Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Toews), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Ben Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Health.

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

(Concurrent Sections)

EDUCATION AND TRAINING

Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training.

When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 4.(g)(1) on page 39 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass?

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could tell us how many individuals were trained under the old Gateway program and the New Careers program when they were still in existence in this department. I think some of them may still be there in part.

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Chairman, because that goes back past two years, we do not have the information here, but we can search the records and go into the old records, find the information and bring it tomorrow or the next day for tabling. That was for Gateway.

The New Careers, for New Careers North we had in '94-95, 74; in '95-96, 48; and this year, expected 52, and that is the actual, the estimated and the projected. The new intake during the year, the actual in '94-95, 218; the estimated in '95-96, 221; the projected '96-97, 118.

So the total served, therefore, the actual '94-95, 292; the estimated '95-96, 269; and the projected '96-97, 170.

In terms of the outcomes, the completion rate, we are projecting that in this year or in the year that we are in, '96-97, that we will see 85 percent as a completion rate. The employment rate at the program completion we are pegging and expecting to be 80 percent.

Ms. Friesen: Is there anything left of the Gateway program?

Mrs. McIntosh: No, it has not existed for some years now.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, in the most recently available annual report of the department, it says that there were 571 people served by Gateway. What we have in the minister's numbers that she has given us, in New Careers North and New Careers, we are also seeing fewer numbers of people served.

What I am looking at is the training programs in this section of the department and my sense is from the numbers that I have been able to put together, and I certainly do not have all of them, is that fewer people are being trained and that what the minister has substituted is employment connections with 700 anticipated clients, as it says in here, but this is not training. It may be help in getting a job, we will have to see the fruits of that program, but it is not training. It is not certificates; it is not added-on training; it is not laddering; it is not apprenticeship; it is not basic literacy. It is not any of the things which were served by the Gateway program and by the larger New Careers program.

I am wondering if the minister has made this as a conscious decision. Is there a policy direction here that we should be looking for and that will be expanded upon? Is this the direction the government is going?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, there has been a policy thrust to take a look at providing training for single mothers, single parents, primarily women, and you will see that in the vast increases in the numbers served for single parents. For example, you will see 1,100 clients served under Making Welfare Work where the Taking Charge! program has provided training for single parents on welfare. You will also see programs such as Single Parent Job Access, et cetera, Employment Connections. Indeed, the member has mentioned one of several, not one alone.

Perhaps if the member had looked down to look at other programs instead of just Employment Connections, she would have seen that increase for single parents and single moms, increased training for them. We think that is a fairly appropriate emphasis to put. I do not know if the member would agree with that or not, but we think that is an important target group and I believe I have heard the opposition express concerns about wanting training for single moms in particular. So I think this is one that probably would meet opposition expectations as to a good way to spend money, as well.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell me how many individuals were trained in both the Taking Charge! program and other areas of Making Welfare Work, if there are indeed other programs in that area?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, I believe I just said two or three times at least on the Taking Charge! alone 1,100. That is from 225 which is a fairly significant increase, and the Youth NOW from 186 to 486, and those are Making Welfare Work programs.

Of course, there are other programs for training, but if you are referring specifically to the Making Welfare Work, those are ones that are identified specifically for those clients. There may be other people on welfare receiving training, but these ones are identified as such.

Ms. Friesen: What transferable skills would the people in both of those programs have? What certifiable skills will they have at the end of their training program? How long is the training program, and does the minister have a costing for the Taking Charge! program?

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Mrs. McIntosh: In regard to the budget, we are currently negotiating and working with the federal government on the money that we will be splitting this year for Taking Charge! which is one in which we have the federal government as partners, so we do not have that concluded.

With regard to criteria in terms of what are we looking for and what transferable skills do they bring out, obviously when we are looking at training for people who are out of the job market, of course, we have definite things that we are looking to achieve.

One of the things that we are looking to achieve is that training be able to be used in a variety of places. It was one of the things about Workforce 2000, the training that used to be in place which we have now disbanded but I particularly liked in Workforce 2000 the ability to have businesses teaching employees skills that could be transferable. The member was not a fan of that particular program, but I felt the emphasis on training for transferable skills was important, and I am pleased that I hear inherent in her question some indication that she too may now have changed her mind and thinks that that is an important thing to be seeking because we have felt it all along.

So having indicated my pleasure in her change of direction there, I would indicate that we are looking for the ability in specific areas, specific job skills. We provide help to parents as they go through this. Customer services and marketing, agent training program, health care, home care aide training program, these are programs that have been initiated through the Taking Charge! initiative.

They are also taking a look at resources for women. They have counselling, they have the family centre, Andrews Street Family Centre which has initiated a program there, and most of the confidence building efforts that are taking place, in fact, I would say, first and foremost, the confidence building being one of the single most important transferable skills that can be offered a person.

We find, as well, that, in addition to those initial characteristics that need to be worked upon to ensure success in the marketplace, confidence, self-esteem, et cetera, there is also a career development program, personalized employment training. There is a return-to-work program which works on interpersonal relationships, ability to communicate effectively, assertiveness, et cetera. Many of the skills that are picked up in the health care, home care aides certificate training in terms of interpersonal relationships are very important.

We also, back at the very rudimentary level, know that we have to work with some clients, and we do in the very basic acquisition of habits. Just being at work on time is something that for some people is a skill that has to be understood and acquired. I say that is very rudimentary, but in some places that is also needed.

There is also a retail work experience, and that is a transferable skill, I think, that can be applied almost everywhere. In reading students' skills portfolios, they would often indicate that they had not had any understanding of how beneficial their time working at McDonald's had been or at Reitman's clothing store or at some of the other retail trades in terms of teaching them good customer relations, promptness, teamwork, et cetera.

Now, I know I have heard the opposition call jobs at McDonalds as McJobs, but, still and all, I think a lot of employers will tell you, give me a kid who has been trained at McDonald's, give me a kid who has been raised on the farm, and I will tell you I will have a worker who understands what responsibility is, who is able to follow instructions, who is able to work as part of a team, who understands basic courtesy and has a work ethic and understands the mission statement and the prime motivation for the day's work. Those, I think, are extremely important.

So those are some of the transferable skills. There are others, of course, because many of the personalized employment training programs will involve other skills that are not as evident as retail work experience or customer service or a marketing agent certificate training program, which is one that is offered. It is very specific and very general.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I am delighted to hear the minister say that Workforce 2000 taught transferable skills, and I am quite prepared to believe her, but I think there are many people who would not because Workforce 2000 and the minister are not prepared to tell us what was learned in those programs. The minister is not prepared to table the curriculum or the outcomes of any of the Workforce 2000 programs, and so I think it is a good idea and it would be interesting to know exactly what transferable skills were developed in the grants to the various car companies and to Northern Blower and to Safeway and to a variety of other companies and individuals who indeed may well have developed very good training programs.

Much of what the minister has talked about in Taking Charge! I think is what people would call job preparation, and while that is very necessary for some people, what I was really asking for was I think perhaps contained in customer service, marketing, health care and health aide certificates, and I wondered if I got from what the minister was saying that those are essentially, we might call them three different areas perhaps, customer service, marketing and health care aide certificates.

Are there other areas of specific training programs where individuals acquire new skills which prepare them for a job?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, Taking Charge!, as the member knows, has just recently gotten underway. Those four specific training areas are already up. There are eight altogether, but there are more slated to be coming on as we go down.

Now, if you are wanting to know more than just Taking Charge!, Taking Charge! will be adding a whole series of other courses besides the eight that it has got up and running in the last quarter. It is relatively new, but it is not the only program we have got, of course.

If the member is interested, we have South Winnipeg Technical Centre, and that is offering training in a wide variety of course areas and electronics, graphic arts and design. I spent time with two students there a few months ago, spent a fair bit of time with a couple of students taking some of the technical courses there, talking to them. One of them already has a tentative job offer upon graduation. They are very specific, very detailed. We have 40 students there at South Winnipeg Technical Centre taking training courses in highly specialized training areas that are definitely transferable skills. Now, these are not necessarily single parents, but they are people who are not employed and needing training.

We have the Aboriginal Training & Employment Service, leadership and personal development training, basic computer skills, customer service training, job search skills and work experience placements leading to employment, and we have a couple of dozen people there. We are partnering in that with the Aboriginal Training & Employment Service and Ma Mawi Wi Chi Itata Centre and the Aboriginal Literacy Foundation.

