you in person, because I was almost let go from limestone training, but you looked after it where I was not released, and I continued and finished my levels; now I am a certified journeyman carpenter. He said, you know what I am doing now? I said no. He said, I am the shop teacher for my own school. That person's chest was about here with pride, with a deep amount of pride. Those are examples that we could accomplish and we should be accomplishing. We should be accomplishing those kinds of things in northern Manitoba.

When you talked about, like, your government has done--it is fine; I applaud. Whatever your government does for aboriginal people, I applaud you. I will pat you on the back, whatever you want, but you are new. You are new, and I am glad of that, because I do not think you are aware of what has happened in the past to aboriginal people by your government. That is why we as aboriginal members get skeptical. Sometimes we get a little bitter at times, but we always question the sincerity of what you say now as the minister because of what we have seen and what we have experienced. If you take one step ahead and people applaud that, fine, but do not take three steps back because it will never catch up.

I will give you a few examples, and I do not know if you are aware of these, but since I have been here you talked about Access, the importance of Access, and Access is very, very important for training programs. A lot of your pre-med and pre-engineering programs under Access, some individuals had to go for one year, two years, to get their academic standings up to get into engineering and doctors programs, and that is because of our lack of science labs and stuff in northern Manitoba. So that is understandable. It is not because people are silly or the southern people are brighter than the northern people. That is not the case. It is because a lot of the northern people did not have the opportunity to get into the sciences like southern students do here because of the availability of labs and on and on and on.

The Access program that you were just speaking to--and it is not this minister; it is previous, previous, previous; it is the government--has been cut. In '94, the Access program was cut by $2 million and in '95 by $1.4 million, okay? That is the Access program you were just speaking to. Some students were caught in the middle of different funding--[interjection] Yes, they had to go to court to continue with their funding, and the government even appealed it.

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Also, the seats were reduced by up to--had reduced provincial funding seats by 155 seats, reduced an nonrepayable bursary, eliminated two Access programs, Electrical Technology and Civil Technology, reduced the engineering program and reduced staff for Access. With the engineering program, there is going to be built bridges and dams and whatever have you. We will always need engineers, and I was glad to see that the University of Thunder Bay picked that up. At least our aboriginal people who wish to be engineers will have a place to go.

Did you know that BUNTEP, the northern bachelor of nursing which provides for aboriginal students to become teachers and nurses, was also cut? New Careers, well, it is eliminated now. It was totally cut, and New Careers was a program that took disadvantaged and low income or what have you, aboriginal people, visible minorities and people who were on social assistance. A lot of it was a very high success rate because the training program went in modules. You signed on for two years and you went to class for two weeks, and then you were on the job learning for six weeks and then two weeks in the classroom. The knowledge you were getting in the classroom you were able to implement on the job, so that way you kept growing and growing.

Then the agreement was that if you successfully graduated, the agency or whoever you trained for would hire you. When you look around our jails in Manitoba, you will see a fair number of aboriginal people as correction officers, and most of those individuals went through the New Careers Program to be trained as aboriginal correction officers. Some of those individuals, after about 16 years, are still employed with Corrections, and that is a great accomplishment, a great accomplishment.

Then I am sure you are aware of our 11 Indian and Metis Friendship Centres, 100 percent funding was cut--$1.2 million, just bang one day. In one day the funding was cut. That was for youth counsellors, career counsellors, recreation workers and all the things that we hear coming from Justice. Anytime you speak to any group or organization on justice or youth, that is one of the examples they always give. There is such a high need for recreation programs, and we need a chance for career opportunities.

When you hear those children and families speaking--it is no secret, you know. A lot of the problems we have today are directly related to poverty, because when you have poverty you have hopelessness, and a lot of people give up and they just do not give a damn anymore, so the cycle continues on and on. If you give an individual a career, a meaningful career that they are choosing, and help the families to get out of the life of poverty and give them jobs, that is the secret to a lot of the problems that we have right now, is give people jobs; give them their hopes back. It is no big secret.

Are you aware that MKO was cut $78,500, that their funding was cut? The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, $325,000, their provincial funding was gone, and in June of '94, payments for foster parents was cut from $20 to $10, and in a lot of First Nations and northern communities 80 percent of the aboriginal foster care placements occur within extended families because there is a strong belief that families should try and be kept together, 80 percent. In '93, the province cut funding for the Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance. That was cut, and that is where my colleague from The Pas got into a little bit of a hassle with the Speaker, because he named it something that some people were saying--

An Honourable Member: He is not the only one.

Mr. Hickes: Yes, that is what I mean. A lot of the northern people were saying it was a "blank" policy, directly aimed at aboriginal people because the majority of your fishermen in northern Manitoban are aboriginal, so that is why a lot of people view it for what it is. I will not use the word because I do not want to cause any problems here.

Then the northern hospitals, they have been cut. A funny thing, too, you know, a lot of the communities, the individuals who are sitting at this table work in and have been visiting and know a lot of the people there, and a lot of those communities are very poor communities. When you have individuals who have an accident or have to be flown out, do you know now they have to come up with $50, a $50 user fee, to get an ambulance? So what happens? Sometimes that will stop an individual from coming out. It might be just a pain in the stomach or what have you, but how do you know it is not someone's appendix ready to burst? There are no doctors in those communities. It is just a guessing game, and if they do not have the $50, what do they do? You are penalizing people who have very little means as it is. A lot of them are seasonal employees, and so for part of the year they have very little income.

I do not have to mention, you have heard lots about the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. That pretty well is becoming a doorstop.

You were mentioning earlier about youth justice committees. St. Theresa Point had an excellent program, and the community was very, very proud of that. Do you know what happened to that program? The funding ran out and that was it. They would not renew it, yet there is supposed to be a million dollars set aside to implement AJI every year. St. Theresa Point used to have one of the highest problems with gas sniffing and youth problems, and they used to have a youth justice committee to deal with their problems within their own community, but it was only funded for a year or two, and then the funding was cut off. It was very little funding. It was not that expensive of a program.

The Children's Dental Program, the dialysis unit in The Pas is not operating. People have to drive to Flin Flon. The Flin Flon Crisis Centre, Keewatin Community College has been--no one has to explain to you about conditions of the northern highways. Could you imagine if you had a highway in the condition of driving from Thompson to Leaf Rapids, if the highway, say, from Winkler to Morden was in that kind of condition? What would happen? People would be up in arms, and something would be done. Do you know that is still a gravel road?

An Honourable Member: Is it a road really?

Mr. Hickes: Well, it is a gravel road, and it is so dusty and it is so dangerous that a lot of the individuals--sometimes the police or the ambulance will not even go on that road, will not even travel that highway. My colleague from Thompson and my colleague from Rupertsland were up there this year with the chief and council from Nelson House, hoping to get something done.

