ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Personal Care Homes
Safety Standards
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).
In the 1990 Speech from the Throne, the government promised in dealing with personal care homes that they would strengthen the enforcement of personal care homes and strengthen the safety standards in personal care homes in the province of Manitoba. In spite of questions, inquiries, reports and other matters that have been brought to the Premier's attention through three different ministers of Health, we see nothing in the Speech from the Throne yesterday and no action taken on the various reports and recommendations and their own words in the Speech from the Throne. Three deaths, unfortunate deaths, have been reported at the Holiday Haven Nursing Home, a matter that was raised in this Chamber last year.
I would like to ask the Premier, why was he silent on the tragedies in our personal care homes, and why was there not any action taken or initiated in the Speech from the Throne yesterday?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, I think whenever we are dealing with very serious matters such as this, it is important we be accurate. The member for Concordia has repeated a number of allegations about three deaths. The number which he refers to has not proven to have been the case, so I do not want it to go on the record of the House that by his saying in this Chamber today that there have been three deaths at the Holiday Haven Home as a result of inadequate care is in fact a fact. Saying it in this Assembly does not make it a fact, and from the information that has been provided to me by those who investigate this, including the coroner--the member may be aware that all deaths in personal care homes are automatically reported to the coroner--that information at this point in time does not prove to be correct, so I think that must be corrected.
Secondly, Madam Speaker, the Department of Health has worked over a number of years to improve standards and to develop a consistency in standards. A great deal of effort has taken place. There is still some work that is ongoing, and I think the member may agree that the number of complaints we all get about personal care homes and the service--and one should remember that residents of those facilities are regularly visited by the relatives--is very minimal. The one that stands out, of course, was Holiday Haven, as the member for Kildonan knows, and he and I have discussed.
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Holiday Haven Nursing Home
Public Inquiry
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, we have had inquests prior to the unfortunate reports at the Holiday Haven Nursing Home. We have had reports; we have had all kinds of questions in this Chamber. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), in the interest of the public and considering the concerns that have been articulated by members of the public, including the Manitoba seniors organization just recently to the Minister of Health, would the Premier allow for a public inquiry and order a public inquiry here in the province of Manitoba? Surely the protection and safety of our elderly and vulnerable citizens in our personal care homes should be of the utmost priority to this provincial government. The Premier has had questions raised in this House last year. He chose to do nothing.
Will he order a public inquiry, on behalf of all Manitobans, into these tragedies?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I do not think there is a member of this Assembly who would disagree with the Leader of the Opposition in that the safety and level of care of any residents of personal care homes in Manitoba is not of great importance.
Madam Speaker, there is no doubt, when this particular incident at Holiday Haven, given the history of complaint--and a great deal of effort, I would add, on the part of the department to work at improvements--the member for Kildonan, I know, had provided information to the former Minister of Health. We have spoken about that; it is a concern we have all shared.
When this latest incident which was a very serious one happened, we took very immediate action to have the management of that facility voluntarily give up management. We have negotiated a contract with Extendicare to ensure that the 150 or so residents there do have proper care, but I am sure the member for Concordia would agree, just from the level of complaints that come from personal care homes across the province, that there is not another facility that I am aware of, or I believe his critic would be aware of--or if there is they have not shared them with me--that has resulted in the same level of concern and complaint. There are complaints from time to time but nowhere near this level, and members should always be cognizant of the fact that people in those facilities are visited by their relatives. That is why we had complaints about Holiday Haven.
Safety Standards
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Yes, Madam Speaker, unfortunately the complaints that we raised about the Holiday Haven Nursing Home were met by deaf ears by members opposite last year in the session. In fact, the Premier, I believe, and I heard him say on the radio the NDP and the member for Kildonan were fearmongering.
I would like to ask the Premier, did his former Minister of Health mislead him on the nature and safety concerns at the Holiday Haven Nursing Home? Did he investigate those concerns? Did he have any heart at all to look into the issues of the elderly patients and vulnerable patients of that home, or did he just go on with his political rhetoric on the radio and not care at all about those patients when we raised that in the Chamber last year?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): First of all, let us remember that every time we put inaccuracies on the record, as the member did with respect to three deaths, we raise in the public's mind a level of concern that may not be warranted. We put fear into people that is not warranted nor should be there. So I must caution the member for Concordia to be a little bit careful in what he says.
