SENIORS

Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Seniors Directorate.

Does the honourable Minister responsible for Seniors have any opening remarks?

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Chairperson, it is my pleasure as the newly appointed Minister responsible for Seniors to present the 1995-96 budget Estimates for the Seniors Directorate.

Today I would like to outline the directorate's activities for the past fiscal year and highlight some of the new initiatives planned for the coming year.

As we celebrate our 125 years as an energetic and enterprising province of Canada, it is only fitting that we recognize and appreciate our older Manitobans in their important role in our history. During our recent 125 and Seniors Day celebration at the Legislature, it was heart warming to watch the children and the seniors interact, after all seniors play such an important role in the life of the family and provide a sense of continuity between the generations.

I was particularly pleased to meet with the many seniors who came to our province from many countries. These seniors bring a heritage and a background which enriches our cultural diversity. They add an important dimension to the life of this province. I am looking forward to spending more time in multicultural communities and learning more about their traditions. Their seniors continue to be vital and important members of today's society. Their contributions to their communities and to Manitoba will become even more pronounced as their numbers increase. We continue to rely on their knowledge and their experience.

The role of Seniors minister is a very important and challenging one, that of preserving and enhancing the quality of life for older Manitobans. Let me assure you that I take this responsibility with great enthusiasm.

My staff at the Seniors Directorate will work with me to ensure that government policies and programs affecting seniors are sensitive to their needs and to their concerns. As you are aware, the directorate gathers information regarding seniors issues in a variety of ways, but essentially from the seniors themselves. The directorate has established close working relationships with seniors' groups throughout Manitoba. This allows the directorate to have ongoing dialogue with seniors on major areas of concern as well as providing information and other resources.

The Seniors Information Line continues to be well used by seniors, providing them with information, assistance and referral. The types of calls received reflect the issues and the concerns of seniors throughout Manitoba. In 1994 there were over 1,600 individual calls. This does not include the additional calls made by the directorate on following up on the various departments.

The directorate has developed and distributed a number of booklets for seniors. These booklets cover a variety of topics identified by seniors as areas where more important information should be provided.

Elder abuse continues to be a priority issue for the directorate. Their financial audio-visual, which was "Standing Up for Yourself," and accompanying booklets continue to be well used throughout Manitoba and throughout Canada. The guide for the development of protocols is widely used to help professionals respond to incidents of elder abuse in Manitoba. The same interdepartmental working group that developed this guide was working with the directorate in 1994 to produce another guide book, Abuse of the Elderly, A Manual for the Development of Multidisciplinary Teams. This working group has provided important information to aid interested professionals and communities in combatting this complex issue.

In June 1994, during Seniors Month, special celebrations were held in Killarney and Winnipeg. The directorate works with seniors' groups to plan these events.

During the past year the federal-provincial-territorial meetings of Ministers responsible for Seniors was held right here in Winnipeg. These meetings provide opportunities for us to share information and knowledge with our counterparts from across Canada.

We have established working committees to look at issues, share resources and co-operatively look for solutions. Areas of interest include continuing care, income security of seniors, the 1999 U.N. Year of Older Persons, and safety and security in the streets and in the homes.

The minister's column in Seniors Today has received a very positive response. Seniors have told us that the information is useful and is helpful. In response to the questions the seniors raised on the information line and at consultations, a bi-annual seniors newsletter, The Seniors Source, was introduced in December of 1994. The newsletter has assisted us in keeping in touch with seniors and, more importantly, has assisted seniors in keeping informed on current government programs and services that could assist them. Our next edition will be ready for distribution in June of this year.

As you can see, 1994 was a very busy year, and 1995-96 will continue even with a busier schedule. Some of the initiatives in 1995-96, I would like to just mention, are the aging of the Manitoba population coupled with other demographic trends over the past 40 years, such as the large-scale entry of women into the workforce, has led to an increased awareness of the phenomena of elder care. Many employees now find themselves providing care to aging family members in addition to juggling other workplace and home responsibilities. Employees are recognizing that elder care is an emerging workplace issue that places increased demands on their employees.

The Manitoba Seniors Directorate in partnership with Age and Opportunity have responded to this need by developing a kit on elder care. The kit contains Elder Care and Your Organization, a guide to a new reality in the workplace; Elder Care and You, a guide for the elder-caring employee; The Manitoba senior citizens resource handbook and a selection of brochures on seniors issues and their concerns.

The directorate will distribute the kit to business and organizations throughout Manitoba during the month of June. It will stimulate discussions and provide a useful tool for developing organizations specific policies and programs. The staff will also be available to co-ordinate workshops to businesses and organizations whose employees are dealing with the issue of caregiving stress. The directorate will be presenting a session on elder care and your organization as well as a session on elder abuse at the November Manitoba Health Organization annual conference.

The safety and security of the seniors of Manitoba is a priority. Frauds and Schemes continue to target those most vulnerable in our communities. If seniors could be made aware of what was occurring, they could protect themselves and alert others to potential dangers. The directorate will be working with the police and the RCMP to distribute seniors alert bulletins to senior centres, housing complexes, health units, drop-in centres and resource councils. These bulletins will contain information which will allow seniors to take action to protect themselves against those potential hazards.

As you are aware, the Manitoba Council on Aging began reporting to the Minister responsible for Seniors in May of 1994. This has been an extremely positive move for the Council on Aging, the Manitoba Seniors Directorate and the government of Manitoba. With the council reporting directly to the Minister responsible for Seniors, I am able to hear first-hand their issues and their concerns of seniors in Manitoba. This direct link between the minister and the council has ensured that seniors advice, experience and their knowledge is available to government in formulating policies and programs. It is extremely important that seniors have direct input on issues that affect them now and in the future.

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A significant concern of the council has been the negative profile of seniors that they will make a more accurate and realistic portrayal of today's seniors an issue of high priority. During the coming year, the Council on Aging will encourage community and businesses to recognize the value and the active participation of seniors. The council has consulted with a number of communities in the past year, and I strongly support this continuation of this process.

My directorate and staff and the council will be working closely in the coming years to ensure that seniors throughout Manitoba are given the opportunity to express their views and their concerns. This will provide me with a current and a realistic picture of seniors from a senior's perspective. This spring, the council published the sixth edition of the Manitoba Senior Citizens' Handbook. This comprehensive directory of programs, resources and services is an excellent guide available to older Manitobans.

The council and the directorate have formed a strong partnership and will work together to identify a number of areas for research so that seniors receive clear and accurate information on a variety of topics. This information will be distributed in the form of a one-page fact sheet and will look at items such as what to remember when you are moving, senior safety at home and in the community, tips on successful travelling, points on a healthy lifestyle and other topics of interest.

In closing, I believe that the Seniors Directorate and the Council on Aging have and will continue to have an important role to meet the needs of Manitoba seniors. Thank you.

Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: We thank the Minister responsible for Seniors for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Broadway, have any opening comments?

Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): I thank and congratulate the new minister appointed to Seniors Directorate. I wish him all the best in the performance of his function.

There are many issues that concern senior citizens in Manitoba. Of course, the first one outstanding would be the health needs of senior citizens. In addition to those issues on health needs, there are issues of inadequacy of income and relative poverty of some senior citizens, the inadequacy of their housing accommodations and the insufficiency of recreational opportunities to occupy active seniors and contribute to their wellness and health and well-being, the mobility problem of seniors, particularly those who are disabled, and the accessibility of some public premises, escalators, that will help seniors move around if they want to have some kind of mobility.

Although the minister had focused on the important role of senior citizens in the life of our family, it is now time, I think, that the department be given resources of its own, budgetary allocation of its own, at its own disposal, so that it can initiate substantive programs itself and not merely an adjunct to other departments, such as the Department of Health or Housing or other major departments of government, because without the power to allocate money for its own programming all that the Seniors Directorate can do is what it has been doing--providing information. Information is good, but they will not do any kind of good for senior citizens in terms of their substantive needs.

So I think since there is a time for everything under the sun, it is now time that the Seniors Directorate be given resources of its own, at its own disposal, in order to undertake its own activities. That is only consistent with the growing role of seniors in the life of this country.

As the honourable minister suggested, there is the aging pattern in our population and the demographic distribution of people and the lengthening lifespan generally of senior citizens.

With respect to this point, in 1991 I pointed out that the oldest living Canadian who was known to live was one named Jeanette Thompson from Toronto who lived up to the age 110. The Guinness Book of Record internationally had suggested that a Frenchman named Pierre Joubert of France is the longest living human being who had lived up to 113 years.

But lately I noted one more older than that. It broke the record. This is a person named Shigechivo Izumi from Asan. This is authenticated and documented. He had lived up to 120 years and 237 days. He was recorded as a six-year-old in the first census of Japan in 1871, and he died in February 21, 1986, after developing pneumonia. He had been working up to the age of 105, and when asked what the secret of his longevity is, he said he drank sho-chu. This is the fire water distilled from sugar. He attributed his life to God, the Buddha and the sun. This is provided by the Guinness Book of Record for 1995, so that is the new record, 120 years, 235 days.

