ORAL QUESTION PERIOD

Winnipeg Jets/Arena

MEC Proposal

Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister.

Last June, when the Premier rejected the Burns recommendations of $111 million of public investment and called those investments unconscionable for the public purse, he was involved in creating a group called the MEC to help us keep the hockey team in the province of Manitoba.

Throughout the election campaign the Premier, on many radio occasions, many debates, stated to Manitobans that he was committed to (1) capping the donations of the provincial Conservative government to $10 million, and (2) cancelling the operating-loss agreement for the hockey team effective May l.

I would like to ask the Premier, was the financial plan prepared by the group that the Premier was involved in establishing, the MEC group, proposing a plan consistent with the commitment of the Premier to cap the donation of the provincial government to $10 million?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member opposite referred to my comments last June in response to the Burns report. Obviously, as he regurgitates and recycles his questions, he did not change the preamble, because I am sure he means June of 1994 because that is indeed when that comment was made.

As the member knows full well, many things have changed along the way as many people became involved in a grassroots process to attempt to maintain NHL hockey in Winnipeg. I know that members opposite fought that at every step of the way. They did not believe in supporting Manitobans in their efforts to do that. At every step of the way they tried to make cheap political points on the issue, and they continue to do nothing positive but to be only negative.

Even today the duke of despair from Crescentwood, in response to an investment of $75 million, creation of hundreds of jobs, comes up here and speaks negatively, negatively, negatively, joining his colleague the prince of darkness in this whole effort. Well, Manitobans have spoken. They are fed up with the negativism of New Democrats and their lack of leadership in this province.

I say to the member opposite that all of the information that he seeks will be provided. We have said that there will be audits, that there will be complete analysis, and all of the information will be provided in due course. All of the information that is required will be provided on all of these issues.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it is understandable why the Premier choked with the comments he made because what we are seeking here is accountability and truth, not rhetoric and speeches from the Premier.

Madam Speaker, I want to table the financial plan submitted by the Manitoba Entertainment Complex, a group created by the Premier, dated April 11, 1995, some two weeks before the election campaign during a period of time where the Premier was going across this province saying that the provincial Tory commitment was some $10 million capped, full stop. In this document prepared by a group to the Manitoba Securities Commission, it outlines a federal and provincial contribution not of $10 million of provincial contribution, but some $35 million. In this document it further outlines that the provincial shares would be transferred to the new ownership group, a further financial contribution, and further, it goes up to $89 million in public money.

I would like to ask the Premier, was he aware that this plan totally contradicted his election promise some two weeks before the election?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, if Manitobans are looking for truth, they will not look to the Leader of the Opposition for it.

Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Answer those questions. When did you know?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have not seen this plan. I will take the time to look through it. I can tell him unequivocally that during the election campaign I made my commitment based on the information that was available to me.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

Is he saying to Manitobans that the group of business people that he and his Finance minister established in June of 1994, a group of people who met with government officials and government ministers and the Premier all the way through the period of time, were going to put forward proposals to the Manitoba Securities Commission that had not been approved by the Premier himself and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and kept secret until past the election campaign?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, firstly, again, the falsehood that he continues to put forward, he adds to. The group that was known as MEC, Manitoba Entertainment Complex, was not created by this government or anybody in this government. It was created by the individuals who came forward and offered their efforts and their energy and their commitments to try and put together a package to save the Winnipeg Jets. That is the fact. They were not created by this government, and he ought not to try and spin that falsehood either.

Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, a new question to the Premier.

The Premier has acknowledged throughout the months that the former treasurer of the Conservative Party, Mr. Jules Benson, who now works as the secretary to the Treasury Board, has been involved in discussions all along with MEC. We know he was meeting with the Premier all the way through the election campaign. In fact, we saw him coming out of the Premier's Office on many occasions.

My new question to the Premier is, in the submission to the Manitoba Securities Commission it states and I quote: that because of the pending provincial election, that sensitivity to the issues involved in this matter, we would ask that the information and the application be dealt with in a strictly confidential manner.

In other words, kept from the people of Manitoba.

I would like to ask the Premier whether this confidential proposal from the MEC group, was that on the instructions of the Premier and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) who wanted to keep their election promise secret until after the election campaign?

Mr. Filmon: Absolutely not, Madam Speaker. I would think that they were more concerned with the fact that every day of the election campaign, these members opposite were trying to play cheap politics with the issue of the Winnipeg Jets and were raising it and distorting it for own their political purposes.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, a supplementary question to the Premier.