The Youth Employment Service does direct marketing to employers. It is more or less a job search support. There is some training involved though in the resume writing and that type of thing, but not in the actual skills for employment.

The Educare Business Centre does again strong skills training. It does basic computer skills. It does GED preparation. It also will do job search support and marketing leading to employment, as well.

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We also have Macdonald Youth Services, which does basic academic skills building. It does personal development training, as well. It will also do work experience placements that lead to employment and will again assist in the development of job search skills.

We also have the Job Education Training for Youth, which is employment preparation skills and on-the-job training leading to employment.

We have about 186 people in these particular programs, but we also have in terms of skills training, placements, again, primarily for single-parent job access. We have a health care aide program, computerized bookkeeping, computer applications, cosmetology, educational assistance, computerized business applications, computerized office skills, computerized accounting, electronics and information technologies.

We have call centre, customer service and marketing. We have these kinds of programs available, and we also have the health care administration. We have forestry business training. We have a drivers program. We have an aboriginal youth entrepreneurial program. We have a log builders program that we have put in place with the aboriginal students in the North. We have a security guards training program. We have a Dene pilots program. We have a recreation leaders program. We have, I think I said, teaching assistants and log building technicians. These are available for people for specific training, and I believe most of them would have the types of transferable skills that the member is looking for.

Now, you may argue the log building is a transferable skill but only in the construction trades or in the furniture-making or cabinet-making trades, and that is true, but, similarly, the computer training is transferable only if you are working in a job that uses computers.

So the log builders training program will not, obviously, train someone to be a computer technician or vice versa, but still the skills that are learned in the forestry business training, in the health care aide program, in the pilot program, in the teaching assistant program and so on, all have ability to be transferred or have components of them that are transferable into other settings. My experience as a classroom teacher, for example, gave me the confidence to speak in front of a group, for example. We had Access program training of this type for approximately 882 students currently.

So those are the numbers, and those are the types of courses available.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I want to compare some numbers. For example, last year in Estimates the Taking Charge! program expected to assist 1,225 sole-support parents, and on that line was also included Youth Works estimated at 850 youths.

Now, what I want to know from the minister is, did that, in fact, take place? How many people were assisted under Taking Charge! last year and at what approximate cost to this department? I realize that some of them are shared programs.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, this project, as you know, is shared three ways. The Department of Family Services and the Department of Education have been working on this, along with the federal government, and the program had a slow start. We had some problems with the federal government in terms of our partnership there, which, I think, the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) has been able to resolve, hence the late start-up.

I think now that we have a new federal minister in Mr. Young that we will find things will be a little more active now for Taking Charge!. Both Mrs. Mitchelson and I have met with Mr. Young, and we are pleased in that I think we are going to see the federal government working better with the province now that we have a new federal minister.

Anyhow, it did get off to a slow start largely because of those interjurisdictional difficulties. We are projecting for this year 1,100, and we are on target with that expectation. Last year, out of the 1,225 we thought we would have on the presumption that the program was going to be up and running, we actually only had 225, a source of some frustration to us because we were keen, set and ready to go, but as I say, they changed ministers. We no longer have Mr. Axworthy, we have Mr. Young, and suddenly things are humming along, and we do have the board. The board had been appointed, but I think it will now be able to begin really showing its stuff.

Ms. Friesen: I am wondering then what happened to this department's portion of the money for that program. That is a general question, and maybe a subquestion from that is, did the department pay for the board, because I think the board has been there for a year and has been meeting.

Was there a portion of that which was paid by the department, and of the 225 students that the minister says were in this program, how many of them graduated or completed the program that they were in? Are those 225 essentially being carried over to this year, or is there a 225 completion rate for '95-96?

Mrs. McIntosh: The money simply lapses in a situation like that where it is not spent as anticipated. If it is targeted for something and something does not occur, the money lapses.

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Ms. Friesen: Well, where does it lapse to? Does it stay within the department? What was that money used for? Does it go back to Treasury Board, and can the minister identify how much that money was?

Mrs. McIntosh: It was money that was allocated to us that we could have accessed to spend, and we met the cash needs of the people who were there, but we did not have to access any further of it because the program was late starting, so it just never got called upon for spending.

Ms. Friesen: I would like to ask the minister how much was spent last year by this department on Taking Charge!, and the further question that I asked last time was about the 225 students who were in the program. Did they complete programs? Are they carried over into this year? Are we double-counting some of them, and what areas did they complete programs in?

Mrs. McIntosh: The total cost of setting up everything was $614,000. That was charged to the Department of Education. That included all start-up expenses and initial programming, et cetera, plus the 225 students that accessed it last year. Of course, now all the start-up has been done, so there will be some expenses in that money that has been identified here that will not be repeat expenses.

Ms. Friesen: The 225 students that the minister said were in this program last year, I am still trying to find out, did they complete programs? Are some of them carried over into this year? Which programs did they complete, and what kind of employment patterns followed from that?

Mrs. McIntosh: The Taking Charge! board is a private board, not a government department, so we do not have the ongoing daily contact that you would, say, with department personnel. They will be providing a report. We do not yet have their first annual performance report.

They will be able to indicate the employment rate of the people who graduated from their programs and that should be in their report when it comes. That will be an annual performance report presented to the government. The Taking Charge! board is an independent privately run, so to speak, board of 10 directors, and as I say, we do not yet have that information although we will be receiving it.

Ms. Friesen: Well, how does the minister know that there were 225 students in that program last year?

Mrs. McIntosh: That information was provided to the government by the Taking Charge! board. They will provide information from time to time on items of interest, or if we are specifically wanting to know pieces of information that will flow back and forth.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, there is a considerable amount of money going to this private board. Could the minister tell me what kind of audit procedures, and I do not mean just in financial terms, I mean in the public sense of program audits that we are talking about now?

If this department provided $614,000 last year to this program and still does not know how many people graduated and in what programs, I think I would be very concerned. Can the minister tell me why there are not quarterly reports required, why this basic information is not available today, for example?

Mrs. McIntosh: As I indicated to the member earlier, this particular board has got three entities involved, actually four, I suppose: The federal government; the government of Manitoba, the government of Manitoba being the Department of Family Services, Department of Education; the board itself which are the private citizens, the 10 directors who run the board.

The lead minister for this particular board is the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), and it is the Minister of Family Services who has been working to ensure that, for example, the slow start-up with the federal government was addressed and resolved. That was largely due to the efforts of the Minister of Family Services for the Province of Manitoba. It is the Minister of Family Services who has the concern and responsibility directly for those people who are unemployed and on welfare, and, I think, you may find that when Family Services comes to the table, that the Minister of Family Services will be much better to provide you the detail on that than the Minister of Education.

What we make available for the Taking Charge! board are the finances required and the actual training delivery mechanisms where they are needed, but a lot of the training is done outside of the Department of Education. I understand the Taking Charge! board has been working with the Mennonite Central Committee, things of that nature, so I do not have a lot of the detail that the member might like me to have, because I have not been active as the lead minister on this particular project.

This was a project of Making Welfare Work, where the Department of Family Services and its minister have set in process to take people who are on welfare and lead them into productive employment and independent lifestyle. The Department of Education and Training stands by as an assist to this to provide money where needed to help and to provide training where needed to help.

So I will be getting the official reports, the annual report, those kinds of things, but on a day-to-day involvement. You really need to be talking to the minister who is the lead minister and has the more in-depth knowledge of the needs of these welfare recipients who are seeking to become independent.

Ms. Friesen: I certainly appreciate the advice of going to Family Services to ask for detailed information, and I will be doing that. However, the minister did say that her responsibility in this area was training delivery mechanisms.

The minister did say that 225 people were trained last year, so let us see if we can put those two together. Could the Minister of Education tell us what training delivery mechanisms were provided for those 225 people?

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Mrs. McIntosh: The Department of Education and Training will provide any training mechanisms required or asked for by Taking Charge!. The Taking Charge! board, however, is a community board and is looking to reaching out to the community to find channels for training and for learning and for the road to self-sufficiency not exclusively and solely delivered by government. These 225 people, I am led to understand, were trained outside of the government and not by departmental staff. Funding was provided from our department; funding was also provided from the federal government for this particular project. We will be receiving the graduating figures and the employment records or the employment success of those people in their annual report when it comes.