That is not the only problem emerging with our province and with Canada as a whole. We have to take care of these people and we have to feed them whether they are over 65 or under 65. Canada now has at least 12 percent of our total population of the age of 65 or older. By the year 2010, when the baby boomers should have retired, this ratio will rise dramatically. There will be at least 25 percent of Canadians who will be elderly. At the same time, there will be fewer taxpayers, who will have the burden of paying for them.

Indeed, in 1994--this was last year--the Canada Pension Plan for the first time ran a deficit, in its 128 years of existence. Seniors will then be thought of as an expensive burden to society. The boomer generation, who had opted for fancy cars, large houses, costly holidays instead of having children ironically would have impaired their own retirement by not contributing to the new generation of Canadians.

Indeed, we can say that the traditional white, western Canadian is an endangered species, because the replacement rate for birth in Canada now averages only 2.1 children. The normal replacement rate should have been 1.7, but it has now dropped under that rate, so you could see now that there is a changing demographic composition of Canadian population. This will be pointing to more problems for the province and for the country as a whole.

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For example, under the present condition now--this is very recent; I got this information from the Free Press--in 1991, Canadians who are neither British nor French decent constitute now 47 percent in this province, although the national average is only 30.9 percent. That is 31 percent. There are about 110 ethnic groups in the province of Manitoba today--205,000 Scots, 76,000 aboriginals, 23,000 Filipinos, 2,000 Laotians and many other groups of people who had been immigrating to this country to fill up the gap, the lack of replacement births of our generation.

While there are many problems of Seniors, I would like to focus on the health problem because health to me is a value next to life itself. Without health a person will not enjoy his existence. Indeed, there is a person who had argued for the right to terminate their existence because of lack of health.

The health problem of Canadians is important. At the same time, we are witnessing the diminution of our health care system in terms of funding, in terms of coverage, in terms of availability and accessibility and, at the same time, the number of seniors is increasing as the years roll by, so we can see the inevitable problem that will be confronting us in the very near future.

That is the reason why the health issue had been an outstanding issue in the last election. The record had indicated that ensuring the quality of health care had been a major issue in the last issue. It has been the issue for at least 46 percent among the New Democratic Party members, 23 percent for Progressive Conservatives and 30 percent for the Liberal Party in the last election.

According to Dr. Evelyn Shapiro, who is a member of the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, the biggest issue in the election was whether people believed that one party or another party could maintain the principles on which the Canada Health Act had been founded, namely, the principles of universality, portability, accessibility of medically required services and the public administration aspect of the health care system.

Can we be able to afford to maintain such a principle and maintain the integrity of the Canada Health Act in the face of dwindling resources and high unemployment and a decreasing population in the country as a whole and in Manitoba in particular?

The health care expenditure in Manitoba has been--as I said, I will focus on the health problem, and this concerns the senior citizens the most.

Health care in Manitoba as late as 1985 had been set at at least $1 billion expenditure. That was the health care spending in 1985. In 1993 this had stabilized at $1.8 billion, that is, almost $2 billion of provincial budget. There had been an attempt on this government to provide for some savings but at the expense of cutting some essential services. Hospital spending, for example, rose 15 percent from 1989 and peaked in 1992-93 at $969 million, but then it dropped again to $918 million. Medical spending, meanwhile, had been increasing, which includes doctors' fees plus private medical laboratories and x-ray fees and other fees to practitioners such as chiropractors. The spending peaked at $280 million.

The bulk of the spending had been on doctors' fees, but the most outstanding item of expenditure is the cost of prescription drugs. Prescription drugs jumped 36 percent in 1989 to 1992 to $60 million when the province clamped down hard on the extent of coverage. The deductible had risen and the spending has stabilized at $54 million over the past two years. You could see that health care expenditure is increasing, and it is primarily due to fees and to the cost of prescription drugs.

When people are sick the usual tendency, according to conventional medicine, is to kill the germs, the bacteria, so the rationalization is for antibiotics and prescription drugs and other kinds of treatment, or they do radiation. They try to act on the dead cells of the body through radiation or they simply carve out and cut the portion that is no longer functioning. This is the surgical method, surgical procedure, surgery. In all these traditional and conventional ways of dealing with diseases the unintended consequence that we do not desire is the fact that the natural immune system of the physical body is weakened. When you administer prescription drugs to the body the disadvantage is that you do not kill all the germs and at the same time you weaken the natural immune system of the physical body.

We know that there is one gland in our body called the thymus. This is a very important gland in our body. It is just located behind our breast bone. It releases hormones which cause our body to be able to resist bacteria invading our physical body system, like viruses, germs, parasites, moles, allergies. Anything that enters into our system there is an army of defenders ready all the time to fight the invaders, and this is commanded by the thymus gland. That is our immune system. This is most active when we are babies, but then it diminishes its function as we grow older.

The fact of the matter of what I am saying is that when we try to kill the germs, we weaken that immune system, and the body now becomes dependent on the administered drugs. If you cannot sleep, you take sleeping pills, and you no longer can sleep unless you take more sleeping pills. The more you take sleeping pills, you end up like Elvis Presley or some other--[interjection] Yes. So this is due to the prescription drugs.

What is the natural way to deal with all your problems? If you have a headache, you go and sleep it off--the natural way. Then you keep your immune system in top shape, and you will be able to counteract all kinds of invaders in your bodily system. The truth of the matter is that when we have antibiotics and they cannot kill all the germs, you know what happens? A new strain of resistant bacteria will emerge from this, some of these germs that you cannot wipe out because of this weakness of antibiotics. It is not a perfect system. You cannot simply kill all the germs without killing the person.

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When this new strain of bacteria comes around, there is no modern known antibiotics that can deal with that. Well, ebola, for example, now in African countries. The one that attacked Lucien Bouchard's leg, that is just a normal streptococcus that had gone wild and he lost his leg. It could have been his life. There are other strains of resistant bacteria--AIDS, for example. It has been due to the fact that the human body's immune system is no longer functioning, and this is all because of overprescription, overadministration of drugs. Who is benefiting in all of these purchases and sales of drugs, allegedly to bolster our health care system? Do you know who is making all the money? Well, the multinational drug companies. What do they care if people die as long as they make money.

If government cannot restrain this tendency, it means that there will be a more and more expensive health care system, more and more profit to those multinational companies, less and less health on the part of the citizen and therefore more misery to human beings.

Of all the age groups, only the senior citizens are susceptible to certain kinds of diseases. The most notable one, perhaps, allegedly prevalent among senior citizens is the Alzheimer's disease. It is now one of the leading causes of death among the elderly in Canada. What is Alzheimer? Alzheimer is a degenerative brain disorder. It destroys the vital brain cells. There is no known cause of it, nor any known cure as far as I know.

We as a nation spend $3.5 billion a year to provide institutional care for people with Alzheimer's disease and related dementia. Alzheimer, mind you, can strike at any age but it is most commonly experienced among people over the age of 65. When I forgot things around, I was sometimes suspecting I might be in deception of having this dreaded disease. Well, sometimes you become so forgetful and then you suspect that maybe you are at the threshold of having Alzheimer.

I have referred to some strain of bacteria that the drugs can no longer deal with. The technical name of Lucien Bouchard's bacteria in his leg is necrotizing fasciitis. A relative of that, the one that attacked a young boy two years old, and he died, is simply streptococcus pneumonia. It is said to be the same kind of virus but attacking deeper in organs.

Then another member of parliament, in fact, a member of the Reform Party by the name of Randy White, had cellulitis, supposedly of the same strain that attacked Bouchard's leg. But he was able to survive in the sense that he was able to arrest the growth of this disease.

I wonder why bacteria are attacking members of Parliament. I am just wondering why.

These bugs are fighting back. You know, when antibiotics fight disease by killing bacteria, they cannot kill all the bacteria. The survivors become all the more strong and then we use a stronger dose of antibiotics. But in the overdose these supergerms, I will call them supergerms, can eat penicillin for lunch and erythromycin for dessert.

You cannot kill them. So we have all kinds of dreaded diseases. The most common one is of course AIDS disease.

Now, what is the point of all this? The point is that we would not have been in this predicament if we had only allowed the natural immune system the way it is designed to perform its function. The body has a natural mechanism for fighting diseases, and the body can be aided by proper nutrition and also by proper physical activities, exercise and other preventive kinds of practices that would render us healthy and well and enjoy life to the fullest.

But the trouble with some of our people, including some members of this legislative body, they continually indulge in some habits that they know for certain that it is no good for their body. The minister suggested smoke, and this is correct. Smoking is a major cause of heart disease. Not only heart disease--you know the strain of other diseases that flow from that habit.

It is a fact also that it is more popular in rural Manitoba than in Winnipeg. Yes, two-thirds of rural Manitobans smoke compared to only one-third of urban dwellers. These are statistics.

The smoke from tobacco directly causes the genetic damage that leads to cancer. There is a new finding on this one. The New England Journal of Medicine is saying, the molecular proof is that smoking increases the rate of mutation in a specific gene they call P53.

A cancer specialist named David Sidransky said that the damage to this gene plays a central role in the development of cancer. So the more you smoke the more you expose yourself to that danger and risk. And if you do it knowingly, who are you to blame except yourself?

