(Concurrent Sections)

URBAN AFFAIRS

Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. This section of the Committee of Supply, sitting in Room 254, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Urban Affairs. When the committee was last considering the Estimates of this department, it was on line 1.(b), on page 134 of the main Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Chair, I was asking questions on the changes that had taken place from the workbook on the Capital Region Strategy to the Applying Manitoba's Capital Region Policy, final document, and I have two questions that I would like to ask the minister about.

One is on page 14 of the new document, Applying Manitoba's Capital Region Policy and it is in the area of sustainable land use, policy No. 2.1. In the Capital Region Strategy book the first action states, develop a long-term comprehensive, sustainable development plan for the Capital Region, and has all five areas covered. It states that the Manitoba government, municipal government, other governments and public sector organizations, private sector and NGOs and individuals will be responsible for this action. It is the first one under sustainable land use.

Maybe it is found elsewhere in the new document, but I cannot find anywhere under sustainable land use or anything else that says, develop a long-term comprehensive, sustainable development plan for the Capital Region, and I am wondering if the minister can explain the elimination of that action plan.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Chairman, it has been pointed out to me that the policy that the member is referring to, policy 2.1(a), which was included in the Capital Region Strategy workbook, was included in order to gage the public support for the strategy. One hundred percent of the respondents stated that they either strongly agreed, or agreed with this need for the strategy. Therefore, we felt that it was not necessary to include policy 2.1(a) in the final documents. The document itself already fulfilled the requirements of the policy statement.

Ms. Barrett: So what the minister is saying is that the document, Applying Manitoba's Capital Region Policy is now seen as a long-term comprehensive, sustainable development plan for the Capital Region.

Mr. Reimer: Yes.

Ms. Barrett: I will not belabour the point but I just would like to put on the record that this document is not necessarily a bad document or an incomplete document, but I would suggest that it most certainly is not a long-term comprehensive, sustainable development plan for the Capital Region. If that is what the minister is saying, then we really are, in a Capital Region, in trouble.

I have one other question about the document and that is on page 45, and I guess in light of the minister's response to my earlier question this becomes even more important. This is the strategy review and amendment section and it says that Capital Region Strategy will be regularly reviewed and amended.

I would like to ask the minister, who will review and what is the definition of “regularly”?

* (1600)

Mr. Reimer: It should be pointed out that further on, on that same page, that the member is referring to, page 45, that the review process is outlined, and the fact is that there will be an annual progress report that it will be submitted to, plus the fact that there will be a five-year review that is adapted to the regional capital committee, so a process has been established for ongoing monitoring and input for the strategy and the reporting of it.

Ms. Barrett: Under the five-year review, as well on page 45, within five years from the date the Capital Region Strategy is adopted, there will be a comprehensive review of the strategy. I would like to ask the minister, when the strategy was actually adopted? What is the date that that five years begins, and will that review be publicly released?

Mr. Reimer: The adaptation of it was in March 1, 1996. So if we are looking at five years, that is 2001 which will be gone through, as mentioned here, through a public consultation process at that time.

Ms. Barrett: Thank you, and the second part of my question which was, will the review process when it is concluded be publicly released?

Mr. Reimer: It would be set up in the strategy and the same guidelines as the original process that was set up through this workbook--with a workbook and then a response and then, you know, with public consultation to follow from that too.

Ms. Barrett: Yes, one final question, or comment actually on this review process. As I have stated in the House on several occasions and as we dealt with quite extensively in last year's Estimates, the Capital Region Committee has some major problems, from our point of view, one of them being that it has actually no authority, to my understanding, it has no authority to actually implement anything. Secondly, the committee does not reflect the composition and a proportionality of the population in the Capital Region. The city of Winnipeg with almost two-thirds of the population of the entire province has only the same number of member, one representative, as do all the other municipalities in the Capital Region.

It seems to me that if the government is stating that this document is a long-range, long-term comprehensive planning document that the implementation or the overview or the overseeing of the implementation of these action plans needs to be done by a group that has some clout and done by a group that represents more fairly what the Capital Region actually looks like. I think it is fair to say, not being a party to the Capital Region Committee, that they have a hard time reaching consensus, and there are some legitimate reasons for that. The way it is structured now seems to me designed to make it difficult, if not impossible, to actually implement what are some very good strategies as outlined in this document. I would hope that the minister would take a look at some of the issues that we have raised about this process and this committee, in particular, and look at changing the committee or adding something to it that would enable it to function in a fairer, more equitable and more representative manner.

Mr. Reimer: The member brings up an interesting concept, because what is happening just as we speak right now is a First Ministers' Conference up in the Yukon where you have the First Ministers of the provinces plus the federal government in a setting of conversations and consensus building. Just as the consensus and the co-operation and the consultation they seek in that type of relationship where the federal government which has the so-called power and the clout is at that table, it has the same type of one vote, if you want to call it, even though this is not in a voting position.

The Capital Region is not set up that there is a vote per se. It is set up for the consultation and the co-operation and the co-ordination between the Capital Regions in a cohesive manner to come to an understanding and acceptance of problems and a common sharing of resources for the betterment of the whole region. Similar to what is happening on the national scene right now with the First Ministers in the fact that all provinces go to the table with an equal voice just as what is happening here with the Capital Region Strategy, that even though the city of Winnipeg, as pointed out by the member, does have a very significant population base, it is in the same contents, in the same purview, as the Capital Region for the consultation process.