Yes, there has been an ongoing history of difficulties in that particular facility. I am advised, and I have no reason to doubt it, that every complaint that was brought to the attention of the ministry from the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak)--and I know he did that on a number of occasions that have come to members of this caucus or to the minister directly--has been investigated. The result was last fall that the department asked the care home to initiate an independent review of their operation which was done by I believe the Manitoba nursing home association. That was completed. The department was in the middle of working on a plan with that facility when the latest incident occurred, and it was the advice I received and my decision that the time had come to put in a new management team which I believe was part of that recommendation.
So let it not be said that action has not been taken. It has been taken I think in a reasonable manner.
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Holiday Haven Nursing Home
Public Inquiry
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): What the Minister of Health fails to recognize is the Ministry of Health and this government failed the citizens and people of Holiday Haven and failed Manitobans with respect to personal care homes by not adequately enforcing their own regulations and their own standards and by not following up.
I will table a letter from 1994 from the Department of Health to a family whose mother had unexplained injuries at Holiday Haven in which the ministry said that a number of actions would take place. In fact, these actions did not take place. In fact, the ministry promised a social worker would be hired who was subsequently let go by that nursing home, and we had more difficulty.
Will the minister not admit that it is a failure of the Department of Health and that we need a public inquiry into the Department of Health, as well as the actions at Holiday Haven, to get to the bottom of this mess?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I think it is important to note from the questions of both the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and from the member for Kildonan that the concerns around personal care homes are limited to one. We have not had, to my knowledge at least, another care home that has warranted such interest or inquiry. So, first of all, let us appreciate we are dealing with one particular facility of which we are aware today. I have no reason to believe that there are others.
Secondly, let us appreciate as well that the department on a regular basis does receive from time to time complaints from people who have family in a variety of homes. They are investigated; they are checked out. From time to time there are problems with management in a variety of facilities.
We try to work, the ministry tries to work with improving those situations. Holiday Haven was the exception in that it was regular and continual, and the result I understand of the report that was done by the independent assessment by the Nursing Home Association of Manitoba, I believe, recommended a change of management in that facility. Whether you argue that should have happened last October or it should have happened in January is a debatable point, I imagine, but it has happened, and we have taken the steps to protect residents in that facility.
Mr. Chomiak: A supplementary, Madam Speaker. Will the minister not understand and will he not give assurances to Manitobans that an incident of this kind will never be allowed to happen again in Manitoba and can that not only be solved through the structuring of a public inquiry into what happened at Holiday Haven between the department and Holiday Haven and between inaction by this government and Holiday Haven?
Mr. Praznik: Repeating something not true does not make it true. There was a great deal of work put in on behalf of the ministry, including requesting an independent review of the management of that facility by the Nursing Home Association of Manitoba, which was done. The type of work that is done by the department from time to time in other personal care homes is important for maintaining as high a standard as we can.
Can any minister of the Crown guarantee that a particular incident or event will never happen again in Manitoba? There are things that happen in personal care homes from time to time, I do not think on a large basis, but they will because it is a human system with people working in it. I think what we and Manitobans expect that we are able to do is ensure that it is absolutely minimal, and if there is a problem with management or any other matter, that we work to try to correct it and take appropriate measures to do so. That is what we have done in the case of Holiday Haven.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain how the government failed to follow up on their own recommendations of their own task force that studied nursing homes that was established three years ago and reported two years ago; how they failed to report back by November regarding Holiday Haven that the minister promised in this House regarding management changes; how they failed to acknowledge three letters from members on this side of this House saying change management at Holiday Haven prior to the death occurring; and how they failed now their duty to Manitobans to ensure that this issue of Holiday Haven and the department's interaction is investigated to ensure that it never happens again in the province of Manitoba?
How does the minister explain that, Madam Speaker?
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Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, as I have been advised by those who have been working on this particular issue, departmental staff did raise these issues with the management of Holiday Haven. It was agreed, at our suggestion, that they have an independent review done, which was done by the Nursing Home Association of Manitoba. That report was provided to the management of Holiday Haven who prepared a plan with which to make their changes. The department was in the process of reviewing that plan and wanting to see the independent report. There was a fair bit of back and forth and discussion going on when I arrived in this ministry, and given the events that took place, I felt that it was time to move in and replace the management, and that was done.
But surely to goodness the member for Kildonan is not suggesting that every time there is a particular complaint in a facility of Manitoba we move in and remove the management. There has to be some attempt to make things work right, and if a management cannot do that, we have the power to revoke the licence or to use that threat to replace management, and that is what we have done, Madam Speaker.
