HOUSING

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this section of the Committee of Supply, sitting in the Chamber, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Housing.

When the committee last met, it had been pursuing a general discussion as had been previously agreed on the Estimates of the Department of Housing on page 93 through page 96 of the Main Estimates book.

At this time, we invite the minister's staff to take their place in the Chamber.

Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Chairperson, we have been having quite an in-depth discussion with respect to the maintenance and costs respecting public housing in Manitoba.

I have a number of other questions in this area. We had been talking about the Manitoba portion for this budget of the $270-million reduction over the next three years from the federal governments, and I am wondering if the minister could clarify then the amount of money being reduced for some of the other social housing programs: the nonprofit Residential Rehab Assistance Program, the rural and native housing program, the urban native housing program, the emergency repair and rent supplement programs.

I have a document that says that over a five-year period beginning in 1992, the federal government plans to eliminate over $622 million. I am wondering if the minister could clarify how that is going to affect all the programs in Manitoba--and if I am understanding it correctly that the $5 million that he quoted the other day as the effect for this year in Manitoba--if that is in all those programs or just in the public housing program.

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Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Mr. Chairperson, before I answer the question to the member for Radisson, I would just like to point out that I received some disturbing news just very, very recently.

I had alluded, from time to time, about taking forth our concerns to the federal government regarding a meeting that was coming up in St. John's, Newfoundland, in the early part of July. I have been informed that the meeting has suddenly been cancelled by the federal government. They do not want to face the music, if you want to call it, from all the ministers across Canada, so there has been a sudden cancelling of the meeting.

There has been no indication of a rescheduling of the meeting. It would appear that the federal minister of housing, Mr. Dingwall, has decided that maybe he did not want to face the concerns that we were bringing forth and the other provinces from across Canada.

It is extremely disappointing that we do not have the chance to talk and interface, not only with the federal government, but also with my counterparts from across Canada, as to some of the areas of concern and some of the areas that they would look at in trying to come to some resolve regarding their portion, or decreasing of portion, of funding that they are being faced with.

It would have proved an excellent forum for the sharing of ideas, to the pooling of concerns for the fact of bringing together the ideas, not only that we would take forth on behalf of the Province of Manitoba and the department, but also the concerns that I am sure other ministers from across Canada had because of the sudden departure from the federal government with their announcement of, I believe, it was $270 million that was taken out of the housing budget from right across Canada. So I am extremely disappointed that I will not have that opportunity to relay that on an individual basis with the minister and also to share some of the concerns and some of the directions that some of the other ministers are taking.

I can only assume that the federal minister did not want to face the music, if you want to call it, or look at it in a realistic manner and look at it as a constructive time to bring forth an area of resolve on some of the directions that the federal government is taking.

The member mentioned the $5-million shortfall which would have related to Manitoba in their decrease. The federal government did not earmark any type of specific area where that money is coming from other than in a general decrease of $270 million which related to $5 million for Manitoba. They did not say that it was coming out of any particular budget line or any particular area within the Housing department other than just a total withdrawal of that particular amount of funding.

It is disturbing that we will not have the chance to meet with the minister other than through correspondence and through letters. It seems that the federal government is hiding behind themselves and making decisions and just imposing it on the province and asking us to just run with what they come down with as their directive.

Ms. Cerilli: First of all, I am concerned with the minister's news and I am disappointed. I am wondering if the minister had any explanation of why there was a cancellation of the ministers' meeting and if it is being cancelled or just postponed.

Mr. Reimer: The message that was conveyed was to the deputy minister of the department and just very, very recently. There was no explanation of it; it was a straight cancellation by the federal government. There was no indication of a rescheduling of the meeting, and that was more or less the whole direction of the conversation. There will be a letter coming, but this was done because of the closeness of the meeting which was coming up within a week. A phone call was made to the deputy to tell him that it had been cancelled.

From my understanding, there will be a letter coming forth, but with no indication of a new meeting or an alternative indicated by the phone call. There is very little optimism that we are going to be on a face-to-face with the federal minister in any near future.

Ms. Cerilli: They must have heard of how prepared you were getting with this strong case to take forward on the 30 percent rent geared to income, and the case for social housing.

With respect to the answer to the question I gave you about the $5-million reduction, then I am understanding from the minister that it is up to the province to decide which of the many programs that would be funded through CMHC that this would apply to. I am wondering if the minister could tell the committee how this is going to be absorbed or impact on all the different programs and maybe just even list off currently the programs that could be affected by this reduction.

Mr. Reimer: Where the direct effect of the funding that the member for Radisson is referring to is the fact that it will be more directed to no new growth. There will not be the availability to look at a growing need and a growing awareness of where the monies can be allocated in a growth pattern for social housing. The budgetary items which are before us now regarding the existing stock will not be affected in a sense in the reduction of priorities in that area, but where there was the opportunity to anticipate where further expenditures could be made or where there could be an area of growth in other areas, whether it is in the urban or rural area, those will not be realized. In fact, because of the carryover, I believe there is only maybe one new project that is still coming to fruition because of the existing agreements that we inherited, if you want to call it, from 1994.

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Ms. Cerilli: I am looking at a chart that talks about the actual delivery of social housing units in Winnipeg by type from '86 to '92, and it lists public nonprofit, private, co-op, rental supplement, urban native and then special purposes in the construction category. Now, as I understand it, the co-op program has been eliminated.

What I am trying to also sort out is if the minister is referring only to nonprofit public housing in answering my question, or if this is also all the other programs.

I made reference the other day to the loss of 50 percent of new units on reserve aboriginal housing. I do not want to spend too much more time on this. I am just trying to figure out if the minister and I are referring to the same program when we are talking about social housing or public housing, and if it just is that, nonprofit public housing.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I guess what I can refer to in the housing units that we are talking about, we are talking about in the annual report the units that are listed in Appendix "A," "B" and "C," which start on page 61, in the various areas of not only Winnipeg, but the various districts throughout Manitoba in which this conversation pertains to.

I can also point out, too, that we are 25 percent partners, which is also applied to what we are talking to, in the rural and northern program and the urban native program, which we are 25 percent participants in also.

Ms. Cerilli: Great. Good, clear answer. Okay, let us move on.

In doing further reading, I discovered that this massive erosion that we are faced with of Canada Mortgage and Housing actually began in 1983 under the Mulroney government when there was an evaluation done that suggested that programs were not well targeted to households in most need, and there was a global agreement implemented in 1986 with the provinces in program delivery from CMHC-funded programs. So municipalities, I think, really began to feel the effects in '89.

What I want to ask the minister is, in terms of income distribution, how did this new targeting change things in terms of the income of families that were targeted? Can the minister explain how the changes in the program, what they meant for families?