So those are the kinds of examples I am drawing to you as a new minister, and I do not know. Would you have let these things happen if you were the minister of the day? From what you are saying and the way you are saying it and the way you are coming across, I would be very surprised. I would be very surprised, because you are coming out being sincere, and you really mean well, and you really want to do the right thing for the aboriginal community. So when you wonder sometimes why we as aboriginal members get skeptical and we ask some questions at times, that is why. I just named you a whole bunch of the cuts that for sure have not benefited aboriginal people. A lot of those cuts that you made as cuts used to be a great benefit to northern and aboriginal people in northern Manitoba and in the city.

That is why aboriginal people always--now you hear we will wait and see. It is because of that. What you are saying that your government has done, that is fine. That is the one step ahead, but what I just told you here, those are the three steps back, and that does not help people. If you would have continued, even little baby steps, forward, not taken the big steps back, I think people would have been a lot better off.

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That is why I had to draw that to your attention, because I do not know if you are aware of what has happened in the past--[interjection]

An Honourable Member: That was before he was elected.

Mr. Hickes: A lot of them happened before you were elected in 1995. A lot of them happened between 1990 and 1995, and I know that we all get elected because we mean well and we want to do the best for our constituents and the best for the people of Manitoba, no matter what colour or creed they come from, but we have to start being sincere and show that we are sincere. I talked about action. We need action, and I hope you are the person who will bring that about because we really, really need it.

You talk to Mary Richard and George Campbell. He is from Norway House. He has worked for years for Indian Affairs. You will not get a person who has more knowledge than he does about northern Manitoba and about the aboriginal people. He will tell you the truth. You sit down with him. He will tell you the truth. His brother Ed has worked for northern manpower for years. They used to go around and work with the people. They have lived the life.

You talked about walking in someone's moccasins. Well, I hope you will encourage him to speak freely and openly with you, and I hope you will listen to your northern staff who see this every day. You have a lot of good people at the table here. I know some of the individuals sitting around this table. I have known them for years and I have seen them in different roles, and the heart is there, the commitment is there, the knowledge is there, and I hope you will accept and use that knowledge to the betterment of northern and aboriginal--when I say aboriginal I am talking about all northerners, all northern and especially aboriginal people who have been hit by a lot of these cuts.

I just wanted to draw that to your attention. I am not trying to put you on the spot or anything. I just want you to be aware of it, because Eric or Oscar or myself, we have raised these kinds of questions, and that is why we sit back sometimes and say I hope this individual is sincere this time, because we have been told lots of times, since I have been here in 1990, yes, this will happen, this will happen, this will happen. Lots of times those things just do not happen, and the government says there is no money.

Well, like I mentioned to you earlier, there is a rainy day fund, and as a small example, in northern and urban centres right now, it is raining out there. I hope the government is not just putting the money aside for an election slush fund because people need the help. I think that is what we are here for. I really believe that. I really believe that we are here to help people. I still believe it. The day I stop believing it, that is the day I will not be here, simple as that.

So I just wanted to share that with you. I did not want to get into an argument or a debate, or you justifying. You can say what you want, but I just wanted to put that on the record. Thank you.

Mr. Newman: Just to respond to a number of the points raised and just a general comment about the history that you have described, and I am not going to get into the history because for as long as there is government at any level, tough decisions have to be made about priorities, and tough decisions have to be made about whether or not a program has sort of run its course and something better should happen.

Some programs are dependent on partnerships, and in many cases with the aboriginal people, it is with the federal government. They have partnerships necessarily, and in many cases the federal government changes a policy, and we have to decide as a government whether we will continue a program with 100 percent responsibility by us or on a reduced basis or whether it should be continued at all. So there are all kinds of reasons which are thoughtfully considered by any government, and then you have to make a decision.

I make no apologies and, in fact, speak with pride--and I have done this before, I think, in discussions with you--of the provincial long-term economic strategy. It is the kind of discipline like one has when they deal with their own personal budgets. You have to have some sort of economic discipline on basics, and then you deal with all the other decisions within that framework.

But in the economic strategy you have a mixed investment portfolio if you have enough resources, and sometimes you invest in the long term. You put aside money for your basic health needs and basic education needs of your children. You invest some sorts of things on a risk basis which may or may not turn out, and with virtually all social investments, the long-term social things, you are never sure, but with the best research you make the best decisions, and you hope that by spending money on a diabetes prevention program, that 20 years down the road you are going to have a reduced incidence of diabetes in a given population. Sometimes you are wrong so you have to make corrections and you change.

So I am not going to go back into the past and analyze each one of the programs, and it would not be productive for this exercise. I will never hesitate to acknowledge that sometimes in hindsight a kind of program that now in the light of today's day you might have said, yeah, maybe we should have kept that one; maybe that one was working.

But funding bodies like MKO and AMC, I, with hindsight, would have no hesitation saying that that was the correct thing to do, and I had to make the decision, do I support the decision not to provide core funding to the MMF, and I take responsibility for that decision. The budget, that aspect, was really in place before I became a minister, but I supported that, and I support it to this day because I think that is best for the Metis people.

I am not a supporter of doing anything which is going to negatively contribute to bodies like MMF taking responsibility for their own communities. I can tell you that I am urging MMF to develop a kind of fee structure. I mean, I would love to see them have memberships based on a contribution, certainly so it does not deter anyone because they cannot afford it, but to start funding their own organization to a certain extent just like our northern communities. I mean, I am moving in a direction where I believe that healthy, sustainable, more self-relying communities will be a product of not just physical effort and commitment but also investment in these communities. Then they have a sense of ownership.

I happen to come from the school of thought also, which I say with some pride, that I think is the basis of a charity like Habitat for Humanity. When there is ownership of something, there is a tendency to take care, and the value we have in our society for private property is represented in that philosophy. So programs that engender more self-responsibility, I think that is a direction that you can expect me to go in, with no surprise.

You mentioned some specific things. That is enough for history. You mentioned some specific things. You commented about the 1980 treaty land entitlement not being signed because of the Mulroney government. I do not know any of that history through your eyes, and I will probably never have the chance to study it, but one of the ways of achieving agreements has to be to have a relationship with another government, so if you could not achieve that with the federal government, that is too bad. But one has to do things to achieve agreement, so if you failed, I do not think that can be attributable just to one party.

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You talked about trying to raise a family on the minimum wage, and you went through some scenarios and said that in some cases that would be a single parent trying to support self and family. That is why we as a government in our ChildrenFirst strategy have a whole host of initiatives that are focused on the issue of adolescent pregnancy. This is an issue between males and females, and one of the programs is educating males about that.

