Health Care System
Emergency Services
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).
Madam Speaker, for the last period of time we have been asking questions to the government's Minister of Health about the status of the community hospital emergency wards, and I do not know whether the Minister of Health did not have the answer or he wanted to not let this Legislature know the status of the emergency wards, but we certainly were not given straight answers to questions we raised this week.
Madam Speaker, there have been a number of public statements made that, in fact, the community hospitals have been notified by the provincial government that the emergency wards would be closed for a period of time late evening, early morning.
I would like to ask the Premier, what is the status of the community hospital emergency wards, and what is the status in terms of reduction of services for the public in the five community hospitals?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable Leader of the Opposition is aware that mediator Jack Chapman the day before yesterday made a report which has been extremely helpful to all the parties in resolving the labour dispute, but Mr. Chapman did recommend and all the parties have accepted that we forthwith get on with members of the Manitoba Health staff in conjunction with appropriate officials of the facilities and the Manitoba Medical Association and its members to immediately commence a full and complete review of the provision of emergency medical care.
We accept that and that has begun, that review. That work is underway. We expect to see the doctors returning to work very soon, perhaps as early as tomorrow, which will bring on stream even further capacity in our emergency services in Winnipeg, so that with that happening and the discussions going on with respect to the future of the hours of delivery of services at the various hospitals, we will have further to say as we go along with that process.
I do say, though, one thing that was a very positive aspect of the labour disruption was that rather than having seven institutions acting all independently one from the other--we have had seven institutions where their CEO, their medical staff and ambulance personnel, everyone working in a more integrated fashion, which we think bodes very well for the future, especially with the infusion of all that medical staff after the end of the labour disruption.
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Mr. Doer: Perhaps the Premier (Mr. Filmon) can clarify to the public and be very specific with the public on the status of the hospital emergency wards in the five community hospitals, Madam Speaker. I think the public is hearing various stories from hospital administrators, various decisions that are being passed on to those administrators from the provincial government, and I think the public is entitled to, for once perhaps from this government, straight answers to straight questions about the status of patient services.
I would like to ask the Premier--I will table some minutes from the emergency department review working committee, Madam Speaker, from 1993, a committee co-chaired by Dr. John Wade. This is a committee of people who deal with patients. It is not Mr. Chapman's report, who is, of course, a lawyer, and the committee states that: If a decision is made because of doctors to close these emergency wards, this group will indicate that this is not a medically sound decision.
The committee goes on to say: If the emergency wards were closed in the community hospitals, grave concern was expressed in making this type of move with the limited amount of dollars that would be saved.
I would like to ask the Premier, has he considered advice from the medical subgroups in the decision that the government has passed on to our community hospitals, and can he just tell the public what is going on for once, Madam Speaker, instead of bafflegabbing in this House?
Mr. McCrae: I believe Dr. John Wade, to whom the honourable member refers, is presently the Deputy Minister of Health in Manitoba, Madam Speaker.
There have been a number of reports dating back as far as 1990 that have told us all that we have a capacity in emergency services in Winnipeg which exceeds the demand that is there.
I think in light of all of the circumstances today, especially with the pressures being exerted upon us by the colleagues in Ottawa of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) and his colleagues here, we owe it to the population in Winnipeg and in Manitoba to spend every emergency services and every health care dollar very, very wisely.
I am somewhat encouraged, Madam Speaker, by some of the willingness that I have seen recently, and even over a longer term, on the part of people in the government and people in the facilities, the medical profession, nursing profession, to work together to put the patient first and to deliver the best possible and the highest quality services in Manitoba that we can within the resources that we have.
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Mr. Doer: I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a question dealing with this.
We have seen priorities of this government to spend taxpayers' dollars wisely. We had the infrastructure money for an arena that is not going to be built. We have contracts that are being paid for by this government. We have the Kenaston underpass that has proceeded, in the Premier's riding, with no underpass--and this cost saving is $1.6 million.