Mr. Reimer: It has been pointed out--the member mentioned that back in the early '80s regarding the study at that time--and indicated that the targets were not being met by the groups that were being looked at for the benefits of the social housing. Since then, there has been more of a targeting group towards the low income and the people of need in regard to the social housing. So that is more or less the targeting area.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Minister, that is the question I asked. I know that we are trying to target low income, the people in need. I am wondering what specifically is the target. How did it change after 1986? In terms of family income, what is the target now and what was it then?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, I should point out that the target, as the member has alluded to, has always been the low income of housing needs within the department. She is right in that area. I guess the definition that could be worked as a guideline is that the nonprofit program was intended to provide suitable and adequate housing for seniors, families, single persons and persons with special housing needs who could not otherwise afford it in the private market for less than 30 percent of their total household income. The households are defined as being in the poor housing need.

Now the thresholds or the income levels that are looked at will vary according to the various geographic areas within Manitoba. For example, as a threshold for a one bedroom in Winnipeg, it is just over $18,000, $18,500. In an area like Thompson, it is $18,000. For an area, say, like Flin Flon or The Pas, it is $17,000, and the figure goes down. In Pinawa it is $16,500. In Portage la Prairie it is back up to $18,000. An example of in the rural south, if you want to call it, towns like Arborg or Carberry, Deloraine, Gimli, Roblin-Russell, Teulon, it is up to $23,000. So the area for the need income threshold will move within the area in the province as an analysis point.

Ms. Cerilli: So those are the current thresholds for a one bedroom in different areas in Manitoba. I am wanting to compare that with what it was prior to this change, so prior to 1986. Does the minister have that information? My concern is it is not taking into account that the real family income is actually reduced.

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We have seen a number of increases in costs even for things like the elimination of some of the Pharmacare programs or reductions in the qualifying for the deductible. There are a number of things that people used to get for free or used to have for less money that they are now paying for, so my point is that there has been a reduction in people's real income. I am wanting to compare the current threshold with the previous threshold before these 1986 changes to see if it is taking into account the reality for a number of these families and these seniors. A number of these people are seniors.

Mr. Reimer: For a point of clarification, prior to 1986, low-income housing was theoretically open to anybody. The test that was put on the eligibility was on the income of 25 percent. That was the criteria if a person--pardon me, the rental income was based on 25 percent of their income, and the social housing was available at that time. At that time--I will let it go at that.

Ms. Cerilli: Let me see if I am understanding what the minister is telling me then. Prior to 1986, if someone was living in private accommodations where they were paying more than 25 percent of their income for their housing, they would then be able to qualify for public housing, but now there are these thresholds, that the family income has to be a certain amount for them to qualify. Am I understanding that correctly? I see some head-shaking.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, in fact, if the person was making any type of income and they are willing to put 25 percent down as their portion of rent, they could get into public housing and you had people who, theoretically, they could be making $30,000, $40,000 or $50,000, and if they were willing to put down 25 percent for public housing they could get into public housing. The rules that are in vogue now, if their income is more than, for example, when I mentioned $18,500, they are not eligible for public housing.

Ms. Cerilli: So I was understanding correctly.

Has there been any analysis done then to examine the family income that is now living in public housing following the new criteria as previously? Is this new system making that much of a difference, and I guess also with that, is there any evaluation to look at if the target incomes are realistic or if they should be increased somewhat?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, it should be pointed out that the income levels that are being alluded to in our conversations, as previously, are income levels that are based upon the 27 percent that the individual would be paying in rent if that person was in the private sector looking for suitable accommodations. They are evaluated annually so that if the rents are going up or down they are adjusted accordingly within the framework of what the individual is paying. So there is a consistency in the comparison of what the person may be renting, whether it is a one-bedroom or two-bedroom accommodation, like I say, in Winnipeg or in the rural area.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, that does not really answer the question I asked, but I am going to move on from this area. I mean, I was trying to still compare previously before the change in the targeting policy and currently, but I am going to move on to a related area, specifically related to the answer the minister just gave with respect to being able to vary the actual amount that is paid depending on the income of the tenant.

I want to know how Manitoba Housing Authority deals with families that rely on child maintenance support. We know, given the bill that was recently passed in the House, that there is a need for improvements in collecting maintenance for children. I have had concerns raised with me that Manitoba Housing has difficulty in responding when the maintenance does not come through, that there is a calculation based on a certain amount, and, of course, the concern is when that amount does not actually make it to the children, then there is going to be a problem, that they are paying more than 27 percent of their income.

How does the Housing Authority deal with this? What procedure do they have? Ninety-eight percent of the heads of households receiving child maintenance would be women, so how are these women dealt with?

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Mr. Reimer: The member is right in her comment regarding the payment of maintenance to the individual who is in public housing. That amount of money that individual will receive is used for determining income.

Now, if the payments are not made or they are missed, an adjustment is made proportionately to the rent, so that the person is not penalized because he or she did not receive the maintenance payments that were allocated and which were included in the income originally that was prescribed to that individual.

They have to apply through a process to get their rental reduced.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wanting just to get further clarification on what the turnaround time is, what the procedure is for applying. How is notification made to the Housing Authority that there has not been a receipt of the child maintenance and what kind of procedure is set up--that is the question I was asking--so that these matters can be dealt with expeditiously?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, the procedure for it is that if there is a missed payment, the tenant is asked to come down to fill out a form for that particular month and then that way they can seek the adjustment in their rental. I guess it could be pointed out that sometimes there are payments that are made, sometimes they are missed and sometimes they go on for a month or two months and then they are resumed again. So it is up to the tenant to make an appointment to come in, fill out the form and if this continually happens, then it is on a month-to-month basis that that procedure would be implemented.

(Mr. Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Ms. Cerilli: So my concern was that this can be changed before they actually have their rent payment made, that they are not required to pay the standard rent that is calculated based on what they are supposed to get.

Mr. Reimer: I should point out that we not only will do it for that particular month, but we will even go back and if there had been a payment missed in prior months, we will do an adjustment on it that way too.

Ms. Cerilli: I thank the minister for that. This is an area that I think is frustrating for a lot of women who are tenants. I am wondering if there is a requirement for them if they do have success in collecting arrears, then if the rent is calculated back the other way and they end up having to pay an increase in rent that would be like a back payment, if they do end up receiving arrears for their child maintenance.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, this is an area that has been pointed out that is sometimes hard to police because it is really up to the individual person to come forth and say they have received these types of back payments, or this resettlement, other than a court settlement where it becomes known and it is a recorded settlement. Otherwise it is something that is reviewed on an ongoing basis within the department as to whether there has been an arrears settlement come through or that, but it is just a situation that is hard to monitor.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wanting to move on to another area still with respect to public housing, and that is the much-talked-about opportunity for more tenant management. I know that a number of the previous ministers have talked about this. There has been a manual prepared from Manitoba Housing Authority, but I would just ask the minister to fill me in on what the status is for moving in this direction.