But they say, I cannot help it, I do not feel good unless I do. Of course, the short run is, it is good when you feel good and you inhale it, but then the long-run effect will be terrible, but we can only blame ourselves for our own misfortune.

I have stated that nutritious food is essential. We have to understand, however, the working of the different kinds of foods. Generally, we can--oh, well, this is a layman's view of classifying the intake of what we eat. We generally eat things they call carbohydrates or it is protein or it is fat or it is sugar. Now, depending on what kind we eat, these chemicals emanating from these food categories and the brain chemical from our physical body will interplay. There are physiological factors at work as to whether some of them will be effective or not, depending whether we have exercise activities or we smoke, it affects this chemical level.

Lack of food will, of course, generate certain reactions in our physical body, but it is a question of knowing which kind of food to eat and under what circumstances.

Mr. Reimer: A Big Mac.

Mr. Santos: The minister said, you can eat a Big Mac. Well, there is nothing wrong with that except maybe it has lots of fats, more than you desire.

It amazes me that some people take care of their car much more than they take care of their own body. We only have one body. You may have at least five or six cars in your lifetime, but you only have one body to take care of so you must at least take care of your own body by watching what you eat.

Mr. Reimer: That is right. I have not waxed my body for a long time.

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Mr. Santos: I know the honourable minister has been jogging early in the morning. I know he has his one-hour walk in the morning. I heard that from CJOB the other day. This is good. Exercise is good for the physical body.

Now we do not have to eat drugs in order to deal with some of our ailments--

Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: I would just like to give you notice of two minutes remaining.

Mr. Santos: Two minutes. Okay.

The point I want to emphasize is that our health care system should also recognize what they call natural medicine. Instead of relying entirely on conventional medicine which is, as I said, predicated on prescription, on radiation and surgery and overprescription of drugs, there are alternatives. The alternative is, of course, a balanced diet, the whole kind of food items that you can eat. Some of them have medicinal value.

Do you not know that apples lower cholesterol and blood pressure? They stabilize your blood sugar. They can also kill infectious diseases, eating an apple a day. The old saying, an apple a day, keeps the doctor away is true.

Bananas, a simple fruit, they prevent and heal ulcers. They lower your cholesterol level, and they stabilize your heart beating regularly. It has potassium which strengthens the muscles of the heart.

Carrots, a simple food, cuts the risk of lung cancer. It reduces blood fats, prevents your colon cancer from developing.

Good wine, red wine is antiseptic, is better than penicillin, and you enjoy it.

Broccoli, the one that President Bush does not want to eat, is a powerful cancer fighter.

Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I would interrupt the member to bring to your attention that the time for your opening remarks has expired.

I would like to thank the critic for the official opposition for those remarks.

I would like to, at this time, invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and to ask the minister to introduce his staff present.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, it is my pleasure to introduce from the Seniors Directorate Kathy Yurkowski and also Dorothy Hill.

Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Thank you.

We will proceed with the Estimates of the Seniors Directorate on page 133 of the Estimates book, starting with the Operating Appropriations.

Item 1. Seniors Directorate $488,700. Shall the item pass?

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): I welcome the minister to his new challenges and wish him well. I look forward to seeing him in our community, in St. Johns, at different functions from time to time.

We in the community are very proud of the Gwen Secter Creative Living Centre. I look forward to seeing the minister there in particular. It is really a model of the kind of facility that I think serves not just seniors but the whole community very well. It is a meeting place. It is a place of learning, a place of fun, particularly for the Jewish community, not just in north Winnipeg but throughout Winnipeg.

The Gwen Secter Creative Living Centre has, for some time, had a fitness program for seniors. It is a preventative health program to maintain the health of people through aerobics, for example. There was a fitness co-ordinator that was funded, I believe, mainly through the Winnipeg Foundation, and the funding, unfortunately, expired. I then went to the provincial government, both to the Seniors Directorate or the Minister responsible for Seniors and to the Health department, only to discover that there was no fund available whatsoever in the provincial government to continue this important kind of program.

I think this kind of program is, like the centre itself, a model and the sort of prevention program which the provincial government has a stake in. I think it certainly fits with some of the statements that were set out in the action plan on health care a number of years ago by the Health department.

In the response from the Health minister, it was suggested that the private sector be looked to for funding for the program. By the way, the amount requested was a mere $14,000. I say a mere because I know the amounts of the budgets, particularly of the Department of Health, and I know how long that kind of funding will enjoy benefits for the individuals and for the community.

I understand that the responsibilities of the minister do not include funding of such programs. I am wondering if the minister would undertake to pursue funding for this program. The program is staggering along right now with some other funding sources internal to the Gwen Secter Creative Living Centre--but to ensure that this kind of program has stable and predictable funding, at least in part, through the provincial government.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to just expand a little further on what the member for St. Johns has mentioned regarding the Gwen Secter situation.

I had the opportunity to be at that location. In fact, in my previous duties before I became minister, I was the legislative assistant to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, and from time to time, I also did functions on behalf of various other departments of the government, and I was invited through--I believe the time I did go to their fundraising they had a tea on--Family Services at that time to make representation, so I am fairly familiar with the location and the involvement with it.

The one thing that was quite noticeable at the time was the number of volunteers and the people who, you know, had come forth for that particular fundraising event regarding the tea and all the individuals who were involved with the program.

It is an important area. It serves a very vital part of the community, as was mentioned by the member for St. Johns. In fact, Gwen Secter, the name itself is quite synonymous in the community because of her involvement. Just as a sideline, her granddaughter is a very active participant in the Jewish theatre and in some of the other programs, so the name is continuing to be noticed in the community.

The member did mention the alternative of going to the private area for funding and for the continuation of the recreation position which is something that I guess can be pursued in the sense of trying to raise a portion of the $14,000. What we can do through the Seniors Directorate is try to maybe approach a co-ordination as to what the problem is that we can work through and try to work not only through the Seniors Directorate but through Health, so that there is a line of communication and an awareness of what the problem is at that particular location and try to come to some sort of direction of recourse on the availability of what can be done there.

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Mr. Mackintosh: I certainly urge the minister to take an activist role with his colleagues in the cabinet on this issue of preventative health for seniors and, in particular, go to bat for the Gwen Secter Creative Living Centre program.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile for me to contact the director, Madeline Kohut, who could get in touch with the minister, and they could establish some dialogue. Hopefully, we can get some positive results for the centre.

Mr. Reimer: I am totally available to meet with the individuals involved through and along with the Seniors Directorate, certainly in any way of communication and a resolve. We can look at alternatives and try to come to a resolve on it for the member for St. Johns.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I am not the critic for Seniors amongst the three Liberal MLAs, but Neil Gaudry, who is our critic, is in another Estimates. With our small numbers here, we have to spread ourselves rather thin.

I would like to also add my words of congratulations to the minister. I have already personally given it to the minister. I have attended a number of functions with him, and we have enjoyed each other's company. I also have to say, he has one of the nicest offices in this building. I knew the former tenant or resident there, and we had many good times in that office, and I hope he enjoys it as much as we did.

In my constituency, a very small percentage of the population is seniors, but I also represent for the Liberal members of the Manitoba Legislature the one in four Manitobans who did vote Liberal and amongst many of them were seniors, so this is a very important area for us.

One of the areas that I have a great concern for is the number of seniors attending gambling facilities. Amongst the two gambling facilities here that the government has built, both of them coincidentally in the north end of Winnipeg, in Transcona and in the north end, if you go during the day, a disproportionate number of the people making use of those facilities are seniors, disproportionate to their percentage in the population.

Has the directorate done any research, or has it been working with the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba? Has there been any assessment on the impact of gambling and gambling addiction to seniors in Manitoba?

Mr. Reimer: The member for The Maples raises a very interesting and a very worthy question regarding the whole area of gambling, and I believe that he is aware that a commission has been formed with the former member MLA Mr. Larry Desjardins in looking at the various ramifications as to where and what is happening with gambling in and around Manitoba. I would think that the concern can be brought forth to that commission regarding presentations that are being held in Winnipeg, so that there is the perspective brought forth regarding the concerns that he is talking about today.

In looking at the gambling, I can also bring to his attention the fact that at his suggestion I will bring this forth with discussions with MSOS and also with the Council on Aging to get their type of input and their feedback into what type of scenarios that they are being forced with as per contact on a formal basis to the Seniors Directorate. There have not been any type of formal overtures made to the department regarding that particular area of seniors and gambling. But it is something that, I guess, has anything--anticipation and the fact of looking at beforehand before it becomes a problem of concern of an overly strong magnitude that we can initiate it in our department to look at, as I say, through MSOS and also the Council on Aging to get input on theirs and try to work co-operatively in looking at a resolve on it for him.

Mr. Kowalski: The inquiry line, the type of calls--out of those calls that have been received, is there any indication how many, if any, of the calls concerned gambling addiction among seniors?