I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the subcommittee's report which indicates that bypassing an emergency department at a hospital and adding an extra five minutes to a call could affect the quality of care that a patient receives, is it his decision to put in jeopardy or potentially put in jeopardy the safety of Manitoba patients or people in our community areas who rely on these hospitals, to add that extra five minutes, and is it worth risking life or limb to save $1.6 million in terms of the decisions his government is making on these community hospitals in our communities?
Mr. McCrae: We cannot at this time confirm any figures the honourable member might use in terms of cost savings or cost related to any particular model that might be entered into in the near future, Madam Speaker.
The point is not the cost so much as it is to put the care of the patient first. The honourable member refers to an extremely important part of the equation, and that is, what is the safest thing to do?
The honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) raised with me yesterday a number of cases where he felt that there should be some review. I undertook to do that, but it would have been helpful if the honourable member for Kildonan had been a little more open in terms of details, so that we could get our review completed.
We have had a difficult time with that, Madam Speaker, but I can give a preliminary response from what I have been able to learn and that is that a preliminary review that we have conducted to this date suggests that each case the honourable member referred to, if indeed we are talking about the same cases, were responded to by ambulance, resuscitation measures were instituted at the site, other ambulance personnel with advanced skills attending, including the very highly trained paramedics, attempts to revive the individuals continued onsite, as is appropriate.
It is probable, but we are not yet able to confirm, that the time taken to transport the patients to hospital was the normal procedure and was not affected by the strike.
Health Care System
Emergency Services
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, most of what the minister said this afternoon is utter nonsense and clearly indicates he does not understand the issues.
My question to the Minister of Health: How can we have any confidence in anything this minister says when yesterday he was denying that emergency wards would be closed and ducked the questions? At the very time he was doing that, his Deputy Minister of Health, John Wade, was phoning hospitals and telling them that they had to shut down their emergency wards. How can we have any confidence in anything this minister says?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think that the honourable member is quite incorrect in paraphrasing or quoting me as saying something which I have not at any time said. Indeed, I have referred to past reports which have suggested the closure at least at nighttime of some of the emergency wards in this city.
Up until recently, I have not felt it appropriate to go along with such recommendations because I had not any experience on the matter, and the last month has shown the experience of some pretty dedicated people operating shorthanded who have been able to manage within the bounds of what we have been saying.
Now with the infusion back into the system of the emergency physicians and pathologists, we have even more capacity at our disposal. If that capacity is channelled in the right places, we can provide very good emergency services to the people of Manitoba.
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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health try to explain how it is by mere coincidence that on the very day the doctors' strike was being settled and the parties had agreed to settlement, his Deputy Minister of Health was phoning hospitals and advising them that, to quote the head of Grace Hospital: They had no choice but to close their emergency wards at night.
How can the minister explain that coincidence, other than it was government's plan throughout this entire strike and that is why they took a hands-off attitude throughout the whole strike?
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, with all due respect, I do not think the honourable member should be claiming any surprise. He has been asking questions about this since the beginning of the strike.
The honourable member, I assume, has also read the same reports that have been made available to everybody else about the overcapacity in the city of Winnipeg, so that it is not like he is surprised today and so is raising the question. He has been raising these questions for some weeks now. They are perfectly legitimate questions, but he ought not to be expressing any surprise.
One of the cases the honourable member referred to with even less detail than the others concerned a matter arising at Victoria General Hospital. I understand that what the honourable member was referring to was something that was simply some miscommunication somewhere along the line, because the patient to whom that matter refers is, I understand, alive and well.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I put those questions to the minister in writing and I would appreciate a response back in writing.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Kildonan was recognized for a final supplementary question. Please pose your question now.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier.
Will the Premier stop hiding from this issue and confirm what his Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) has obviously said today, that in fact they are going to close emergency ward hospitals at night at some of the community hospitals without public hearings, without input from the public and without an opportunity to review the effects of the strike?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will confirm that the Minister of Health, acting within his area of responsibility, is indeed doing the things that he has said today.