There was a graduation of Taking Charge! people from the customer service and marketing agent training program, which just took place a matter of weeks ago and another health care, home care training program, which will have a graduation this month. We are looking at a total of about 500 social assistance clients who have registered with Taking Charge! who are awaiting programming or who may have just gone into programming. So those two graduation programs have just taken place or are taking place, and given the late start of the program, they are amongst the first graduates to complete training.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I think I saw the notice of invitation to that graduation, and I cannot remember offhand whether it was 11 graduates or 18 graduates, but it seemed to me a considerable distance from 225. Now were there other graduations that I missed? Could the minister tell us how many--for example, the second one that she suggested, the health care aide--people will be graduating from that?

Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, absolutely, there will be more graduates. As I indicated, these are amongst the first of the programs. The Taking Charge! board has only been really underway for a matter of months, and a program does not always get done in a day. In fact, very few of them get done in a day. I indicated these would be amongst the first graduates to finish and that more would becoming.

There were only about 50 people altogether in the ones that I just named here, but in the others, if you totalled up, we have about 190, I think, that will be due to graduate within this next 12-year span, others who--[interjection] Pardon? Twelve-month, I am sorry. Yes, not 12 years. Sometimes it seems like it might be years to the students, I am sure, but it is 12 months. Those are ones who are in programs now. They are already in and working. I do not know how many will be added to that. As I say, Taking Charge! is adding programs as it goes, so there will, undoubtedly, be others added to that number within the next 12 months.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, if there are 190 who are currently in programs and if the minister says there were 50 in the two, one that has graduated and the one that is close to graduation, then we are about up to the 240 or 225 that she said earlier, and there are 500 in process or awaiting registration.

Does that account for the 225 that the minister was talking about, or are there some more in the system here?

My other question was the minister said that funding was provided to outside trainers, not that the training is not done by government. I assume it is done by a variety of other agencies. She mentioned a community, St. Andrew's, I think it was, that does some of the training.

But how is this funded? Does the cheque go directly to those community agencies who are doing the training, or does it go to this private board?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, Canada and Manitoba both provide their funding directly to the board, and then the board distributes it to the various training components.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, if that is the case, then why cannot the minister provide me with the information on what training has taken place? Perhaps we could start with, to whom has the minister provided cheques for training over the past year to the Taking Charge! board?

Mrs. McIntosh: I thought I had just said that Canada and Manitoba both provide their funding directly to the board and then the board distributes it to the training components. I believe that is what I said, and I believe that answers her question, because we do not give--I do not write a cheque to the training components. We give a cheque from the government to the board and then they do that.

Ms. Friesen: Let me phrase it then a better way. How much has gone to the board for training projects?

Mrs. McIntosh: I believe I have already indicated a couple of times that it was $614,000. If I did not, that is the amount.

Ms. Friesen: I understood that $614,000 was for start-up costs and was for a variety of costs, but it was not specifically the training programs.

Mrs. McIntosh: I believe if the member checks Hansard, she will see that I said, that is what we give to them and included in that money were the monies that they used for their start-up expenses. That was not start-up money; that was their money for this year. Out of that money they had to use some of it for their start-up costs.

Ms. Friesen: So essentially the minister gives a block grant to Taking Charge!, and the minister will have no idea until that annual report is tabled on what training has been provided and who was provided the training and what the graduation rates have been.

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Mrs. McIntosh: As I indicated, Family Services is the lead ministry on this and we do ask for and receive a proposed budget. We have a business plan. We have a management committee. That management committee is in government, and it approves and it flows funding, so it is not just handed over with no understanding of what it might be used for.

As I said, it has gotten off to a slow start, through no fault of the province, I might add. The province has been sitting there ready and willing to go and waiting. Nonetheless, it did get off to a slow start so that all of the people who were involved this year were not involved as early as we would have liked, but they did finally get off to their start.

They have their staff all hired. They are ready to become fully operational. They submit a plan to government. There is a management committee in government that approves the plan and the proposed budget and then the money is flowed as a block grant.

The report is filed with government indicating progress, goals met, expectations for the coming year, et cetera. In the meantime, as I indicated, the Department of Education and Training, in addition to being a funder, stands prepared and is able to assist with identifying the types of skills that we would like to see, the types of needs that we are aware of in the marketplace. The Department of Family Services identifies those people who require skills and anything that they need to get ready for an independent lifestyle in the marketplace.

(Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

I believe I indicated the types of people that are working with Taking Charge! in terms of organizations. We have the Immigrant and Refugee Community Organization of Manitoba; we have the Andrews Street Family Centre; we have Alicia Rae counselling; we have the Mennonite Central Committee which is taking on a very major role with the board. They have hired 17 staff people. There was a cost to that but the staff needed to be put in place before the group could be up and running. The staff people include Rosa Walker, who is the director, an executive assistant, secretarial and clerical staff, a program development director was originally seconded from the federal government, some child care workers and seven employment facilitators. I have to indicate that several of those people whom they have hired are themselves single parents.

The evaluation that we will do when the report comes will be based on outcomes. The pilot will be evaluated year by year. Regarding that 225 number that was referenced, that is the estimate produced by the department in November and December of this year. It is reflected in the Estimates Supplement figures. It has not been audited yet so I cannot state with certainty that the numbers will not be slightly different when we receive their final report. So if you want the absolute accurate numbers, you will need to wait till that final report is ready, then we can give you the actuals rather than the estimates. But we do anticipate a vast increase from 225 to 1,100 this year, and that primarily is due to the slow start.

Ms. Friesen: Since we have approximately, was it 11 or 18 graduates from last year, another 40-odd to come immediately or soon and 190 in process, are those numbers being counted into next year's numbers or this coming Estimates year numbers? That is one of the areas that I am concerned about if we are going to evaluate some of the impact of this program.

Secondly, I wonder if the minister could also tell me, how long was the training program from which there has already been graduation? I think that was the marketing program, and how long is the program for the health care aides?

Mrs. McIntosh: I just indicate for the member's information that we will not be double-counting as she is worried could occur. The courses for the customer services and market agent training program were from November '95 to March '96. The health care home care aide was from November '95 to May '96.

Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask about the community-based employability projects. I noticed that last year the government had anticipated training 150 people. This year, they are looking at training 135. Were there actually 150 people trained last year? Does the lower number reflect that?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, in 1995-96, we projected 150. We ended up, in terms of the actual, with 231. In '96-97, we are projecting 135, and, of course, we do not know the actual yet. We were over our projections last year, but projections are just that. You can be over or under a bit, and the 135 we are projecting is not far off what we were projecting with the 150.

I indicate that we have moved the youth programming out of this line. The youth programming is now being done in a different area. So our projections now no longer include the youth, which is being done elsewhere, at least under the employability projects. As well, of course, we have lost again substantial federal money from this area.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, if the uptake was 235 last time, why did the government estimate a lower participation rate this time?

I also want to ask some questions on the garment industry, as well.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, I believe I did say that the youth had been taken out of this now. We do provide training for a fairly large number of young people, and we had a lot included in this line before. They are now being dealt with through other of our employability programs. So this now is minus their number, these projections.

Ms. Friesen: Is there a separate line for youth disability?

Mrs. McIntosh: We do not call it youth disability. We have a program for youth, and it is called Youth NOW. New Opportunities for Work is what the NOW stands for.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, is there a requirement or a component of that program which is specifically allocated to youth with disabilities? The program that we are currently looking at is a program which assists disabled social assistance recipients, and the minister is arguing that there is a lower number here because a youth line has been taken out of it. So I am just trying to follow that to see whether, in fact, disabled youth on social assistance are specifically accommodated in the new program.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, there never has been a youth disabled program, but the youth are eligible to apply under either, well, the old way, either under the line we are discussing here, or under other youth programs. So they were not categorized as disabled youth but rather as unemployed youth. CBEP was not just for disabled people.

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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, it does say in the Estimates book, and I am looking at page 102, Community-Based Employability Projects: “Assists disabled social assistance recipients in securing training and stable employment opportunities . . . .”

That is the program I am looking at. The minister said it is less this year because Youth has been moved to another line. My concern is, is the commitment to disabled social assistance recipients continuing in that Youth line? I am not sure of the response that I am getting here.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Mrs. McIntosh: The Community-Based used to be for unemployed and for disabled, and the majority of people utilizing it fell into the disabled category, but it was not exclusively for that particular category of individual. This year, with the removal of the others, it now is just for disabled.