I am looking for the Hansard I have from one of the previous Estimates where the minister said there was also going to be some tenant advisory groups for public housing. I am wondering if that is up and running now, and how we are coming along with more tenant management. I know there are a couple of programs going on in the west end of the city; also, in Gilbert Park there is a pilot project. I am wanting an update on that.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, the member for Radisson is bringing forth a very good area of discussion in regard to the tenants association and the value that it can bring to the various housing complexes, not only here in Winnipeg but throughout Manitoba, because of the fact that the more that you have an involvement with the people who are part of the community or part of that particular complex, the more pride they have in their housing and in their homes and in their community. It reflects not only in their attitude and their lifestyle within the community of the tenants association but also in their relationships with other people in the surrounding communities.

There was a lecture in town; I guess it was maybe about a month ago. I cannot remember exactly the person's name, but he was addressing that same topic in which he said that there is a need for an asset assessment commitment by looking within the community itself, looking within the tenants association itself, looking at the strengths, looking at the places where there is a strong leadership role or involvement role and building upon that. Instead of always having government be the one that forces or initiates or leads or is the lead partner in any type of an association, try to get the community involved, get the tenants involved.

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A good example to which the member alluded was Gilbert Park. We have seen how if you have strong leadership, and you have a few people who can take the leadership role and can have the ability to do some directing and have the ability to get other people involved, that you can turn a different direction within that complex itself. In fact, it is just recently that $10,000 was given to the tenants association for their own direction in regard to landscaping around the Gilbert Park area. It gives the occupants a sense of accomplishment and of being part of the enhancement within a certain area.

There are ongoing meetings with all the various associations. I think the member and I in our tour of Lord Selkirk Park recognized that, in the short time that we were there, we could see some leadership that was shown by a few people who were involved within the community centre that was there and the fact that there are also overtures being made with The Maples Tenants Association for some sort of formalization of direction as to what is best for the area in the involvement with the tenants.

These are the things that you can positively grow on and build upon, not only because the association is involved, but the people themselves have a sense of accomplishment and have a sense of contribution within their own association.

Ms. Cerilli: I am wondering if the department has developed any terms of reference or specific goals with respect to tenant management. What are the specific goals in this area for the Manitoba Housing Authority?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, the member is alluding to the goals that are set up. I guess we can say that each association really looks within themselves as to what they feel is the importance of their specific area. We will act through the tenants' liaison, the staff that is available look at it as a catalyst to try to help them in any way that we can as a resource base or a consultation base.

The idea is to try to get this sort of grassroots involvement and the growth within themselves to come to some sort of resolve on the situation. We provide a client-needs service to them so that there is a resource person or a contact person who can try to give them some sort of guidance or direction, but it is the association itself that we feel can make the decisions for themselves to try to come to possibly even the total association and the management of that particular complex.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, it sounds to me like there are no specific goals and objectives for this area with the government, even though a number of the ministers have said this is an area that they think it would be advantageous for the Housing Authority to move in. It sounds like it is entirely initiated by the tenant associations and they are the ones that have to be the catalysts, that the Housing Authority itself has no specific plan with respect to moving towards tenant management.

I am wondering if they have identified what tenants could do, if they have any terms of reference guidelines for what tenants could do, and if the minister could tell us the number of tenant associations that they have had discussions with, with respect to tenant management. Those were about three different questions there.

Mr. Reimer: I should point out that the member is feeling that it is left up in the air really for the tenant associations to set up their own parameters and achievements and the goals they are looking for.

I believe that, to a degree, is true because each one of the complexes and the associations has to be recognized for its individuality and its location, the amount of involvement that the people can generate within themselves, the enthusiasm, the opportunity to participate in the project itself. There are a fair amount of parameters that come within themselves as to how successful it is. Usually a lot of areas have been volunteerism. There is that type of dedication that is hard to evaluate in the sense of accomplishments because of the people that are involved.

We, as a Housing Authority, will supply $24 per unit on an annual basis towards the tenant association. We also get the tenant relations officers available on a discussion basis, and one of their objectives is to try to generate the tenant association. They work very closely with the area managers in trying to come to a resolve, not of a problem resolving but also of solutions in a sense of where they can help the various associations in achieving their goals that they come forth with.

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There are a lot of variables that come into play because of the complexity or the diversity of where the units are located. We mentioned Gilbert Park and the success that it is enjoying, and that is mainly because of a lot of work by the volunteers who come forth and want to make a change. In other areas, there is a lot of work that still has to be done, and it is mainly because of maybe the contact with the people and their abilities to get involved or their willingness to get involved or, to the converse, their unwillingness really to be part of change or to be part of any association, or they feel that they do not have the time or the bother of making changes.

So the association itself has to generate the enthusiasm. We will certainly help in any way we can with the resources and the manpower and the abilities to direct and to steer to success stories and some of the pitfalls that some of the associations have gone through that they do not have to go through again in the setting up of their association.

Ms. Cerilli: How many tenant groups has this kind of discussion been undertaken with?

Mr. Reimer: Just as there are various housing developments--and I think the member recognized that we have developments and apartment blocks where there are seniors and there is a certain mix of occupants--it is the individual areas that will generate the enthusiasm. From what I am told, approximately 10 associations are in an active or in an exploratory area of association and formation within the districts, about 10.

Ms. Cerilli: I would appreciate if the minister knows where those tenant associations are, if he would let me know where those 10 associations are.

Mr. Reimer: We will supply a list to the member.

Ms. Cerilli: I am still not really satisfied with the minister's answers in this area. If it is an objective of the staff in the tenants relation offices to move in this direction, is it part of their mandate to help organize tenant associations?

Mr. Reimer: If asked, yes, we will be part of it.

Ms. Cerilli: How about the establishment of the social housing advisory groups. There was supposed to be a provision for those to be created regionally, I believe. Has that occurred with the new Housing Authority?

Mr. Reimer: It has been pointed out that there has not been much of a demand brought forth for this type of association, but it should be pointed out that the MHA does travel in their board meetings to the rural areas and to some of the other areas of Manitoba in carrying out their board meetings and their requests.

The representation on the MHA, on the board itself you have quite a diversity of people involved. In fact, you have nine from outside the city of Winnipeg; you have four from within the city of Winnipeg, for a board of 13. So there is that exposure to the rural housing through the representatives who sit on that board.