Foster Families
Rate Reduction
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, yesterday in this Chamber, we heard that Manitoba embodies the principles of compassion and generosity. Regrettably, the current Minister of Family Services is well on the way to giving us a reputation for being known for being heartless and cruel. This Minister of Family Services has tried to redefine the poverty line in spite of the fact that two parents and two children on city welfare earn less than half of the poverty line for Winnipeg. This minister has asked the Children and Youth Secretariat to address the issue of child poverty while she is taking the axe to the rates for food for children on city social assistance.
I would like to ask this Minister of Family Services, if she has any compassion left at all, how she can explain why the foster family rates in Manitoba have been cut by 6 percent recently?
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I would ask that my honourable friend ask Child and Family Services agency of Winnipeg for the reasons why, when they made the decision to reduce the foster rates.
Mr. Martindale: Can the Minister of Family Services then justify the lack of funding to Child and Family Services agencies, including Winnipeg, that have forced them to make these kinds of cuts, which is the third time in three years that this minister has forced reductions in the foster family rate?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for the question because it does provide me with the opportunity to indicate to all Manitobans that we have made a major commitment to children and families in the province of Manitoba.
Through our Child and Family Services agency in Winnipeg, there have been major increases year after year. We have covered their deficits on a yearly basis, so I reject any assumption that in fact we have spent less on children and families through our Child and Family Services system by this member.
Minister of Family Services
Resignation Request
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Will the Minister of Family Services, who is totally out of touch with the needs of children and families in Manitoba and who believes that all you need is love to feed children and put food on the table and who is trivializing the plight of 7,010 children on city welfare and now has forced a reduction in foster family rates, will she do the honourable thing and resign so that a new minister can put the needs of children first?
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, absolutely not. I will not resign. I believe that we as a government over the last number of years have put children and families first, and we will continue to do that.
It is fine to sit in the opposition benches and think that $1.5 million is going to solve the problem of poverty when we look at the Honourable Joy MacPhail in British Columbia, the Honourable Bob Pringle in Saskatchewan dealing with the same very difficult issues that we are dealing with today.
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Maintenance Enforcement
Credit Bureau Reporting
Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, two weeks ago when we asked the Minister of Justice to confirm that the maintenance enforcement legislation so urgently passed by this House this spring will not be in force until next year, the minister said, and I quote: "sections of the bill came into effect on Royal Assent such as reporting to the credit bureau. That, in case it has escaped the notice of members opposite, has really a great effect on those people who are, for instance, self-employed and should certainly encourage and provide a penalty for those who do not pay."
My question to the Minister of Justice is, would she now tell us when and how many of the approximately five and a half thousand parents in default on their maintenance payments have been reported to the credit bureau?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am aware the member across the way has been circulating some numbers from--I do not even know what year he is dealing with. Let me just reassure Manitobans again that we have brought forward legislation which we believe is the toughest in Manitoba.
But, Madam Speaker, the member across the way, I believe, has done what many members across the way do. They will ask a question, get up and answer it in the next question. So let me just remind the member the purpose of the legislation.
The legislation deals with enforcement. The other part that the legislation deals with, never dealt with by the other side ever, is the resources able to be attached. You can have all the enforcement measures that you want to have but if you do not increase the resources available, which this government has done through its new legislation, pension benefit resources, joint asset resources, then you can have all the enforcement measures you want but you still will not collect any money.
The bill that we passed deals with both parts, enforcement and resources, and we believe that it will make a difference to the women of Manitoba and anyone who is collecting a maintenance benefit.
Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister then confirm that over the course of the three months since the bill passed, only 100 defaulters, just 2 percent, have been reported to the credit bureau, which only occurred after our question? Does this 2 percent solution represent the government's commitment to custodial parents?
Mrs. Vodrey: I say to him, 2 percent of what? What figure is he using? Is he using a figure of people who are required to pay within this province? Is he using a figure which includes people who are required to pay who do not live in this jurisdiction and whom we depend upon other jurisdictions to enforce the maintenance order?
We are acting on the enforcement measures which are available, and we will be acting on the resources area that is available. We collect on 74 percent of the maintenance orders in this province where the payor lives here. Of those where we have been unable to collect, that is why we increased the resources available, Madam Speaker, so that we will be able to collect from people who previously were able to hide their assets.
Point of Order
Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, is there unanimous consent for me to answer the minister's questions?
