Health Care System

Emergency Services

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, we have tabled minutes in this House from the emergency advisory working group that indicated that five minutes delay could definitely affect the quality of care in terms of the closure of community emergency wards in the evening.

Madam Speaker, over the last few days, we have heard informally and on the record people saying that this could, in fact, result, unfortunately, in the loss of life if somebody had to be transported an extra distance, an extra 10 or 15 minutes.

We have asked the government on a number of occasions to reconsider its decision. I personally asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) on nine occasions to deal with this matter, and I would like to ask the Premier now whether he can inform Manitobans that he will overrule and overturn the decision of his Minister of Health and reopen the emergency wards on a 24-hour basis in our community hospitals.

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Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, prior to the strike of the 42 emergency physicians and 14 pathologists, the doctors were asked to postpone any action related to withdrawal of services until the integrated emergency services plan could be finalized.

That did not happen, Madam Speaker. The physicians left their posts, leaving us to put together a contingency plan to look after the patients during the period of the labour disruption. The labour disruption came to an end, I am very glad to point out. The physicians, most of them, I believe, have returned to work. We have more capacity now back into the emergency services system, and we have until the end of the year to complete the development of an integrated strategy for metropolitan Winnipeg.

Flexibility exists during that interim period, Madam Speaker, and we will take the concerns raised by the honourable member and concerns raised by anybody else into account in the development of the plan prior to the end of the year.

Mr. Doer: That is the 10th question I have asked to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), and I would like to ask the Premier the 11th question. I would like him to start answering questions on behalf of his government. It was his election promise to maintain health care services, Madam Speaker. It is his government's decision to withdraw those health care services.

I would like to table the guidelines from the College of Physicians and Surgeons dealing with emergency ward hospitals, Madam Speaker, and in these guidelines, they specifically state that a physician should be on duty 24 hours a day. An emergency physician should be on duty 24 hours a day for urban and suburban settings that have greater volumes than 25,000 to 40,000 patients per year.

I would like to ask the Premier, why has his government not followed the guidelines of the College of Physicians and Surgeons in terms of their decision, their hasty decision, to close the emergency wards in community hospitals, Madam Speaker?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, when the strike came to an end, the resumption of services began during the daytime hours in all of the community hospitals, but we have on duty 24 hours a day, seven days a week, qualified and dedicated personnel at the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface Hospital.

Madam Speaker, we also have on the streets an ambulance system to ensure that patients can be taken to hospital in very short order, and on Friday of last week I ensured, Friday afternoon, that there were nursing professionals on duty 24 hours a day at all of the hospitals to deal with emergency cases that might present other than by ambulance or as a result of someone not knowing of the hours of opening at the community hospitals.

So we have made those resources available to the people of Manitoba, as well, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will not answer the questions. The Minister of Health does not answer the question in terms of the College of Physicians and Surgeons. He probably had not read the guidelines when he went ahead and proceeded to--if he has read anything about this issue, it is very disappointing in terms of his answer. He did not answer the question.

In light of the fact that Concordia Hospital had over 36,000 patients, in the latest report, at their emergency ward, and Grace Hospital, Seven Oaks, other hospitals, Madam Speaker, had well over the 25,000 people that the College of Physicians and Surgeons utilizes as their guidelines for urban and suburban hospitals, I would like to ask the Premier, will he reverse the decisions of his Minister of Health?

Will he overrule his Minister of Health and use the information from the College of Physicians and Surgeons, along with other people in the health care field who are saying that his government's decisions are putting patients' lives in danger, Madam Speaker? Will he therefore reverse the decision on behalf of the patients in those hospitals?

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Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, in a given year in the city of Winnipeg, there are some 275,000 visits to emergency rooms. We know from record keeping that some 4 percent of those cases are classified as emergencies. We also know that a further 43 percent are classified as urgent cases.

The honourable member neglects to mention that over 50 percent of all of the visits to emergency rooms are neither urgent nor emergent, Madam Speaker, so it is clear, and I think clear to everyone, even perhaps to the honourable member, that there is a capacity in existence that outweighs the demand that is there in the city and, indeed, in the province of Manitoba.