Ms. Cerilli: Once again, the minister is telling me that the requirement for the social housing advisory groups has not been fulfilled because there has not been the interest, or the minister has used the word "enthusiasm" a number of times, from tenants but, in my experience, it seems that tenants are quite interested in being involved in decision making and problem solving with respect to public housing.

I am wondering if perhaps the wrong approach is being taken. I am wondering if the Housing Authority has any kind of training program, a volunteer training program, board development, for these social housing advisory groups, any kind of comprehensive effort being made to actually reach out and develop these social housing advisory groups, and if they are in fact mandated through the regulations for the Housing Authority, that this maybe is necessary to fulfill that requirement.

Mr. Reimer: I should point out that--I may be misinterpreting the member's questions--but we do not have a request for social advisory groups. The tenant advisory groups that we encourage are within the confines of the individual complex or projects, so that there is that type of encouragement.

They are not mandated. They come forth on their own. When the MHA board meeting is travelling, there is representation through the various areas of the province, so the ability to have input is there, and one of the biggest areas or availability of input could be and should be, really, through the tenant advisory groups that can be formed out of the various complexes.

Ms. Cerilli: Reading again from the 1992 Estimates, when the Minister of Housing at that time said: The social housing advisory groups and a number of those kinds of things are new at the moment and will over the next few months, very likely now, I guess, in the fall, as we are in the prime summer vacation months, the tenants relation officers and each of the district offices' job will be to go out and to liaise with tenant groups and community associations who have an interest in continuing social housing.

So I am wondering if that was done, and if, as recommended by the Peat Marwick report: In order to maintain and encourage the valuable role played by housing authorities in providing for a local perspective and involvement in project tenant relations issues, that there would be the establishment of these social housing advisory groups.

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So, as I understand it, they were to be developed on a district basis. There are eight districts now in the province, and I am concerned if that has not been done over the last, going on three years now.

Mr. Reimer: It has been pointed out to me that there was a letter that was sent out by the chairman of MHA, Manitoba Housing Authority, to all municipalities, asking them for the input on the need for the social housing attitudes and out of all the municipalities, there were only five that responded with any type of overtures back on the letter that was sent out.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess the difference in emphasis may be due to my perception, but I was thinking that the purpose of the social housing advisory groups would be to have tenant input and it would make sense to have municipal officials also involved in this kind of a regional advisory group, but did this issue never get raised with any of the existing tenant associations? Did any of those letters ever go to existing tenants associations?

Mr. Reimer: The emphasis on the letter that was sent out to the municipalities and the reasoning behind sending it to the municipalities is because it is a letter that is going to elected officials that would in all likelihood know their community, know their particular area where social housing priorities would be, so you have to rely on their type of input to come back to you, because, as I mentioned, as elected officials they would have the scope of knowledge not only within their municipality but the certain sections of their municipality or district or R.M. as to what social housing requirements would be.

So the response would indicate, or the lack of response might indicate that they are satisfied with the system, and the fact of having the representation on the MHA, and that the avenue of contact through the existing framework was satisfactory and there is not this great hue and cry for a new direction to be taken.

Ms. Cerilli: Well, the information I have was that appointment of the social housing advisory group, members would follow the same nomination and ministerial appointment procedures as were previously followed for the Housing Authority board members. Previously, Housing Authority board members would be invited to participate on the boards of these groups, and I then have a listing of all those Housing Authorities that were eliminated.

I am wondering if this was ever done, if the appointment of any of these members was made, because as I understand it, those were just regular Order-in-Council appointments, and I would like some explanation of why this was not done.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, I guess the communication that the member for Radisson is referring to is something that the memories of the department and the people that I have before me are not totally aware of. They may not be able to give me a direction on it, but we will try to find out a little bit more on it for the member and try to get a resolve on it.

Ms. Cerilli: For the minister's information, it is the overview of Manitoba Housing Authority. It is dated February 1991, and it, I think, was developed when the regional housing authorities were eliminated.

I am somewhat concerned about this. Getting back to some of the issues we were discussing yesterday, if the minister is really and truly interested in ensuring that we retain social housing as an option for low-income Manitobans, that all of these kinds of organizational bodies would be really important and they would be very supportive. They would be, I think, horrified to see that the minister has now backed out of this meeting. This is the kind of organization that would be required, I think, to not only solve problems and meet the needs of these low-income Manitobans in a more locally sensitive way, as it is mandated that they do, but it would provide a real support to the Housing Authority.

I want to ask a couple more questions, though, with respect to the money that is available for tenants associations. The minister had said that it is available at a $24-per-unit annual basis, and I am wondering if I could be advised, over the last number of years, how much money is allocated for this purpose, and how much has ever been actually funded to tenants associations on this basis?

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Mr. Reimer: If the member would like, what we can do is--she has requested the tenants associations. What we can do at that time, too, is give her the accurate figure regarding the allocation of funds, but it is roughly around $70,000, I have been told.

It should be pointed out that it was also mentioned, for example, in the Lord Selkirk complex, that the funding that was allocated there because of the uniqueness of trying to get the tenants association off the ground there, that we have overfunded and spent more money than the allocation of $24 per unit.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, one of the other issues related to tenant management then is also the policy change from the Manitoba Housing Authority to no longer provide tools so that tenants can maintain their own yards.

I have a letter from a woman who lives in a housing project in St. Norbert who is concerned that over the past six years she has been able to have this equipment provided for her so she could mow her lawn, and now she has been told that is no longer going to be available. She has been told by the Housing Authority that is because the maintenance costs are too high and they do not want to be liable for accidents.

I am wondering if this is in fact the case and if we could not actually make the case for having tenants be able to share this kind of equipment, available centrally. Particularly in the larger Housing Authority complexes, it makes a lot of sense to do this. These are low-income people. They cannot be expected to go out and buy a lawn mower to mow a piece of grass, as this woman says, the size of her living room. So I am wondering if this is something the minister would reconsider.

Mr. Reimer: The member brings up an interesting observation regarding the maintenance and the upkeep around the unit. The present policy is that if there is equipment there it will stay there with the tenant until he or she moves out. I guess argument can be made for the pride of ownership in the sense of that complex, and maybe that is something we should be looking at again regarding what the implications are of what she is suggesting. We would take that as an advisement and consideration.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to clarify what the current policy is then, because as I understood it the lawn would be cut in the common areas in the complex and each individual tenant would be responsible for the lawn in front of their unit. Is that the case for the current policy?