In light of the fact it was the Premier's promise of limiting and capping the donation, the provincial commitment, to $10 million all the way through the campaign day after day, radio debate after radio debate--all the debates that I attended with the Premier, that was his commitment; that was in Tory pamphlets all across the province--in light of the fact it was his promise to commit only to $10 million and in light of the fact that the MEC plan clearly contradicts and has much more provincial contribution than the word of the Premier, why would the MEC group want to keep this document secret if it was not only to protect the Premier's alleged word in the election campaign until after the election campaign?

Mr. Filmon: He would have to ask MEC that, Madam Speaker.

An Honourable Member: Richard Nixon used to say . . . .

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

An Honourable Member: You cannot help it. You lied your way into office.

An Honourable Member: You are the most dishonest, disreputable person.

Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Point of Order

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a point of order. [interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson will be recognized when the Speaker maintains order.

Mr. Ashton: Yes, Madam Speaker, in some of the heat of some of the exchange going on back and forth, some of us may have made some comments, including the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) who just called me dishonest, and coming from that First Minister, I would ask that that First Minister withdraw that comment unequivocally.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order from the honourable member for Thompson, I did not hear an exchange between members. I will, however, check Hansard and, if necessary, report back.

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Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this plan was dated and filed with the Manitoba Securities Commission two weeks prior to the election and voting day. This plan requires more contributions from the provincial government than the Premier's word. This plan includes more contributions from the public sector than what anybody was ever led to believe before the election campaign.

Is the Premier telling us that Mr. Benson, the former Conservative treasurer and secretary to the Treasury Board of the Conservative government, who met with the Premier daily throughout the election campaign, never informed him that his government had agreed to donations and contributions well beyond the Premier's word of $10 million during the campaign with the people of Manitoba?

Mr. Filmon: That is absolutely right, Madam Speaker, because this government did not agree to any additional contributions--absolutely not, absolutely not.

Winnipeg Jets/Arena

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

Following the settlement of the NHL strike without an agreement for a salary cap or revenue sharing, everyone knew that keeping the Winnipeg Jets in Winnipeg was going to be increasingly costly and difficult. In January, the Minister of Finance met with Lloyd Axworthy and Spirit/MEC officials as well as senior staff to review the financial realities facing MEC.

Will the minister tell the House what MEC stated was needed from the province and the federal government in order to complete their business plan?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): The MEC group, as the member for Crescentwood well knows, that tabled their ultimate business plan with us on April 26 of 1995--at that time at those meetings we confirmed what we were prepared to commit, the $10 million that was our commitment at that time based on all the information that was available, and that was what was communicated to MEC.

Mr. Sale: I would ask the minister, will he please stop skating and finally confirm that MEC indicated that it needed $35 million to $45 million in cash from the province and the federal government in January at that meeting?

Mr. Stefanson: MEC had some preliminary business plans that showed a level of contribution of somewhere in that vicinity. We indicated to them what we were prepared to commit.

The federal government was taking under advisement what they felt they could commit, and later in the whole process the federal government came back with their ultimate commitment to the process. The direction to MEC was to work on their business plan to find all of their other sources of funding, Madam Speaker.

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An Honourable Member: I thank the honourable minister for confirmation of--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would just remind the honourable member that if he wishes to have comments on Hansard, he must be recognized through the Chair.

Mr. Sale: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for that helpful direction. I apologize to you.

How then does the Minister of Finance explain the fact that following the January and February meetings where the $35-million to $45-million figures were used and made very clear by MEC/Spirit, the federal and provincial governments then proceeded to give MEC/Spirit $3 million to continue with their business plan?

Why would they do that if they had not agreed to the $35-million, $40-million precondition?

Mr. Stefanson: Plain and simple, Madam Speaker, because MEC had to continue to do all kinds of work in terms of attempting to raise their funding. I mean, major parts of it was the preparation of the business plan, was the marketing package that was underway, all elements of attempting to raise the funding that ultimately led to MEC being unable to close the financial package, then being revived by the Spirit of Manitoba and the significant financial undertaking put in place by them. It was that simple.

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for--[interjection]

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Both the Speaker and the Clerk have indicated that the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) has had one question and two supplementary questions, and I did recognize the honourable member for Inkster.

Immigration Agreement

Negotiations

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier regarding the immigration bilateral agreement.

There is a great deal of concern in terms of the way in which this government has been dealing with this issue, the apparent misleading of individuals within this Chamber and, in fact, the public. You can read articles through today's media where there are very serious allegations that are put forward against this particular government.