Health Care System
Privatization
Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): One of the biggest problems this government has is it does not realize the consequences of its fascination with the ideology of privatization. If there is one concern Manitobans are increasingly having, whether they look at Holiday Haven, what was happening to our personal care system and other aspects of the health care system, it is a fact that this government is continuing to push ahead to a system that is based on profit rather than needs of Manitobans.
I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he will not only call an inquiry to look at the specific circumstances of Holiday Haven but also look at the impact of the increasing degree of privatization on our health care system.
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): That is a very sweeping statement by the member for Thompson. I would suggest if he look at the way we are in the process of regionalizing health care in this province, and we can get into the debate at some point in time about the merits of that particular issue and I invite that debate, but I think, if anything, in building the centralized authorities where we will have virtually all our facilities managed by 13 regional health boards, that is certainly not a privatization of the system; that is a centralization of a public health care system. I think the general trend is somewhat in the opposite to that that the member suggests.
Mr. Ashton: I am wondering if the minister will explain how moving to the regional system is anything but privatization when one of the aspects of the regionalization is the ability of the regions to contract-out services. When we have so many problems already with privatization in our health care system, why would we be embarking on major new privatizations through regionalization?
Mr. Praznik: I think if the member examines the big picture, and I look forward to that kind of discussion that we will no doubt have in the Estimates debate and perhaps the Throne Speech Debate, the fact of the matter is the vast majority of services provided in the health care system will still, and I would predict well into the future, be provided through those regional health associations directly. In fact, many of the steps that we are taking in helping to implement that I think further underline that fact. If an RHA tends to contract out some services such as laundry or commissary or some of the delivery, I do not think that undermines public health, if in fact it results in a saving to the system that allows us to spend more dollars on health care. I think it is very important to appreciate that big picture.
Mr. Ashton: My final supplementary, Madam Speaker. I want to ask the new Minister of Health if he will not take the opportunity to put a stop to the privatization and review the increasing degree of privatization in our health care system, whether it be home care or oxygen services or laboratory services and including our personal care homes. When will this government put a freeze on the degree of privatization in our system and deal with the very real root problems of moving towards a system of health care that is based on profit and not people?
Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I have been in this Assembly for a number of years now and I can tell the member I see the level of expenditure on health care from $1.3 billion on the first budget I stood here to vote on to over $1.8 billion today. This government has been very much committed to ensuring that Manitobans have a very good health care system and the vast majority of that has been and, I would predict, will continue to be within the public realm because it makes sense to be there for a host of reasons. But when we talk about seeing some privatization in a variety of areas that serve that, if in fact it provides a saving to the taxpayer that allows us to have more money for direct patient care, how does the member face the public of Manitoba to argue differently? We have to be ensuring that we are getting the best value for our dollar. The vast majority of patient care delivery has been and will continue to be in the realm of the public sector.
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Seven Oaks Hospital
Patient Transfers
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): My question is to the Minister of Health.
Last month the Boychuk family of West Kildonan told me that Mr. Boychuk Sr., who is now at Seven Oaks General Hospital, would be sent out of the community and out of the community hospital that we fought so hard for to Concordia Hospital while he awaits a personal care home bed at great stress to the family, particularly Mrs. Boychuk who is 85. Given Mr. Boychuk's health and given that all the family lives in the area, my question to the minister is, can he possibly explain his department's policy which sends family members out of the community or threatens a charge of $800 a day--and I will table that threat, Madam Speaker--while at the same time unit after unit is being closed in the hospital?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I do not know what this unit after unit being closed is, and I am not going to get into that issue. I am sure the facts would prove otherwise. I think the member would agree that what is very important within the system is that people be in appropriate beds.
I do not know the exact details in front of me today of the case the member raises and I would invite him to provide them to me to look into, but I would suggest--or I would suppose, and maybe the member could add in his question--but I would suppose that the issue has to do with being an acute care bed as opposed to a long-term care bed. As the member may be aware, Concordia Hospital, one of their changes in configuration of bed use in which they added I believe 2,700 bed days a year--they say 27 beds they will keep open now on weekends that they were not able to--was to put a long-term care unit in that facility, and that might in fact be the reason why that transfer was made. I am only speculating, Madam Speaker.
Acute Care Bed Costs
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister explain why it is the practice and the policy of his department and hospitals, at least Seven Oaks Hospital, to threaten families with a charge of $800 a day--and he will see that in the letter--and has the minister considered the impact on families in stress receiving that kind of a threat?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I fully appreciate as an MLA as well, from time to time there are exceptions to general rules that are created given circumstance, and that is certainly a place for an MLA to advocate on behalf of constituents. I have had them too where you have very elderly people, a room becomes available in Pine Falls and their base is in Beausejour and there are difficulties associated with that. Of course we want to ensure or work towards ensuring those things are taken into account in the system.