So it used to be for both. The employable youth have been going under Youth NOW and other programs, and what is left then is the one component that used to be just simply a component. It is now the sole component of this line.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, in last year's Estimates under this same activity it says: “Gives priority consideration to projects which address the personal and employability needs of the physically, mentally or emotionally disabled, or youth between the ages of 18 and 24.”

Could the minister tell me how many of last year's recipients fell into that category?

Mrs. McIntosh: Forty-nine percent were youth, and, if you would like the complete breakdown, 49 percent were youth, 18 percent were single parent, 26 percent were aboriginal, 42 percent were disabled, and 3 percent were visible minorities.

People would represent themselves in different categories. They could have been all of those at once, so they would designate themselves according to how they wished to be labelled.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us what the cost to Manitoba has been in the delayed start-up of Taking Charge!?

Mrs. McIntosh: It is hard to say. If they had started up when we wanted them to start up and had been able to get busy going on their programs sooner, and we had more people completing training and then becoming employed and then paying taxes because they were employed, we would have a strengthened economy. It is hard to pull out the exact cost of a late start, but it was a frustration to us to be not up as early, because we know that--I do not have those figures extrapolated here, but a delay of this nature is more than frustrating, it is costly.

On the upside, because every cloud has a silver lining, it did give the board a chance to make sure that they did get the staff people they wanted and that they were all given the development skills they needed and lots of time to get ready and prepare themselves. So on that side, it has been good.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, the Taking Charge! program says that it is going to focus on strategic economic sectors, sales and marketing and health care may be part of one, but there are a number of other strategic economic sectors, and an obvious one where there are labour market issues is the garment industry.

The minister said there were eight new programs coming on in Taking Charge!. Could she indicate for me what those eight programs are and how they address Manitoba’s strategic economic sectors?

Mrs. McIntosh: We do not have their plan or proposal on that particular initiative, but we do understand that there is interest and negotiations going on regarding the garment industry.

Ms. Friesen: How much of this line that we are looking at are we being asked to approve for Taking Charge! because we really have very little information? We have no annual report. We have no either program audit or financial audit from the past year. We have got a federal-provincial program. I do not believe that it is included in the other lead department on this basis, and Education has a proportion of money that it is putting into it. We do not know what the eight new programs are.

There may be quite understandable reasons, not reasons that we particularly rejoice in, but certainly ones that are understandable for the late start-up, but we are being asked to approve an amount of money for something about which we know very little and which we will not know much about, it seems to me, for a considerable time. Does the minister have a date for when that annual report will be ready, for example?

Mrs. McIntosh: I believe it is something that I said earlier and I would say again, that the sort of daily contact, well, it is not daily contact but the ongoing contact, the regular contact for Taking Charge!, because it is a program that deals with helping single moms get off welfare, is being done through the Department of Family Services. I believe I did say several times that the minister who would have the most regular working contact would be the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) who is promoting the initiative.

Education and Training is very pleased to be able to provide funding to help get single moms off welfare and into the workforce because we see that provisions for training--whether they be done through the government or through the private sector or through charitable organizations or through businesses or through whomever--will provide ability for young women or middle-aged women, but most of them are young, with families to get off welfare and into the workforce is something that we support wholeheartedly.

The business plan is under development, and Taking Charge! will receive an advance to continue business until the business plan is approved. That is something that I feel is extremely worthwhile. I have been impressed. I have met Rosa Walker who is the executive director of Taking Charge!, a very capable individual. I know that the people who have been participating with us in terms of this whole thrust are very pleased to see that it is finally up and underway.

Again, with any new initiative, with any new thrust, it does take a few months for a pattern to show itself. We believe in the last three or four months we have seen some good progress. As I indicated, they already have had, even in this short time, two groups graduate. In fact, I think there are three, because there is another with the Alicia Rae counselling that I think was completed at the beginning of this month, as well, for graduation, so we see others coming up for graduation later in July and later in the summer.

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That business plan being under development, soon to be presented to government, will probably have some of the details the member would have wished to see appear here in Estimates, but they are not ready yet, so they cannot be here in Estimates today.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us what portion of 16.4(g) is applicable to Taking Charge!?

Mrs. McIntosh: The member is asking for, under 16.4(g), the amount out of our total that is directed to Taking Charge!. Is that the question? The amount for Taking Charge! is $2,300,000 for the year to come, which will be the first full year of activity.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister give me some more detail on that? I assume there are no staff here who are involved in that. This is in Other Expenditures. How is it divided in this line?

Mrs. McIntosh: This is grant money; it is not used for us to hire staff. I think I indicated before that money would flow from government to the board, and the board then would pay the trainers, et cetera. It is much the same way that we might give a grant to a library. We would not say, this is to buy so many books here and here, and this would be to run your library.

We want accountability for it. We want to see, and will see, the evaluations, et cetera, and we do have a management committee. As I indicate, the management committee is through the Department of Family Services, and they will have the detail on the ongoing regular activity that I lack and cannot provide for the member.

I can tell you the dollar amounts, the thrust and the support that Education and Training provides and the fact that we do stand by if the board needs to call upon us for our services.

Ms. Friesen: It is the accountability that I am interested in here. The department has already provided $614,000 to this project and yet is unable to tell us very much about the training or who did the training that has already been done. The department is now asking us to pass an Estimate line of $2 million, and yet this minister and I understood the minister to say the government itself have not seen the business plan, that the business plan is not yet complete.

Could the minister tell us when that business plan will be complete, and is the transfer of $2 million contingent upon the acceptability of that business plan?

Mrs. McIntosh: I believe I did read into the microphone the types of training and indication of people doing training, such as Andrews Street Family Centre, McKnight And Associates, the Immigrant and Refugee Community Organization of Manitoba, Alicia Rae counselling, Resources for Women, Mennonite Central Committee. I thought I had done that.

In terms of the budget, which is her real main question, apparently there is a budget currently under revision with Taking Charge! board of directors. They have done a first draft and are doing a revision that will be coming to government shortly. Unfortunately, it has not arrived prior to the Estimates process, but it is in the making, so to speak, and should be arriving shortly. The Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), as I have said, will have more details since she is the lead minister.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, what date does the minister anticipate receiving the annual report of the board?

Mrs. McIntosh: I do not have an exact date for that. I know that it is in the process of being revised. I know that they have had the original draft done and that a second draft is being done. I know that Education and Training and Family Services staff are working with the Taking Charge! board on their business plan.

I indicate to the member what I thought I had indicated in the beginning, but I will maybe re-emphasize it because I think it is something that is important when we are dealing with this.

The Taking Charge! board was set up with Canada as a partner, and it was structured in order to set up an arm's-length relationship, so that they would be able to pursue innovative programs for single parents without being encumbered by politicians and bureaucrats interfering with their work.

It was structured consciously to be that way to the point that even in their board of directors, when they were choosing them, had a very lengthy discussion and debate as to whether or not there should be government bureaucrats on this community board, a community board with partnership between the federal and provincial governments, sponsored by the provincial and federal governments through funding and through other supports that we can provide them for the community to work, with government support, to help bring people back to a positive and independent lifestyle.

Part of the philosophy and thinking behind all of this, because there was a philosophical bent to it, was that back in the olden days, as people used to refer to them, there was a community of care. People cared for each other. People helped each other. It was felt that there were groups and out there who could recapture that and help in a variety of ways to create supports for single mothers that would be like, indeed part of, a caring community and, hence, you will see the Mennonite Central Committee being so involved. They are involved for that reason.

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So this is not a board that would be one that was structured to serve as a branch of a government department. We will expect accountability as we would from any other arm's-length boards or any arm's-length organizations, and you can think of many in a wide variety of venues where independent boards are set up, appointed by government, shared costs through sometimes two, sometimes three levels of government, North Portage board, The Forks board, set up by triparite government to make independent decisions, funded by the governments, and the decisions made are independent, free from government interference.

They are accountable. They put in an annual report, and they put in an annual budget and an annual plan, but in the day-to-day ongoing operations--with The Forks board when I was Minister of Urban Affairs, keen interest, great following, great relationship, but I did not go to the board meetings and tell them how to make decisions.