The fact of the matter is seven of the 10 provinces have achieved a bilateral agreement, and the federal government is proposing a new provincial nominee immigration classification.

The question to the Premier is, does the Premier believe that the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshammer) is capable of negotiating and co-operating in good faith? If not, maybe it is time that we replace this particular minister.

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank the member for Inkster for that comment and question because it enables me to speak to some of the lack of credibility of the federal minister in the article that he refers to.

Madam Speaker, I quote from the article that says: Marchi said he has never been contacted directly by Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Citizenship Minister Harold Gilleshammer.

I have for tabling, Madam Speaker, a letter on the letterhead of the office of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration directed to the Honourable Harold Gilleshammer, Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, dated in Ottawa June 23, 1995:

"Dear Mr. Gilleshammer: On behalf of the Honourable Sergio Marchi, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, I would like to acknowledge and thank you for your letter of June 16, 1995, requesting an opportunity to meet with the minister. Regrettably, I am unable at this time to confirm a date for such a meeting. However, we will contact you should the minister's schedule allow him to meet with you in the future. Again, thank you for writing. Sincerely, Jennifer LaDue, Assistant to the Scheduling Assistant."

Madam Speaker, it is not only an insult that the minister will not even deal with his counterpart minister, but has an assistant to the assistant scheduler write the letter. That gives I think a very direct indication of what a low priority the federal government puts on its relationships with ministers in this government and on this particular matter.

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Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I understand that, in fact, there has been a proposal that has been submitted back on September 15, and I would ask the Premier whether or not he is prepared to share that proposal with Manitobans today.

Mr. Filmon: The point is that in mid-June the minister asked for a meeting with his federal counterpart so that we could get at a matter that has been on the drawing boards for two and a half years and on which progress was being made, substantial progress was being made until there was a change of government in November of 1993, and since that time there has been absolutely no commitment on the part of the federal government to get at an agreement between this government and Ottawa, Madam Speaker, and I know that other provincial governments are concerned about the same kind of issue in this respect.

Madam Speaker, rather than come up here and try and defend his federal counterparts, I would say that the member for Inkster ought to get on the phone and tell them to get on with an agreement with this government, so that we can indeed do the things that all of us want in having more immigration to Manitoba and to meet our skill shortages, whether it be in the fashion industry or many other areas of our society, and he should get on with that job instead of trying to make Brownie points here in this Legislature.

Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the question that I asked the Premier, and I will ask again, is that there was a proposal that was submitted on behalf of this government. It takes both governments' consent in order to release this particular document.

I am asking the Premier, is he prepared to release this document so that Manitobans will know exactly what it is that this government wants to do with dealing with immigration?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I am pleased that I will be meeting with the federal minister soon, after repeatedly trying to get a meeting with him. We have made a number of proposals on the domestic recruitment of foreign students, I think a legitimate proposal that would benefit Manitoba and Canada. That has been rejected. We have made a proposal about bringing immigrants from the Ukraine to Manitoba. That proposal has been rejected by the federal minister. We had made other proposals as well, direct contact with posts overseas. That has been rejected. We have asked to take over the running of the ESL system. That proposal has been rejected.

But I go there with some optimism in that we finally have a meeting with the federal minister. We have a number of proposals to put forward, and we hope that we can move forward to getting an agreement.

Winnipeg Jets/Arena

MEC Proposal

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

In the MEC business plan which was tabled on April 26--coincidentally one day after the election--MEC notes on the third page that it met in January with representatives of the provincial and federal governments and they had indicated at that time that they would be requiring $35 to $45 million from those two levels of government. The outcome of that meeting was a further $3-million grant to them to pursue their operation.

Will the minister then finally confirm what the MEC business plan did confirm on April 26, that $35 million to $45 million had to be committed by the two levels of government for this business plan to have any credibility at all?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): No, I will not confirm that, Madam Speaker. Again, as I have already answered to the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), discussions were held back in January not only with the federal government, with the City of Winnipeg, and that was the magnitude of requirement I believe from all three levels of government. We indicated what we were prepared to do. The federal government had not given any kind of a firm commitment.

There was some suggestion at that particular point in time the federal government might be contributing as much as $30 million or $40 million to the overall combination of the development of an entertainment facility and attempting to save the Winnipeg Jets to keep them here in Manitoba. Ultimately, Madam Speaker, that number becomes significantly different because there is a requirement for $111 million from all three levels of government, but the number that was being focused on back in January from all three levels of government was that magnitude. We indicated $10 million. The federal government never gave a firm commitment.