Some Honourable Members: Agreed.
Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns does not have a point of order.
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Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, would the minister confirm what the district manager for the credit bureau tells me that for the future the minister plans to report only 100 defaulters a month to the credit bureau, which means that all of the current defaulters will not be reported until February of the next millennium.
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Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, the member flies high again. No, I will not confirm that.
Madam Speaker, I would just like to say that he should never lose sight, none of us in this Chamber should lose sight of the fact that many people do pay their maintenance--in fact, the system does work for many people--and that the system itself in its accounting process records as a default someone who is one day late. However, for the payor and the payee, sometimes there is an agreement to that being one day late because of the date of a payday.
So, Madam Speaker, the record of default that the member is looking at, and if he is trying to say of those people who are defaulting, all of those people should be eligible for reporting to the credit bureau, that is not necessarily the case.
Madam Speaker, I just would like to refer to an independent study done by a University of Manitoba criminology student survey which gave us some very important statistics about satisfaction in the Maintenance Enforcement Program--overall satisfaction of recipients, 79.4 percent; and satisfaction of the payors, 76 percent; satisfaction with the communication centre, 80 percent.
I believe the program is working and we will continue to work with it to make it do better.
Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, while Beauchesne's Citation 416 makes it clear that the minister may decline to answer a question, Beauchesne's 417 indicates very clearly that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.
The minister was asked a very specific question in terms of reporting of deadbeat parents who have not paid maintenance and was asked three specific questions.
If she does not want to answer any of those three questions, Madam Speaker, that is her choice, but she is now engaging in debate, and it is not answering the question. I would ask you to call the minister to order.
Madam Speaker: On the honourable member for Thompson's point of order, in my opinion, the honourable member for Thompson did not have a point of order.
Health Care System
Emergency Services
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.
I must start off by saying that there is a great deal of disappointment in the way in which this government has handled the whole emergency services crisis that was out there, and now that we have a government that appears to be wanting to reduce those emergency services in our community hospitals, I think that is with great disappointment.
My question to the minister: Because now he is going to be relying very heavily on the review of emergency services, will he or this government be prepared to make a commitment that no changes in emergency service hours will be taken into account until this whole review process has come to an end? Will he at least make that commitment to Manitobans today?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I think the only disappointment there needs to be, Madam Speaker, would be the disappointment of the people of Manitoba, who sometimes look to the honourable member and his colleagues for some leadership, and the only leadership they displayed was to insist that we legislate the doctors back to work which, I suggest to you, would have had a very unhappy impact in the workplace.
These are difficult enough times, Madam Speaker, in light of the massive reductions in transfers that provinces are receiving from Ottawa, without the honourable member trying to make matters even worse with some of his suggestions.
With respect to emergency services and the review that is being undertaken, I answered the questions put by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), and basically the answers that I gave to them would be the same as the answer to the question put to the honourable member now.
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Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Health, in terms of who is going to be the author of this emergency services report, given some of the response even Mr. Chapman had in the report from the mediator where it is very clear that this government does not have the confidence and trust from individuals or organizations such as the MMA and which the minister knows full well because the mediator pointed it out himself--[interjection] Yes, page 8, page 9.
Mr. McCrae: I am not sure I heard a question in all of that, Madam Speaker, but I would just remind the honourable member again that the mediator did say that we ought to proceed working together with appropriate officials of the facility, of the MMA and its members, and, no doubt, there will be others who will be consulted as well as we address this matter.
Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I will make it very clear so the Minister of Health can understand: Who is going to be heading the review of the emergency services and request for assurances that the public is in fact going to have input to this directly?
Mr. McCrae: Well, as the honourable member knows, there have been previous studies headed by Barer and Sheps and by Dr. Moe Lerner. Today, I know that Dr. John Wade, Deputy Minister of Health, has been directly involved in the discussions, so in terms of the review and its leadership, I think it is important to note that the Deputy Minister of Health is involved in that. If you want to identify somebody as the leader, I suggest that would be an appropriate person.