So, Madam Speaker, the honourable member, I suggest, no matter what action was taken by Manitoba Health and the facilities that are involved in the consensus that has brought us to this point, no matter what changes were brought, I am sure we could have counted on the honourable Leader of the Opposition to be there to condemn.

Grace General Hospital

Psychiatric Services

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, I have in front of me a memo that indicates that Manitoba Health will be considering the closure of the psychiatric treatment unit at Grace Hospital. This is another example of potential closure of psychiatric and outpatient services in a situation that is already, to quote memos that we have produced in this Legislature within the last several weeks, in a very crisis situation.

Will the minister today with respect to Grace and the other psychiatric closures do something that he has never done in the past? Will the minister today commit that not one single bed will be closed until two things are done: firstly, Manitobans have a chance to comment on this, and, secondly, alternatives are in place to take care of those individuals who are treated by these facilities, Madam Speaker?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) once said that he would be very pleased to defend the record of the Rae government in Ontario and engage in debate on that record at any time.

Now, Madam Speaker, the honourable member for Kildonan raises the issue of one hospital bed or one service or whatever. I wonder if the record of whatever it is in Ontario that they want to defend had that as a feature of their initiatives, if you can call them that, in the province of Ontario, where they closed 1,000 hospital beds. I ask the honourable member to do a little research on that and how much consultation was engaged in in the province of Saskatchewan where 52 rural hospitals were shut down, or, indeed, in other provinces where very significant changes are happening.

Madam Speaker, we have consulted well over 15,000 Manitobans in the development and implementation of the things that are going on in health in Manitoba. We will continue the process of consultation because we know that it is the consumer of health care services for whom all of us in this Chamber work.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the minister, who consulted no one prior to the closing of the ER wards, provide assurances to a woman I just got off the phone with just moments ago before Question Period, whose husband is a known pedophile at the Grace extended care hospital and who has been told that, if that ward shuts down, there is no treatment for her husband available? She is fearful for her family and for other members of the community as well as for him, should that ward be closed down.

Will he provide assurances that there will be services for that individual and all those individuals who are forced out of that ward, should that ward close, Madam Speaker?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the honourable member makes reference to planning going on at Grace General Hospital. The question is very much like questions he and his colleagues have asked about options being looked at at the Health Sciences Centre. I think they have raised questions about the same situation at Seven Oaks Hospital or other hospitals, indeed, which are looking to next year when some of the very, very, very significant cuts coming at us from Ottawa to transfer payments respecting health and post-secondary education will take effect.

There was not very much notice given to this country by Finance Minister Martin prior to his February 27 budget which told us that we would be facing very, very significant challenges.

Grace General Hospital is part of the team, Madam Speaker, and they have to look at options available to them. No option of the kind being raised by the honourable member today has been approved by Manitoba Health, nor will it be approved by Manitoba Health unless we can answer appropriately the kinds of questions the honourable member and others would be asking.

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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister: Will the minister today assure this House that those individuals who are receiving treatment at the Grace Extended Treatment Unit, including the gentleman who is a pedophile, will he guarantee that every one of those people will have service now and in the future if the government goes ahead with its plans, and they are the government's plans, to shut down that ward and psychiatric outpatient treatment at Health Sciences Centre, as well as keep the emergency ward shut?

Will the minister provide assurances that those people will have the kind of treatment they need and deserve in the province of Manitoba, Madam Speaker?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, the honourable member knows well and has on occasion actually commended this government for our work in the area of mental health services. Certainly, members of the Liberal Party in this House have done so, as well. The mental health reform plans have been working well and are providing far more appropriate services for recipients of mental health services.

But on the question of Grace General Hospital specifically, Madam Speaker, the honourable member knows very well that hospitals are governed by autonomous boards and their own administrations working closely, I acknowledge, with Manitoba Health, and so Grace General Hospital, like every other hospital in Manitoba, has to look at the best ways to deliver the services that are required in the community.

Grace General Hospital, like other hospitals, works with the communities that they serve, and we will be looking at their budget with a view to ensuring that services are appropriate to the needs that exist in the communities.