Obviously, in the interim, work had to be done in terms of moving the project forward. We all know the time lines that project was under. We know the deadline of May 1 in terms of closing of the exercising of the option and moving forward with the development of a facility, so there was a lot of work that had to be done. The federal government and ourselves decided that it was appropriate to allow this to move forward knowing full well that our commitment was the $10 million and that MEC had to work with the federal government, the City of Winnipeg and any other methods of coming up with any financing that they required to put together the final deal, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Sale: Would the Minister of Finance, in light of his knowledge of the Securities Commission act, explain to this House why MEC would put forward in April a plan which had been worked on clearly from February onwards which included statements such as: the facility company expects to receive up to $35 million from the federal and provincial governments? Expects, Madam Speaker.

Will he explain why they would put forward a legal document that has commitments clearly indicated in it if they had not received those commitments from the federal and provincial governments?

Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, all I can tell this member is our commitment was made perfectly clear to MEC. We were not aware of any filing of any document with the Manitoba Securities Commission. We received the business plan on April 26, and if MEC filed that kind of a document with that kind of information it was obviously based on their assumptions that they could come up with that additional financing from the federal government or the City of Winnipeg or whatever source. They knew what our commitment was at that particular point in time, and they proceeded on a whatever basis.

In terms of this particular document, we were certainly not made aware of it, the one that is referred to being filed with the Securities Commission, nor was any representative of ours made aware of that document, plain and simple.

Standing Committee Review

Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): My question is to the Premier.

Will the Premier then make a commitment, in light of his statements, to attend Public Accounts committee, to bring Mr. Benson to that committee and to explain all of Mr. Benson's activities on behalf of your government in the period of time from last September to the day after the election?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I can tell the member unequivocally that we did not see this proposal until it was tabled here today, that Mr. Benson was not aware of the submission to the Securities Commission and that further, he can only look at the press clippings and know that Mr. Osler, who was the spokesperson for MEC, is quoted in the period leading up to last spring as saying that the federal government would provide some $30 million. He talked about them providing money from winter works programs and other things.

They may have had an expectation from the federal government, but we made it clear that it was $10 million we were prepared to commit.

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Eating Disorders

Adolescent Treatment Programs

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, in 1992, New Democrats raised concerns about cuts to eating disorder programs, especially those at the Health Sciences Centre. Despite the fact that services are already borderline, yesterday we tabled a memo which demonstrates that services will be cut still further. The critical state of treatment for adolescents is dramatically clear in the plight of the dying Jamie Woodhouse from Binscarth.

My question is to the Premier. Can the Premier tell this House today that his government will immediately establish an adolescent eating disorder treatment program and so save the lives of young people like Jamie Woodhouse?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member opposite has caught the disease of her Leader, and she says that yesterday they tabled documents that show that services will be cut at the Health Sciences Centre. What she tabled was a budget exercise being conducted by the Health Sciences Centre in which they asked for proposals to reduce 5, 10 and 15 percent expenditures in various areas of various parts of the Health Sciences Centre. Some of them were administrative reductions, pure and simple administrative reductions--no impact whatsoever on services. Others were simply proposals that may not and probably would not ever be acceptable to anybody in the delivery of health care.

That kind of segue into a question is absolutely misleading and has no place in this Question Period.

Out-of-Province Treatment

Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, today I wish to table with the House a letter from Jamie's attendant physician which states that because there is no appropriate treatment in Manitoba, Jamie's life depends on her being sent to the Montreaux Clinic in B.C.

Can the minister explain to this House why so little attention has been given to this dying girl when the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) is on record as promising, and I quote, the best possible treatment for Jamie?

Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Well, Madam Speaker, I guess I am closer to that situation than many in this House are because this individual happens to be from my constituency.

I can tell the members opposite that this is not an easy matter, one that the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) is truly familiar with, and one in which the Department of Health has worked closely with the medical staff in Brandon and in Russell to try and save this young person's life.

There is not anybody in this Chamber who would turn a blind eye to this. I can tell you that the Minister of Health has certainly been attentive to this situation and has worked with his department to try and do whatever we can to try and save not only Jamie's life, but others who are in the same situation.

In terms of the specifics, Madam Speaker, I would have to take that part of the question as notice for the Minister of Health.

Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I appreciate that the Minister of Health is away, but time is of the essence.