Division scolaire franco-manitobaine
Mediator's Report Release
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, there is a serious issue in the town of Laurier, where 38 children are attending school in the community hall under the auspices of the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine, while the Laurier school division under the Turtle River School Division houses 56 students and clearly has some excess capacity.
Madam Speaker, the parents in this--and it is a difficult situation--the parents have waited patiently for over a year at the request of Clayton Manness. They have now waited a long time at the request of this minister until her mediator reported.
I want to ask the minister today why she has refused to release that mediator's report to these parents who have waited so patiently for it.
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the mediator's report has not been asked of me directly, at any rate. It may have been asked of department officials. The mediator's report is a very simple, short report and the mediator has reported not just to me. The information has also been relayed to the parents. The information that they know absolutely was that the mediator was not able to have the two parties come to an agreement under his mediation. The two parties know that because they were the two parties involved.
Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, will the minister confirm then that I wrote to her on September 12 asking for a copy of that mediator's report and will she confirm again that she has not and will not release that report to the parents in that school division?
Mrs. McIntosh: Madam Speaker, I thought in the first question the member was asking about a request that was made to me by the parents of Laurier. If she is referring to correspondence between the member and myself, that is a different question.
But I repeat for the member's benefit that the mediator's report simply indicated that he was not able to bring the two parties to agreement under his mediation. We now have the situation back at the local level for local resolution. All due processes of law have been followed and the legally elected people in that area are now charged with the responsibility to make their legal decisions.
Government Action
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, could the minister tell us what steps she intends to take--and she has powers available to her under the act--to bring together what is a very divided community? These are families, these are cousins divided against each other.
What steps is this minister going to take to bring that community back together again?
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I cannot make a cousin love a cousin. I can only do what by law I am permitted to do and, by law, I have done all that I am permitted to do. I have put a mediator in place, as I am entitled to do under the law. I have examined that all due processes of law were followed. Every decision made has been made legally by the people legally elected to make those decisions.
There are alternatives and choices available for the duly elected trustees involved in this particular situation and therefore they have an obligation under the law to fulfill their legally given responsibilities to choose one of the alternatives available to them. This is not a situation where there are no alternatives for the elected officials to choose from.
Flin Flon General Hospital
Budget Reduction
Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Health.
Can this minister tell the House and the residents of Flin Flon the results of the Compensation Committee of Cabinet meeting yesterday on budget cuts at Flin Flon General Hospital?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member asks about, I assume he is asking--what? What the allotment or the budget for the Flin Flon Hospital will be for--what? This fiscal year, next fiscal year?
He is not very clear on what he is asking, but if he is asking another question relating to the implementation of the staffing guidelines which came down late last year, Madam Speaker, I have given answers. I will be prepared to find and give other answers for the honourable member if he has something specific to ask.
Layoffs
Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Specifically, how many bodies will be laid off at the hospital tomorrow?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, if notices have to be given to people at the Flin Flon Hospital as they grapple with the staffing guideline issues there, as has been done in other facilities, I hope they will do so with much more sensitivity than that displayed by the honourable member today.
Health Care System
User Fees--Northern Manitoba
Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): My final supplementary question to the Minister of Health: With the $4-million cuts to staff and patient care in northern hospitals, is the minister at least considering dropping the onerous $50 user fee this government has imposed on northerners?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would ask the honourable member and his colleagues who represent other communities as well in this province to review the staffing guidelines in detail, review the process that was used in arriving at the conclusions arrived at by the staffing guideline review committee and review also the sensitive way in which the hospitals and the government have attempted to deal with those staffing guidelines before he asks the kinds of questions that he asks today.
I ask him also to remember that the planning for northern Manitoba includes major enhancements, Madam Speaker, of mental health services. The people in the North have never had the mental health services they have today under any government previous to this one, and that includes acute psychiatric care at the hospitals.
Infrastructure Works Agreement
Rural Gasification
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, the announcement to use infrastructure money to expand natural gas to rural Manitoba certainly got a lot of positive response. We heard the government use that announcement to gasify rural Manitoba many times during the election, but after the election it just became a lot of hot air.