This Taking Charge! board will be accountable, fully accountable as are those not exactly the same but similar-type boards I made reference to just now, and it would have been most inappropriate to hold back funds in April, waiting for an audit for March 31, but we can expect their audit will be in, I understand, before the funds would flow, and the funds are not slated to flow until late July or August, sometime in the summer, so their audit will be in before the funds flow.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, both The Forks board and the North Portage board report annually to the Legislature. Does the minister expect that this board will be reporting to the Legislature in committee, in the same manner?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, no, I expect they will be reporting to the minister, not to the Legislature. I say similar in their independence, in their community base. Their reporting mechanism will still be to government, but they will be reporting to the ministry, not to the Assembly unless the minister feels that is not being accountable. I feel it is.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, since they will be reporting to the government, how will the government be reporting to the Legislature? Will they be tabling an annual report as they do for other arm's-length agencies?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, I cannot answer that at this time, but I can say that I know that we are expecting that that report would be something that we would be pleased and proud to talk to people about and to share with people, so I cannot see any reason why we would not be able to do that, but, as I say, I am not the lead minister.

I am the funding partner and I have staff who have helped with the establishment of these and are working with Taking Charge! and their business plan and so on, but the lead minister would make those decisions, and, I, as I have indicated before, am not the lead minister on this particular project.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 4.Training and Advanced Education (g) Employment Development Programs (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,411,400--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $971,000--pass; (3) Training Support $4,944,600--pass; (4) Making Welfare Work $3,835,300--pass.

Item 4.(h) Apprenticeship and Workforce 2000 (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,458,400.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, I forgot to introduce the staff who are here, and as she is leaving I would like to thank Mary Lou Kuxhouse for her being here today.

As well, I would introduce the other staff members who are with us at the table this afternoon. We have Mr. Tom Carson, deputy minister for advanced training. We have Bob Gorchynski, one of the directors. We have DianaYoudell, thank you, Diana, and we have Bob Knight, another director, and so I thank these three staff people, along with the deputy, for their presence here today.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, as the minister knows, I have been asking for freedom of information on a number of Workforce 2000 programs over the years. There is a considerable amount of money gone into these programs, including rebates on the health and education levy.

The minister's most recent communication on this was that the curriculum, that is, what is taught, what is learned, the outcome, what has been achieved is proprietary knowledge. I wonder if the minister could perhaps tell me why she believes that such amounts of public money should be, in fact, involved in proprietary training.

Mrs. McIntosh: I believe the answer was provided by the Ombudsman who indicated the nature of commercial information belonging to a third party, and I think, although the member is not in business that she might understand and appreciate the concept behind that.

When this was referred to the Ombudsman, the Ombudsman made some very, I think, pertinent comments indicating that information of this nature does contain commercial information and therefore would appear that an exemption under The Freedom of Information Act would be required and therefore is unable to recommend the release of this kind of document.

I think that is basically it in a nutshell, that that is commercial information belonging to a third party, and one of the things that we did indicate, particularly, I think the member might appreciate, is if you provide a payroll tax rebate, the payroll tax is paid according to the number of employees you have, et cetera. The payroll tax rebate and other information of that nature could lead people to be able then to deduct, through a variety of ways, financial information about a company's costs, operational costs, profitability, et cetera, that would be detrimental to that company.

Since we were in the process with Workforce 2000 of trying to assist companies by having them upgrade their staff in marketable skills, and many of them, as the member knows--although she is saying she could not get the curriculum, she did know, for example, using the one that she asked specifically about not long ago or that another member of her party asked about, the health care training, the home care training, provided to some We Care employees about a year and a half ago.

While we cannot give the curriculum, I think the member would know, or anybody with half a brain in their head would know, that home care or health care training would obviously be of such a nature that the skills would be transferable. Without knowing whether or not you were taught how to make a bed a certain way, one would have to ascertain that if you are taking training in home care, health care, that those would be transferable skills.

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If you are taking training to operate a cash register in a golf club, which I think was one that a couple of years ago the member was making quite a bit of noise about, as I recall, then it would have to also fall to reason that even without a curriculum one could ascertain that knowing how to operate a cash register at a golf course would probably mean that you could also operate a cash register in a grocery store or a retail store or any other place that a cash register is used. So I think you do not need a curriculum--well, maybe the member does, but most people do not need a curriculum to figure that out.

So the exact curriculum, et cetera, what they are training them for, and the jobs they are expecting to fill within their company, is considered commercial information belonging to a third party that government cannot release. The Ombudsman has ruled upon that. The member's party wrote the act that I am obeying, and I would think that she would be quite happy with that explanation and say, well done.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, well, putting aside the unnecessary additions in that particular response, there were three categories of training that are identified in Workforce 2000--basic education or basic literacy, human resources or human resource training, and technical. I am particularly concerned that areas such as human resource training and technical are not easy to understand from a distance in a particular industry. For example, what is the technical training that is available at Northern Blower? What is the human resource training that is available at Kentucky Fried Chicken and at Safeway?

How can we know without the curriculum whether, in fact, these are areas for which people may have already been trained or may have in the past been trained by a particular company in the normal course of events? Is this, in fact, extraordinary training? Is it something which is of particular strategic advantage to the company at this time?

Mrs. McIntosh: The way in which the plan works worked because we are not talking about this year's Estimates, we are talking about last year's Freedom of Information request, but I am happy to go off Estimates to do it if that is the way she wishes to spend Estimates time. This is for the record though, not this year's Estimates that we are discussing right now. We are talking about last year's FOI requests. I would indicate that the way in which the process worked, and I know the member has had this explained to her, companies would submit their training plans, the department had criteria against which those training plans were approved. Those training plans are on file in the Department of Education. I guess the member's concern is that because she has not seen those training plans, she does not trust that the department has made good judgment on them.

The member is saying that even though the Ombudsman has specifically said, in the Northern Blower case, that we cannot release this information, even though The Freedom of Information Act specifically says that we cannot release it and the Ombudsman has ruled that our interpretation is correct and even though I am saying that my staff has approved the training plans and they are on file and they fit the criteria, what the member is saying is that my staff cannot be trusted, that Mr. Knight sitting here cannot be trusted when he says the plans have been approved and they fit the criteria, because she says, how can I possibly know that this money was properly spent when I have not seen the plans? In that question she is saying, how can I possibly trust Bob Knight when I have not seen the plans that he approved?

I actually rather resent that. These are civil servants following job descriptions, obeying the rules. If the member wants to put that implication about the civil service on the record, I can indicate that as the minister I have every faith that Bob Knight and the people that work with him are accurate when they examine those criteria, examine training plans and give approval. I am very sorry that the act that her party wrote prevents her from getting the information she wants, but I am not sorry that the act that she wrote protects the companies who have commercial information belonging to them, that they are forced to reveal to government to meet our criteria but that are kept confidential.

There are some things in government that are confidential. The member has never been in government; she has always been in opposition. She has been highly critical of this program. She said earlier that my comments were unnecessary. I submit, with the harassment that this government has received over Workforce 2000 from that member, that my comments were necessary.

This member has put my staff to hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of work, unbelievable work, gathering data for her, going through Freedom of Information, even when she does not have to. These people are here to work for the people of Manitoba. They have duties that they need to perform. They spend a lot of their time doing research for the NDP caucus, and then they are criticized for not having their work done on time because they are busy working for the NDP caucus.

I think my comments were not unnecessary. If you go back and punch Workforce 2000, Jean Friesen, and see all that comes up in Hansard, you will know my comments were necessary.

Third-party confidentiality--[interjection] The member for--maybe you would like to put your comments on the record? Would you like your comments to go on the record?

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I would ask all honourable members sitting at this committee table to put their comments through the Chair. Conversations cannot be carried on at this point. The honourable minister, to finish her remarks.

Mrs. McIntosh: The sharing of individual company training plans and outcomes is restricted by the program for the following reasons. Third-party confidentiality: Customized training plans, curricula objectives and outcomes are developed in partnership with industry and businesses to address identified business needs and to increase the company's competitiveness and profitability. [interjection]

I hope I do not lose my time while I sit and pause for them to finish their conversation, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

The public sharing of the needs, training plans, and outcomes could seriously impact an individual business's advantage and competitiveness. [interjection]

Perhaps the member did not hear that when she was busy talking to her neighbour, and she can read it in Hansard.

Potential for commercialization of customized training plan development in a market-driven environment: Customized training plans and materials have the potential for commercialization. Intellectual ownership of property can be an issue, as well, in addition to the impact on individual business competitiveness. Sharing of full curricula by public institutions is not common in practice because of the potential for commercialization that could impact on credibility and advantage.