Mr. Reimer: On the large complexes we will look after the grass, I guess, as the member is referring to, or we will make equipment available for the tenant to cut the grass within that certain complex. But it is a good point that maybe should be revisited as to the responsibilities and how it can be alleviated or helped.

Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister also tell me the policy for tenants who have a loss of food from their refrigerator and freezer when they are away and their unit has a breakdown? I had a phone call just this morning from a fellow who has had this happen to him. What is the policy in terms of any kind of claim being made for damage? There could also be problems with damage in the suite if there was water damage, for example, from the freezer. Is there a process where people can be compensated if, for no fault of their own, their refrigerator malfunctions and they lose a large quantity of food?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, regarding the individual incident that the member is alluding to, I am not totally familiar with that particular incident, but I guess I could look at the fact that if there is a power failure in a certain area of the city, the power goes out and the fridge went out and there was a spoilage of food or milk or something like that, I guess that is just part of an act of something that happened that we have no control over.

I would think that the recourse is like anybody, it is not able to put a blame on or a finger on anybody and say, the unit, there is a loss and we should be responsible. I do not believe that. The resolve on it would be just part of an act of God, if you want to call it, if there is a power outage.

Ms. Cerilli: In this case I do not think it was a power outage. I think the fridge broke, and because the fellow was away for almost a week, when he came home there was quite an odour in the house and his food was rotten and he claims he had $150 of food that was in the freezer, a lot of meat that was in the freezer, that spoiled. He is on welfare. He has been told that if he wants to be reimbursed from welfare he will have to take it out subsequently from his cheques. He will pay it back in essence. This is an issue that was just brought to my attention yesterday, so I wanted to clarify what the policy is.

* (1700)

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, I am not totally familiar with the incident that the member is alluding to. I can only respond to the fact that if someone is going away on holidays, usually you get someone to come in and check your suite or check your plants or check your building when you are away, because there is always that chance that something would happen, you have a water burst or something might happen. I can only say that possibly the individual should have had some sort of neighbour come in and maybe check his or her unit there to find out whether everything was in order. But there is no policy for replacement.

Ms. Cerilli: We were discussing earlier some of the requirements under the new Housing Authority that was to be completed in 1993. I am wondering if there has been any evaluation done of the new system since it has been operating for a couple of years now, and if the minister could give me some report on the benefits and the costs or the losses with respect to the new Manitoba Housing Authority.

Mr. Reimer: With the amalgamation that the member has alluded to, there were a lot of variables that were created because of the amalgamation itself that were not part of the old structures, if you want to call it. There has to be a realization that where we are dealing with a different type of environment, there is the emphasis and the direction towards computerization that has been undertaken within the department now that it has been amalgamated. There is the fact, we keep alluding to the different partners that are involved, the city and the federal government and the parameters of how they are coming at the different departments, including the Department of Housing.

There is also the different tendering system that has been implemented with the amalgamation and the Housing Authority. There is the bulk buying that was initiated to try to look at various ways of accommodating the costs. There is the major undertaking of converting from water to gas heat within some of the complexes. We also initiated the Power Smart type of approach to the units for the consumption and the conservation of energy.

A lot of these things are ongoing, and it is hard to put a snapshot on a particular area of comparison because of the changing nature of the Manitoba Housing and the directions that are being initiated under the present market. So there is that realization of how things are on a comparison basis.

Ms. Cerilli: I have been asking, and have asked a few questions previously, about the plans in the department for both the Housing Authority and the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. Is it the intention to bring these two bodies together?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, the two boards right now work very closely together because they complement each other and the lines of authority are parallel and intermingled to an extent between the two boards. The idea of efficiencies are always looked at in the alignment of any type of organization, but at the present time they are co-existing and they are working towards their goals that have been outlined within their parameters.

Ms. Cerilli: Are there plans to bring them together?

Mr. Reimer: There is always the opportunity to look at amalgamation within the departments and within the boards, and the direction that could be looked at in a sense is the ability to move the two together, yes.

* (1710)

Ms. Cerilli: What is the purpose of changing the composition of the Housing and Renewal Corporation board? What is the purpose of that? I notice that one of the previous ministers referenced that the board members were the minister, the deputy minister, the director of program development, the executive director of admin, the Deputy Minister of Urban Affairs and another former employee of the department. I am wondering if that has changed, what the current composition of the board is, and what the intention is or the reason is for moving to having members appointed through Order-in-Council.

Mr. Reimer: I should point out that the composition of the present board has not changed. The opportunity that is indicated is that it gives flexibility for the ability to make appointments onto that board, but as indicated by the bill that is before the House right now, there is opportunity to debate the bill and the merits of the bill, but it gives the flexibility of making a change and to have a public input within the board itself, but the composition of the board at the present time has not changed.

Ms. Cerilli: Am I correct that, currently, Manitoba Housing Authority is appointed by Order-in-Council?

Mr. Reimer: No, it is appointed by ministerial letter, appointed by me--or by the minister, I should say.

Ms. Cerilli: So they are political appointments.

I think I am going to move on to another issue, seeing as how we are running out of time.

One of the other issues, though, that I wanted to deal with in terms of public housing is the appeal mechanism that was set up with respect to the rent increase. This was something that I had been actively involved in, and, initially, I think, a lot of people thought it was going to deal not only with the inclusion of the property tax credit, but it was going to be an appeal for the entire rent increase.

I would like some explanation of why that did not occur, why it was only applied to the property tax increase, and then I am going to ask some questions to try and get a report on how that appeal process has gone.

Mr. Reimer: The appeal process the member is referring to was set up, I guess, primarily and specifically because of the tax rebate that the member alluded to which was now becoming part of the income of that individual. The appeal process was set up. The people had the opportunity to come forth with their appeals, and then they were evaluated and the merits and decisions were made with that. The members of the board were the citizen members of the MHA board. It was set up through that board.

Ms. Cerilli: My question was: Why did it not also include the more substantial increase of the additional 2 percent of income? Why was there not an appeal set up for the entire rent increase, as well as adding in the property tax credit as income, in calculating the rent geared to income?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, as mentioned, the appeal mechanism that was set up was specifically for that particular area of concern regarding the property tax rebate. The area the member is referring to, I believe, is when the percentage went from 26 percent to 27 percent. There was no appeal mechanism set up for that.

To the best of our knowledge, there is no appeal mechanism set up in any other area in Canada regarding when rates are increased. I guess it is similar to when rates are increased or decreased for social welfare or for any type of program.

Ms. Cerilli: My question was, why is that the case? Other programs like welfare do have an appeal process. So I guess the minister is telling me, because no other province did it that they were not going to have real consideration for need and effects on the many poverty-stricken families that are being faced with this. It ended up being quite a tax grab on behalf of this government. I think they ended up collecting something like over $300,000 just on the property tax credit portion. Is that correct? Is that the amount of money that this generated from some of the poorest Manitobans in the province?