All of these are found in the ChildrenFirst Strategic Plan for Discussion published in March of 1997. It has a whole host of suggested strategies, and I am going to commend you to look at these and give me feedback as to whether or not these are on the right kind of track, whether these might contribute. One is called Preventing Adolescent Pregnancy, a development of a strategy to stop adolescent pregnancy. Another one is called On the Move, an initiative designed to encourage adolescent girls to participate in fun-filled, supportive, low-level team recreation. Another program called Baby Think it Over Project, Identification of Best Practice, is using the parenting simulation experience, a computer programmable doll to delay adolescent pregnancies. In that instance, the dolls would be distributed through the Manitoba Home Economics Teachers' Association, and the Children and Youth Secretariat will analyze the results of the project.

Another proposed project is an Options Counselling Initiative: Mandatory referral to public health within designated geographic region; case management, counselling, monitoring and options will be provided. This is one of the recommendations that came out of the Adolescence and Pregnancy Steering Committee.

All of those documents which were tabled in the House are the kinds of contributions to overcoming the kinds of root causes of impoverishment in certain families, and rather than just suggesting simplistically that the answer is getting someone a high-paying job right off the bat, sometimes there have to be steps in that direction, and down the road, I mean upstream, upstream, we are looking at thinking prevention. We are looking at introducing, we are introducing those kinds of things which hopefully will result in fewer pregnancies by single parents. It is a male and a female responsibility, and the strategies identify that and address that.

There are other foundational things. Why is it that someone who is single desires, in some cases desires to bring a child into the world? Sometimes it is out of loneliness, and sometimes it is because you are unloved. I mean, there are all kinds of complicated things and you know that, but when you think prevention, you think of making those sorts of investments of government time and energy, and you try and get broad community support for it, because the answers are not through civil servants always, sometimes rarely. The answers lie in families; they lie in religious organizations; they involve mentors in volunteer involvements, coaches and sometimes brothers and sisters in the Brothers and Sisters movement, aboriginal elders, all of the influences of a sometimes extended family.

We now recognize this, I think, as a government, so we are doing a lot of things differently, and our Children andYouth Secretariat, through its research and consultations, is recognizing those kinds of things. To the extent they focus on programs through the aboriginal community, we are there and we are supporting those kinds of things, and we are looking for agents in the community, people in the community, to buy into these approaches and support them and work with us.

With respect to removing obstacles to getting and holding jobs other than those sorts of obstacles which are sometimes created by one's own lifestyle choices or products of their environment, there are obstacles that are bureaucratic, obstacles which can be overcome by government or even eliminated because of government getting involved in changing the way they do things. That is why we have the Taking Charge! program, for example, addressing single parents getting into the job market.

I am not sure how familiar you are with that program, but it is no accident that the executive director of that program is an aboriginal, a very successful aboriginal, Rosa Walker, who, interestingly, had training, amongst other jobs, working in the banking industry in human resources. The sort of roles that are being played by that organization is precisely the kind of thing you are talking about, and that is a partnership. That is federal government and provincial government involvement in that program, and that does have child support, daycare support. It has a mentorship kind of thing. It has facilitators who follow up with the employers and is sort of a service to people who are struggling with jobs, someone to talk to if they have a jam, a personal problem.

So that is an initiative, and there is a wonderful initiative, I know, involving the organization that I used to be the president of, the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, and they are providing all kinds of employment opportunities for people on welfare. The program, as I understand it, is working quite well in that same accommodative way.

I support attempts to educate the employer community about the importance of understanding the personal needs of working parents, and it is in their self-interest, I believe, to make adjustments in that respect, even in terms of economic self-interest of the enterprise, and I think they are starting to understand that.

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That is why we, our department, have supported things like the High/Scope Perry Preschool Program research when those people came to Winnipeg. I can say that I had impressed on the business community in some discussions and speeches I had given that they should take on the challenge, just like some of them did with respect to environmental matters, and make it a new moral imperative of corporate social responsibility to address the needs of the yet unborn and the zero to six-year-old age group, because with respect to aboriginal populations, you have pointed out that 25 percent of the population in the city in the year 2016 will be aboriginal workers. So there is a need for the employer community to get ready for that, and they have to start now.

With respect to your point, and I know it was done with a smile on your face, about Manitoba Hydro and its initiatives on behalf of aboriginal people and suggesting that that would not happen with the private sector, I am a proud supporter of both Crown corporations like Manitoba Hydro and also a proud supporter of the private sector enterprises that generate wealth, which pays taxes, and meaningful jobs and a spirit which I think is consistent with the spirit of the North and I would even argue the spirit of the aboriginal people for entrepreneurism.

Some of the best ones, as the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) knows, are from the band that he was once the chief of, and one of the great entrepreneurs in the history of Manitoba is Gordon Lathlin from that very band whose name he mentioned. In my discussions with people from the North and from my readings of the North, there was an economic visionary who really is responsible in large measure, as I understand it, for the blueprint which has resulted in what the Opaskwayak Band has built by way of an economy there. There are some of the best entrepreneurs we have in the province right in that band, and there are many others. I encounter all the time the Jim Bears and many others.

(Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

The private sector is involved more and more in supporting the kinds of initiatives that Manitoba Hydro supports. Whether it is The North West Company or Arctic Co-op or First Nations Beverages or the banks, you look at the corporate sponsors of John Kim Bell's blueprints for careers seminar, the Native Arts Foundation event just held this month in Winnipeg, there is a real interest in supporting aboriginals getting involved in careers in the private sector.

Again, I know that members opposite have attended with me on a number of occasions events sponsored by the Council for Aboriginal Business and other kinds of events. Again, the representation filling banquet rooms in the hotels is tremendously impressive, hundreds of people, 600 to1,000 people at those kinds of events in the city of Winnipeg. I think that is very positive.

So I think it is very important that you as aboriginal leaders in your own right work together with our government and work together with the private sector and the Crown corporations and the communities to help turn the corner and get aboriginals more employment and better employment opportunities.

You have to start somewhere, and if you start at a minimum wage job, and you get some training experience, great. I know that I see the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) wanting to speak, so I am going to allow him to jump into the picture. I just wanted to share your poignant description of the St. Theresa Point certified journeyman carpenter and his gratitude. I share the goals. I share the sentiments. What we might different in from time to time are the methods of getting there, but that is why you are on one side of the House and we are on the other side of the House. I think the people support our approach more than yours, and I am glad that the majority of people in Manitoba, I think, agree with the philosophy which I am espousing here today.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I appreciate much of the discussion here because I think what we need in this Estimates discussion about the Department of Northern and Native Affairs is to get some greater understanding, I believe, from the minister and the government of the reality of northern Manitoba. I appreciate the minister's efforts and I share the sentiment expressed by the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) who was born in northern Manitoba, used to live in northern Manitoba and obviously still speaks for many of our concerns.