I want to ask the minister responsible for infrastructure, why, before the election, he, along with many of his other cabinet colleagues, met with the Swan River council and told them that there would definitely be money available for the gasification program in Swan River, and after the election that money disappeared?
In fact, just this week, the Swan River council got a letter saying that there was no more infrastructure money available for their proposal.
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Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): The member is asking me a very similar question to what she asked me the other day, and I informed her at the time, if she recalls correctly, that the community had, in fact, been informed. I believe the letter was sent on Thursday of last week, Madam Speaker, and the question was in this House this week if the member wants to check her information.
Madam Speaker, the issue is, there is a very successful rural gasification initiative taking place here in Manitoba through the infrastructure program. In excess of $21 million was allocated for rural gasification initiatives, and at this particular point in time, all of that money has been allocated. Decisions were made back in the early part of the year in terms of the projects that would move forward.
Projects are moving forward with Centra in southwestern Manitoba. Projects are moving forward in Gladstone through a co-operative approach, and at that particular point in time there were still the resources within the infrastructure program for Swan River to potentially be a part of it. Subsequent to that, all of the resources have been allocated.
There have been various problems with the Swan River proposal and initiative in terms of getting their project moving, Madam Speaker, in terms of a business plan, in terms of other financing aspects and so on. At this particular point in time, all of that allocation has been distributed. It remains to be seen what happens as these projects continue to move forward.
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, in fact, this government lied to the people of Swan River.
Madam Speaker: Order, please.
I have cautioned many members in this House on many occasions to pick and choose their words carefully, and I do not appreciate such direct insults being hurled across the Chamber, either to members collectively or members at large.
Would the honourable member for Swan River please pose her supplementary question now.
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I want to ask--
Point of Order
Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I understand your caution to all members with respect to parliamentary language, but, clearly, the member for Swan River used an unparliamentary term and ought to be asked to withdraw.
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, I take it that the government House leader is challenging your ruling.
I would like to ask if you had made a ruling and then recognized, first of all, the member to continue with the statement, but if the member is through this point of order challenging your ruling, I would like to point out that the member said that the government lied during the election.
The member for Swan River did not reference any individual, which is the basic definition in terms of unparliamentary, and, quite frankly, Madam Speaker, the government House leader should know that we have raised a series of issues that we feel fall in that category, and we feel they fall within what is our basic duty and our basic right in this Legislature to call something what it is, and we find it unfortunate that the minister would now suggest that we cannot say that a government lied.
The member did not accuse any individual member of lying. It was a statement related to the election and the Conservative Party in the election. That was what she stated was the context of the word "lying." Madam Speaker, we would strongly urge you to reject the government House leader's point of order and allow the member for Swan River to speak out on behalf of her constituents by continuing her question.
Madam Speaker: On the honourable government House leader's point of order, I had not made a ruling. I was being very lenient in my opinion in cautioning the member only. However, on the honourable member for Thompson's point of order, I still take strong exception to the word "lied," regardless of which context it has been used in. It is my understanding that in this House that word has continually been called unparliamentary and it does appear on the list of unparliamentary words in many contexts, and in the other lists it appears where there has always been intervention by the Speaker of the House in the Beauchesne's listings.
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Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River, for a very quick question.
Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister responsible for infrastructure why this government misled the people of Swan River and encouraged them to put forward a proposal. Just recently, they were encouraged to put forward a proposal when this government knew there was no infrastructure money left. Why did they encourage them to put forward the proposal, and I have it in a letter that you did encourage them.
Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Finance, for a very short response.
Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, there has been no misleading of the community whatsoever. I have outlined for the member the process in terms of the utilization of the $21 million for rural gasification, that early in the year decisions were made in terms of the projects that could move forward that had the rest of the financing in place to move forward, had the proper business plan in place. That has not been the case with Swan River and the Swan River region.
All of the money within the rural gasification portion of infrastructure has at this particular point in time been allocated to projects that are moving ahead. We have indicated to the community we are prepared to continue working with them, but we do require a solid business plan from the community. We do require that the rest of their financial commitments be in place. This is a significant project, I believe, some $5 million to $7 million, and those kinds of requirements have to be fulfilled, Madam Speaker.