Youth Crime Intervention Team

Gang Surveillance

Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

To better protect the public and provide swift consequences for the relatively few number of youth who are committing most of the serious offences, it is critical that there be a multiagency surveillance of these youth, as a unique model in Brandon is now showing with the surveillance of 40 identified high-risk youth through a computer linkup.

The minister said on Thursday that her so-called Winnipeg Youth Crime Intervention Team established in February of '94 to, as she promised, step up surveillance of youth gangs and high-risk young offenders has been, in fact, conducting such interagency surveillance.

My question to the minister: Would she--regrettably the only Attorney General in the history of this province to be called a liar by the RCMP--now reconsider the statement she made here on Thursday, retract it and admit that there has been no team surveillance by this group?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the surveillance which was set up through the nine-point plan is a sharing of information among educators and police officers and Justice officials, certainly where possible, recognizing that each of the participants does have some requirement of confidentiality. I am also aware of some of the good work being done in other parts of the province, and I am very pleased to continue to support that work.

Madam Speaker, this government has taken very significant steps in dealing with youth crime and violence. The member across the way has been wrong before in the accusations that he has made, and it seems to me he continues to make guesses about what is happening.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister now wish to dig herself deeper and describe, as she promised in this House in May of 1994, the general surveillance strategy? For example, is it by a special computer program, as in Brandon? How many youths is the team tracking? How many agencies have signed on, and who are the agencies?

Mrs. Vodrey: The member is trying to take a model which he is aware of in one part of the province and put it as a model in the city of Winnipeg, for instance.

Madam Speaker, I have told him I am very pleased to know about other programs which are available across this province, but, no, it is not my practice in this House to divulge either specific security measures which are in place or methods by which we deal with security matters in this province.

The member across the way has in the past really been very interested in me giving all the information to people who would engage in criminal activity in this province. That is just not productive.

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Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, instead of pretending that this is somehow the CIA we are talking about, tell the people of Manitoba whom they are to believe, this minister or her senior policy analyst, Mr. Glen Lewis, who in his written description of the group's efforts does not even mention surveillance, or Sergeant Ron Hodgins of the City of Winnipeg Police Services' street gang unit, who is a representative on this team and who says, there has been no surveillance and there will be none?

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, it reminds me very much of the major gaffe the member across the way made in describing the youth gang line last week when he was wrong there. He continues to try and cite individuals, and he has been wrong every time.

Madam Speaker, I am informed that there is a sharing of information. The member has asked about specific computer programs. I have not spoken about those. I have, however, from the very beginning spoken about the sharing of information which we believe is important in the gathering of information to understand what is happening in terms of street gangs and eventually prosecutions where criminal activity has occurred.

Kelly Sawchuk

Community Living Program

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Family Services.

Before the election and on March 24, the Department of Family Services developed a community-based living arrangement for Mr. Kelly Sawchuk, a young man of very limited mental capacity who has been in conflict with the law. Madam Speaker, now, six months after the election, the government has broken that promise, cancelled the supervision, cancelled the education and training plans for Mr. Sawchuk.

I want to ask the minister, will she tell us what options there are now for this individual other than in an adult jail or in the community without supervision?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does provide me in the House today with the opportunity to indicate that we tried our very, very best to put in place a plan that would work for Mr. Kelly Sawchuk, but given the fact that he breached his probation more than nine times in the six months that the plan was in place, we had to take into account community security in the decision that was made to cancel the program which was not working.

Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, will the minister tell us what her response has been to a new proposal she received last week, and I can table that, for continuation of the 24-hour proctoring, which six short months ago she believed was essential for both Mr. Sawchuk and the community?

Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I would indicate to the House and to Manitobans that if, in fact, the 24-hour plan that was put in place at considerable cost, which was broken--probation was broken nine times in the six months that that plan was in place. I think the issue of public safety and security is of utmost importance.

Misericordia General Hospital

Bed Closures

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

Recently, I was faxed an invitation to attend a rally coming up at the Misericordia Hospital, and it says, issues to be discussed include upcoming bed closures, erosion of quality care and closure of the Emergency Department overnight at this particular hospital.

