JUSTICE

Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply come to order, please. This section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates in the Department of Justice.

Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time.

We are on resolution 4.4 (b) Adult Corrections.

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Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): I wonder if I can just have a moment; I left a file in the caucus office.

Before Oral Questions today, the minister tabled two annual reports: one for the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board to the year ending March 31, '94; the other one for the Victims Assistance Committee to the year ending March 31, '93.

Aside from the lateness of the Victims Assistance Committee report, which is inexcusable in my view, these reports were tabled shortly or within hours after this committee considered these two divisions. It is my view that that is an affront to the process of this Legislature and to this committee; and, indeed, it follows a pattern established by the timing of the tabling of the vehicle impoundment registry annual report, which, I believe, was tabled on the sitting after the Committee of Supply considered the Estimates.

I would like the minister to explain to this committee why she thinks it is appropriate that the annual reports of areas in the Department of Justice be tabled immediately after their consideration in Supply?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am not sure what the member is suggesting in the asking of this question; however, it is my effort to provide to him information that I am to table in the Legislature.

In the process of consideration of Estimates, only he knows where he is going to go each day. If he wants to share that with me, give me some idea if something is available to me, I would certainly try to accommodate him, but I honestly have no idea where that member plans to go in the process of Estimates.

My obligation, however, is to be here to answer questions that are put forward in Estimates, which I have done for this past many hours and certainly am prepared to stay as many hours as are required by the member. In addition to that, I am also more than prepared to submit the annual reports to the Legislature and have been doing so on quite a regular basis to make sure that is accomplished. If the member has some other point he would like to raise, then I am sure he will do it.

Mr. Mackintosh: Perhaps the minister can clarify when she had available to the Legislature for tabling the report of the Victims Assistance Committee and the report of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am not able to provide that information to the member now; however, those two reports were brought to my attention today to table, and I did so.

If there is something which the member would like to inquire about, I will do my best to answer him or he can ask me, whatever he feels he may have missed. I will attempt to provide him with the information now or in a follow-up.

But, as I have said, the process of going through the Estimates is really within his control; where we proceed is within his control. I do not have any indication from him and never have of where he is planning to go or proceed.

I assume as we cover each area, he is asking the questions that he believes are important, but I am not going anywhere. I am here. I am more than pleased to try and provide for the member information that will be helpful to him if it is available to me, and I can do that now or at another time.

It is not uncommon for the member to write me letters during the course of the year, even at times when we are not sitting, and ask for certain information to be provided, and I certainly have tried to do that. So, if the member has any further questions on those reports, if those questions could be forwarded to me, I will be more than happy to answer them.

Mr. Mackintosh: I will be looking very carefully at this pattern, and I will want to see this minister, in particular, ensure that the reports pertaining to her department are tabled in this House in advance of the beginning of the review of departmental Estimates.

In particular, I look forward to her answers to questions made earlier as to when her office has received reports. I believe the question related to the Human Rights Commission and the Legal Aid Society to ensure that those reports are tabled immediately in the House as is required by law.

My list of issues before we left, that we thought we could deal with this afternoon, began with the Beausejour Justice Committee or whatever the name is, but the pilot project in Beausejour, which resembled for adults a youth justice committee system, I am wondering if the minister can advise the committee whether that project is still ongoing.

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Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is yes.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee how this committee is operating in terms of what kinds of offences are being--or what kinds of charges are being referred to the committee? By the way, if she could say what the official name of this project is?

Mrs. Vodrey: The name of the committee, I believe, is the Beausejour and District Justice Committee. This was part of a pilot project that we undertook. The committee has a formal agreement with Prosecutions to deal with adults being diverted from formal court action.

The kinds of adults who are eligible must meet strict criteria. The kinds of offences are summary conviction types of offences. The individual must admit to the offence, and the individual must be willing to make restitution.

Bill C-41 passed in the Parliament of Canada last week does make a provision for this type of adult diversion.

Mr. Mackintosh: Who comprises the committee?

Mrs. Vodrey: The committee is comprised of community members from the local area, and it is chaired by a lawyer from Beausejour.

Mr. Mackintosh: How are the members of the committee found? Is there a search committee, or is there advertising in the papers, or do you have to be in a certain position to be appointed or elected to the committee?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that various agencies get notices of the intention to establish such a committee. Sometimes there are also public notices which are put forward. People then, who have an expressed interest, come together, and their first task is to develop a constitution. Then, when that is done, there is a formal agreement signed between that group and the Minister of Justice.

Mr. Mackintosh: So I take it then that the composition of this justice committee is similar to that of other youth justice committees? There are no particular positions in the community that are appointed to the justice committee?

Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct. There are no particular positions within the community which are required or are appointed.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is this committee the only one of its kind in Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am told, no, this is not the only group. There are approximately four or five other committees which have formal agreements with Prosecutions to deal with adult diversion.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister list those other committees?

Mrs. Vodrey: I do not have those available today, but I will see that the member receives them.

Mr. Mackintosh: Are these other committees new? Can the minister tell the committee roughly when these committees came into being?