Mr. Reimer: I could just relate to the member for The Maples what has happened regarding the calling. To December 31, 1994, there have been just over 7,000 calls brought forth to the Seniors Information Line, and just as a matter of record I will just refer to the percentages of calls that have come in and the various areas of concern for them. The biggest request has been for pamphlets and brochures, which took up 16 percent. Inquiries regarding home care and health problems were 14 percent. Inquiries regarding pensions were 13 percent. Housing, as the member for Broadway has mentioned took up 11 percent. General information was about 9 percent; home repair, 8 percent. Taxes, not only the income tax but the federal and provincial taxes, were about 5 percent. The service for seniors, which was also phoned in and requested for, was just over 3.5 percent. There was a request for the senior citizen's card. There were legal inquiries. There were inquiries regarding the UIC and employment. There were requests for information on recreation and education, financial assistance, transportation and elder abuse. The info line itself is just to find out what was also available. As to the inquiries that were mentioned, there were no inquiries regarding gambling and the co-ordination of seniors with gambling, no.

I should also, for the record, just say that the phone number here in Winnipeg is 945-6565 and the toll free number is 1-800-665-6565.

Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Operating Appropriations 1. Seniors Directorate.

Mr. Santos: One of the problems of senior citizens, of course, particularly those who used to be housewives who never worked is they do not have any old age pension, no CPP, but as we have stated they are growing older and older and they will be around for a while. Therefore, there is a need to take a second look at our pension system in Canada. I know that this is federal, CPP is federal jurisdiction.

The question is, does your government, honourable minister, have any proposal to increase old age pension so we can take care of people who will be living beyond 65, beyond 70, beyond 75, beyond 85--any proposal to the federal government? Do you have any position paper that could provide for and take care of our senior citizens?

Mr. Reimer: Firstly, I would like to compliment the member for Broadway as my official critic for Seniors in the sense that his in-depth analysis of the department, his astuteness on the problems and the concerns, and particularly his research on the subjects that he brings forth are well noted, and I look forward to working with him in the resolve of problems regarding the situations and the circumstances regarding seniors here in Manitoba and Winnipeg. I feel that his area of expertise and his probing of questions are always very interesting in the sense of his background and his availability of information that he brings forth.

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So I look forward to working very closely with the critic for the official opposition in trying to bring a resolve, and hopefully we can work in a co-operative manner in trying to bring a resolve to concerns. I feel that I believe as he feels that one of the most important assets of our society is the people of Manitoba. As the portion of our population ages, they are not only becoming more visible but becoming more educated and more sophisticated in their expectations and their demands and their availability of what is and what is not available for use in their lifestyle.

So it is going to be an interesting portfolio in my sense, and I feel that the importance that our government puts on seniors and their contribution to Manitoba and the fabric of Manitoba is something that we can be very proud of. I particularly will enjoy working with the member because he and I have shared many speaking engagements and events not only through various departments, but in the multicultural community he is a very strong advocate and a very vocal person within his own community, and he and I have spent time together in the pursuit of addressing and talking with various areas. I respect his contributions and his areas of critic involvement, if you want to call it, in the sense of his involvement particularly with my department. So I feel it will be a very worthwhile relationship between the two of us.

Regarding his question in regard to pension, the administration of monies, he is right in saying that it is a federal responsibility as to the payment of the Canada Pension Plan, but I can mention to him that the federal government, to our knowledge, is now going through a pension paper review plan which we will be discussing. There is a ministers' conference coming up, I believe, in May of 1996, and at that time the ministers will be made available of the government's position for this paper that they are preparing for discussion. At that time there is a possibility of looking at all avenues of the seniors and possibly revenue implications that they are going to be doing on it.

The meeting I mentioned is going to be in New Brunswick, so it is something that I look forward to not only for that area but in getting in contact with cohorts across Canada to see that there is a commonalty of problems or commonalty of solutions, more importantly.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, is the minister saying that they will be developing a position paper so that the government can deal with this issue of how this aging population of seniors in Manitoba will be provided for as the years roll by?

Mr. Reimer: It would be hard for me to speculate as to what the federal government is looking at and what the parameters they are looking at regarding their positioning of involvement. We have seen through the federal Liberal Party now in power that a lot of the things that they were elected for and the promises they made on election day are things that have gone by the way. I can only hope that the integrity and the direction that the minister responsible for seniors on the federal level still has the confidence of his cabinet and his colleagues in looking at it in a very objective way and in a very fruitful way and to recognize, as the member for Broadway has said, that the growing segment of population and the fact of the importance of seniors and their visibility are going to be something of note that we can run with in an era of optimism, that the federal government is still committed to making some sort of changes. In fact, we are looking at it in a positive way.

On our behalf, as the representative for Manitoba at that conference, I can say that the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) can rest assured that our position will be brought forth in a very strong and very vigorous way as to the value and the importance that we place not only in our Seniors Directorate but also our government commitment to look after, in a sense, the concerns and the well-being of the seniors and to the involvement of consultation and make a strong case on their behalf.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, we know that, because of the increasing numbers of senior citizens all across Canada, the federal government has a problem also, and the provincial government cannot simply say that it is up to the federal government to deal with this problem. In fact, there is a plan to reduce transfer payments from the federal government to the provinces by about $7 billion less in the coming next two fiscal years, and that certainly will affect the budget allocation for the support of seniors in terms of their CPP and other old age assistance and other needs.

Even as late as 1991, the per capita spending for every elderly Canadian all across the nation who is 65 years old or less is $6,500 per capita. This is compared to the spending of the federal government for a younger person, let us say 15 years old or younger, who only gets about $2,500 per head. So the older the seniors get, the more social spending becomes necessary to sustain and support them, because the older we get the more health care spending will be needed.

For example, those who over 65 years old will at least have, according to the statistics, 4.5 percent greater spending needed than those who are under 65. If they become 75 years or older, the spending for health care becomes 6.7 percent greater than when the individual is in the younger seniors group. The older you get, the more expenditure; and the more expenditure, the more money you need.

As you know, the deficit in the federal government is so great that even paying the interest payment alone on the deficit cuts down on substantial program spending. That is the reason why there is a return spent in the federal financial transfer to the provinces. The provinces will have to be imaginative in trying to devise programs that will deal with our social problems, particularly with senior citizens.

My concern here is, what can this Seniors Directorate do if it has no appropriate power to initiate substantial program spending? All it can do is merely provide information; it is the Health department and other big departments of government that make the decision. I think the fact that by the next 40 years seniors in this province alone will jump to as many as 28 percent of Manitoba's population implies that the Seniors Directorate--I say you are not the government--be correspondingly given more and more responsibility in initiating program activities, substantive programs to take care of the welfare of senior citizens.

Would the minister work for this kind of direction?

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Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, the member from Broadway (Mr. Santos) is very correct in his assumption that what we are seeing happening with the federal Liberal government is the fact that they are looking at a huge amount of money that they are going to be sort of taking out transfer payments, not only to Manitoba, but to a lot of citizens of Canada. In fact, when they talk about the paring down of the government, they are talking about the major departments that we as a government feel our entirely most important, which is Health, Education, and social services. At the same time, the federal government is looking at their allocation of funding and, as mentioned by the member from Broadway, there is the possibility that a lot of this allocation of funding will have an effect on the seniors and on the programs and the availability of what and where they are headed for.

The member alluded earlier in his opening statement regarding the lifestyle, not only the lifestyle but the health and the diet and the availability of nutrition in making a healthier society for people, and which in effect is making people live longer. His analysis of the one person who lived to a 120 years is something that I guess everyone should strive for in a sense, but if everybody did, the costs associated with it would be of an increasing nature for all governments. But all governments are aware of the fact that the dollar--there is only one taxpayer in the sense of where the money comes from, and the best utilization and the priorities of funding are something we take very seriously.

I will say that the Seniors Directorate is looking at preparing retirement information, but it is retirement information that comes into effect not only when the person retires but the information is coming into effect before the person retires so that people would have to become aware that, as they get older, they have to do a preparation, not only of their financial life but of their social life and their attitude of what is important and where they are headed. Once they come to, as the member mentioned, the retirement age of 60 or 65 or 70 or 75, because of certain incidences people that are 60 are still very, very productive or even at 65 are very, very productive, very contributory not only to their lifestyle but to the economy of Manitoba and to Canada so that there is an interpretation of what actually is retirement and when it takes effect. People can go right through till 70 years old or 75, and they are still very, very strong in their contributions to society.

I should point out to him that the Council on Aging, the topic itself being the Council on Aging, it is a council that is comprised of not only seniors. There are younger people on that council. I believe, in fact, there are five that are in their 40s in that Council on Aging. There is more and more of an awareness that we do not put a category on aging being people over 50, pardon me, over 60 or over 65. Aging is a process of life, and the more that the people are aware of what it affects and how they should be prepared for it, it makes it easier for the whole lifestyle. There is not a point in time or a door that a person walks through to say that I am now in a retirement mode. I think they are made aware of the lifestyle that they can pursue, if they start at an age where there is a recognition of what is involved with the end of their work years or their time that they can enjoy, that there is a planning towards an end that is a fulfillment of it.