But in the general answer to the member's question, Madam Speaker, an acute care bed costing some $800 a day is not the appropriate place to house someone who requires long-term care. The member may talk about change of community, but Winnipeg is a relatively small city in world terms. We have seven facilities, two long-term care facilities and surely to goodness we have enough beds, we believe, to accommodate the needs of our population. It requires some flexibility in moving people around. I agree with the member, there are going to be exceptions to that rule and I would hope the system does react to that.
Community Hospitals
Interim Care Beds
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Given the minister's response, would he tell Manitobans why the system cannot accommodate interim care beds in community hospitals so that they can indeed serve the community that they are to serve, and why is the department failing to deal with the basic problem, which is the shortage of personal care homes in Manitoba? Suffering seniors are waiting one to two years for placement in a personal care home.
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, if my recollection serves me well, and I look to the former Minister of Health, Seven Oaks is a hospital that does have a long-care waiting area for just such purpose. I would assume that the reason this individual could not be accommodated, and I am guessing at this point, is because there was not room or there was space being made available at Concordia.
The member has flagged an issue that has plagued governments of both political stripes over the years, the need for more personal care home beds. We have added many, many personal care home beds in the province during our tenure. The need is still great. I acknowledge this and we are working towards adding another round of those as we move to consideration of our capital budget. But it is certainly a point that I fully recognize, that is where there is a great need today and it will require a lot of work on all of our parts to fill it.
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Education System
Special Needs Review
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. In the past this government has talked a lot about special needs students or special needs funding. This year in fact they finally incorporated it into the throne speech. But every year they talk about reviews, and this government has now been administrating the affairs for over eight and a half and finally we see some sort of indication that they are going to be doing it.
Madam Speaker, to compound what we perceive as a problem, we have a government now that is relying on the expertise of people in the private sector in order to rectify a problem that they perceive and which is real today.
My question to the Minister of Education is, why do we have to contract out the need to have a private firm to do consulting with respect to special needs funding or special education funding?
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I am pleased the member recognizes the significance of this 18- to 24-month review. It is a review that has been long needed in Manitoba and is finally underway and has been underway since this fall.
The steering committee that is heading up the review are not private sector people. It is comprised of people very highly knowledgeable about the whole area of special needs. They in turn have hired a researcher consultant to do their research work for them. The proposals were put out. The steering committee themselves, independent of government, government did not select the researcher consultant, the steering committee did. The steering committee is composed of people such as Dr. James Newton, head of the Manitoba Adolescent Treatment Centre, Mrs. Agnes Collins, a teacher chosen by the Manitoba Teachers' Society, free choice, not chosen by government, a parent of a special needs student who is very knowledgeable in the area, and people of that stature.
Madam Speaker, I see you giving me the wind-down signal, but it was a committee of people very knowledgeable, very, very committed. They in turn have selected a researcher, not government. Government will pay for it, however.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, then will the Minister of Education confirm that she does not have the faith in her own staff's ability to provide a valuable report that is in fact needed today, that what she in fact did was send out a proposal back in September requesting individuals to come forward who want to be able to do the investigating because her department, because of downsizing, does not have the ability any longer to be able to do the job that she is requesting?
Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, indeed, my department has a tremendous amount of ability and expertise, and we do have one representative through the Children and Youth Secretariat on the special needs steering committee. However, the member has identified something completely correct, and that is that the amount of time required to conduct a study of this intensity, this in-depth review, would require more people than the department currently has. Now I suppose we could hire someone for a term contract to do that because it is a concentrated area that will be complete within 18 to 24 months. If we did that, of course, then we would have accusations about not being impartial enough, that we were doing it without going to outside experts. It does not matter whether we do it internally or externally, as far as the opposition is concerned they will always find a way to be critical of the process.
This process is one that has been well thought through, discussed with a wide variety of people very intense on the issue, and we believe it will see very good results for the children and the taxpayers of Manitoba.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, we would ultimately argue that the Department of Education should have the resources available in which they can conduct such a study, as has been pointed out in their throne speech.
My question to the Minister of Education is, why does she feel that it is necessary to go beyond the Department of Education when it is the Department of Education's responsibility to ensure that we have adequate funding and programming for special needs students? Why do the taxpayers of Manitoba have to pay additional money in order to be able to get this particular job done when she should be able to do it within that department?