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Workforce 2000, when it had this program, was accountable for the development and implementation of the training. It supports all training activity, and outcome expectations are developed with industry associations and other partners through steering committees, advisory committees, in a collaborative process to ensure that industry needs are met and identified and appropriately met. This highly participatory approach to development and the application of outcome expectations to all program activity is not true in all educational experience, university and other post-secondary programs. The business community needs return on investment in training.

Workforce 2000 has in place monitoring and evaluation mechanisms for the program components. Evaluation outcomes, undertaken to date, have been extremely positive. As the knowledge and feedback from training outcomes increases, Workforce 2000 monitoring and evaluation systems are refined. I have to indicate something that the member, I believe, has been told before and that is that 30 percent of the training for Workforce 2000 has been delivered by public institutions and 20 percent in vocational schools. So 50 percent has been delivered in public institutions, who, I think, by and large, I have been led to indicate by users, are deemed to be credible and deemed to be very good.

This program is now complete. We are now concentrating on the industry sector-wide training. We believe for two reasons that it was time to complete the program that is under discussion here--last year's work, not this year's Estimates--that we needed to redirect our money because we get these great big cuts for post-secondary education and training from Ottawa, and we felt that we had already put a fair degree of money into Workforce 2000 for the individual businesses to enable the workforce to be upgraded fairly substantially, and also to inspire in the business community an attitude toward workforce training that we believe will now perpetuate itself, and hence the redirection of funding and the refocusing of direction.

You will see that as we go on and we beef up one area, we will move on then to other areas and keep our targeted--we are to keep our money and our focus moving in the area of training. You will not see us saying, this is a program we had 10 years ago, and because we had it 10 years ago, we will have it today and we will have it 10 years from now.

(Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

I know that is what the opposition is stuck on. We hear it every day of the week, every week of the month, every month of the year--do not change anything; live by yesterday's standards. It is the rallying cry of the NDP. Yesterday was good; make today like yesterday; make tomorrow like yesterday.

We are preparing for a new millennium. We are not afraid of change, not change for the sake of change, but not afraid of change when it is needed. The member never liked Workforce 2000. I would expect she would be glad that it is finished.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I am interested that the minister's view of parliamentary procedure and purpose is that accountability in the asking of questions by the opposition amounts to harassment. It is not the first time that she has said that, but it is interesting that questions on Workforce 2000 provoke that kind of response.

The minister had two points in there that I want to pursue. One is that she is convinced that this program will perpetuate itself, that it has been enough to encourage businesses in Manitoba to continue workplace-based training, and I wonder if she could give me some evidence of that and how she plans to monitor that. Secondly, the minister also talked about the criteria which her staff used to evaluate the proposals submitted by businesses, and I wonder if she could table that list of criteria.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, we will table that information for the member. I think it may be information she already has, but we will be pleased to table it in any event.

The reason that I have confidence and, you know, there is a funny little thing with words, and I mentioned it in the House today when I think I said twisting words. I said, I am confident that, and the member came back and said, the minister said she is absolutely certain that. Well, I am confident that is one phrase, and I am absolutely certain that is a different phrase, and while they both imply a positive expectation, saying, I am confident, and saying, I am absolutely certain, I do not believe grammatically are synonymous.

I say that as an example, and I think maybe I will start pointing them out every time she does it, which is about every time she speaks, when the member will twist, take what is said and just give it another little twist so it means something just a tiny little bit different than what was actually said and then turns to us and says, be accurate.

I mean, really--anyhow, enough. We live and we endure with what we are given, and I am given a critic of this calibre and she is given a minister of this calibre, and we think we have a mutual admiration for each other. It is very similar I think.

The reason that I am confident, which the member thinks means absolutely certain, and maybe I am absolutely certain, but the word I used was confident, that the private sector will indeed be inspired to continue its workforce training is based upon the experience that we have had. We have seen, for example, that of the $30 million spent, that $55 million was levered in the private sector, that the private sector, on the basis of that $30 million, spent $55 million in training and upgrading its workforce. I think that is a fairly strong signal.

If the member has any more questions about last year's work, I would be pleased to answer it, and then if she wants to ask anything about this year's Estimates, I have all the time in the world.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, it is the minister's personal comments that remain on the record and that is her choice. I think what we are trying to deal with here are issues of principle rather than issues of last year's Estimates. The example I used was from last year, but the issue was one of principle, and I think the minister can recognize that. I am glad to see that she will be tabling the criteria, and I look forward to receiving that.

The $55 million that was levered from the private sector for training, how does the minister plan to evaluate that? Will there be some monitoring? Does the minister have the means to monitor so that she can ensure that her confidence has, in fact, been well placed?

Mrs. McIntosh: Just as a follow-up, we have heard from a lot of businesses who say that they have every intention of carrying on, and this is encouraging. Not all have said they will be carrying on, but we have heard from some who specifically made a point of telling us that they will be carrying on. We know in this economy, a training culture is critical for success and that we have helped to be a partner in creating a training culture. While I know the opposition did not like our helping train in the workforce, I do believe it was a very good program and that we will see lasting benefits from it.

I know the member's party made a lot of talk about McJobs and caustic comments like that about workforce training because the jobs were not always highly paid professional jobs. I know that they have been critical, for example, that we have been encouraging people to go work in the garment industry because they are not good enough jobs. I know that at one point I called the member for Wolseley a job snob. I meant it in the way that there is no job that does not have dignity, that a job that provides a wage provides dignity and uplifts people. There is nothing wrong with the garment industry.

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The Premier's (Mr. Filmon) parents both worked in the garment industry all their lives. They were immigrants from another country. They went to work in the garment factory. His mother and his father both worked in the garment factory all their lives, and they somehow managed to raise a fine son, in my opinion. I know the opposition does not agree with that either. Maybe they think the reason they do not like Gary Filmon is because his parents worked in a garment factory and did not know how to raise a good son. Maybe that is why they do not like him, because his parents did not have the lofty jobs they think that all the people in the world are entitled to, but all of us have in our families people who have lofty jobs and people who have jobs that are jobs that you do with your hands and your body, and work has dignity.

It is when you have no reason to get up in the morning and no job to do that you lose your dignity. I believe workforce training is important. I believe encouraging people into emerging sectors, growth sectors, the garment factory being a growth sector, looking for jobs, permanent jobs, long-term jobs, maybe they do not have highfalutin titles, but they are real jobs, and they are good jobs. You can live on those jobs, and you can contribute to the economy and have self-worth and self-esteem. I guess I do not look upon them as lowly jobs.

I think people who get up in the morning and go to work have dignity, and I am sorry that the opposition does not share that opinion. I think helping people move from welfare to work, from living on social assistance on the public purse with all the shame and everything that goes with that, to be able to move from that to a real job that you actually get more money from, maybe not a lot of money, but a little more money from and all of the self-worth that goes with that is, I think, a really important move. But not all training was in McJobs. Many of the types of training that went on did, in fact, lead to high-paying jobs.

There was training going on at Red River Community College and certification training in steel product manufacturing, in project management, in swine technician Levels 1 and 2, and the member probably will not like that either, but Manitoba Pork will tell you that that is an area to be in if you want to make money, and we want to help these people make money.

Mechanical engineering technology, professional engineering option, statistical process control, geometric dimensioning, precision sheet metal, inspection mineralogy, linguistic assessment, detection of extraneous matter in food through the Manitoba Food Processors Association, very important work. Industry certification in energy retrofitting, doors and hardware, blueprint reading, survey and layout, petroleum install and removing, laboratory practices, food and beverage server--she probably would not like that one either--beverage server manager, front-desk agent--that is probably not a good one either--bartender--how lowly can you be--housekeeper room attendant.

I think these are good jobs. I do not think there is anything wrong with being a bartender or a housekeeper. I just do not think there is anything wrong with doing that. I think there can be a lot of dignity in that and in some cases, depending where you tend bar, a lot of money too. Sales representative, auto collision repair.

They cannot all be university professors and lawyers in this world. Maybe there is a lot more life satisfaction to be gained from not being a university professor or a lawyer. Maybe there is some very true pleasure that comes from going to work in the day and working with your hands and your body and coming home with your mind at rest because you have not had to drag your job home with you.

These things I have just listed are some of the things that we have been doing in Workforce 2000 supported training that are certified, and they have all of those options in there.