I note that we have four representatives, perhaps more broadly there may be five or six if you include some of these with Northern Affairs communities. When there are 57 MLAs, Mr. Chairperson, you have to understand we need every ally we can get. We do not have the numbers of people. We do not have the numbers of MLAs, and we constantly have to fight, lobby, plead, urge, whatever mechanism is available. [interjection] Well, it is not that much of a threat when you are four out of 57, but we try our best.

I do want to say to the minister that I know he would rather have it both ways when it comes to talking about the government's record. I noticed in Question Period today--I think it is unfortunate because I think the minister is already falling into some of the bad habits set by some of the other cabinet ministers. I noticed when we asked a question about the urban aboriginal strategy, and we said, well, this was announced in 1989.

Now, some of us might be excused for being a little bit cynical when this is 1997, and lo and behold, it is being announced again. I think, objectively, most people--well, I think the people who really count in this, urban aboriginal people, would say that nothing much happened out of 1989, so we might be considered to be a little bit cynical, but, you know, we gave the minister the opportunity.

What is interesting is the minister got up and then started talking about the government's record on aboriginal issues and outlined two initiatives. I want to deal with that briefly, but then when we reminded him of about 10 or 20 examples where the government cut back, eliminated programs, made decisions that were clearly not in the best interest of northern and native people, he said, well, we cannot get into history; that is history; we have to look ahead. Well, the unfortunate thing is, Mr. Chairperson, you cannot have it both ways.

By the way, I have a copy of it here, the urban strategy. I do not even know if they have any left on their bookshelves anymore. Ours probably collect less dust than theirs do because we actually go through this, and, I must admit, for eight years we kept waiting. We were hoping that something would happen, that a new minister would come along and somehow all this effort--and I have the copies here, a two-volume document. I would urge the minister to look at it. There is a lot of good information in it. When the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) pointed out the history, for example, of the treaty land entitlement, he said, well, it was not the relationship with the government.

Well, Mr. Chairperson, what happened was you had a tripartite set of negotiations. There was agreement between aboriginal people and the government of the day, the NDP government, and the Mulroney government said no. What they said no to was the Saskatchewan formula; it had already been adopted in 1985--

An Honourable Member: I was the chief.

Mr. Ashton: Indeed, the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) was the chief at the time. I contrast that because I heard members in the House, and I have heard the previous ministers of Northern Affairs sometimes get up and say, well, the NDP did not do anything on treaty land entitlement.

That is not true. The NDP had an agreement with the bands affected. They worked in good faith with the bands. In this case, the Mulroney government--I will not mention which political stripe; well, maybe I will--the Conservative government said no. It was not because we did not have a relationship with the Mulroney government. I do not think it made any difference, quite frankly. The minister may want to reflect on the CF-18 fiasco, where we saw how it did not really matter, that this was a government that was not really that concerned about these sorts of things.

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Anyway, I think that is important to put on the record. I also think, by the way, the minister should be very careful what he says about the Northern Flood Agreement. It affects five bands, and right now sitting in this room we have MLAs representing all five bands. I represent five of those communities myself, and negotiations were ongoing under the Lyon government, under the Pawley government. There were numerous settlements made. In terms of the global settlement, the key stumbling block for many years continued to be the feeling of all five communities that basically there should not be an extinguishment of the Flood Agreement, that it should be recognized as a treaty, and with all due respect, that has not happened.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

If you talk to people in the communities, the deciding factor on signing the agreements has not been because of--and I do not mean to take this away from anybody departmentally, from Hydro or the government or the rest of it. It has not been because of any specific sort of magic wand or anything of that nature. It has been the simple fact that with the passage of time, many people have felt that this was maybe the only solution, the only way to go, not that they agreed with all the provisions, quite the opposite, but there was a concern that many of the elders who suffered the effects of the flooding were now passing away.

I say that because I personally on the record have given credit to the two previous ministers for their role in this and the government and the federal government and Manitoba Hydro and the people in Northern Affairs who played a key role in this. But that is very different, I believe, from somehow saying, well, look what a great job this government has been doing for aboriginal people.

I would say, with respect, travel even to those northern flood communities. In Nelson House, for example, I will tell you what they think of the Conservative government, and I say this not just as a political comment but as a reflection of the bitterness in that community. They actually went as far as to bar the Conservative candidate from visiting the community, the reserve, the Nelson House First Nation, during the election, and this is because, by the way, of comments made by the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

Now, whether you agree with that or not as a way of expressing concern, it is a reality and that is the situation. So I say before you say that, I think it is an accomplishment for the people, everyone who was involved, and I am not taking away from that. I am not going to try and get into an argument to suggest anything other than that. I would have liked to have seen it take place much earlier, but it is not because work was not done at that time either. I give everyone full credit, but signing the Northern Flood Agreement will have a significant impact in those communities, but even in those communities it has not taken away the bitterness towards many of the policies that the government has been implementing. That is five communities. It does not affect the Northern Affairs communities in those communities. It does not affect dozens of other communities, and you can use whatever definition of how many there are.

It is not that I do not want to dwell on the record, but I just want to list very quickly some of the reasons why we are a little bit cynical in northern Manitoba about the Conservatives. Well, actually more than a little bit cynical. I think if you consider the fact that the North has elected NDP MLAs since 1969, with one exception from 1977 to 1981, and someone I beat so I know of what I speak. Iin the last election in Thompson, the Conservative Party received the lowest vote it had received in 25 years, and, by the way, to put it in perspective, the Minister of Northern Affairs for much of that period was the Deputy Premier. Now this may shock some Conservatives, but the NDP candidate in Arthur-Virden got more votes than the Conservative candidate in Thompson did.

Southwest Manitoba--and the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) is here and he says there are not a lot of NDPers around in southwest Manitoba. He said that on the record, I remember one time. He says none but ah, gee there are even some in Turtle Mountain. I know some of them personally. You know, the point of which I am speaking is this government has a problem in northern Manitoba. People do not trust it. They do not support it. I want to read through the list of why. The minister talked about Access programs. You know, this government was so impressed by Access programs they cut them. I mean, yes, the federal government cut funding to Access, but you know what? They cut it more. They eliminated two Access programs and, quite frankly, I appreciate what the minister has said about the impact of the Access programs. I take him very seriously personally when he made that comment about the engineering program. I would suggest though the best tribute to the Access programs would be to reinstate some of the funding.

Limestone Training, they wound that up. You know what they did? They moved the trades programs into KCC. You know what they did a year later? They cut them. Some very innovative things were done under Limestone Training and the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) was very directly involved with that in terms of apprenticeships. That died with Limestone Training. A good way, I believe, of putting in place some of the philosophy the minister was reflecting on.