My question to the Minister of Health is, how many health care beds are being closed at the Misericordia Hospital?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, each and every hospital, as I said to the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) in my previous answers, will be looking at its budget for the upcoming year and also, indeed, attempting to live within the resources that they have for this fiscal year, as well. That has been and will remain the way that hospital operations have to conduct their business.

But, Madam Speaker, we are asking all hospitals, in making decisions about any changes, that they bear in mind the concern that we have, and that is that patient care in all decisions be made the No. 1 issue, the No. 1 priority issue for consideration when making decisions. There are other considerations, things like shift changes and bumping and administrative rules and bureaucratic issues, but the bottom line for all ought to be the issue of patient care.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Health acknowledge today that it is, in fact, in Manitobans' best interest to know exactly what this government's intentions are with bed closures at all of our hospitals, but the specific question is, how many beds are being closed at the Misericordia Hospital over the next short period of time?

Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I remind the honourable member that under the auspices of the KPMG consulting organization, we are extending our review of the hospital system from the tertiary review to a secondary and primary review, and part of that process involves forums.

To the honourable member I say I apologize to him and to the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) for the short notice that they got for the first meeting, but I have given them assurances that they will be given more notice in subsequent meetings, so that they can participate in those forums better than they were able to last time.

Those forums, Madam Speaker, will help us decide how best to integrate the services city-wide amongst all of the hospitals. This is a very, very important development, that we now have all of our acute care hospitals in the city of Winnipeg working together.

They certainly proved during the time that the physicians were not working that they could pull together and provide services for people in this province, and I expect to see that, as we go forward with the KPMG review that is presently underway which will also give us some insight as to the future of the medical system, the hospital system, in the city of Winnipeg.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

In an editorial comment from a letter that was written from the clinical director of the intensive care unit over at the general hospital, the director states, patients will die as a result, and that is a specific quote regarding emergency services.

Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier is, does the Premier feel confident that Manitobans' best interests have been taken care of, in particular the patients, dealing with emergency services, given the stature of this particular individual and the claims that he has made in an article in the newspaper?

Mr. McCrae: I appreciate the concern expressed by the--I believe it was written by a physician, the comment the honourable member is referring to, and I also take very, very seriously when someone out there makes that kind of a claim because, obviously, Madam Speaker, I would be as concerned as anybody if such a thing were a possibility or a reasonable expectation, so I would not want the honourable member for one moment to think we do not take comments like that seriously.

But we have to look at our whole system, and we have to work with everyone in it, and within that system, Madam Speaker, there will be people who hold varying opinions and make various projections about the future.

But I say, if the honourable member is as concerned as his repeated questions in this House indicate to me that he sincerely is concerned about the health of our health care system, I would invite him to help all of us by talking to his colleagues in Ottawa who are making life for Health ministers right across this country a very challenging experience indeed, Madam Speaker. I believe the honourable member is aware that in Manitoba alone, the reduction that we are going to see on an annual basis is a $220-million reduction from our partner in Ottawa.

Madam Speaker, if the honourable member could use his considerable powers of persuasion in making his voice heard amongst his colleagues and friends in Ottawa as well as he is doing here in Question Period, we might be very well served indeed.

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Sexual Offenders

Community Notification

Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, recently the Transcona-Springfield School Division sent home a notice with students advising families of an individual residing in the area who is listed on the provincial Child Abuse Registry. Parents and guardians were advised to call Child and Family Services with any questions that they might have. Calls to the school division and to Child and Family Services could not shed any light on this matter. The parents and the community at large have many unanswered questions relating to this matter.

My question is for the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh). Can the Minister of Education advise, is it the policy and responsibility of her department and the school divisions, when they are informed, to notify the families in the communities of dangerous sexual offenders residing in the community?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am not sure if the member is referring to the function of the community notification committee, which receives information either from Corrections, both Canada and Manitoba Corrections, about the release of a dangerous sexual offender still seen to pose a threat to the community, someone who has been unable or unwilling to participate in any programs within the institutions for their rehabilitation, or a report to the police from a member of the community, and the police then investigate and upon their investigation make that referral to the community notification committee which then examines the process.