We are working very, very closely with other departments regarding the seniors so that there is not only an awareness by this directorate but an awareness through the various other departments as to what our directives and what our goals are, so that there is more of a co-ordination of effort and effect in there. The member can be assured that these are of high priority and more and more of an awareness within not only our directorate but within all departments of government.

Mr. Santos: The minister mentioned a unit of government called Manitoba Council on Aging. I am not clear who are the members of this council. Who are they and how are they appointed?

Mr. Reimer: The Manitoba Council on Aging was actually created in 1980, and it serves in an advisory capacity to the government. At that time it was through the Minister of Health. In 1994, which was just last year, because of the situation, it has been transferred over in a sense to the Seniors Directorate for reporting. It reports back to the Minister of Seniors regarding its activities. Its role and its terms of reference, if the member is interested, helps to identify areas of opportunities for government in adapting the policies and the programs and the institutions to accommodate the changing structure of our Manitoba population. It is also mandated to increase the public knowledge and the understanding of the aging process and its implications of not only the seniors but of all ages, as I mentioned earlier, in Manitoba. It will also be reviewing projects, programs, proposals and problems that are related to the aging population that are referred to the council by the minister. It gives an opportunity for the minister to have a vehicle of a sounding board, in a sense, and to have as a vehicle of correspondence and to talk about programs with or policies.

It is also to provide for the public a consultative process through the meetings they will have, not only here in the large urban areas but they will have meetings in the rural areas so that they are made available and access for people of the general population to come and bring forth their views. The council is made up of 15 members who are appointed by the minister, and they serve either a two-or-three-year term.

If the member would like, I can give him the names of the people who are sitting on the board presently. Edith Earley is the chairperson right at the moment. There is a Dr. Stuart Hampton, Victor Sobkowich, Helen Malcolm, Mary Kraigsley, Ralph Kennedy, Marie MacDonald, Dr. Benjamin Sutter, Margaret Born, Gaye Selby, Brenna Raemer, George Flett, Joyce Buhr, Mary Perfect, and Jo-Ann McKenzie.

I should point out that these are people who are appointed from various areas of Manitoba. They are not just strictly urban appointees or people from the Winnipeg area. They serve as a very valuable resource not only for the directorate but for the minister in input and output, in a sense, of problems and concerns regarding seniors and what they would like to bring forth to government.

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Mr. Santos: Even the new function of the Manitoba Council on Aging is giving advice to the minister. Is it within their mandate to come up with some initiatives or a proposal for any kind of substantive program that would call for some budgetary allocations?

Mr. Reimer: They do not have spending authority to initiate a program or the availability of funds to spend in initiating any type of program, but they do have the ability to come forth with recommendations to the minister. Their viewpoints and their suggestions are sought as to what the pulse is, if you want to call it, in the community. But, no, they do not have the ability to allocate funds.

Mr. Santos: I am not saying they should be given the authority to look at funds. I am saying it will be an exercise in futility on their part if all their advice and all their studies and all their hearings and all their input will come to naught unless the department itself, through the minister himself, will be given by the cabinet some kind of spending authority on any possible initiative for program activities.

This all boils down to my initial problem with the department.

Mr. Reimer: I believe the member for Broadway is familiar with process in government as to any type of proposal that comes forth, whether it is through the Seniors Directorate, or through my department, or any other type of department where there is a seeking forth of information through boards or commissions that are part of government, that we use these as a very valuable tool because of their volunteer nature that they have the ability to have access to the department, to the minister with the suggestions as to what they feel is very important, and for government, with the formation of the various boards and commissions, it is for the sole purpose of getting feedback and to get the types of initiatives or the types of directions in which the particular mandate is put forth.

As mentioned earlier, the terms of reference that the board is created for are to help to identify the needs and the areas of opportunities that the government should possibly be looking at in its programs, its policies and its institutions.

So the board does have the ability and the avenue of recourse as a direct link to the minister, with the minister being part of government to bring forth these types of initiatives to government for discussion and/or implementation and for direction.

They do serve as a very, very valuable tool of an initiating type of change or initiatives that are of importance in the community. They become the ears and eyes, in a sense, and another direct resource that the minister relies on quite heavily in consultation because, as the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) knows, as elected officials, we are in a position and we have to be mindful of the fact that we are there as servants of the people for their input and their direction. That is our primary function as elected officials, to be aware of what is in the electorate's mind.

The boards and commissions are a conduit of that type of information that we highly prize, and we take seriously their recommendations when they do come forth. They are brought forth within the parameters of budgetary objectives and the priorities of directions, and it is a matter of where that particular program is in the priorities of government and our areas of direction that we feel are for the best of all areas that we feel are important.

The Seniors Directorate and the Seniors department being identified as an entity in itself holds a very high priority within the government as to their value and their contributions to policies and decisions, so they are taken in a very serious manner because of their involvement.

Mr. Santos: When the Manitoba Council on Aging was attached to the Department of Health, the Department of Health had a budget of at least $1.8 billion to spend, so when they come up with any kind of program initiative, the Minister of Health, as the minister of the department, immediately can formulate those programs because it is within the mandate of that department.

Now the Seniors Directorate, unlike the Department of Health, has no budget for substantive program activities, and even the minister, as Minister responsible for Seniors, will have no such spending authority at his own discretion, on his own judgment, on his own factual base. He has to go to the Department of Health and ask the Minister of Health to undertake such ideas.

So I am saying if they transfer the Manitoba Council on Aging from the Department of Health with budgeting authority and spending authority, they should correspondingly also give the Seniors Directorate the same proportionate spending power, so that all the recommendations of the Manitoba Council on Aging will immediately be implemented or be formulated by the Minister responsible for Seniors, otherwise they will be exercising futility. The expertise of these people will be put to no good use because the minister himself, as Minister responsible for Seniors, cannot initiate substantive programs.

Let us say they come up with a preventative health care program for senior citizens. Let us say, they come up with a preventive health care program for senior citizens. Let us say it is a good idea, a good program, I realize now in its formative stages. It comes to the minister's table. As Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Reimer), he has to go to the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), saying, what do you think about this? Is that a good arrangement, I ask the minister?

Mr. Reimer: I would think that I repeat myself in a sense when I say to the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) that I believe he is very familiar with government process, with his involvement with government, being in government and then also his involvement as critic now. He is quite aware that the placement of a particular department, within all the same parameters regarding every department within government, when initiatives are brought forth, they are brought forth, whether it is brought forth through the Health department or through the Seniors Directorate or through my department or through, for example, even Rural Development type of initiatives and things like that, they all go through the same type of budgetary process of analysis and interpretation so that there is not the predominance of decision making because of the size of the department.

I think he recognizes that when we talk about the Health department we are talking about the biggest department in Manitoba. Our budgetary item for Health, as he mentioned himself, has grown under our administration from over a billion dollars to $1.8 billion. He also pointed out how under our administration the drug care program has increased dramatically because of our concerns and our commitment to health care in Manitoba and how our budgetary items have always been a priority. I am glad that the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) recognized that in his opening statement.

When the Council on Aging was involved with the Health department, the Council on Aging was dealing on sort of a staff basis as to their input into the department. What has happened now with their transfer to the Ministry responsible for Seniors is, they have direct access to the minister himself. The lines of communication are more direct to a senior position, as the minister, and their concerns or their involvement can be more directly attributed to decision making because of the responsibility and the fact the minister has made them part of direct access to him.

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When they were involved with the Health department they were dealing with staff. The lines of communication could get a little longer, could get a little slower because, as the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) knows, dealing with the largest department in our government and with one minister and the amount of various, various departments that the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) must look after. His time and his involvement are of much greater demand than a department like myself which has the Council on Aging reporting directly. I would think that the opportunity for the Council on Aging to have a more positive input and a more constructive input as to directions and policies and answering of problems are--the time elimination is tremendous that they have this availability now of a direct contact.

I believe the Council on Aging is very pleased with this type of arrangement now, because there is more of an autonomy in a sense that they have the ability now to bring forth recommendations. The decision making and the direction is a lot faster. There is a strong sense of communication that they appreciate and the minister appreciates, so there is the decision making and the direction can be a lot more immediate in a sense of trying to get a resolve on it.

The idea of bringing forth spending Estimates for consideration is now a lot more easy. The turnaround time, as to programs or initiatives that they feel may be something we should look at, is a lot faster. In essence, we are making a commitment to go to the people and to consult with the people on a much, much more readily basis through the arrangement that is now there for the Council on Aging, and they are reporting back to the minister.

It gives the impression and the reality of decision making and being part of the consultation with not only the Council on Aging but the general public, people in general. The fact that we have people that are not only urban and rural, but we also carry on meetings in the rural area, so the minister gets an immediate response back if there is a program or a position that we feel may be new, of a nature that we need input into it, and the people are able to comment on it.

The turnaround time, the whole situation is quite exciting in the sense that the contact is much more readily. Being involved with a large department like the Health department, just because of its vastness and the bureaucracy involved with it, a lot of times decision making takes a long, long time. The access to the minister is not readily available as it is through the present situation, so I think overall the transfer to the minister and the directorate is of tremendous benefit. The board has responded in the way of being much more aggressive in their attitude of accomplishment and their objectives of their role of responsibility.