New Careers, you know, they still have it on the books. They even announced it. The Minister responsible for the Status of Women--I was reading about women and it mentioned New Careers. You know, they are not going to let the title drop, but they have cut and cut and cut New Careers.

The bottom line is they cut the Northern Youth Corps. Now there was a federal funding component of that, I respect it, but no alternative program in place.

Housing has been turned over basically. There is very little social housing in place. I invite the minister personally to come to Thicket Portage and Pikwitonei. I believe he is probably going to be up for the opening of the hydro line, and I will take him personally if he wishes to visit some of the many people in Thicket Portage, Pikwitonei that I have come to know personally, and show him the housing conditions they live in. I do not mean that to blame him. I mean governments of all political stripes have to hear this and at all different levels. You know, significant things were done in housing under the NDP. That was one of our focuses; it has been cut back. It is a major problem.

Oh, I could spend a lot of time on northern highways but this is not the Highways Estimates. I will spend a lot of time in the Highways Estimates on the fact that is it not coincidence that since the Conservatives have been in power the amount they spend on construction in northern Manitoba has ranged from about 5 percent, I mean, they get really happy if it is 10 percent. Under the NDP, it was as high as 23 to 24 percent. I do not know if it just a coincidence of how we vote in northern Manitoba. Who can forget the Minister of Northern Affairs talking a few years ago about how we do not vote the right way?

Friendship centres. The provincial money was cut entirely. I find it interesting because the minister at that time, I heard him say directly to the friendship centres the same thing that the minister currently is suggesting for MMF which is that they should set up membership fees. I can just see it. This may be the solution to the problems the MMF has that the minister is suggesting, you know, the MMF golf, country club and federation. To the minister, I want to take him to visit people, members of the MMF. I can tell you they do not have any money for membership fees. They barely have enough money to live on. Many live in abject poverty. Many are unemployed. To talk about membership fees, I believe, is totally unrealistic and the same way that he talked about investing in communities.

One of the best things that the NDP government did in the 1980s, I believe, in northern Manitoba and across Manitoba generally was the Community Places Program. They built a lot of community facilities. It took people who otherwise would have been unemployed, receiving UI, receiving welfare, and put them towards working for community assets. You know there was one problem. The problem in northern Manitoba was they did not have the matching contribution. They did not have the money to invest in their communities. When you are dealing with communities with 90 percent unemployment, I am sorry, there are not big savings accounts that you can just dip into. You can have all the bake sales you want in the world, and you cannot raise the money to build needed community facilities. So what we did is we said 100 percent funding in remote northern communities, recognizing that there was not a matching contribution.

One of the first things the Conservative government did when they came into office in 1989--I do not blame you for that personally--they cut the Community Places Program, and they eliminated the 100 percent contribution. [interjection] Eliminated. [interjection] Well, I can run through the list--MKO, the cuts that took place, you know, job creation. I am one who believes there is a role for job creation, particularly in remote communities, particularly where, to the minister, you do not have a private sector. Many of the communities I represent have no business sector to rely on. The only store in a lot of communities is a northern store or perhaps a band store in others. You cannot go to the local Chamber of Commerce and talk like you just did. There is no Chamber of Commerce. There is no business community, and a lot of work has to be done and there used to be job creation programs You know what I find amazing is--and, once again, it took people either on UI or on welfare and put them to work improving the community. I can take you into communities right now in northern Manitoba and point to things that were done 15, 20 years because of that kind of approach.

You cut welfare in northern Manitoba. I will tell you, you not only cut it for those under provincial jurisdiction, you cut it for those under federal jurisdiction because the federal Liberals automatically copy it, and that has taken even more money out of the communities. We could get into VLTs. I mean that is a huge drain on northern communities. This is a government that has done nothing on equal hydro rates even though a previous minister committed to that.

You sold off our phone company, and that is the only thing that has really kept us in the forefront in northern Manitoba in getting phone service. We have the best remote phone service in Canada because of the fact we had a publicly owned phone company. Parks--you announced several new parks in northern Manitoba. You forgot one thing. You did not consult with aboriginal people in the area. Speaking of existing parks, you increased our fees 90 percent for seasonal campers in Thompson. Now is it not just a coincidence the North got hit the hardest again, 90 percent in one year? That was very popular, I might add. By the way, if that could be recorded in Hansard with a slight emphasis on it because, believe you me, there were a lot of angry people on that.

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Hospitals. I mean the hardest hit by cuts in the province were Thompson, The Pas and Flin Flon. Where are they all located?--northern Manitoba. What was the hardest hit school district in terms of education funding cuts?--the School District of Mystery Lake. Guess where that is located?--in northern Manitoba. Oh, you came up with that $50 user fee for Northern Patient Transportation. I remember--and I know the former Chair who stepped down now, the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer)--I remember when the Premier (Mr. Filmon) got up and said, well, the people in Gimli faced the same problem. Yes, Gimli is what?--a one-hour drive to Winnipeg. From my community that I live in it is eight hours. You have people who have to pay this fee where there is no road.

Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): They have no idea.

Mr. Ashton: Believe you me, as the member for The Pas says, you have no idea.

In terms of medical care, many communities have no doctor, period; no access, and they still have to pay this fee. Many of the Northern Affairs communities, even the larger communities like Wabowden have no medical visits, no doctor visits. I have been suggesting--and I will throw this out to the minister again, that this is something that can and should be done. In remote communities, in terms of reserves, Medical Services now with a transfer to aboriginal self-government are providing those doctors' visits. I believe this is something that needs to be done because there are people who are suffering as a result.

Even in the Department of Northern Affairs, we have had an 18 percent cut in staff since 1993-94. I know some of those people personally, by the way. It is interesting the minister talked about aboriginal staff because it has been aboriginal staff that have been cut as well. It does not make any difference in the end, those that were cut. I know it was tough on staff in that building and tough on the people who had to make those decisions, and, by the way, it is not because of any devolution. We can get into the discussion about The Pas. I am talking about people in providing line service; people in very difficult circumstances; one person I know who faces some real challenges personally who was cut.

So the Northern Affairs has been cut. We could get into AJI; we could get into the royal commission, the Northern Manitoba Economic Development Commission. They spend $1 million--this was a big announcement in 1990. Now I would suggest that anybody who doubts whether anything has been done with this, talk to the people who did the studies and that were part of the Northern Manitoba Economic Development Commission. They are very disappointed in the fact that virtually nothing has been done with it.

Oh, I heard the former minister today, well we have acted on TLE. Read the document; read the action plan. We get criticized sometimes in opposition, and we get criticized in the North for complaining. I know that we do not have a lot to complain about, but this is one time where we all worked together. I was at every meeting that was held in Thompson. I participated in the workshops; I gave a detailed presentation. We all did. We believed that this was a prospect for doing it. I believe it is a blueprint for northern Manitoba. I believe it could have been used to do a lot of things. I think it still is relevant, and I am willing to work with the minister anytime and anybody in the department.