We are prepared to sit down and work with the community, but I have outlined for this member that at this particular point in time the amount of money for rural gasification has all been allocated to other projects that are moving forward.
Health Care System
Emergency Services
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, we have confirmed that all of the community hospitals have been told that their emergency wards will be shut down.
Will the minister finally come clean in this House and advise the House that they have contacted community hospitals and they will be shut down at nighttime, or if that is not the case with all five hospitals, what specific hospitals at this point are going to be shut down?
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the question has been asked and answered today already. As I said, Mr. Jack Chapman, Q.C., mediator, has recommended that the various parties get together to discuss the provision of emergency medical care, and the option suggested by the honourable member is very much there as an option. It is the one that was used for the last month or so, contrary to our wishes, but that is what we had in place throughout the duration of the strike, is the nighttime closure of those emergency wards.
But now, Madam Speaker, with the infusion of all of those emergency physicians and pathologists, we can see a properly integrated program running city-wide, one program, a number of sites. That is what we have been wanting to see happen all along, whereby rather than having seven independently operating emergency rooms, we have one emergency program operating in various sites.
Health Care System
Emergency Services
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, we have asked this question all week. We have asked this question throughout Question Period. I think the public and the patients of Manitoba and Winnipeg are entitled to very straight answers to very specific questions. Concordia, Seven Oaks, Misericordia, Grace and Victoria, are all those five hospitals going to have their emergency wards closed down, late evening and early morning as a result of a government decision, yes or no?
Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, with a very short response.
Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I think the comments that have been made and recorded over the last month or so should be pretty clear, that we plan to make whatever adjustments are necessary to provide the best emergency care we can with the resources that we have.
The honourable Leader of the Opposition thinks that he can bully his way around here and force answers in the way that he wants them to be made. The fact is, we are working with the hospitals--
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Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind all honourable members that when the Speaker is on her feet, all members are to sit down immediately, and I would appreciate your co-operation.
Point of Order
Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order--[interjection] Well, Madam Speaker, I think the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pallister) should understand that when one stands to be recognized and one is recognized, one remains standing and one does not sit, but I wanted to raise a point of order on the statement that was made--[interjection]
Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for Thompson quickly address his point of order.
Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, my point of order was that the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae), in his so-called answer, referred to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) as "bullying" his way around. I would like to ask him to not only withdraw that comment but actually for once answer a question in this House.
Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson indeed does have a point of order. I would ask that the honourable Minister of Health quickly withdraw the unparliamentary word "bullying".
Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I apologize to you for remaining standing and talking after you rose. I apologize to the Leader of the Opposition for my language.
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Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.
Speaker's Ruling
Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House.
On Monday, September 18, the Deputy Speaker took under advisement a point of order raised by the deputy House leader about the length of private members' hour. What was at issue was if the House had agreed to call it 5 o'clock at four minutes to 4 p.m., whether the first portion of Private Members' Business should terminate at four minutes to 5 p.m.
Indeed, the deputy House leader did have a point of order. Subrule 19.(2) provides that Private Members' Business shall be considered for one hour.
It might be useful if we get into this situation again to have the Chair put on the record exactly when the first private members' hour will expire, and I will endeavour to do this.
If the House finds itself in similar circumstances in the future, the Chair will inform the House at the start of private members' hour of the exact time when it will end.
NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS
Mennonite Central Committee--75th Anniversary
Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?
Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wolseley have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, I would like to invite all members of the Legislature to join in recognizing the Mennonite Central Committee on the occasion of their 75th anniversary.
As most Manitobans know, the Mennonite Central Committee is a highly respected international relief agency whose Canadian headquarters are in Manitoba. The committee was founded in the 1920s to assist Mennonite and other settlements along the Dnieper River in Ukraine.
Combining word and deed, Canadians and Americans from all across the Mennonite community bound together to aid the victims of revolution and civil war. With donations and volunteers, they have continued to assist those in need around the world.
In the interwar years, they helped to resettle thousands of refugees in Paraguay, Brazil and Canada. After World War II, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War and today in El Salvador, Honduras and the Balkans, MCC is there to relieve suffering and to provide both food and technological expertise.
