Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, in the last provincial election, this Premier and his caucus promised that they would not sell the Manitoba Telephone System. Last night an overwhelming number of people, including the Manitoba Union of Municipalities that represents 160 municipalities in rural and northern Manitoba and Manitoba seniors and others, spoke against the government's break of its election promise to sell the Manitoba Telephone System. It is rather ironic that today the brokers in Toronto are doing the Hallelujah Chorus about the Premier's broken promise, but people on Main Street, Manitoba, are absolutely opposed to this government breaking its promise and selling off our telephone system.

Will the Premier now do the correct thing, take the correct practice and keep his promise and do not sell the Manitoba Telephone System, as you promised in the election campaign?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the New Democrats must be running out of material for Question Period. I think that is probably the 46th time that the Leader of the Opposition has asked the same question. The New Democrats are proud of the fact that they have no new ideas and that is why they remain in opposition.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable First Minister, to complete his response.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as I have said before when asked the question leading up to the election campaign and during the election campaign, I said we had no plans to sell the Manitoba Telephone System, and I talked about its monopoly position and various other things. I have said over and over again about the fact that the telephone system has over 70 percent of its revenues in competition, the fact that it is in the area of the most rapidly changing technology in the world, that it has decisions to make that will require injections in the near term of hundreds of millions of dollars, that the taxpayer already has $800 million at risk through its guarantee of the debt, that it has the highest debt-equity ratio of any telco in Canada, and on all those counts it is our judgment that in the long-term interests of protecting the taxpayer and indeed the interests of the people of Manitoba, we have made the decision to proceed with the commercialization of Manitoba Telephone System.

Indeed, we have committee underway, and, indeed, there are presentations being made. I know that many of them are being orchestrated. The junior Choices and junior New Democrats are out there handing out slips and organizing people to come before committee, so under all those circumstances, we believe that we are pursuing the best course for the Manitoba Telephone System and for the people of Manitoba.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, maybe it is an old idea or a new idea but the idea to keep your word from an election promise to when you are in government is an idea that we will support. Perhaps, the Premier will--[interjection] I asked the question directly, from the UMM, and the Premier, of course, chose to ignore it and debate some other issues, but the rural municipalities have said that the Manitoba Telephone System has been a benefit for rural and northern communities. They have pointed out that the debt that is guaranteed by the province has never meant that the taxpayers have put any money into that organization, as the Premier knows. The Premier knows the asset is worth more than the debt. He knows that, but he does not tell Manitobans that. The rural municipalities go on to say that a private profit company would deal with only profits, and a publicly owned corporation would be concerned about rates and capital investment in rural and northern Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, they are asking this government to listen to rural and northern Manitobans that took their government on its word that they would not sell the telephone system; they are asking them now to keep their word and keep Manitoba Telephone System owned by Manitobans. Will the Premier listen to the UMM, as their brief was presented today?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Telephone System will continue to operate in Manitoba with the head office in Manitoba, with services available to Manitobans throughout the province and with efficient and effective services as has been the history and the tradition of the Manitoba Telephone System, and it will certainly carry on under private ownership.

The Manitoba seniors' organization has studied all the arguments of the Premier. They talk about return on investment; they talk about capital investment; they talk about the higher requirements of return from a privately owned company. They ask the government to reconsider the position they will take on behalf of rural Manitobans, on behalf of northern Manitobans who will have to pay higher rates and on behalf of lower income Manitobans, often who are senior citizens. These are people speaking out for seniors here in Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, if the Premier could not keep his word from the election campaign and if he will not listen to people at the public hearings who overwhelmingly oppose his position, will he have a democratic plebiscite across Manitoba so all shareholders can vote on this rather than just 31 people who have broken their word to the people of Manitoba after the election campaign?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, this government was democratically elected by the people of Manitoba to exercise our best judgment on behalf of Manitobans to ensure that we were looking at the long-term interests of the people of Manitoba and their requirements for telecommunication services, their assurances that we will be able to provide for their needs at reasonable cost. We believe that in the best interests of those people in Manitoba, the long-term interests of our province will be better served by the commercialization of the Manitoba Telephone System.

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Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): The Premier once again refuses to let the people of Manitoba decide over the future of their phone system. In fact, yesterday at the committee hearings his government caucus voted down even having rural and northern hearings.

I would like to ask a question to the Premier--and by the way, for the Premier's edification, the UMM represents 166 municipalities in Manitoba. It came to the committee and said, we are here today to state our opposition to Bill 67 and the privatization of the Manitoba Telephone System.