What you need is a commitment from the government to act on it. What I would suggest to the minister should be done with things like that is send it to every department and say, within six months we want a response from every department of government on how they are going to respond to the recommendations of the Northern Manitoba Economic Development Commission. That is how you get action. You do not take the study and put it on the bookshelves. You say to departments, this is real. We spent a million dollars on it; we want action.

I could go on at quite some length, but I want to stop at that point. I can list further things why we are frustrated in northern Manitoba, but I want to go one step further. I want to kind of reverse it a bit here and get focused in on some of the needs in northern Manitoba. I will give the minister credit for one thing. From the comments I have heard thus far, I do not think he necessarily fully understands the situation. I do not mean that as a shot. I just mean that I do not think he has had the exposure to that yet, but I think he has some sense of what is happening in northern Manitoba.

He has made some effort to travel thus far. That is appreciated. I know it is difficult being from another part of the province to put yourself in those shoes, but I want to suggest to the minister what he has to start with is understand this is not the city of Winnipeg we are talking about. There is no business community; there is nothing to invest; people do not have money for membership fees. In many cases you are dealing with major poverty. And do not underestimate the strength of those communities. I believe there is a lot of inner strength in those communities, and there is a lot of reawakening that is happening in many northern communities.

You know, I believe you have to give people the tools to do the job. Education and training, absolutely. You have got to make that available. That is the key to the future, job creation. I can take you to Thicket Portage and Pikwitonei right now. The grandparents worked on the rail line for 30 years; the parents worked for 15 years and were laid off; the kids are unemployed. I said kids, adults now.

It is important in those communities to give them access to jobs, any exposure to the workplace. I agree with you, I say this through you, Mr. Chairperson, to the minister, on one thing. By the way, when we criticize minimum-wage jobs, we are criticizing the wage, not the job. We are definitely not criticizing the person that is in there, although I say to the minister most people in minimum-wage jobs often criticize the wage too. You know many people do not even have access to that.

I think young people need work experience. I want to suggest we revive the Northern Youth Corps. It was not expensive, and I think that is important. To the minister, what we need to do is invest at this point in time. You mentioned about the deficit. I can say this right now, and I will say it on the record, and I will say it directly to the minister, my constituents, especially the constituents who live in remote communities, could not care less about your deficit because on a daily basis they face their own deficit. They do not have enough. They do not have work. They do not have enough financial resources. In many cases they do not have enough to eat properly. That is a deficit that is far more real for them than the provincial deficit is. I am not trying to underplay the financial situation that any government is faced with. I am just saying that is the reality.

I will tell you, you can throw all the money you want into the provincial deficit and talk about--I believed you talked about a long-term economic strategy. Until you treat the root causes of what is happening in northern Manitoba through education and training, through business development, through job creation in those communities, balancing your books is not going to balance the books of people in northern Manitoba. Unfortunately, this seems to be a direct relation, and every time government says tough decisions have to be made, you know where those decisions are made, whose expense they are made from, the ones who are having the difficulty balancing their own books.

I say it is time to invest in northern Manitoba. By the way, I know people who will say, oh, that is being a spendthrift. I have a suggestion on where we get that money from, from some of the resources that come from northern Manitoba. You are the Minister responsible for Hydro, through you, Mr. Chairperson. The minister is responsible for Hydro. You know how much money Manitoba Hydro makes from northern Manitoba. You also know how much money northern Manitoba contributes through the low hydro rates that we all benefit from as Manitobans.

I can take you to forestry and mining. It is interesting because every time there is a boom in the mining industry, outside of the companies and to some extent the employees, the biggest beneficiary is government. We had this big debate over the books in 1989. The books would have been balanced if the NDP government had not been defeated and would have been balanced in 1989 if the government had not transferred it to the rainy day fund.

You know why that happened--[interjection] Well, it is true. You are saying the Auditor is wrong?

An Honourable Member: I am saying the budget that was defeated was not a balanced budget.

Mr. Ashton: This is the game the minister plays, because you do two things when you sit down as a government. One is you come up with a budget. That is how much you think you are going to spend. The actual amount of money that is spent--

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would like any members of this committee who have the floor to put their comments through the Chair. I would also ask all members, while other members have the floor, to try to refrain from talking to them.

Mr. Ashton: Through you, Mr. Chairperson, I just want to let the--and this is why Conservatives are good at coming up with budgets that mean nothing. Most of their budgets, probably to the last year or two, have been way, way off in terms of the end result, in terms of the deficit. What the minister plays the game with is, and what he does not listen to, and I wish he would show the integrity to listen because what would have happened, the actual expenditures in 1988-89, whether the NDP remained in government or under the Conservatives, if it had not been for the transfer to the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, would have been a surplus. My point was, do you know why?

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We fight over which party deserves credit for it. I will tell. You know who really deserves credit for it?--the mining industry. The mining industry, because in that year alone I believe mining revenues were $130 million. So what happened with that $130 million? It went into the actual books of the government. It got netted out in the Fiscal Stabilization Fund and then just conveniently, when the government wants to put it back in, it puts it back in. Not into services in northern Manitoba, but where does it put the funding back in, right into general revenues and just sort of coincidently at times when the government wants to make the books look like they are balanced, whether they are or not.

Money comes out of northern Manitoba on a daily basis to that. I will not get into the amount of taxes that people pay in northern Manitoba. If you work in the mining industry you are paid a wage that is somewhat higher than average, certainly. The last job I had before I was elected as an MLA was working underground. If anybody thinks that getting an MLA's salary is some big increase, I remember I looked at my first pay cheque after I got elected and of course you do not get a bonus if you work as an MLA--too bad, after the six-hour speech I gave in the last session, I probably would have benefitted from that--but you do not get paid bonus and your basic rate is not any higher. So I know that. I say that in respect, because I think miners deserve that, I believe people in my community who risk their lives in many ways--and I only worked briefly underground. I am not trying to say I was a career miner and that was the amazing part. As a relatively new employee underground, I was making more than I did as an MLA, but we pay a lot of taxes, too. You know what people want?

Mr. Newman: How many days?

Mr. Ashton: Well, to the minister, how many days. He and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) seem to have this idea about who has worked at real jobs and who has not. I can tell you, I do not know how long he has worked underground, but I worked significantly longer underground and at Inco in the plant than that minister ever did, Mr. Chairperson. I, by the way, think that he probably worked at a real job before in his previous job as a school principal, and I find the lack of respect shown by members for something of that nature is absolutely absurd.