I have had the opportunity to meet with the members of the board already on a very casual basis, and they expressed their willingness and their enthusiasm to work with the new minister. I look forward to a lot of their input and the programs that they will be initiating and trying to work toward a better understanding between us.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, if I were a gardener and I have a garden to tend and I need some water, I have access either to a tank which is empty or to another tank which is full, and I have a choice where it hits my pipeline. The one which is empty is direct and the one which is full of water is indirect. Which one is the better choice for me? Go to the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Reimer) who has no budget, no authority to spend, or go to the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) who has spending authority of over a billion dollars?

What I am saying, direct access is empty if the outcome is not foreseeable. There is no authority to spend or allocate money as Minister responsible for Seniors. I am saying there should be some kind of reform in the Seniors Directorate commensurate with the importance of seniors as a segment of our population. We are saying it will constitute from 25 percent to 28 percent of the population in Manitoba.

Why is there this kind of arrangement, transferring advisory boards from a department with spending authority and giving it direct access to another directorate which has no spending authority? What kind of arrangement is that?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I believe what the member for Broadway is alluding to is--he must remember that the Health department in its spending Estimates has just department after department that puts demands on the budget the Minister of Health comes forth with. The analysis of the budget decision in the Health department is extensive and exhaustive in regard to where the priorities of spending go.

The member is well aware of the amount of time and effort that this government puts in health care and our commitment to health, which, as he noted, has increased under our government since the '80s to 1995, to over $1.8 billion, where it now takes up, as a percentage, the highest percentage of any government in Canada for spending toward health care. Health care is and still remains a very high priority within our government. We are committed to continue to provide that type of service, and the demands on it will be continuous and will be ongoing as to where the money is spent.

With the aging population, as the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) has indicated, becoming more and more sophisticated in its demands and more acknowledgeable as to what it is expecting out of its lifestyle and its ability to influence policy and decisions, they are recognized as a very valuable and tremendous resource for the decision making that governments go through.

Being involved with a large department like that, the councillor would still have to go through the minister for any type of spending that they are requesting. The minister has to go through the same type of process that any type of department goes through, whether it is the Department of Urban Affairs or the Department of Rural Development or the Department of Agriculture. They all have to bring forth their priorities as to where they feel the funding should be going. With a large department like Health, you can see that the priority lists become quite exhaustive and quite lengthy as to where money should be going for the spending of any type of dollars that the government brings into being for health.

The ability to be in closer contact to the government is much more readily available when the Council on Aging has direct access and direct reporting to the minister, which it has now set up through the structure that was initiated in 1994, so that the reporting is to the minister. The minister can then go forth, as all ministers do when the budgetary process is being prepared, and make a strong case on an individual basis for his or her particular department. The strength of being involved with this department is the access to decision making and is a lot easier and a lot swifter through the present system of being involved with a large department like Health, which is the largest department in our government and takes up over 37 percent of our budgetary items.

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The availability of Estimates through that of monies are very demanding just as every department is, but in Health the priorities and their direction of priorities have always been met, where we are recognizing that the aging population is becoming more and more involved with the Health department. The coverage that we present to the aging population has been a priority in the sense of the home care that we have increased the budgeting for, the fact that there are more and more home care beds made available. I believe there are over 500 new home care beds that are going to become available in the next short while.

We have increased our budget on home care to, I believe it is over $90 million, so that the co-ordination and the complementary services between what the seniors would bring forth through the directorate and what the Health department is bringing forth on their own initiative complement each other. The access and the co-ordination that the Council on Aging can bring to the minister is much more directive in the ability to satisfy these types of need that they feel are important.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, it says basic principle of public administration, that in the creation of governmental unit. When you give any governmental unit the responsibility for anything, you must also give it commensurate authority in order to be able to carry out that responsibility.

Now the way I heard the minister review the mandate of the Manitoba Council on Aging, it will review projects and programs in public consultations with the members of the general public. So it will be reviewing projects, programs, but whose projects, whose programs? It will be the program of the spending department, the Department of Health. It will not be a program of the Seniors Directorate because it has no program, no substantive program.

So what is the point of transferring this unit without this corresponding authority? An authority implies that it must also have some budgetary spending authority and power to carry out the projects and programs that it should be reviewing.

If we consider the Department of Health as the table of the master with all the goodies there, can we not have at least some crumbs falling from the master's table given to the Minister responsible for Seniors?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, one of the things, as I mentioned--I am going to repeat myself--is the enjoyment I am going to have working with the member for Broadway. He has a very enjoyable way of not only asking questions, but his astuteness and his background is an attribute, I think, that is the envy of a lot of members because of his background.

I will point out to him that the Council on Aging is just that. In the interpretation of the Council on Aging, we are talking about aging not as an end product but as a continuum. We have people who are on the board, as I mentioned, five or six of them, five members, who are in their 40s, so the Council on Aging is just that. It is a council to look at aging all along through our spectrum and our continuum of life.

Now what it will do is not only look at just health. The member for Broadway is concentrating on health, which is very important, and there is no doubt about it, that is a very important part of the end product, if we want to call it that, of the aging process, where health becomes a very prominent and a very predominate part of our lifestyle, of our life process if you want to call it that.

But there are other things that are involved with aging, and that is the younger people and their attitudes and their directions that they would like to go. You have the overlap of other departments that will get involved with the aging process, if you want to call it that, and those are people who are within the Recreation department, people who are involved with the various other departments within the government that can overlap, whether we are talking about Family Services, or we are talking about Education because education also can be part of the aging process in terms of what people are looking at and people looking into the ability to improve themselves. So all these various types of aspects will play a part of the decision making which the council will look at.

So health is a very, very prime consideration in aging, and there is no doubt about it. I think the member has recognized that, as I do, too, but we have to look at all the various aspects of aging and how they can be incorporated into the decision making that is made available through the directorate. So this gives the minister the ability to not only look at the health aspect of aging, but it gives the minister the opportunity to look at other aspects of involvement by the seniors, whether it is through recreation possibly or through programs facilitating, through information programs.

I mentioned briefly a video tape that was made for financing on aging and some of the availability of what seniors can look for in their financing packages, and we have also come out with brochures on various areas regarding elder abuse and other packages. So the programs and the projects that the Council on Aging can get involved with are related to a lot of the things that I have mentioned already.

Mr. Santos: All the more, the minister confirms what I have been saying.

If it is not only health but also recreational activity, also educational activity, then some new initiatives and innovative programs can directly be formulated by the directorate for Seniors. If the directorate for Seniors is not given by cabinet or the Premier (Mr. Filmon) any power to spend at all, then it will all be for naught. All this effort, all this direct access, all this input will be for nothing unless it is given authority, if it is given responsibility to take care of all these areas of activities, not only in matters of health but in matters of education, in matters of recreation. All of these involve some kind of program spending. That is what I have been saying all along.

How does the minister react to this suggestion?

Mr. Reimer: The member for Broadway keeps bringing back the spending authority and the ability to have money. We have to remember that spending money and having the authority to spend money does not necessarily mean that things are better or that there is a newness involved because there is money that has been spent on it. A lot of things that can happen are because of information, an exchange of information, an exchange of ideas, the ability to resource each other in a sense of our common goals and our common aspirations as to what we feel is the best way to solve problems.

A lot of times problem solving has no monetary involvement with it. It is just a matter of communication and a willingness to learn from each other, to correspond with each other in a sense of looking at commonality of goals and the influence that we can have within our own parameters of authority. Authority really is utilized as a sense of coming to an understanding of agreement on various projects and programs.

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The member for Broadway mentioned that the programs and proposals have to have a monetary value to them. Spending money really does not mean that the problem is solved or that there is a resolve to it, because if anything, we spend--if that was the goal, when we look at the amount of money that we spend in health care, as outlined by the member for Broadway and how we have increased that spending since we have taken over and also how he has alluded to the fact that we have increased our spending in Pharmacare and the drugs, this would be a solution to a problem.

In essence, there are still problems out there. There are still concerns. There are still areas that need attention and direction. It is something that is a constant all the time for a resolve.

One of the biggest things is the ability to communicate with each other, the ability to bring forth issues, to discuss a commonality. We can feed off each other's knowledge in a sense, as the member for Broadway has indicated, that knowledge at times is very powerful, and it is the sharing of it that makes us all a better person in our daily lives and in our lifestyles. I compliment him in his awareness and in his astuteness as to saying that you know regarding that the whole body is something that has to be catered to in a sense.

One of the things that we can utilize as a resource is our minds. Our minds are tremendous machines in the sense of what they can come up with and their ability to problem solve and to come forth new ideas. As the old adage, that I believe has been utilized from time to time, says, a day without learning is a lost day, because we go through life learning all the time.

A great way to continue progress and to continue with a resolve is to share with each other, to be able to put away the partisanship that we sometimes get involved with regarding the philosophies of our governments. The ability to communicate with each other and to share in problem solving is not only good for ourselves but it is good for our people that are around us so that we can benefit from these type of things.