Mr. Reimer: The member is right in the assumption that there was a figure. We would have to get back into the department to find out what the figure of increase was. It would be speculative on my part to say whether that figure was right or wrong at this particular time. We can find out more accurately through the department as to that amount of money that was realized. We do not have it with us at this time.

Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, but it is in the area then--the minister is agreeing--of around $300,000.

Mr. Reimer: I cannot comment yes or no whether that is the figure. It is hard to even roughly estimate because of the fact that the availability of information with us right now does not indicate whether that is a proper figure or not.

Ms. Cerilli: I just, as I was saying, want to get a brief report on the number of people who appealed and the total amount of money that was rebated.

* (1720)

Mr. Reimer: The figures that I have in front of me are that to date, 326 appeals have been processed. Thirty-five have been approved, and there are currently four appeals deferred, waiting for more information.

Ms. Cerilli: Do you have information about the amount of money that was then rebated?

Mr. Reimer: The total amount per annum for the 35 appeals is just over $3,000--$3,240.

Ms. Cerilli: How much was the cost in terms of staff time to analyze, process, discuss, review and sort through those appeals in that process to rebate back the $3,200?

Mr. Reimer: This is an example of responding to the special needs that were brought forth through the Granville appeal program, where you had mechanisms that were set up in the 13 regions, you had eight members of the Manitoba Housing Authority that were involved, you had three staff people that were involved, so to put a dollar figure on it would be very hard.

I think the member can recognize that there was an awful lot of people involved in trying to come to a resolve of these 326 appeals that have been processed to date.

Ms. Cerilli: I think if we did a cost-benefit analysis on this increase in the rent geared to income to include the property tax credit, we would find that this is not a good example of how to manage in government, would we not? We would find that this has been a costly endeavour.

I would appreciate if the minister can do that calculation. We have done some work on this with our calculators in our research department on this side of the House and in talking with tenants, and I think this is an example of how we have tried to get blood from a stone and we have gone after an increase in revenue from people who do not have it. What it has amounted to is a big cost to government in administering not only the appeal process but probably also in administering the calculation of the rent increase as well.

I wonder if the minister would agree that what they have learned from this is that it is not a good approach in dealing with low-income tenants.

Mr. Reimer: What I will point out is the fact that this is a government of responsibility in responding to a request. The people were upset and wanted an avenue of recourse regarding their rent and their interpretation of the new situation, and this government responded by giving them an avenue of appeal. So it is the converse, I think, of what the member is referring to.

We have been proactive in recognizing that the people want to come forth with their concerns and the fact that they had concerns about the rental appeal and the impact on their income, and we responded by setting up this appeal board for them so they have the opportunity to come forth to government and make their case. We are very open, willing and obliging to accommodate the people.

I do not think the member is saying that we should not have had the appeal board because then that way the people who had legitimate claims and were looking for the rebates which they were eligible for would not have had the opportunity to come forth and collect on monies that are owing to them. The appeal program itself has set up a mechanism where they have been recognized through the appeal process and that monies have gone back to them. So I think that it is the converse that this shows that there is a caring government and we do want to set up a program for their avenue to get their monies that are possibly due to them.

Ms. Cerilli: Firstly, I would let the minister know that I was advocating and pushing for the appeal to be not only on the property tax credit increase but also on the increase to 27 percent.

Secondly, I am not suggesting they were not caring. I am suggesting this was not the most fiscally responsible thing to do. I was also advocating that there not be an increase of this magnitude for these people, given that they are low-income Manitobans, that they would not have their property tax credit taxed or included in their rent.

When you look at the fact that there were three staff involved in trying to address the unfairness--which I think is acknowledged by having the appeal process--of this, what I would call a tax grab on behalf of the government, you would see that it was not a very prudent thing to do. I guess it is like I was saying earlier, it would be interesting to look at the final numbers if the revenue collected from these low-income Manitobans was somewhere around $300,000, how much was spent in the staff time and the resources to actually make those changes in the formula and then the additional time that was needed to rebate the $3,200 and deal with the appeal process?

I guess I am suggesting that this has been what I would think would be a lesson because I did not think that increase was very fair. It was, I think, irresponsible then just to even look at that kind of an increase for these low-income Manitobans on top of the increase they were having to pay because the rent geared to income went to 27 percent.

That is all that I have to say on that; that is the point I wanted to make. I would appreciate if the minister would do that analysis for us and provide the committee with that information or provide me with that information.

(Mr. Chairperson in the Chair)

Mr. Reimer: Yes, we will provide that information on whether that was an accurate figure regarding the increase. I think the member was referring to the fact that she was looking for the amount of monies that were realized because of including that amount in their income supplement. Right? [interjection] Property tax credit. Okay.

* (1730)

Ms. Cerilli: Considering the time, I am just going to move on now and ask a few questions about the Home Renovation Program.

Mr. Reimer: Just as a point of clarification, is the member saying that we are finished with Manitoba Housing then and we are now going on to Manitoba Home Renovation Program?

Ms. Cerilli: That is what I was planning to do unless that means there is going to be a big change in the staff.

Mr. Reimer: From what I understand, we would have to pass the Minister's Salary and then the staff come back in for Home Renovation Program.

Ms. Cerilli: That is what I was planning to do unless that means there is going to be a big change in the staff.

Mr. Reimer: From what I understand, we would have to pass this, the Minister's Salary, and then the staff come back in for the Home Renovation Program.

Mr. Chairperson: The committee will have to pass this department first, and then we can come back to Home Renovation.

Ms. Cerilli: Then I will ask a couple of questions first on Client Services from the SAFER programs, those programs.

I had the concern raised with me that rent supplements were not meeting the needs of increased rents, and I am wondering what the formula is for the SAFER program, the supplement for elderly renters, if part of the intent is to try and keep up to rent increases, so the percentage of their income that they are paying for their rent is not going to dramatically increase.

Mr. Reimer: Just for a point of clarification, what SAFER is doing, it provides monthly cash assistance to persons aged 55-plus whose rent for the private-market accommodation exceeds 25 percent of their household income, which is, you know, they are social assistance recipients and persons residing in government-subsidized housing.

The rent-supplemented housing or personal care homes are not eligible and that assistance was already provided through the other government programs. There are currently around 3,700 households receiving this monthly benefit. The average monthly benefit for singles is about $102 and for couples is about $81, $81.62. The maximum benefit is $170 per month based on the eligible incomes and the qualifications of $17,640 for single renters and $19,800 for couples. The maximum rental rates under program guidelines on which the calculations are based are $405 per month for single renters and $455 for couples. I should point out that they are evaluated annually, too.