My point is that northern Manitoba is an asset to this province, and it is time that money was reinvested. In that spirit, I want to ask the minister some questions. I want to focus on the Northern Affairs communities for a moment, because that is the direct jurisdiction of the Department of Northern Affairs. There are communities--and I am pleased to see some are receiving sewer and water in the last few years.

I want to ask the minister: How many Northern Affairs communities have either only partial or no sewer and water? By the way, I will list these questions so if there is a detailed response, I am quite willing to take them back in writing. I would appreciate this. What the current approved capital schedule is for those communities in terms of sewer and water. If the minister could indicate any of the capital schedule for other capital items in Northern Affairs communities and if there is any long-term target in terms of providing sewer and water for the Northern Affairs communities over a period of time.

I also want to deal in terms of--and this is by way of notice more because I recognize again that they are fairly detailed questions. I wonder if we could get an update in terms of the status of Northern Affairs communities in terms of degree of autonomy, any changes that have taken place, any changes that are contemplated. Another question I would like to put on the record, too, is many concerns have been expressed by employees of Northern Affairs communities about the northern tax allowance which civil servants receive, if there has been any consideration to adjusting that, if there has been any review of some of the per diems that are paid by Northern Affairs, whether that has been upgraded according to civil servant standards because I know that is a concern as well.

I want to ask the minister--and I appreciate, by the way, that I made a lot of comments he may wish to respond to of a more political nature--but if the minister could give us some sense of where he as a minister would like to see us go over the next several years. I know, for example, we have the infrastructure program that we have sort of renounced again. I have always thought that was a great opportunity for us in northern Manitoba with a lot of needs, but are there areas which he is specifically targeting whether it be sewer and water, other community infrastructure needs. He has mentioned community autonomy a number of times. I assume he is talking about greater autonomy of communities, but I also want--to be fair to the minister after he has responded to some of the more political comments--wonder if he could give us some sense of where he sees this department going and I recognize--but just to finish my comments--that the minister is new. To be fair to the minister, I do not expect a detailed answer.

I just want to finish on one note and that is, that I am really serious about inviting the minister to the communities. I do not mean just in a formal way. I can take him, and I think any member from the North can take him into communities that will really open his eyes. I do not mean that as a shot; I just mean to circumstances that people have to face on a daily basis. That is an open invitation, and I hope the minister will be able to take me up on it.

Mr. Newman: Thanks very much for the invitation. I intend to spend as much time as possible in the North when I am able to get away from the Legislature from time to time. I want to do more than just play a ceremonial role, so any opportunity to get to know situations which you hold out as examples of greatest need will be welcomed.

Generally, with respect to the political statements and the second listing today of the kinds of issues which your party and you, as northern representatives, believe have been negatively affected in the North, so much of what you say reflects what has become obvious to me are different philosophies.

When I came into the Legislature, I was very conscious of the damage to what I called in the nonpolitical world the ecosystem of employment, and I have referred to that a number of times in my speeches in the Legislature. I chose the word very carefully when I used it many years ago because the effective working of a qualified marketplace, like we have in Manitoba and is now respected around the world, is dependent on a very intelligent and sensitive understanding by governments of what makes that system function, and with the best of intentions sometimes you can, in well-meaning ways, get involved with programs and get involved with interfering with the workings of that system and find out down the road that you have done far more harm than good.

Unfortunately, taking nothing away from the good intentions of the NDP government of the past, my conclusion was, and the reason why I am in this party and not in any other party is that you were going about it the wrong way, and you, with the best of intentions, in trying to support mining did such serious damage to, I would submit, mining in the province of Manitoba that we are spending energies to try and reinvolve companies that had bad experiences in this province under the NDP government or bad experiences in Saskatchewan under an NDP government, just a lack of appreciation for the way business functions on a world scale in a competitive marketplace.

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The approach that we take to the mining industry and the approach we take to aboriginal people, when we talk partnership, we mean that in terms of a trusting kind of relationship moving towards certain shared goals. We monitor very closely, for example, when we provide an incentive to a mining company to do business in the province, do exploration and hopefully find a mine.

We look at what they contribute to the economy of the province and also look at what they contribute to the environment of the province. We expect sustainable development approaches to the environment. We expect taxes to be paid for the benefit of Manitobans, and we see to what extent they do make that kind of contribution. As a result, we know the tremendous importance of Inco and Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting as major players in relation to Flin Flon and Thompson and all of the people that are employed by them, all the people that supply huge construction projects, that they are for the benefit of Manitobans, underground construction projects in magnificent ways, really, and all of the smaller exploration companies that take risks and come here, and the big ones that take risks and invest. They are doing it because they feel safe. They feel that we have a stable government that understands how they function. We understand the constraints that they are under, and we understand their needs and their aspirations. We also understand them well enough that, hopefully, we never get fooled by them because they are smart people, and they are accountable to shareholders and creditors and sometimes bosses in other countries in the world. But we hope that we understand them well enough that we know when their interests are different from the people of Manitoba, and we protect the interests of the people in Manitoba. But those kinds of relationships are very important and we work at them.

In terms of the forestry industry, the same kind of thing, the fishing industry, trapping. I mean all of those things are part of the ecosystem of employment, and we believe that our appreciation for basic entrepreneurism will enhance the development of those resource-based industries in the North. In the same way, our partnership with the aboriginal people, we are really struggling as a government with our Native Affairs Secretariat and people throughout government and through our civil servant staff and our Northern Affairs department through our leaders, Oliver and Harvey, and many others who have an appreciation, as you pointed out, for the life in the North, the cultures, the aboriginal people in the North.

We are very, very sensitive to the special characteristics of living in the northern communities. In our partnership we want to have the same level of knowledge and sensitivity that we do when dealing with other peoples and organizations. So this understanding of the way nongovernmental groups function will contribute to our effective policymaking and programs. I happen to think that what the NDP tried to do in the past, as I say with the best of intentions, is not even consistent with what I believe is the essence of the northern value systems, where they above more than anywhere else in the province, I believe, pride themselves in self-reliance and they look for holistic solutions and they do not want handouts. They want to fulfill their own visions. They want empowerment as individuals and communities.

I believe that is consistent with the values of the party I am part of and, I believe, our policies. Sometimes as challenging as they appear to be to individuals and communities are the ones that are going to be of lasting benefit and are going to be respected greatly over time. We are challenging people and we are going to work with them in partnership ways to help them fulfill themselves in their own life plans and in their community plans, but we have to resist the temptation to in effect control the process, to think that we have the answers, we have the solutions for them. They have to, with our help, determine them for themselves.

Then we have to resist the temptation to interfere too much because things are not moving fast enough. We are there to nurture and support, not to control, even though we all have that temptation to jump right in there and we have the answers. I emphasize we have to be very patient, but we have to be persistent.