If his question was regarding how the community notification committee which is the first of its kind in this country set up to provide advice to chiefs of police on notification about sexual offenders who are seen to still be a risk in the community, then that is how the committee works.

Mr. Reid: Madam Speaker, my supplementary question is for the minister responsible for child and family services.

Can the minister advise, is it the responsibility of Child and Family Services to notify the greater community or just schools when notified of a dangerous sexual offender living in the community, since the Minister of Education (Mrs. McIntosh) did not want to answer it?

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question. It is my understanding that the Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency has followed a policy in the past whereby they do notify schools and school divisions when a sexual offender is in their community.

As far as notifying the general public, I think the process that the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) has put in place is the process that would be followed to notify the entire community.

Mr. Reid: Will the Minister of Justice explain why the community notification advisory committee did not take the appropriate steps to inform the Transcona area community? The minister in her own press release stated, I believe families should be made aware when a high-risk sexual offender poses a danger in their community.

What of the other children in the community, Madam Speaker, whom the minister forgets to take into consideration with this committee, who do not attend the public school system and therefore were not informed that an offender was living in the community? What steps is she prepared to take?

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, the process is this. Where there is a concern by a member of the community or an agency within the community regarding the behaviour of someone who has been a convicted sexual offender, that concern should first of all be registered with the police.

The method of the community notification committee is a report to the police if the person is currently living in the community. It is then the police who will assess the issue based on their own methods of investigation.

If the chief of the police service then determines that there is a concern and a question about whether or not the community should be notified, then there is a referral to the community notification committee.

Madam Speaker, there were members of Child and Family Services and Justice and Police Services who participated in the development of the community notification protocol. That protocol is in place, and for the information of the people of Manitoba, I am glad to state again exactly how that process works for the community.

Provincial Sales Tax

Collection Process

Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My question is to the Minister of Finance.

Why does this minister continue to allow corporations to hold sales tax money, provincial sales tax revenue, as income? Why do they not collect this money quicker, so that taxpayers do not lose money as they have with $466,000 in uncollected money from Clancy's Ventures and many others?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I have had this discussion with the member for Elmwood before here in the House. We had a discussion at committee, Madam Speaker.

First of all, sales tax is not income to any business or any entity, and when we do a comparison of our collection process here in Manitoba, we stack up very well across Canada. When we compare what we have to write off on an annual basis, we write off one-quarter of 1 percent of our provincial sales tax, some $700 million in total collections, Madam Speaker, writing off just over $1 million.

I do indicate, Madam Speaker, that we take it very seriously. Everybody should pay their taxes, but when you are dealing with $700 million of sales tax, there are occasions, there are instances, when businesses go into bankruptcy, other problems arise, and debts are not paid unfortunately, but our collection process, our collection performance, compares very well right across Canada.

Mr. Maloway: Madam Speaker, to the same minister: Could he explain what principle this government uses in letting corporations like the Transcona Country Club get $55,000 behind in PST payments, while this provincial government is cutting social services to the poor?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I have just given the member some statistics in terms of our overall performance, writing off one-quarter of 1 percent of our total sales tax revenue of $700 million annually and indicating to him very clearly that we expect everybody to pay their taxes.

But, like any issue, Madam Speaker, there always is a balance. It is also not our objective and not our intention to put people out of business either. Sometimes situations arise where you have to have a payment schedule in terms of meeting that payment to the provincial government.

So I think there is an important balance to be struck there to be sure that we ultimately collect all of our taxes, and our performance is very good, Madam Speaker, but also to be sure that we are not out there putting businesses out of business and taking people out of employment opportunities.

Mr. Maloway: My final supplementary to the same minister: When is the minister going to start tightening up the collection procedures in this department that are allowing companies like Clancy's Ventures and the Transcona Country Club to be $466,000 behind in sales tax payments to this province and $55,000 as in the case of the Transcona Country Club? Why are they allowed to get so far behind?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I have already indicated very clearly that on an overall basis our performance is excellent here in Manitoba. [interjection]

Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) is suggesting there should be a corporate hotline or call line. Well, that opportunity does exist already. If anybody has information on any businesses, there is nothing precluding them from making contact with the taxation division or with Revenue Canada.