So there is a lot of merit and there is a lot strength in the system of having a consensus building and a co-operation and a co-ordination of ideas and viewpoints and directions instead of having the threat or the overbearance of one particular jurisdiction over another, similar to what as alluded to with the federal government over a smaller province such as Ontario, which has a large population, having more authority than, say, Prince Edward Island or Saskatchewan or Manitoba.

I think that this is not unprecedented. It is something that this country and this province should be proud of, is in trying to build relationships and co-operation so that there is not always one in a power position that says that it is my way or the highway or that we are in a more populous area so that we should have more authority to make these decisions or changes that affect everybody in this capital region. I think the capital region has a tremendous opportunity and a tremendous future because more and more--the realization that there has to be co-operation between all levels of jurisdictions.

The way to do that best is to sort of hash out the problems together and try to make the give-and-take of decision making.

* (1610)

Mr. Chairperson: 20.1.(b) Executive Support $211,200--pass.

20.2. Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg (a) Unconditional Current Programs Grant $19,587,500--pass; (b) Unconditional Transit Operating Grant $16,339,000--pass; (c) General Support Grant $7,987,500--pass; (d) Dutch Elm Disease Control Program $700,000--pass; (e) Unconditional Grant - Urban Development $6,400,000--pass.

Resolution 20.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $51,014,000 for Urban Affairs, Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.

20.3. Urban Affairs Program Support (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $516,500--pass; (b) Other Expenditures $221,500--pass; (c) Capital Region Sustainable Development Strategy--no entry; (d) Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Development Agreement $880,000--pass.

Resolution 20.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,618,000 for Urban Affairs, Urban Affairs Program Support, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.

20.4. Expenditures Related to Capital (a) Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg $16,000,000--pass; (b) Urban Initiatives $500,000--pass; (c) Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Development Agreement $880,000--pass; (d) Red River Floodway Control Structure $500,000--pass.

Resolution 20.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $17,880,000 for Urban Affairs, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.

The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Urban Affairs is item 1.(a) Minister's Salary. At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item.

Item 20.1. Administration (a) Minister's Salary. Shall the item pass?

Ms. Barrett: Mr. Chair, I just have one comment and then I am prepared to pass this item as well.

The minister stated in his final response to my question about the Capital Region Committee that it is necessary to have co-operation between all levels of jurisdiction. He spoke about the--it is actually the western Premiers' meeting in Dawson, and he also spoke about the Capital Region Committee itself and the need to have consensus and co-operation.

The minister in his opening remarks when these Estimates began also spoke, actually three separate occasions, in those opening remarks about the need for the province to be proactive with the city, the need for the province to work with the city, the need for the province to have responsibility for and understand the needs of the city of Winnipeg, which is, as I have stated in the House this afternoon, unique in Canada. Manitoba's population distribution is absolutely unique in Canada, where two-thirds of the people in the province live in one municipality.

I would just make the point that I agree with the minister. I agree with the minister on his comments opening the Estimates and his comments here this afternoon about co-operation. I would suggest to the minister as I did this afternoon in the House that he can have all the good will in the world about co-operating with and being proactive with the City of Winnipeg, but as long as his Leader, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of the province, makes comments like he has made in response to issues, legitimate issues of concern raised by the City of Winnipeg to the province, there will be no co-operation. There will be no working together. If both parties are not prepared to meet and sit down and talk, then there is not going to be any positive outcome.

This is not an agreement working between equals. The way our Constitution is set up and the way municipalities relate to the provinces throughout the country, it cannot be equal. The city is subsumed under the province's jurisdiction in many, many of its areas, most particularly financial, the ability to raise revenue and the inability, the prohibition against an operating debt and deficit. So as long as that inequality, that power differential exists, it is even more incumbent, I would suggest to the minister, that the provincial government, the powerful partner, be acknowledging at least the validity of the concerns. You can disagree with it, and I think the city would state and probably accurately that no government has given it the kind of authority that it wants nor the kind of resources that it feels it needs. That is legitimate. Get together and have a discussion and a dialogue.

But for the Premier of the province, a former member of City Council, the head of a cabinet that has, I believe, five or six former Winnipeg city councillors on it and has always had former city councillors in his cabinet, for the Premier to make comments like he has made in the last week about City Council and the needs and the concerns of the city of Winnipeg is reprehensible, and it would seem to me that it makes the minister's job just that much more difficult.

I do not think the minister for one moment believes that what the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said was constructive in any way, and I am sure he wishes that the Premier had not made those comments. He might not. I mean, he may think that the Premier is right on with his comments. I would hope he does not. It certainly is not right on with what the minister has said in his comments last year, this year, throughout his tenure as minister.

I feel sorry, in a way, for the minister because he has to deal with the fallout from this, and I feel sorry and hurt and betrayed on behalf of the citizens of Winnipeg, that their government, the Leader of their government, the head of their government, has the lack of class and the uncaringness and the in-your-face attitude that was evidenced by his comments in the last week and also his comments over the last little while. I think it is a shame, and it does not make anybody's job any easier. I wish the minister well, because he is going to need all of his skills in order to overcome what his Premier has done to the people of the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 20.1. Administration (a) Minister's Salary $12,600--pass.

Resolution 20.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $223,800 for Urban Affairs, Administration, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997.

This now completes the Estimates of the Department of Urban Affairs.