Someone, I think it was the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) who said the other day, they are going to make mistakes in the process. No question about that. It was very interesting, one of the questions asked was about South Indian Lake, and that was when they had the water line problem. One thing that I did not find out until after I had answered the question, and some time had gone by and it came to me from the community, was that one of the causes of the problem with the water system had nothing to do with the physical plant, but it had everything to do with maybe the training, the checklist, the experience, the diligence of the people in the community who were responsible for maintenance. The filter, as I understood it, had become plugged and that was a contributing factor.

So those things will happen, but in the learning process hopefully they happen once and not again. That is how that could be a justification for, well, why do we hand these things off to people in the community. That is because we think that is the answer and we believe the communities think that is the answer.

I know we are running out of time so I am just going to hit a few highlights. First of all, I undertake to provide specific answers and take as notice the information requested by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). I will get you in written form the information requested.

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I wanted to say to the honourable member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) that pursuant to our discussion yesterday I have done a letter. The information is about the Shamattawa hydro poles. My understanding was that the honourable member for Rupertsland has decided to write to the associate regional director, General Lorne Cochrane on the issue and not to the M.P. for the area, and accordingly, since he has done that letter on his own, what I did was write a letter to the Honourable Ron Irwin requesting special consideration for that community as we had discussed. So you should have a copy. I will give you a copy of this letter for your records.

As indicated yesterday, and I indicate to the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) that I see my role certainly to offer co-ordination, collaboration on aboriginal issues. I see you elected representatives in the North as being service providers to communities. They have an enormous geographical area to represent collectively. I will work collaboratively with you, and no matter what you say and no matter what criticism you give, I know you are just doing your job. I intend to treat it that way. But to the extent that we cannot constructively for the benefit of individuals or the northern community on specific issues--you will always have my co-operation and the co-operation of my staff. I think you already know that, because you have an ongoing and good relationship with the long-time members of my department, and that will continue under my ministry.

I will table that letter, if I may, for the record that I passed on concerning Shamattawa.

Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I believe that we can complete this department in the next few minutes since I understand that the minister is going to be travelling out of province this evening.

I do believe we left off yesterday on a matter concerning Jackhead, and I understand that the letter has been done and there is one forthcoming. I do not have that letter yet. There is one quick question I would like to ask the minister, Mr. Chairperson, through you, and that is The Manitoba provincial-municipal tax cost sharing act which comes from Finance ultimately to the Department of Rural Development and then to Northern Affairs, and that is of course divided up to First Nations communities and other native communities in Manitoba. I did write a letter with respect to that very recently, and perhaps the minister is unable to answer my question at this point in time, but certainly I look forward to a response either by letter or other way of communication in the next little while.

Mr. Newman: Yes, I will commit to that. We will get you that answer.

Mr. Robinson: I do believe that my colleague, the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), does have some concluding remarks, but before he does that, I just wanted to say that this morning the member for The Pas and I were in Thompson and joined a hundred other aboriginal people from different northern communities including Nelson House, Split Lake, York Landing, and God's River in a day of protest that is occurring across this country. Now this day of protest, of course, or day of action is not to create violence or not to try and cause any disruption to other people that share this land with the First Nations now, but simply to bring to the attention of this country and Manitobans generally the inequities that do exist in our society. Yes, I am grateful for the minister for naming off role models, John Kim Bell and others. We are familiar with these people. On the other hand, we realize that there is human suffering occurring in our own backyards. I do not think we ought to look too far.

I do look forward to a working relationship with the minister and his staff and his deputy minister. I know a couple of them certainly come from a similar environment that the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and I do, and perhaps at a given point they will gain a better understanding about the realities of aboriginal people and the realities that they are faced with each and every day. We have said it over and over again--alcoholism abuse, drugs, solvent abuse, all these negative things that are occurring. In the meantime, yes, there are good things; on the other hand, the majority of our people are still suffering, and it is tough to say that our people are living in third world countries. In the meantime, many of the resources are being extracted from northern communities at the expense of our people and at the expense, I might add, that comes in the way of higher hydro rates than the rest of Manitoba. There are arguments to that in the meantime, but how do you justify and how do you explain that to an 80-year-old person that has a $400 hydro bill for one month. So it is very hard.

At the same time, we have 10 people in the community of Garden Hill who are suffering from diabetes, that have been relocated to the city of Winnipeg and away from their families, away from their grandchildren, and we believe that it makes all the sense in the world that we have a dialysis machine located in that community, which has a catchment area of roughly 7,000 people.

The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples calls on our provincial governments to work with our First Nations leadership, the federal government, much as the AJI does, and we will again, through persistence, as we are known for as aboriginal people particularly, continue to knock on the minister's door. At a given point, I am quite hopeful that the minister, in time, will see things our way, because he may differ with us on a few minor matters, but on the other hand, I think that he is a reasonable person and many times I think he is sitting on the wrong side of the House.

An Honourable Member: I would not go that far.

Mr. Robinson: Well, that is my feeling, in spite of what the feelings may be in different parts of this room.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairperson, we are prepared to complete this department at this time, unless my colleague the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) does have an opportunity to put a few words on record as well. There are many outstanding issues I will be pursuing with the minister, and hopefully his deputy minister can undergo this education process with us on aboriginal issues, including other members of his staff as well.

Mr. Lathlin: Very quickly, Mr. Chairperson, I just want to make sure that nobody in this room leaves today thinking that all is well in the aboriginal community. I know that the minister, much like the previous minister, sits there and he lists all of these accomplishments, you know, that he sees, and I agree with him there are accomplishments there. I do not have any problem with that, but at the same time, like my colleague for Rupertsland says there is a lot work to be done yet. So I am sorry if I am not as enthusiastic and jumping up and down as the minister is, because I know the reality that exists out there in the aboriginal community.

Also, when he talks about the communities, social services rate cuts, for example, okay, one of the policies says, I think, that they ought to visit 10 employers. Well, if you go to a place like Moose Lake, you know you are lucky if you find three employers. You know, to me, that shows how much people understand. I do not mean to be negative, but sometimes I feel people are condescending when we are speaking here. Yet I know that they do not understand at all.

The minister says we do not want to tell you guys what to do, you know, so, therefore, we need to work in partnership. Well, I recall a meeting in Thompson that was held, hosted by the City of Thompson, I think, and MKO, where the previous Minister of Northern Affairs was, and I was listening to him on radio driving in on a Sunday evening, where he said, you know, you guys make up your minds what you want to do. After the meeting everybody made up their minds what they were going to do, but nothing happened.

The Northern Economic Development Commission--even before, when I was still chief when I used to first hear about it. Then I got elected in 1990. We went through another election, and I heard about it and nothing happened.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The time being five o'clock, committee rise.