I would like to ask the Premier when he will do the right thing and authorize this Legislature to have hearings throughout rural and northern Manitoba, so we can hear directly from many rural residents and northern residents who are saying exactly the same thing as the UMM, that this government does not have any right to sell off their telephone system.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, we are hearing from rural and northern Manitobans. I understand that some 51 of the presentations to be made at committee are from people outside the city of Winnipeg. I know, as well, that senior officials of Manitoba Telephone System have gone throughout the province. They have met with municipal governments. They have met with chambers of commerce. They have met with local community groups who have requested their presence, and they have indeed provided a great deal of information to those who were interested in that information.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, when will the Premier start telling the truth to Manitobans, that in the election in 1995 it was his strategy to deceive the people of Manitoba and, right now, that this government is willing to do anything to ram through the sale of MTS? It does not matter what role that northern Manitobans or any Manitobans say, this Premier is dictating to the province what is going to happen with the Manitoba Telephone System.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I spend time as much as I possibly can listening to people from all over the province. I try and travel to all areas of the province as I have--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: Even within the past two weeks, I have been to places such as Morden, Winkler, The Pas, Neepawa and various--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: My cabinet colleagues and I, Madam Speaker, even within the past weeks since we have been in session, have held cabinet tours throughout much of Winnipeg, various different areas of the city. In all cases, we attempt to do what we are elected to do, which is to listen, to consult and to ultimately use our best judgment, which is the reason we were elected to office.

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, King Solomon once said, when you make a vow, do not delay fulfilling it, for the Lord has no pleasure in fools. It is better not to vow at all and not fulfill it.

My question is directed to the Premier. What does his government intend to do to help seniors who, because they are on fixed pensions and fixed incomes, can no longer afford the increased rate that is likely, as proven by the Alberta experience of privatization?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, despite the phone call that the member for Broadway received from King Solomon, I tend to think that the member for Broadway nor his colleagues possess all of the wisdom in the world. They are stuck philosophically in a time 80 and 90 years ago. They cling to the past as though it were a life raft when the whole world is changing.

Madam Speaker, I repeat for the member opposite: There have been increases granted to both publicly owned and privately owned telephone systems throughout Canada. There have been massive increases in various rate categories in Saskatchewan, a publicly owned telephone company, even in the past year.

The members opposite see this in pure philosophical terms, and there is obviously nothing that I could say that would change their minds.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Broadway, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Given that the Premier has still time to fulfill his promise, why can he not consider other alternatives such as amalgamation with SaskTel or by issuing government bonds comparable to the HydroBonds?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, bonds that are guaranteed by the government are exactly the same as the current debt scenario. It is guaranteed by the government. It does not help us to borrow more money. What does help us is to get equity investment put into the telephone system to relieve the burden of the debt off the taxpayer of Manitoba. That is the only relief that will come to the taxpayer. That is why we are privatizing the Manitoba Telephone System.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I have in my hand the unanimous resolution passed by the Town Council of Grandview, Manitoba, asking this government to do public hearings in rural Manitoba and asking that a vote of the shareholders be taken before they sell off our company. The people of Grandview feel absolutely betrayed by this government. This government has no mandate to do what it is doing, and it has no moral right to sell this telephone system on these folks in Grandview.

My question to the Premier is this: Why do you not have the courage to face the people of Grandview and be accountable?

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Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I would expect that over the course of the next while, I will be able to face the people of Grandview as I have faced people everywhere in this province. In case the members opposite have not noticed, I am held accountable every day that I am in office, and I expect that I will continue to be held accountable for a long, long time.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Dauphin, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Struthers: In the election, you told the people of Grandview you were not going to sell the MTS--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Dauphin that there is to be no postamble and no preamble on a supplementary question. Would the honourable member please put his question now.

Mr. Struthers: Can the Premier explain how he has the right to sell MTS with no rural public hearings and no vote of the MTS shareholders?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, we have public hearings underway at the present time. That is the basis on which discussions are taking place at committee--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable First Minister, to complete his response.

Mr. Filmon: --and that is the basis upon which many Manitobans are being heard, and, indeed, the presentations that are being quoted from today are as a result of the fact that this Legislature, unique to Legislatures throughout North America, holds public hearings on all bills that are brought into this Legislature. As a result, we do have the public being represented, and indeed when the votes take place in this Legislature with respect to this bill, all Manitobans will be represented.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. In this House we have two political parties which like to believe that they are tough on crime, yet both these parties refuse to listen to the chief of the Winnipeg Police Services and the chief of the Brandon Police service who are responsible for the protection of the 65 percent of Manitobans who live in large urban centres. The police chiefs, on a daily basis, make professional decisions on how best to combat crime, and they support a national firearms registry as a useful tool to combat crime.