(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)

Ms. Friesen: Well, that was an interesting conversation the minister was having with herself about the dignity of labour and interspersed, I think, with some personal attacks and name calling, and I will certainly leave it at that.

I think my question dealt with how the minister was intending to monitor the continuance of workplace-based training by employers. She had mentioned in her previous response that her previous program had levered $55 million of training, and I was interested in how the minister would be monitoring this. I think her actual response was that she had some informal assurances from businessmen that they were very pleased with the program and that they intended to continue with it.

I wanted to ask the minister about the province-wide special courses. There are 12 of them listed here. Could she give us some details on the province-wide special courses and how they relate to the strategic directions of the government?

Mrs. McIntosh: I have to indicate that, no, we will not be monitoring the programs that we no longer provide. I think that is rather self-evident. We no longer have Workforce 2000 providing training for individual businesses. Therefore, when she asks, how will we be monitoring their programs, the answer is we will not be.

We are not providing the training anymore. They are providing the training on their own now, unless she wants us to start writing a lot of regulations for us to go into private businesses who are getting no money from us and monitoring the way they train their employees and tell them how they should do it. That would fit with the Socialist philosophy but does not fit with ours.

We figure, if we are not giving them money, then we should not tell them whether to train their employees that they should work standing up or sitting down. I think that is up to the employers. Unless she would like us to open up another branch of our bureaucracy and start to hire more staff so we can monitor the training plans of people to whom we do not give any government money, and that is a suggestion that I would probably expect from the Socialists, but I do not have it yet. If that is what she is wanting us to do, I really can say almost categorically that we do not intend to do that.

Point of Order

Ms. Friesen: Before the minister moves too far down this line, I think Statistics Canada does monitor the amount of workplace-based training and the amount of money that, even on international comparisons, employers are making to workplace training. My questions are directed at the minister to see if the minister is participating in any of those kinds of international surveys. On those international surveys, Canada has always ranked very low.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.

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Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister, to finish her remarks.

Mrs. McIntosh: I am sorry, I did not hear the member referring to the international scene or Statistics Canada. I will check Hansard to see if, in fact, she did say that in her question because I thought I was listening and I did not hear it. So I would apologize for not having heard--

Point of Order

Ms. Friesen: On a point of order, the minister is right. I did not say that in my question. I was simply explaining to the minister the implications and the level of the questioning that I was making before she went too far down the line--

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts.

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Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister, to finish her remarks.

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Mrs. McIntosh: In terms of the province-wide special courses, industry in partnership with governments is identifying training needs for which new and innovative models of delivery are being developed. Included within this area are three major components, train the trainer, workshop skills and quality-related training.

These areas are directed at the development of the essential skills needed by workers to function in today's workplace. These initiatives are offered in partnership with industry-serving associations such as the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce and the Manitoba Quality Network. Planned for delivery in 1996 and 1997 are export-related initiatives, quality-related workshops, with the primary focus on those which support ISO 9000, including statistical process improvement and quality unique in Canada. They will also include the small business consortium. The Technical Communication Institute of International Quality will take place, and that is only in Canada. There will be further offerings of the Train the Trainer workshop, with some innovations. Delivery of province-wide courses by distance will be expanded, and a project to determine requirements related to training and distance learning technology in four regions of Manitoba will be initiated.

In 1996-97, it is projected that the province-wide special courses will facilitate the delivery of 15 initiatives to train approximately 500 individuals for an estimated financial contribution of $100,000.

Ms. Friesen: One of the areas of industry-wide human resource planning focuses on information technology. Could the minister indicate what is being planned in information technology under this line in the coming year?

Mrs. McIntosh: I have to indicate that we have province-wide courses and new and innovative models of training directed at essential skills where training is not always readily available locally.

In terms of information telecommunications, on several fronts we had talked about call centres and the government's ability to market Manitoba as the natural call centre for North America because of our unique geographical location, two hours either way from coast to coast, our bilingual workforce and all of those things. So with that then we have a call centre committee with French language training. We have the development of a French language test instrument to assess the level of capability of call centre agents and recruits to deliver call centre services in French. We had participation in the development of an education infrastructure to support call centre training in Manitoba, development activities to establish a call centre training co-ordinating committee. We did that last year. That committee is now in place.

We are doing short-term training initiatives for members of the electronics industry. We had two courses delivered, the high reliability soldering part 1 and 2 and internal quality systems audit, to a total of 17 participants; the development and implementation of human resource training plan for the Electronics and Information Association for about 120 management and technical personnel; the completion of a feasibility study for an object-oriented technology training centre; the development of a model for the object-oriented technology training centre; the implementation of the ISTAP study recommendations; education and training strategies for Manitoba companies within the information technology and telecommunications service industries; and a training initiative to upgrade skills of software workers.

So, you know, those are some of the initiatives in telecommunications, most of them directed, in this example, towards call centres.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell us who sits on that advisory council for the call centres, and could she give us some further information on the training strategy? I think she mentioned it last but one. Skills of software workers was the last one, and an educational training strategy, I think, from an ISTAP document.

Mrs. McIntosh: May I just take the time to table some information that was requested by the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) yesterday. I said I would bring it back today and I have. I do not want to miss the opportunity to table it before the day is out. This is the labour mobility chapter of the agreement on internal trade that he was seeking. I have copies there in sufficient numbers. As well, I had been asked to table the Private Vocational Schools Administration program, which I also have here and will pass over to you.

Now to the question that was just asked. We do not have the names of individuals, but we do have the names of organizations who sit on the committee. If she requires the individual names, we would have to come back with them. In terms of the Information Services Technology Advisory Panel, ISTAP, we have the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce representative, we have the University of Manitoba, the University of Winnipeg, Great-West Life, LGM group, the Investors Syndicate, as well as other private companies and education deliverers.

That is the basic make-up of the committee, and, as I say, I do not have the names of the people and there are some other private companies and education deliverers, as well, but from memory we cannot get them.

If the member would like them, we could table them tomorrow for her information. She had also asked, in addition to who was on the committee--perhaps the member could refresh my memory because she had a second part to her question and it has just escaped me at the moment.

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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, to respond to the minister on the composition of the committee, it sounds as though the committee is composed of delegates, in a sense, representatives, of institutions. If that is the case--and I am not interested in the individuals, but I would be interested in the full composition of the committee, the other private companies and educational deliverers, if that could be tabled next time we meet.

The other part of the question dealt with the educational training strategy that this group had developed.

Mrs. McIntosh: Yes, we will get those other company names and provide them. The committee so far has now completed a report that identifies industries' training needs. That has been concluded, and they are now looking at developing a strategy to ensure that those training needs get met. That will be their next piece of work which has not begun yet because they have just concluded this first one.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell us whether that needs survey, which I guess it would be, is available publicly?

Mrs. McIntosh: I imagine that it would be. We would have to approach the committee to obtain it, but I have been given to understand there is no apparent reason that it would not be available. So it probably can be obtained from the committee.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I am also interested in the educational information strategy for call centres, and I think the minister had indicated that was a separate item in here. There were several things from call centres about French language training, test instruments, et cetera, but then there was an educational information strategy.

Now, I was not clear from the minister's comments whether that was this committee we were just discussing, the ISTAP, or whether that was a separate strategy relating specifically to call centres.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, Manitoba has a call centre team, it is led by Industry, Trade and Tourism, which does a number of things. One, it encourages call centres to locate in Manitoba, again using the theme that we are the natural centre of the continent and therefore a wonderful centre from which communications should rightly flow, and we all sort of work together.

They will identify where needs might be. For example, with the French language, we do the linguistic assessment through Education and Training to assess the levels of ability and to have training be available for those who are upgrading their language skills, so that they can be considered a bilingual call operator. We then have the training in languages, but also in co-operation with some of the industry, we work to provide advice and consultation on their skills training.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell us where the language training is done and who provides it? This is under the linguistic assessment and the French language provision. I understood the minister to say that the department did the assessment and then training followed from that. Could the minister tell us where that training occurs and who pays for it?

I am also interested in the labour force strategy on that and what information the minister has through other parts of her department on labour force analysis and projections as to what the numbers, locations, are in this part of the economy for Manitoba over the foreseeable future, I guess.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated, the various departments work together. Our department is involved solely in the training aspect. We do not go out and solicit the business, but once it comes here, we then kick in with the training component.