Ms. Cerilli: The minister has partially given me the information I was looking for, that the 25 percent rent geared to income is still the guideline for subsidy, so there is not the intent to move as have other social housing programs up to 27 and up to 30 percent.

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairperson, the idea behind the SAFER program is to try to keep the people within the private market accommodation guidelines and the income that is over the 25 percent that the individual might experience is the portion of that that the individual will get back in trying to accommodate themselves for their rent. It is a program to keep them in the existing private market instead of going into public housing.

Ms. Cerilli: With respect, the minister did not answer the question. The question was if there are plans to change that to 30 percent, which would mean that people would not qualify for as much subsidy. I have a case which I will bring to the minister's attention as an individual case, but I am asking the basic question if there are plans to change the threshold.

Mr. Reimer: The quick answer is no.

Ms. Cerilli: How would the minister explain that one fellow who has come to my attention was receiving $82 per month from SAFER five years ago, and his last cheque was only $60 a month, even though his rent has gone from $290 to $350?

Mr. Reimer: In that particular case, I am sure that we can look at it on an individual basis and try to come to some sort of a resolve or an answer for the member.

I should point out that speculatively, if that individual's income went up, why then naturally the subsidy would be adjusted accordingly, but as to the specifics, if the member was wanting to convey it through me or to my staff, we will certainly look at it.

* (1740)

Ms. Cerilli: I am wondering with respect to all of these programs, the subsidy for family renters and elderly renters, how many inspectors there are who deal with these clients, and if their role is to also inspect the quality of the housing, if they are responsible for ensuring that the subsidy that the province is paying is going to be going to decent safe housing.

Mr. Reimer: There are no inspectors that inspect the program per se, because the program is a benefit to the individuals and in their own particular circumstances it is administered that way so there is not an ongoing inspection or inspection of the accommodations these people live in or their domicile.

Ms. Cerilli: So there are not inspectors, but when I look in the government phone book for Housing, it says there is an inspections co-ordinator under the director that deals with all of these programs and then there are the adjudicators and the project officers. This is a concern to me if we have subsidies for social housing programs that could be going to substandard housing.

I raised this issue when I was in the Residential Tenancies branch with respect to social allowance going to substandard housing for low-income Manitobans. We could also have the same thing happening with these programs so there could be outstanding work orders on properties that were subsidizing people at taxpayers' expense to live in.

Is that something the minister is concerned about and the department is concerned about and is looking at, because then the obvious question would be the adjudicators do not do any kind of analysis of the rental accommodation? They are simply going to give the subsidy based on qualifying given the income of the clients.

Mr. Reimer: I think what the member is referring to when she talks about the inspectors is inspectors that are available at the present time are the inspectors that are within the Manitoba Housing Authority and their inspection of the public housing and their responsibilities and the purview that they work under.

With the private market, we do not do the inspections of the private market facilities and the households or the apartments that these people would live in. The people who are within this program have the ability that if they are not satisfied with their occupancy or if they have a problem with the facility or type of concerns, they can go to the Rentalsman through the Consumer and Corporate Affairs department for some sort of recourse.

The inspection unit for the Department of Housing provides the inspection services for the Homeowner Emergency Loan Program, the Manitoba Home Renovation Program and for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. So those are the types of areas that there would be a coverage of it. City inspectors also can be involved, you know, in the housing for complaints about substandard housing through the city of Winnipeg. So that there are avenues of recourse for individuals if they are not satisfied, but the Manitoba Housing does not provide inspection to the private market.

Ms. Cerilli: I guess I will just conclude my remarks on the department then with this comment. I would think it would be part of the objective of all the programs in the Department of Housing to ensure that as much as possible we are going to have Manitobans in safe and affordable and decent accommodations. We have to look at the fact that so many low-income Manitobans are living in substandard housing.

If we look at the fact that over 70 percent of people on welfare, on social allowance, are living in substandard housing, and then we put on top of that the number of people who are qualifying for these shelter assistance programs are also living in properties in the private market that are not being inspected routinely, we have the taxpayers doing an awful lot of subsidy of poor housing.

I would just conclude by raising this as an issue and having the department give some consideration for dealing with the problem of subsidizing people to live in inadequate and substandard housing, and that we could probably, through these programs, have some ability to ensure, especially in the area of work orders, that work orders are going to be complied with. Because these programs end up helping landlords. They end up helping often landlords who do not maintain their properties, and that is a concern to us.

Mr. Reimer: I think the member for Radisson brings up some good points of discussion in regard to what is happening and the direction of the housing market.

These are all excellent areas of concern, I think, that we all have to be asking because of the fact that it has been pointed out, and I alluded to earlier, I was very much looking forward to talking to my colleagues on a cross-Canada basis and also the Minister Dingwall on the federal scene as to what were some of their parameters, their objectives, their directions and some of their input that I felt that we as Manitobans could use and that we as Manitobans could share our concerns on a national basis and on a federal basis as to what was happening.

The federal Liberals cancelling the meeting has left us in an area of quandary as to--other than the fact that they have said that they are going to cut the funding, they are going to leave the funding, pardon me, leave us with ways to fend for ourselves, it leaves us without any type of support that we can look back on and say that they are going to be involved with the decision making.

This whole area of social housing and the direction that the member has indicated is something that is going to be of more and more concern because of the fact that the budgetary requirements and the budgetary implications and the priorities of spending will come into effect. The commitment to social housing has been put forth by this government as a priority, to try to accommodate affordable and decent housing for the people that are of need in Manitoba.

* (1750)

Indeed, a lot of questions will be asked, and a lot of directions and the consolidations and the directions of decision making can possibly bring in new venues of looking at what is the need and where is the need and how is the best way to approach the market and get these things resolved. So the member's comments are of note and good directions to foster and to try to develop.

Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding that if you canvass the House, there is a willingness for you to disregard the clock so these Estimates could be completed.

Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee that I not see the clock at six o'clock? Agreed? [agreed]

Item 1. Administration and Finance (b) Executive Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits.

Ms. Cerilli: I just want to clarify, Mr. Chairperson, how much time is remaining for the Estimates? The clock--I mean, I am not supposed to see the clock but--

Mr. Chairperson: Approximately ten minutes.

Ms. Cerilli: That is until six, but, as I understand it, we are going to disregard the clock--

Mr. Chairperson: An extra five minutes.

Ms. Cerilli: --and then there is an additional five minutes. So we have 15 minutes in total. We have not passed any of the sections yet, and we have not dealt with the Home Renovation Program.

Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable member.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Okay, I thank you for the privilege. My question is very simple. I was going to write the minister in regard to a constituency matter, but I want some clarification in regard to the operating manual of Manitoba Housing Authority in regard to the consideration of foster care payments in determining the rental in Manitoba Housing and Renewal apartments.

The person I am concerned about is receiving $65 a day in foster care payments. For the time being, that is the only income because the person is just starting up a business. So there is no other income. Now, I have got the policy in front of me here. I am having a hard time deciphering it. It indicates that any of foster care payments will not be considered unless it is more than one-third of the family income.

In this case, it is the only income for the family at this time, so how would the department consider the rental rate for someone in that circumstance?

Mr. Reimer: Mr. Chairman, what the member for The Maples is referring to in regard to foster care and the inclusion of foster care funding as part of income has a certain amount of complexity involved with the interpretation of where the line of the amount of monies that can be deducted and the fact that, in normal circumstances, 27 percent of income is the criteria for rent.

It is my understanding with foster care that there is a certain amount of deductions allowed prior to the amount classed as income. I would suggest that possibly the member, if he could write me a letter explaining what he has been presented with, I can get a clearer definition of it through the department and we will try to come to some sort of resolve and an answer to his question.

Mr. Kowalski: I have just one more short question. Recently, in The Maples, the tenants association sponsored a spring cleanup. The tenants association has recently been revived there. Cindy Schmuland, I believe that is her name, has really activated that group, and the department was very generous with providing brooms, garbage cans, garbage bags and a lot of equipment, was very generous, and the tenants in that association were very appreciative of the equipment that was supplied, so that they could take responsibility and take charge of their neighbourhood and show that they had a stake in it. It was their neighbourhood and they were very proud of it. Is this a common practice in other Manitoba housing renewal developments?

Mr. Reimer: The member is alluding to The Maples Tenants Association, and I compliment him on his involvement with the group in coming to a recognition of the needs in his particular area. I know the member for The Maples has been quite actively involved with a lot of groups in his area, and I guess that is one of the reasons he is back and some other people are not, maybe, possibly, but that is a different topic. I apologize for digressing there.

But I should mention that The Maples Tenants Association is an example of where people have come together who recognize the value of and the need for participating within their own complex. They have looked at the availability of their assets in the needs assessment of the area. They have come forth with suggestions in areas of concern by the tenants. The idea of looking at the cleanup of the area was something that was always needed in the environmental approach to looking at the program.

I understand that there are over 150 units or close to 150 units in that area, and The Maples association has been pointed out by staff as one of the ones they are working with very closely in trying to come to a more solid association in working together on some of the goals and achievements of the association.

* (1800)

While I am mentioning that, I can mention to the member that I was not sure whether he was here at the time but, through the department, there is an allowance of $24 per unit on an annual basis to the tenants association for their use and for the betterment and for their administration or whatever they find use for.

I could point out to the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), through his party affiliation that possibly, just as he is concerned about his association and his constituency, the minister and this department are also concerned with some of the things that his national party are involved with in the fact of the direction that they have started to take on some of their attitudes towards social housing. I would hope that he would take time to express his concerns which are of importance to all Manitobans in social housing and the housing perceptions of what the needs are, and in addressing not only his association's needs that he can also go forth with the idea that Manitobans in general all feel that there is quite a need for the social housing and the department has got a conscious effort of trying to look at the best way to approach the market.

I would think that his association with The Maples is an example of where people have come together, people have recognized, they have done a needs assessment in the particular area, they have come to the conclusion that they can help best by being involved. They can help best by trying to help each other and to come to an agreement, to come to a position where volunteers, which are a very, very big part of any type of community and play a significant role in the improvement of their reliance on self-worth and the fact that they can get involved, they can see the end results of their commitment, they can come forth with ideas that a lot of people will work on, and a lot of areas really can use as an example.

I am sure that The Maples Tenants Association with their representation and the people involved with that can be used as an area of comparison for other areas here in the city of Winnipeg where we are trying to foster growth.

We have talked briefly about the Lord Selkirk project. I am sure that there are maybe people in the Lord Selkirk tenants association there that look at the program that is happening in The Maples and possibly learn. They can associate with the goals, objectives that they are involved with, the aspirations, the fact that they are wanting to get involved. These are all very strong attributes that any community can take forth.

They should be recognized, as the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) is very right in bringing forth this type of recognition to the House, that we as members of the Legislative Assembly are aware that this is happening. The department is grateful, because there are a lot of things that are done that the department is not totally aware of, and by bringing it forth the department now can take this back to the people in their office and say that they were very aware of--

An Honourable Member: Kind of an in-service session.

Mr. Reimer: Yes, it is. There is a growing togetherness of a lot of the goals and aspirations.

It will relate back into the department where the department will be aware of these things, and they can use this as an example. They can use this as an example when they go back to their office. They will be able to tell their managers and everyone that this was what was talked about in the Estimates and the pride of the member for The Maples that he has in the association that he has been involved with in Winnipeg and that these are things to grow on.

These are the type of things that you can identify with and you can take pride in, and the fact that we here in Manitoba have this type of strong volunteerism. We have always been very, very proud of the volunteer base that we work with within my community and I am sure in all communities here in Winnipeg. I say Winnipeg, but I should say Manitoba, because Manitoba has a strong volunteer base, and this year when we celebrate our 125th anniversary as a province this gives us an opportunity to build a lot of things and a lot of character within the framework of housing and the celebration that we can all be associated with. At this time, you know, it gives us a lot of good areas of concern--

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I am interrupting the proceedings of this section of the Committee of Supply because the total time allowed for Estimates consideration has now expired.

Our Rule 64.1(1), providing in part that not more than 240 hours shall be allowed for the consideration in Committee of the Whole of ways and means and supply resolutions respecting all types of Estimates and of relevant Supply Bills. Our Rule 64.1(3) provides that where the time limit has expired the Chairperson shall forthwith put all remaining questions necessary to dispose of the matter and such questions shall not be subject to debate, amendment or adjournment.

I am therefore going to call in sequence the questions on the following matters: Housing, and Home Renovation.

Resolution 30.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,545,500 for Housing, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Resolution 30.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,246,400 for Housing, Housing Program Support for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

Resolution 30.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $42,235,200 for Housing, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

OTHER APPROPRIATIONS

Home Renovation Program - Capital

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Resolution 27.8: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,500,000 for Other Appropriations, Home Renovation Program - Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996.

The hour being after 6 p.m., I am leaving the Chair and will return at 10 a.m. tomorrow (Thursday), at which time all sections of the Committee of Supply will meet in the Chamber.