The member is right in a sense of saying that we should have the ability to make decisions, but I do not think that making decisions that necessarily revolve around the spending of money means that the decision is the right decision. I think the decisions that are made a lot of times just because of the common front towards a problem, and the ability to solve it through discussion and through consultation and through the ability of a board or a commission and the parameters that they are endowed to make brings forth just as good a direction as if money was involved with the final input or the only input as to how we solve problems.

Money, as the member has mentioned, is in a short supply. It only comes from one pocket. There is only one taxpayer in a sense. We as guardians, if you want to call it, of the taxpayer's dollar have to be astutely aware of where the money is going and the priorities of spending. We do not have the ability to just go to the bottom of this building and pull out another sackful of hundred-dollar bills. We only get them from one area, and that is from the taxpayers or from the revenue that is generated by this government.

The fact that all governments, as he alluded to earlier, especially the federal Liberal government, and their attitude towards their budgetary restraints and their slashing of the budget to our primary concerns of health care, education and family services is something that we are going to have to try to bring resolve to and make decisions to. Hopefully, with his understanding, and the understanding with the opposition parties, this kind of resolve can come through in an amicable manner, and we can make forth that Manitoba is not only a better place to work, to raise a family, but to look forth for our children.

There are a lot of strong parameters that we can work within, and one of them is the consultation process, so money is not necessarily the object that we should be looking at.

Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, I am not exalting the importance of money per se. Money is only a means to an end.

I understand the minister's statement that money is in short supply, and it is getting more and more meagre in terms of availability, but it is also a fact that the government as a whole takes care of the population as a whole, the population of society. If a segment of the population is increasing in number, then correspondingly that department of government, that unit of government serving that particular segment of the population should be getting its fair share of this authority.

Nobody can run projects and programs without resources. Resources involves hiring of personnel, setting up organizations, acquiring of information, acquiring all the expertise and skill of people, setting up communication systems, all the discussions he was talking about.

Tell me if any unit of government can undertake any of these activities without budgetary spending authority. Could they?

Mr. Reimer: The member brings up some very, very interesting points there in his commentary regarding the budgetary restraints and the budgetary commitments not only within this department but through all departments. It is very important to notice that one of the objectives regarding the seniors is its independence and its ability to foster that type of independence within the seniors community.

Independence is a very important and a very contributory factor to a way of life. If the person in the elderly position is made more independent and is able to think as an independent person, it gives them that sense of contribution that they have within themselves so that they can be part of a solution and part of a contributory force to any type of program that they become exposed to, and the fact that they can then be part of a discussion group, they can be part of a decision-making policy.

All these types of things are not only good for the group itself but good individually for their own type of management of their lifestyle and their direction as to what they feel they are looking at so that they can go through the consultation period, whether they are through meetings or one on one, that the government becomes aware of what their priorities are. Because all government departments deal within the framework of people, the various aspects of people and the various aspects of the aging, if you want to call it, the various departments on an individual basis will become aware of this continuity of problems.

They do not just blossom or are in one particular area. These are situations that all departments would recognize whether it is the Department of Environment, the Department of Family Services or all these things. They are all exposed to this type of overlap of concerns. The quality of life and the continuum of needs are something that all departments become aware of because we are dealing with people mainly within government because that is what government is. It is a government to be involved with people so it is something that is an ongoing process.

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Mr. Santos: Mr. Chairperson, I have to clarify what I am driving at. There is only a limited amount of resources available to government, either we talk about federal or provincial or city it does not matter, any level of government, but there are departments of government, subdivisions. Each of these subdivisions takes care of certain areas of human activities depending on its importance, and in the course of history some departments would be in the ascendancy increasing in power and authority. They will build up their empires and so on, but it should be on the basis of necessity and need and on the basis of the numerical number of population being served.

If we say that senior citizens in any territorial area of society, whether it is a province or a nation, are increasing in number, I think it is only fair and just that the corresponding authority also gravitate towards the department serving those segments of the population. What we are saying is that the proportionate resources of government should be distributed in such a way that there will be fairness and justice according to the service that they will be rendering to which kind of segment of the population will be needing those services. Very logical. The greater the number of citizens to be served, the greater should be the allocated resources of government to that particular unit of government, and this is what I have been batting for for the Seniors Directorate. Does the minister agree or disagree?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I think the member for Broadway has brought forth some interesting observations on his part as to the role of what the so-called power of the Seniors Directorate or the Minister responsible for Seniors is, but I should point out to him that the role is to co-ordinate and to work on policies regarding seniors so that we of the Seniors Directorate and the department have the ability to be aware of what other departments are doing and to co-ordinate and to be aware of the implications of these policies on seniors.

It becomes a much more focused area of deliverance when it is within the existing parameters because, within these parameters, there is the ability to be aware of the other departments and what their programs are and what their emphasis is and how it will affect seniors. It becomes more of a strong conduit and a funnel of information that the minister can access because of its mandate to identify the areas of opportunity within the government and the programs and the policies and the institutions to accommodate this structure of aging, which I have mentioned, which is an ongoing process that starts from the day we are born actually in a sense.

We are then starting to go towards an aging population. The public awareness and the understanding of the aging process is a very important part. The council has the ability to relate that type of scenario to not only the interest groups that are affecting government but they can also influence government in these types of programs and the directions that they are going.

The projects and the programs and the proposals that come forth, it is a conduit for not only what they feel is important but what the government is looking at and the various departments. It is not only the Health Department that is involved but the various other departments, whether it is even through Highways and things like, there is an overlap of the aging population as to how things will affect them.

All of these things are brought into effect through the Seniors Directorate and her staff in trying to keep on top of where there are areas of concern. Then the input to the minister becomes much more focused when the minister can then table some of these studies or some of these proposals and that the contact, as a direct basis through the Council on Aging, gives the minister the ability to be on top of things a lot quicker and at a lot more ready pace of involvement.

The conduit to government and to decision making, as the member mentioned, the budgetary process in which all items are looked at in a very critical and a very analytical way and the priorities of spending are looked through not only this department but through all departments so that there is, you know, a direction of need in that.

The council really has got a very, very positive and a very contributory aspect of what they can and what they cannot contribute to the decision making. I look forward to working with these people because I know that they are very enthusiastic and a very contributory body of people, as I mentioned, from various aspects of Manitoba. So I will get the flavour of concerns from not only the large urban area of Winnipeg but from the various areas across Manitoba, whether it is in the North where there was a need and a certain awareness and to all the various aspects of Manitoba so that the minister gets a very good overview of the various areas of concerns that they feel should be addressed.

I feel that this is a very, very positive aspect in reporting back to the Minister responsible for Seniors because the emphasis that the government put on redirecting it out of a huge, huge department like Health and now being involved with this department is a very positive aspect of the decision making and the ability to make change, which the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) is saying should be part of the mandate.

Mr. Santos: If the Department of Health has become so huge that it does not know anymore what is going on and therefore is not being efficient anymore because of the burden of being large--and communication of problems, the larger the department is--and now it is parcelling out some of these responsibilities to other units like the Seniors Directorate, so it gives away one of its units, the Manitoba Council on Aging to the department responsible for Seniors, the Seniors Directorate. What I am saying is that it should not only give the unit itself, it should also give a corresponding portion of its authority as well as power to spend money related to the function of the department. If it were not so, that would be an empty gesture.

As I have said, maybe 50 years ago there was no Department of Environment, but because of changes in society the Department of Environment has now become a major department of government. I am saying the Seniors Directorate is bound and destined to be a major department of government. If it should be receiving units, units from other major departments, it should also be receiving proportionate spending authority and allocation, proportionate decision-making authority to formulate projects and program activities proportionate to its responsibility.

That is what I have been saying all along, to the honourable minister, with due respect. I suppose that cabinet will discuss this, and we will see, because if you have a segment of the population, 25 percent, and you ignore them and you have no power to create projects and substantive program activities that are to their benefit, this will be a segment of the population that will no longer be supportive of any existing government.

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I am saying the Seniors Directorate is destined to be a major department. It should start parcelling out some of these resources, no matter how meagre they are, given the significance of the segment of the population that is being served by this particular department.

The importance of a department is measured by its ability to influence social reality, to change existing human situations, to improve conditions of people. If it has no budgetary authority to do that, the department is ineffectual as a social agent of change. You are saying it is simply to co-ordinate all this, to co-ordinate. That means it is a subsidiary department. It is not a department having integrity of its own. Mr. Minister, through you, Mr. Chairperson, I am saying that corresponding authority should go with corresponding responsibility being assigned to the Seniors Directorate.

Let us take the eye examination, for example. The rule now is that you can only have covered eye examination expenditure if it is done only once every two years. That is the rule laid down through the Department of Health. There is now a rumour that that will even be abolished. There will be no more eye examinations covered by any insurance, covered by medicare or other program. This affects senior citizens primarily and directly.

If you are in the group of 65 years or older and 24 percent of that group had some impairment about vision, those who are more or less in the blind or near-blind category, they do not have the necessary assistance and aid in order that they can see. If the Seniors Directorate had no authority to create preventative measures in order to prevent this loss of vision among the aging population, and it has to depend on some other department that makes certain rules within the mandate of the Seniors Directorate, is the Seniors Directorate effective then in protecting the interests of senior citizens?