We are involved in developing an instrument to assess French language capability. The actual work is done through CUSB, St. Boniface College. The labour force figures that she is looking for we can obtain and table for her, but it is St. Boniface College, the university there, that does a lot of this work.

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Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, how much training for call centres is done elsewhere? Now, this is moving away from the French language issue into other training for call centres.

Can the minister tell us where it is done, what numbers have been trained in the past year, and what numbers the minister anticipates in the future? Could the minister comment upon the proposal for call centre training at Assiniboine Community College? Is that still a live proposal?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, the majority of training is done in-house, but Assiniboine Community College does have call centre training. It is 16 weeks. Red River Community College also has done some for social assistance recipients. We are looking to develop institutional programs, but the ACC has the call centre training in place now, and it is a 16-week program.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, can the minister tell us how many groups have been through that 16-week program? How many of those 16-week programs are being conducted each year?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, they have just started, so the first 16-week one, we are not sure, has either just completed or will soon be completed. So there is not an ongoing record yet that we can look to, but we indicate that it is now in place and that one is either underway or just completed.

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, could the minister table the curriculum for that program?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, it is Assinboine Community College's own curriculum, but I am positive they would be delighted to share it. I think they are proud and would be very pleased to provide that for interested people.

Ms. Friesen: Could the minister just explain two other things to me? I did not understand what is meant by object-oriented training centre, and this was in relation to two elements. There was a feasibility study, and then I think there was something else dealing with an object-oriented training centre.

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, that is an advanced computer language. It is used in a wide variety of engineering and applied business applications. It is very sophisticated and the people applying to take this type of training would have to have backgrounds in engineering or like disciplines.

Again, we do not have that curriculum here, but I am sure that Red River has it, and I am sure Assiniboine College, as well. I am sure that Assiniboine and Red River would be delighted to have that be tabled at something like this.

Ms. Friesen: I want to go back to the encouragement of employers to be involved in workplace-based training. Can the minister tell me if there are any programs that she is aware of in Industry, Trade and Tourism or in Education which plan to encourage that in some way beyond what we are looking at here, the Workforce 2000?

Mrs. McIntosh: I do not have in-depth knowledge of all of the things going on in Industry, Trade and Tourism. We come in as we do from Family Services where training components or capabilities have been identified and Education and Training's involvement is then requested.

So while Industry, Trade and Tourism will go out and bring in the call centre people, for example, and then say that they want to emphasize our bilingual nature here in Manitoba, we will then work, as we are here with St. Boniface College or other deliverers or with the community colleges, to ensure that there are training courses and programs available to meet those identified needs from Industry, Trade and Tourism or from welfare to work from Family Services or from the other departments which identify needs in training.

We also, of course, have the apprenticeships which are different from what she is talking about here but still do respond to the labour force, to trades that are required in the marketplace. There are new trades coming out all the time as new technologies come in place. Plastics is not something that was a trade when I went to school. Those things have come into being in recent years. Candlemaking was not in style when I went to school, but things do evolve.

So there will be new trades and so on coming up, and apprenticeships and so on need to reflect that, so we are always attempting to, either by interaction with industry or with other government departments, identify where we need to be putting our efforts and then make sure that we have components in place to meet those needs.

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Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I may not be on the right line, but in relation to something that was just tabled, this labour mobility chapter of agreement on internal trade, and I will wait to see if the Chair rules it as relevant or not, but I know the deputy minister or the assistant deputy minister comes from another area in regard to immigration, and I am wondering how this applies to trades coming from other countries and whether there is any work being done on apprenticeship credentials on people coming from other countries, whether they be machinists or whatever trades, and mobility of their credentials.

Is there any work being done within the department on that?

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I believe that the member for The Maples is right that this is not actually the right line, but I will leave it up to the minister if she would like to make the reply.

Mrs. McIntosh: We are undoubtedly having more success interprovincially than we are internationally, and even interprovincially we are still not completely there, but a lot of the Red Seal trades have--we have been making progress, but there is still a long way to go.

Mr. Kowalski: I noticed that it says, maintaining standards in 31 active apprenticeship trades. Is there an increase or a decrease in the number of apprenticeship trades in Manitoba?

Mrs. McIntosh: There is an increase.

Mr. Kowalski: Does the Department of Education look for areas where apprenticeship programs would fit in with the workplace, or do they wait for groups of trades or people to come forward to look at apprenticeship as a right way of credentialling and fulfilling job requirements?

In other words, is it industry motivated, or does the department go out and look for maybe some areas that are not traditionally considered apprenticeship programs, but in other areas of the world they have apprenticeship programs?

Mrs. McIntosh: We have gone in terms of numbers from 44 to 47, and they are largely industry initiated. Industry will come forward and say, we need this now to be a trade, a proper, certified apprenticeship-type trade, and they will have various reasons and rationale put forward for their request, and that is generally how new trades come into existence.

Mr. Kowalski: In my constituency, there are a large number of people who have emigrated from Germany, and they often cite in Germany the success of the apprenticeship programs there. Apprenticeship is not restricted to strictly the skilled trades, other areas, and that is why I asked if, rather than waiting for industries that possibly have never considered apprenticeship as the right model for training--I am just, off the top of my head, maybe in police work if we had an apprenticeship program, maybe in some other areas, health care, home care, some other areas, rather than waiting for the industry to come forward, would it not be wise for the department to go look at the workplace and look at other parts of the world to see where they do apprenticeship training in other areas?

Mrs. McIntosh: I indicate to the member that one of the things that is happening with our interprovincial thrust and the Red Seal trades that are coming up, our connections across Canada, as we start to talk to other provinces, we try to get interprovincial recognition that things that are trades in other provinces then have more of an opportunity to become trades here and vice versa.

Germany's system is a combination of academic skills and employment. So they have the two combinations, and they start them at a younger age. We have just started a high school option now for apprenticeship which is not unlike what happens in Germany. It is not exactly the same because they have had a long history of trades and apprenticeships as extremely viable options for their students.

Here in North America, we have shied away from that, but we are now looking to see the benefit in this, so you will see a senior years apprenticeship program available to students in high school now. This is different and new for Canada, certainly new for Manitoba. Students can earn complementary and supplementary credits for employment-based training as indentured apprentices right in school. We have six school divisions now making this available to their students and three others planning introduction for next year.

So we are moving in a direction that encourages more people into apprenticeships but also, I think, increases interest generically across the school system in apprenticeships by virtue of seeing it in the school, and that will lead, I believe, indirectly to more and more people saying, well, gee, why is this type of work not a trade, because they will be exposed to what trades are all about.

But the member makes a point that I think can be followed up in our interprovincial interaction on Red Seal trades, and that can be expanded from there.

Mr. Kowalski: Can the minister tell me, what are the six divisions that are looking at those apprenticeship programs and what are the three others--I think she said three others that we are considering. Can the minister possibly also tell me how many students are involved in those divisions?

Mrs. McIntosh: I can indicate, I think Morris-MacDonald is one of them, but I do not have the list or the numbers here. They are available. They are easily obtained and we can get that information for him.

Mr. Kowalski: The last comment on this line--recently, I was watching on--it was a company; I think it was Pratt and Whitney, saying that they had done a national campaign looking for 50 machinists for six months across Canada. They did national advertising, and they could not find qualified people anywhere in Canada. This employer was criticizing the educational system throughout Canada for the fact that here he had a high-paying, high-skilled job, and he could not find qualified people for it.

What are we doing in Manitoba in that area of computer-trained machinists to fulfill those high-skilled, high-paying jobs?

Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Chairman, the member identifies something that is really fundamental when I was critical of the other opposition critic about her attitude about--well, not her attitude necessarily, but her party's attitude about jobs, some jobs not being worthy jobs and other jobs being good jobs. One of the biggest problems we have found is in terms of things like automotive mechanics, long-distance truck driving, garment factory, where we have a huge demand for work and employers saying that they are going to move their businesses elsewhere if they cannot get employees; thousands of jobs empty and being sought.

A lot of it is attitude, and we are hoping that by moving apprentices into the high school, people will begin to say, hey, this is a really good career goal. Not only is it interesting work, it is darn good money. It is the kind of job that you do not have to drag home with you every night. A lot of it is changing attitudes to see these as viable options for good career choices and steady permanent employment.

Are you signalling I am through? I have apparently finished my time.

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I believe that tomorrow it has been agreed that we will open up in this committee under Environment.

The time being 5:30, committee rise.