We have also enhanced our co-operation with the federal government in terms of combining audits, in terms of sharing of information, so we do take it very seriously.

I do fundamentally believe everybody should pay all of their debts, whether it is to the Province of Manitoba or any other debts that they have, but the reality is, if you are going to carry debts, there are going to be occasions when businesses either go bankrupt, people get into other kinds of financial difficulty, and it ends up that debts are not paid.

On an overall basis, I am very pleased with our performance here in Manitoba, but that is not to suggest that we will not continue to work hard at always improving our collections, Madam Speaker.

Mathias Colomb First Nation

Health Concerns

Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My questions are for the Minister of Health.

On Wednesday, we asked the minister to look into the impact of overcrowding in Pukatawagan on the health of community members. We have since learned that there are at least eight cases of TB at Pukatawagan, along with several cases of hepatitis.

Is the minister prepared to work with the band and have health inspectors sent to the community?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I remember when the water supply at Pukatawagan became a really big problem, the former member for Flin Flon and I worked very co-operatively, along with the medical officer of health for the province of Manitoba, and we were able to bring enough pressure on the federal government that the federal government was forced to carry out its responsibility.

It is a shame that it has to be done that way, yet that is what happened, and in this case, I am quite prepared to work with the honourable member and the community to carry out my responsibility.

Madam Speaker, what was brought about the last time was that we were able to force the federal government to do what it should have done long before, and maybe that is what we are up against here this time, as well.

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Mr. Jennissen: More specifically, would the minister be prepared to meet with the chief of the Mathias Colomb First Nation, along with band officials, to discuss this serious health issue today?

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to indicate to the member for Flin Flon that I will be meeting with the chief and council at 2:30 this afternoon following Question Period to offer the assistance of our department in dealing with some of their issues with the federal Department of Indian Affairs.

I can tell the honourable member that the problem stems, or from what we have been able to gather from discussions to date, has to do with the band preparing a proper financial management plan to deal with their deficit in housing to be able to get on with their next housing project.

We, as a government, are prepared to offer the financial assistance expertise of people in the Department of Northern Affairs on working with them to get their financial house in order, in order to be able to meet the requirements of the federal department.

University of Manitoba

Labour Negotiations

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the University of Manitoba is facing a labour dispute which will disrupt the lives of students, faculty, and put many research grants in jeopardy.

Madam Speaker, there have been many reports that indicate the important role, the major economic role, played by the University of Manitoba in the development of our province. This year, Manitoba did not even make the 10-best list for their report on business in terms of its research activities.

In the election, the government refused to commit itself to Target Ed's proposals, and I would like to know from the Minister of Education, is the government going to use this labour dispute as another experiment, as it did in the doctors' dispute, as a prelude to further cuts to the University of Manitoba, which will seriously harm the economic development of this province?

Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I am pleased that the opposition has finally seen fit to indicate that they are aware that there has been this situation evolving at the university and break their long-standing silence on the matter.

I would indicate to the member that he is presuming that events that have been tentatively slated for Wednesday will actually occur. I say to the member, the university administration and the university faculty association are bargaining with each other. They are bargaining with each other, not with the government of Manitoba, and they currently have a conciliator in there assisting them in their bargaining.

At this point, for me to be making comments on their interaction with each other, which does not involve the government, would be counterproductive.

Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister stop answering as the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) did all the way through the doctors' dispute and finally show some leadership and sit down with the parties and try her best to avoid what will be a very serious event for Manitobans and have serious harm for Manitoba's students, faculty and research?

Will she show some leadership and sit down with the parties?

Mrs. McIntosh: Just for clarification, Madam Speaker, am I to understand that the member is asking me to politically interfere in a potential strike situation or a collective bargaining situation?

I am trying to seek clarification. My understanding is the member is asking me, before any strike takes place, to politically interfere in the bargaining process that is taking place at the University of Manitoba. Is that the question that he is asking? It seems to me it is.

Could I get clarification on the question? Is he or is he not asking me to have political interference between those two parties which are currently bargaining without the interference of government?

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.

Committee Change

Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger) for the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey).

Motion agreed to.