What is the government's position, I would like to ask, the minister's position with respect to this eye examination, a looming problem now for senior citizens?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) has mentioned in his earlier discussion there regarding the transfer of the responsibility from the Health department to where it is now under the Seniors Directorate. I should point out to him that, when it was reporting strictly to the Minister of Health, it did not have spending authority even when it was involved as an advisory council to the Health department. So there was no taking away of authority by the transfer from the Health department to the Minister responsible for Seniors when it was done in May of 1994.

The member seems to feel that in its prior life, if you want to call it, when it reported to the Minister of Health, there was a spending authority involved with it, but there was no such authority or delegation of power to the board at that time either. At that time, it was used as a resource board to identify areas of opportunity within the government in adopting its policies and its programs. So it still did not have that type of authority. When it transferred to the Seniors Directorate, the funding authority was not there as it is now. So there is not that perception that they were in a position to allocate funds in the Health department and then it was taken away because they were now transferred to the Seniors Directorate.

What was of more significance was their ability of access to a direct minister in the reporting of their functions. In their reporting of functions and recommendations under the Health department, they were reporting to a staff person who reported to another staff person type of thing and there was that chain of hierarchy or chain of command, if one wants to call it, that they were put under the Health department, whereas now they have direct access to the minister.

The minister can respond in a very ready manner to the Council on Aging, and they have the ability then either to change or to make suggestions or to come back with a discussion. We can sit around and they can bring forth their views and viewpoints, and, as mentioned, it also serves as a conduit for the minister then to go back to the Council on Aging with programs or suggestions or possibly initiatives that are affecting not only the department of seniors but other departments, that the Seniors Directorate becomes available with regard to programs or initiatives that are brought through the other departments.

So they can go back to their various communities and talk about it and discuss it, and the resources that come through with the discussions are then channelled back through the committee to the council back to the minister. That two-way dialogue becomes much more effective and much more efficient because of the contact, and the reliability of information is much more astute. The contents of what are brought forth can be acted on in a much more ready manner, and the availability of getting access right through to the minister is much more satisfactory in that sense.

The member mentioned the modifications to the eye examination benefits, but there has been no recommendations from the Medical Services Council as to what would happen. When the recommendations are received, naturally, these are something that have to be discussed not only by myself through the Minister of Health but of concern to the various aspects--this is another good example of where there will be consultation regarding what the ramifications are and what the directions are.

Through the Seniors Directorate, that department there will be on top of any type of new initiatives that are brought forth regarding seniors. It acts as a very close sounding of propositions or proposals or programs, and the availability to be on top of any type of controversy or possibly a misdirection or a misinterpretation of the direction is much more instant in a sense because of the contact that they have to the minister.

The overall structure, I think, is of a very positive nature of making decisions, and the minister can make decisions on a much more ready basis because of the fact that they have the ability to access the minister and bring forth any type of recommendations, whether a recommendation is a good one or a bad one or it is controversial or there is need for more discussion and more input and more availability of resources. The Seniors Directorate, then, has the ability to go back out and ask various departments, not only the Seniors department but various departments within all avenues of government as to what it will affect.

So there is a very positive movement and motion that is created because of the Council of Aging and the Seniors Directorate, and the enthusiasm of the staff at the Seniors Directorate as to how they will pursue these things and work on behalf of the seniors.

These are some of the things that we are very, very proud of, the way the Seniors Directorate has responded to these concerns that the people have brought forth. I am looking forward to this type of optimism and enthusiasm in the department to be contagious, if you want to call it, within all the departments, because I feel that the people who are working there have got that ability to generate that for us.

Mr. Santos: Honourable minister, I would like to clarify. I am not saying that an advisory body like Manitoba Council of Aging be given direct spending of budgetary authority. I am saying the minister to whom this body has a direct access, the Minister responsible for Seniors, should have in his own directorate, in his own department, a pool of resources so that all the recommendations and projects, if they have merits, can be initiated right in his own department. This is what I have been saying all along.

The Department of Health is responsible for the health of all citizens. The Seniors Directorate is responsible for the health of seniors particularly. But I am saying that since a portion of the responsibility of the Department of Health had been parcelled out and given to the Seniors Directorate, then correspondingly the corresponding proportionate amount of resources should also be parcelled out and given to the Minister responsible for Seniors.

That is the only logical way I could see. Generally departments are accountable and responsible to the clientele groups that they serve. The Ministry of Health is primarily accountable and responsible to the health providers, the medical doctors, the nurses, the other groups in society. They provide input to decisions of that department. The same thing with Seniors.

Seniors provide input to the Seniors Directorate, and if the input that they provide to the Seniors Directorate ends up in no particular project that the Minister responsible for Seniors can implement because he has no such authority, what good is that for the seniors of this province? The same thing with mobility of senior citizens.

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The minister rightfully says, money is not everything. You just do not throw money to a problem, and it solves itself. Money, as I said, is only a means. If it is used for a purpose for which it is supposed to be intended in a rational way, then it will alleviate human condition and help the citizenry live a fuller, more satisfying life.

The directorate responsible for seniors is supposed to improve the lot of senior citizens. That is its mandate, not merely to co-ordinate. It has a direct responsibility to a significant portion of the population of this province, but unless it is given power, and I mean power to create projects and programs substantively, to affect the social reality of the lives of senior citizens, that will simply be a rhetorical kind of vacuum for information conduit, not really to affect the social reality and the quality of life of senior citizens.

Generally, senior citizens are well endowed, I am saying, I am just observing, because you have spent most of your life working in the industrial or private world or in the government. You have generally accumulated so that when, by the time you become senior, you have some kind of possession or asset that you could use. But there are unfortunate seniors also in our society, and they also need some kind of help and assistance. This is the moral function of government, the existence of government, to rectify the social inequity and social injustice in our institutional and social structure.

Many, many years ago the housewives were not able to work because that was the traditional function then of the family. They had no social security, they had no RRSP, they had no pension. Now they are now part of the seniors group. What would these seniors depend on? They will have to look to the Seniors Directorate for some kind of help and assistance.

When the Department of Health, the Ministry of Health dictated that when you fail to file on time all your claims for Pharmacare, all of your claim will no longer be recognized, there is some kind of unfairness and injustice done to people.

What about the blind seniors who are not able to distinguish the date? What about those who are suffering from memory losses and lapses? It cannot be justified anymore why they failed to file their Pharmacare claims.

The Seniors Directorate could rectify this if it has the power and the capacity to create and initiate programs that will inure to the well being of its clientele group, the senior citizens. But the Ministry of Health, because of its preoccupation with many other health problems in society may, in trying to save some money to do this kind of deadlines that would be confiscatory of one's refund right to drugs that you legitimately use, may have done some injustice, and the Seniors Directorate had no power to rectify that because it has no power to create programs.

We say that prevention is worth more than an ounce of cure. What does it say? An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Right? An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Let us say the Department of Health had all the powers, they have all the money. But it is only in curing because it is subjected to their clientele group; they want to have their fees, they want to do surgery--before they can charge a surgery fee, they have to do surgery, they have radiation, all this kind of expensive stuff. The Seniors Directorate, because it is creative and it is concerned with seniors and if the minister who happened to be occupying the position believes in wholesome medicine, they may be into a preventative kind of programs.

Health education programs involving no medical profession and therefore beyond the pay of the Ministry of Health but because it has no such power, it has no social authority, it cannot undertake good ideas that may come out of the Manitoba Council of Aging because the minister himself is not empowered to do so. There should be some re-examination of this kind of structuring in government. Cabinets should have a second look at the increasing responsibility of the Seniors Directorate and be given corresponding authority to rectify situations happening in Manitoba affecting senior citizens directly.

I have mentioned the Pharmacare problem for refund. I have mentioned the eye examinations, which is preventative. If you have continual, regular examinations, there will be no need for cataract operations; there will be no need for laser surgery, which is very expensive. There will be no need for all the conventional medical things that are being administered by the Department of Health. Would it not be more reasonable that in parcelling out this responsibility from the corrective kind of medicine, the traditional classical medicine to the preventive kind of dealing with potential illnesses, there would be a small transition there? Money will be used. It will be needed. The wheels of government will not turn without money. How do you pay all your personnel? How do you pay your civil servant? How do you buy all your supplies and equipment? Where do you get your information? All of this entails money.

I said before money is the root of all evil if the end is to get it; but if the end is to use it for the purpose of elevating a human situation, then it is a means to an end and it is a means that is essential. All governments should be, and units of government should be, given corresponding responsibilities and along with responsibility corresponding authority to rectify inequitable situations.

I conclude, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, and hope that the minister will bring this up when he comes into contact with his colleagues in government, that he needs more authority if he is to carry out and undertake his increasing responsibility.

Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: There being no more questions, 1. Seniors Directorate, on page 133, Item 1. Seniors Directorate $488,700--pass.

Resolution 24.1--RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $488,700 for Seniors Directorate, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

This now concludes the item of the department responsible for the Seniors Directorate.

The hour now being five o'clock and time for private members, committee rise.