Why does the Minister of Justice claim to follow the best advice of the Corrections department when dealing with the Headingley riot but refuses to listen to the experts and the chiefs in law enforcement that support a national firearms registry?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as the member very well knows, our government supports all matters that have been put forward in the interests of crime control, in the interests of prevention and the interests of public safety, but there has been absolutely no information put forward to this government or to any other government across this country which indicates that the registration of firearms will in fact reduce criminal activity. There are also a number of opinions held by police officers within police ranks. We will continue to support any plan which in fact will assist us in the area of public safety, but this administrative scheme which is very, very expensive, we believe that money is better spent in the proven areas of crime control in the interests of public safety for the people of Manitoba.

Mr. Kowalski: Can the minister table any evidence that the national firearms registry will not improve the effectiveness of law enforcement in Manitoba?

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Mrs. Vodrey: The member well knows that this is an administrative scheme put forward by the federal Liberal government. The responsibility rests with the federal Liberal government to put forward information that will explain to the people of Canada, specifically to the people of Manitoba, why in fact firearms registration will improve their public safety.

Now, we have put forward to the federal Liberal government a number of initiatives which in fact will improve public safety, particularly in the interests of women, and we have had no reply. We have asked that the section of the Criminal Code dealing with penalties be enlarged so that where there is a weapon used, rather than just a firearm, there be significant and additional penalties. We have asked for the repeal of Section 745 of the Criminal Code. We have put forward a number of initiatives which the federal Liberal government has chosen to ignore. Instead, they put forward an administrative scheme with no evidence whatsoever that it will be of any assistance in the interests of public safety.

Mr. Kowalski: Does the minister believe that the chiefs of police of the two largest urban police forces in Manitoba would advocate a national firearms registry if it wasted their resources?

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, it is fact that the issue of resources is one of great concern to our whole province. Now, of course, we know the Liberals tend to only focus on the city of Winnipeg, that the provincial Liberals have no sense of the fact that our responsibility is to deal with the whole province. We are dealing with resources not only in the city of Winnipeg, we are dealing with resource issues across our whole province.

Madam Speaker, we are well aware of the fact that resources that are required in the interests of public safety to be available to respond to the people of Manitoban will be tied up in an administrative scheme. Those police officers will be removed from the street. Crown attorneys would be tied up. So our government has chosen to do two things. We, No. 1, have said we challenge the jurisdiction of the federal government in court, and we are participating with other provinces as well. We will not be administering this scheme. It will be up to the federal government to administer that scheme and pay for it.

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My questions are for the Premier. Will the Premier cancel the $400,000 advertising campaign promoting the sale of MTS and use some of those tax dollars to hold public hearings on the sale of MTS in rural and northern Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Telephone System makes decisions about spending money on advertising--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Telephone System makes decisions about spending dollars on advertising to ensure that it informs its ratepayers, informs its customers about its services and about the various issues that pertain to the Manitoba Telephone System. Quite evidently, the Manitoba Telephone System needs to ensure that the public is well informed about the issues surrounding the telephone system and its activities because they certainly do not get accurate information from members opposite.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Jennissen: To the Premier again: Is the real reason that this government refuses to hold hearings outside the Legislative Building the fact that the private owners of MTS will want full cost recovery, thus increasing the cost of basic monthly telephone service to $50 per month for subscribers in some northern communities?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Telephone System now and in the future, under public or private ownership, will be regulated by the CRTC, and all those kinds of judgments about rate setting, rate rebalancing and all of the rate-related aspects of operations of the telephone system will be made by the objective third-party review of the CRTC. That will continue regardless of, as I say, public or private ownership today or in the future.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, once again, the Premier is not telling the truth to Manitobans because Albertans are paying $6 a month--

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson, to pose a question.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I was on my preamble to my first question and pointing out once again that the Premier was not telling the truth to Manitobans about the impact of privatization.

I want to focus again on the issue of public hearings outside of this building. Yesterday, we had indication from many people from rural Manitoba who were on the list who said they would only be able to make presentations if the committee went to other areas of the province. We have had hearings on the municipal assessment. This government has approved hearings now for the Child Advocate bill. They send their backbenchers around the province having task forces.

Why will the Premier not let the people of rural and northern Manitoba have direct contact with the members of the Legislature by holding hearings in rural and northern Manitoba on Bill 67?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the only strangers to the truth in this House sit in the New Democratic caucus.

With respect to the rest of the question, it has already been answered.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary question.

Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, given the extraordinary circumstances, we in the New Democratic Party are willing to adjourn this House, if it takes having hearings, and that is why I would move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that this House do now adjourn.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has moved a motion that is entirely out of order according to our Rule 30(2). A motion to adjourn the House shall not be made until the Orders of the Day have been entered upon.

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Mr. Ashton: Given the extraordinary circumstances we are faced with, with the Manitoba Telephone System, I challenge your ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please say yea.

Some Honourable Members: Yea.

Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay.

Some Honourable Members: Nay.

Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it.

Mr. Ashton: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members.

Order, please. The ruling of the Chair having been challenged, the question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained.

A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows:

Cummings, Derkach, Downey, Driedger, Dyck, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gaudry, Gilleshammer, Helwer, Lamoureux, Laurendeau, McAlpine, McCrae, McIntosh, Mitchelson, Newman, Pallister, Penner, Pitura, Praznik, Radcliffe, Reimer, Render, Rocan, Stefanson, Sveinson, Toews, Tweed, Vodrey.

Ashton, Barrett, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (Interlake), Friesen, Hickes, Jennissen, Lathlin, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGifford, Mihychuk, Reid, Robinson, Sale, Santos, Struthers, Wowchuk.

Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 32, Nays 23.

Madam Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is accordingly sustained.

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Madam Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my left, where we have with us this afternoon Councillor John Angus, who was the member for St. Norbert from 1988 to 1990.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

Madam Speaker: Prior to recommencing Question Period, I would like to remind all honourable members that, according to Beauchesne Citations 501 and 502, exhibits are prohibited to be used in the Chamber.

Madam Speaker: There are four minutes remaining for Question Period.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier, and it is to follow-up yesterday's Question Period where I posed a question to try to get assurances from the First Minister with respect to Manitoba Hydro. Today, I would ask the Premier to make it as simple as possible in terms of what his government's intentions are for the future of Manitoba Hydro. Is the government giving today any consideration whatsoever to the privatization of Manitoba Hydro?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I think I responded to that yesterday in saying, no, we are not at the present time giving any consideration to the privatization of Manitoba Hydro. I told him that I could not anticipate what might happen, as in the case of the article in the newspaper where the former chairman of Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Len Bateman, speculated about the major shift and change that deregulation would have on the operations of Hydro and how he felt that obviously we would have to give it serious consideration. So I cannot start to speculate about circumstances that would cause us to change our position, but at the moment there is absolutely no thought being given to it.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Will the Premier then give a commitment that he is prepared to consult Manitobans before he makes any sort of a decision that might ultimately end in the privatization of Manitoba Hydro?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, this government has continued to listen to and consult with Manitobans as long as it has been in office. In fact, I would argue that it is probably one of the reasons why we were re-elected for a third term.

Madam Speaker, we consistently go on cabinet tours throughout the province. We hold public forums and opportunities to gain feedback. We listen to people in all areas of the province, in all sectors of the economy. I speak to chambers of commerce, service clubs. We go throughout the province and listen and consult at all times, and so I would give him the assurance that we will carry on with that kind of approach to government, listening and consulting. We believe it is a hallmark of our government. We believe it is the right way to--

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Filmon: We believe it is important to any democratic government.

Mr. Lamoureux: Would the Premier acknowledge that Manitobans as a whole do not feel that the government consulted them or had permission with respect to MTS, and how is he going to be able to ensure or at least assure Manitobans that Manitoba Hydro will be treated in a different fashion, where in fact Manitobans will feel, not only perceive, but will feel that they have been consulted prior to this government making any decision on the privatization of it?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, Manitobans, as a whole, believe that their government ought to always exercise its best judgment when it makes decisions on behalf of Manitobans. I believe that we are elected, first and foremost, to be exercising our judgment on a whole range of issues no matter what may come forward. People can never anticipate what things may face a government that requires it to do its analysis, to as much as possible listen and consult and then ultimately to make decisions. Governments elect us to make decisions on any and all things that come before us. That is a fundamental responsibility.

I know that particularly members of the New Democratic Party speak on all sides of an issue. They speak out of all sides of their mouths. They go and have the luxury of being able to say anything and everything on any forum and--

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, Beauchesne is very clear that answers to questions should be brief, relate to the matter raised and not provoke debate. This First Minister should lecture no one in this House. He should lecture no one in this province about being two-faced, as he is the one who said he would not sell off MTS and is now selling off our birthright, the Manitoba Telephone System.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I would remind the honourable First Minister to keep his answers as brief as possible and speak to the question asked and not provoke debate.

Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to quickly complete his response.

Mr. Filmon: To be brief, I will reiterate that we will make decisions and use our best judgment on all the issues that come before us now and in the future.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.