Thousands of Manitobans and Canadians have offered their services both abroad and at home, in thrift shops, in relief sales and through donations.
The Mennonite Central Committee has given birth to many other relief organizations--the Mennonite Disaster Service, the Mennonite Economic Development Associates, the self-help crafts of the world which provides 12,000 jobs a year in 35 countries, the Canadian Foodgrains Bank, the Mennonite conciliation services and the urban community service programs to assist victims and offenders, the disabled and those with mental illness.
Madam Speaker, this is not a community which seeks the recognition of any state, but let us acknowledge today the millions who have been and continue to be touched by the work of our fellow Manitobans. The Mennonite Central Committee remains for all of us a powerful witness of hope.
Winkler Bible Institute--Inner-City Ministry
Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, I ask for leave to make a nonpolitical statement.
Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Pembina have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Mr. Dyck: Madam Speaker, I would just like to concur with the points that have been made by the honourable member opposite, and this is very much in the same vein.
Over the past several days, 10 students from Winkler Bible Institute have been in Winnipeg's core area volunteering at soup kitchens and inner-city ministries. This initiative is organized on an annual basis with the Winkler Bible Institute whereby students go to work and reside with those who are less fortunate than themselves.
(Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair)
I would like to take this opportunity to praise the efforts of these young men and women as they seek through compassionate means to make a difference in the lives of those who are in very different circumstances than their own.
It is when I see young people such as these take this type of initiative that I feel confident the future of our provinces lies in good hands. Thank you.
Mennonite Central Committee--75th Anniversary
Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Could I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Is there leave for the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Mr. Penner: I certainly want to concur with many of the things that have been said in regard to the MCC and the services of the Mennonite Central Committee to the peoples of the world. It is certainly an experience that few have demonstrated could in fact be made possible by a group of volunteers such as the Mennonite Central Committee. The 75 years of service that they have rendered to virtually all countries anywhere in the world that needed help is a demonstration of their dedication, the will of the people and the powerful witness that they have demonstrated to mankind.
I believe that functions such as the auction sale that they hold annually at Morris and at Brandon to raise large amounts of money, the farm community coming together to give of their produce through the donation of wheat and other things, is clearly a demonstration of the kind of commitment that many of the other peoples of the world share and partake of.
Many of the shops that they have set up around this country, and specifically in Manitoba, are a demonstration that they are willing to get involved in promoting industry and industrial development through the retailing of those goods that could be produced by foreign countries, and in that manner make the full circle of self-help come true.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think it is imperative that we note that a major percentage of the people who have given of their time are in fact Manitobans. I think it is a clear demonstration that the willingness to help a fellow human being, regardless of where they are, that spirit remains true in Manitoba and the people of Manitoba. I think it is a clear indication of how we have conducted ourselves as Manitobans within the Canadian mosaic and our clear indication as to how willing we are to share our wealth with others in the world. The Mennonite Central Committee has certainly demonstrated its ability to lead that process and that demonstration in that context.
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4-H Week
Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]
Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, this week is 4-H Week, and I would like to take a moment to recognize the many young people who belong to 4-H clubs and the many volunteers who give of their time in order that young people can participate in this very good organization that gives young people the ability to learn many, many skills varying from cooking to sewing and home living. One of the most important skills that I think they have the opportunity to learn is public speaking. It has served young people from rural communities very well, who do not have the ability to access many of the programs that urban children have.
They also have the ability to travel to many areas, and I just want to commend the many people who work at it. It is a program that is sponsored to a degree by the Department of Agriculture and we have home economists involved in the program. I want to pay tribute to one particular club. It is a new club that has just been started in the community of Camperville. It has been a dream of mine for a long time.
My children went through 4-H for many years and I recognize the values of the program. I was a leader for many years and I have always been encouraging the people from Camperville to organize a club. I am extremely pleased, and I want to extend my best wishes to all 4-H'ers but, in particular, to the 4-H'ers at Camperville who are in their first year. I congratulate Ms. Rosteski who organized the club and I wish that they have many successes as many other 4-H clubs across the province have had. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.