Mrs. McIntosh: I would point out to the honourable member that when we took office in 1988, funding for special needs students in Manitoba was $20 million. It is now $84 million and was that last year and is that this year. We have not cut in that area; we have continued to build tremendously in the amount of money given to special needs.
I might also point out to the member that when departments take on in-depth projects that are going to be concentrated efforts for short periods of time, it is a very good use of money to go and seek people. In this case, we have used a third party to do the seeking so it is completely impartial and free from what the member I am sure would call the taint of our ideology. It makes good economic sense to bring people in for those special projects rather than add to the size and cost of the bureaucracy to hire full-time people in permanent positions that then have no specific tasks once the review is complete. But that is the difference between the way they manage and the way we do.
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Education System
Breakfast/Nursery Programs
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, there has always been two faces to the Filmon government and for yet another year we have seen in the throne speech promises to deal about, quote, special problems of child poverty. Yet, the other face of this government, in fact, the real face of this government is the Minister of Education who believes that breakfast programs and nursery programs are, and I quote, costly enhancements.
I would like to ask the Minister of Education to tell the House today, to confirm that she does, in fact, believe--as she indicated to the Free Press--that nursery programs and breakfast programs are costly enhancements which do not provide an educational benefit to the students.
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I believe the member is taking two quotes and combining them in one.
Indeed, yes, the dollars for education are to be given for the acquisition of literacy, numerical computation, et cetera. Anything we do to enhance that is an enhancement, some very good enhancements. Breakfast programs, nursery school programs are excellent enhancements, but they should be funded from sources other than those dollars that were designated to teach reading, literacy, et cetera.
Indeed, Madam Speaker, we are working to see other ways to ensure with early intervention and early identification meeting early needs that we can through other vehicles achieve the same ends that are currently being met with the diversion of dollars that have been targeted to the teaching of academics, literacy, et cetera. The member is making reference in addition--and that is that they provide a very definite educational benefit, a very definite educational benefit, and I never said they did not. What I said, I prefer the fundraising done by Winnipeg No. 1 to be done in a way that is actually educational, not the end result for what is intended.
Ms. Friesen: Could the minister, who is the Minister of Education, tell us which educational programs have a greater impact on children in poverty, underattendance, their attention span, their classroom behaviour, their language skills, their long-term prospects, than early childhood education? How can she consider that to be a costly enhancement?
Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, perhaps it would help if I clarified for the viewing audience what the member is trying to imply. [interjection]
The member opposite suggested I turn, as he does, and face the cameras, so I will do that, Madam Speaker.
I would begin my answer now, Madam Speaker, if this is being timed. I now will begin the answer to the question, having been interrupted. I was asked if it was a good idea for Winnipeg No. 1 to raise money by applying for a lottery licence. I said they can raise money however they wish provided they get permission from Lotteries or whatever, because they were legally elected to make those decisions. However, I would prefer to see them have fundraising activities that actually had educational components, such as the one being done by Fort Garry where they raise money by providing an educational opportunity to their students, which is the interaction with foreign students, rather than some other way. That had nothing to do with the merits of the preschool program which are numerous and plenty and have dramatic and excellent effect on the educational opportunities for students.
Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, would the minister, who clearly believes that there is real education and costly enhancements, tell us whether in fact early childhood education and breakfast programs will not now form a part of any antipoverty initiative that may in the fullness of time emerge from yet another throne speech?
Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, perhaps this would help the member understand. We have four departments--five departments actually, because we have come together now with a fifth department. We have five departments that are working together and--[interjection]
Madam Speaker, we have five departments that have come together. They are Education, Justice, Health, Family Services and Native Affairs. We have come together to co-ordinate our activities to do the best we can for children at risk, children in need and we have formed what we call the Children and Youth Secretariat. They did some initiatives and a lot of planning, and this year you will begin to see specific initiatives coming out of all our planning that will co-ordinate our activities.
In order to identify where our activities are, we have to first identify our mandate. The mandate in Education and Training is to make sure that the dollars we have go to ensuring that students come out literate, able to compute, et cetera. We need to work, however, with other things that impact upon Education through Family Services and Health, to ensure they are well prepared for school. That would involve the programs the member mentions which we do not intend to ignore, as she implied.
Highways
Maintenance
Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My questions are for the Minister of Highways.
Over the past six years this government has cut nearly 600 Highways department jobs and is now poised to cut another 150 next month with the offloading of highway maintenance work. Last month this minister stated that he was serious about improving highways in rural and northern Manitoba. Why is he now offloading maintenance of the very roads that most need upgrading?
Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, in the process of being sure that we have adequate funds for the capital and maintenance of highways, we have to be sure that we maximize the efficiency of the maintenance of those roads. The member is clearly aware that for the course of a year now we have been dealing with the municipalities to establish contracts for maintenance of roads that they feel they could maintain. Subsequent to that we will look at other ways and means by which we can maintain those roads as cost efficiently as possible for the good of all Manitoba citizens.
Mr. Jennissen: How can this minister talk about maintaining standards when he knows that the amount of equipment and condition of equipment will vary widely, depending on the financial condition of individual municipalities?
Mr. Findlay: Madam Speaker, fundamentally in the area of efficiency, we know that every municipality has equipment that they use for grading gravel roads. Clearly, we have a duplication of equipment when we are in those municipalities doing gravel road maintenance, whether it is summer or winter. Also, there is a construction industry out there that has like equipment that can do the work. So our owning equipment is really, in many cases, a duplication of equipment that is already in those areas, either in municipal hands or in the hands of contractors.
Mr. Jennissen: How does this latest round of privatization fit with the so-called decentralization of services to rural communities?
Mr. Findlay: The number of kilometres of road in rural Manitoba and the number of maintenance activities needed to be done in rural Manitoba will not change one iota. There will still be the same amount of work out there to be conducted by the same number of people, whether in the employ of the government of Manitoba or in the employ of a municipality. Nothing changes in terms of the hours of work necessary or the degree to which the roads are maintained.
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Regional Health Authorities
Postponement
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, this government has talked about the regional health authorities taking over the delivery of health care, but in fact plans are not ready and in the throne speech the government says health authorities are being developed.
Since needs assessments are not done and will not be done for some time and people in rural Manitoba are concerned about losing services, will the Minister of Health today agree to put the plan to move the regional health authorities on hold until needs assessments are done and all these issues are addressed?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would certainly agree with the member for Swan River if we were expecting rural health authorities to take over on April 1 and have in place a host of changes. That would be certainly totally unrealistic, and I would agree with her if that is the premise of her question. Consequently, in working through the takeover for April 1, we have done a number of things, including adjusting the budget targets to allow the RHAs to take over the authorities at the same level of funding and to achieve their economies later in the fiscal year.
We are working on some agreements now with respect to the unions involved to ensure that there is a period of transition of up to a year that no one's pay cheque goes for naught because of a transition. We are working almost on a daily basis with the RHAs, as they prepare to take over, to make sure that the issues that need to be dealt with are, and they will--and I can assure the member--over the next year be working on the changes that they want to make to improve health care in their regions.
Level of Service
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, the minister just said that none will be laid off for one year.
Can the minister give us his assurances that we will not have layoffs in the following year, that we will continue to have the level of service in rural Manitoba that we have now, and they will not suffer because of budget cutbacks from this government?
Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, what I did say was that the staff from the province, for example, will be transferring under the control of the RHA. We wanted to make sure that there was a transition in terms of their pay and benefits as that transferred over so that there would not be a rush to change payroll systems, et cetera. We want RHAs to have enough time to do that. There will no doubt be changes.
The member for Swan River said, we want rural Manitobans to continue to enjoy the quality they receive. I do not know if the member is aware that bed occupancy in rural Manitoba across the system is 58 percent. Two-thirds of our acute care beds of that 58 percent are being used for nonacute care purposes. There are many services that rural Manitobans do not enjoy today because there is not a large enough pool of people to allow those services to happen. I would suggest to her that the level of service in rural Manitoba today is not what we want to have. We want to have better service, and that is what regionalization is about, Madam Speaker.
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I also want better care in rural Manitoba.
I want to ask the minister if what we are going to see in rural Manitoba is similar to what we see in Winnipeg where we have long lineups and difficulties that patients are facing unable to receive care. Is that the plan he has for rural Manitoba as well?
Mr. Praznik: I have no doubt that the member for Swan River shares with us the need to improve our delivery mechanisms in health care. I do not doubt her sincerity at all. She flags issues of lineups and, believe me, as the new Health minister, I had to deal with those in the first few weeks, but if there ever is a reason to move ahead to regionalization of our governance structures, it is to be able to put in place the mechanisms that will allow services and resources to be able to move and patients to be moved ultimately to where they can receive the care they need.
I can point out to the member many instances where we currently are not doing things well because of our governance structure, and that has to change, Madam Speaker.
Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.