So I ask the Premier, will the Premier please give us his personal commitment that he will work to save the life of Jamie Woodhouse by sending her to the Montreaux Clinic in Victoria?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I was concerned when I read the information, as I know the member opposite is by her questions about Jamie Woodhouse, and have asked for further information to be provided.

I am prepared to review the matter and see what is the best approach and the most appropriate treatment to be provided on behalf of this individual.

I am concerned in the information that has preliminarily been provided for me to find that no medicare system in Canada, including British Columbia in which the clinic is located, pays for individuals to go for treatment there. That gives me pause to review and make sure that the treatment is appropriate to the needs of the individual, and when I am satisfied with that kind of analysis, then we will obviously be discussing further with the Department of Health the appropriate treatment.

Immigrant Referral Centre

Provincial Commitment

Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.

The new immigrant referral centre to be housed at the Somerset School across from the Health Sciences is a project co-ordinated by the Winnipeg School Division in co-operation with the federal government and presumably this provincial government. This centre would provide settlement services and assessment services for immigrant families, including social, educational and health care needs.

My question to the minister: When will this provincial government announce their commitment to this project and to immigrants in Manitoba, which has already received support from the school division and the federal government? When is this province going to make a commitment to immigrants?

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question. Our commitment to immigration and settlement issues in this province has been a very consistent one. We have maintained our budget of almost $2 million to help with settlement issues and particularly with ESL. That is a commitment that has not been matched by the federal government, but there are certain downward changes in the amount of funding that they are providing. My department is committed to providing those settlement issues and services for immigrants in Manitoba.

We have made a proposal to the federal government that this is an area of overlap and duplication whereby both levels of government are involved, and we think that Manitobans and immigrants generally would be better served if this was taken over by the province, and that is one of the issues that we have on the table.

Ms. Mihychuk: In this situation, it is not the federal government or the school division that is backing out of this project. The reality is that what we are looking for is a commitment from this provincial government to kick in for this project. It is just waiting for this province's commitment.

Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, the second question is essentially the same as the first. Our commitment in terms of resources and funds and staffing for immigration settlement needs in this province has been maintained, and I tell the member it is the federal government who is withdrawing funds, particularly from the language training area.

Ms. Mihychuk: Is the minister aware that we are not talking about ESL services alone? We are talking about settlement services to family that include a co-operative approach, including social services, health and education. Is this province willing to make that commitment and when?

Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, again, our commitment has been maintained for settlement issues in terms of the funding levels and staffing levels, and, in fact, at this point in time, there are fewer immigrants needing those services, but our commitment has been maintained at the same level.

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Health Sciences Centre

Budget Reduction

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, throughout this government's massive cuts to our health care system, they keep spinning the story that patient care is not compromised, and the government continues to say they are going to cut back in administrative costs in the system.

The Premier earlier in an answer, Madam Speaker, said that the proposals yesterday talked about cutting administrative costs out of the $19 million to be cut from Health Sciences Centre.

Can the Premier explain how on these proposals that see the elimination of possibly 20 nurses, a psychiatrist, a medical officer, pharmacy, housekeeping, one administrative position out of 25 will be eliminated in this proposal, how that is cutting $19 million or $1.9 million out of the budget with administrative costs? How can he perpetrate such nonsense on the public of Manitoba?

Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, as I indicated, there are many proposals being submitted from various areas of the Health Sciences Centre, from various departments. I said the proposals vary and one of them happens to be for an administrative cutback.

These are the kinds of things. This is not something that has been adopted. This is not something that has been prioritized by the Health Sciences Centre or approved of by government. It is fearmongering on the part of the opposition, and it is the kind of approach that I think they ought to be ashamed of.

Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the Premier explain in these proposals how it is, of the proposed 25.25 positions to be cut, there is one administrative position to be cut in here and the majority, the vast majority, in fact, 24 positions are actual health-giving positions?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, as usual, the member takes everything out of context, does not look at the entire picture. The executive director of Mental Health Services in Manitoba was on the radio this morning saying that a person ought to look at the whole picture and see whether or not there are services being provided in the community that would offset some of the services that are presently being provided in the institutions because that is part of the long-range plan.

It is supported by the mental health community, and it is something that was endorsed when the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) provided his proposal here. It was highly endorsed and acclaimed by those in the mental health community. They are looking at the entire picture, not doing the knee-jerk typical reaction of the member for Kildonan.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.

Committee Change

Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts be amended as follows: Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) for Thursday, September 21, 1995, for 10 a.m. [agreed]