Mrs. Vodrey: Some of the committees have been in existence for quite some time, but the movement into adult diversion is relatively new. I am told that it has been done approximately two years.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister know whether there are other adult committees in the works?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that at the moment, no, but we do expect as a result of the passage of Bill C-41 that there will be some additional interest.

Mr. Mackintosh: Has there been any study done of the effectiveness of these kinds of committees, especially considering the relapse rate of offenders?

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Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that there has been an informal review of young offenders and, for those young offenders who have qualified for the program, obviously nonhigh-risk young offenders, I am told that the success rate is in the range of 70 percent or higher, as high as 80 percent or slightly higher.

There is not any, at the moment, research that we are aware of right now, today, in the area of adults.

Mr. Mackintosh: I suppose the only statistic you can compare this to to determine whether this is an effective system to reduce relapse would be the relapse rate of lower-risk offenders going through the court system.

I am wondering if the minister can tell the committee how one judges whether 70 percent or 80 percent is a good number or not.

Mrs. Vodrey: One of the measurements of success would be for those young people who do not return, and so we are looking at a success rate of 70 percent or slightly better as being a fairly good success rate. However, it is true that we do not yet know whether those young offenders return as adult offenders.

But that is one measure, that they have not returned, certainly as young offenders, so we see that as one area of success.

The other part of the success, I believe, is the community opportunity to become involved. The community has expressed an interest to become involved at various points of the justice system. This is one way, and youth justice committees were one way that the community can become involved directly and see that they can perhaps have an influence over the ongoing behaviour of the person who is before them.

If we were looking at success, we might look at those two areas as possible ways to measure the success.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the Beausejour committee, for example, receive referrals directly from the police?

Mrs. Vodrey: To the best of our knowledge, I am told that the referral comes this way; from the police to the Crown, from the Crown to the youth justice committee. However, that is to the best of our knowledge at this point.

Mr. Mackintosh: The minister announced, I believe through the throne speech of the last session, that she or the government was considering--I think to use the minister's words--a more rigorous confinement in adult facilities. Would the minister tell the committee whether any changes have taken place in the adult correctional facilities now, following on that announcement?

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Mrs. Vodrey: We did announce as a government that we would be moving to rigorous confinement in Adult Corrections. We had spent the first part of my time as Justice minister really looking at some of the changes in the youth area, but it certainly seemed important that there should also be changes in the adult area.

There seemed to be periods of inmate idleness. Because we have inmates who are basically short stayers with us, they are sentenced to two years less a day or any time less than that, I was very concerned and our government was very concerned that they retain a sense of kind of the inner time clock of what is required for people when they live outside in the community, and that is that they have a sense of getting up and going to work and dealing with any interests or recreation after that had happened.

So we started to make changes within the adult institution to make it more challenging for inmates serving their sentences and also to much more closely resemble what life is like when they return back to the community. And that is an important part as well, because we are dealing with individuals who will return to the community, and we want to make sure that they have not lost the life skills or coping skills because their regime within the institution is not one that resembles what it is in the community. Rigorous confinement has meant more spartan conditions. It has meant reduced privileges. It has meant structured work programs as well as clear rules and consequences for negative behaviour. Some of the basic components of rigorous confinement that have been implemented in all of the institutions are the following.

First of all, a reduction in inmate idleness and increased work activities for inmates. Work programs have been increased, but we are looking at developing a prison industry strategy as a long-term objective to create more stable and more intensive work programs and focusing on self-sufficiency to offset costs as well as possibly some generation of revenue.

We are also looking at, secondly, increased community service work. The number of inmate work crews have been increased, and Corrections has been proactive in working with local communities to identify projects that the community would like to have done.

Thirdly, there has been a reduction in inmate privileges at all of the institutions. TV access has been restricted to evenings and weekends for adults. There has been an elimination of recreation during the workday. There is restricted access to telephone calls and restriction of institution visits to evenings and weekends.

Fourthly, there have been changes to the earned remission system. Instead of automatically awarding remission, Adult Corrections has implemented a policy that requires inmates to earn remission for industries and positive behaviour. Inmates refusing to participate in mandatory programs or who display negative behaviour will serve longer sentences. The earned remission will simply not be available to those people.

In the area of reading materials that are available within the institutions, it has been a concern of this government, first of all, that no pornographic material be within the institutions. It seemed also, because we had some people within our institutions who are there because of domestic violence or sexual assault, that there should be a much stricter set of restrictions placed, and so now there are simply no materials which deal with what some might consider pornographic material. Even those available over the counter to other people, those are not allowed now within our institutions.

Finally, there is a reduction of temporary absences. No temporary absences will be granted unless there is a low risk to the community or at least a manageable risk using very intensive supervision, and inmates with violent records certainly will have to have increased consideration for any temporary absences.

Mr. Mackintosh: With regard to an issue we discussed at length with the member for Wellington last go-around, the programming for abusers, for male abusers, can the minister tell the committee whether there is now in place a long-term treatment intervention program for male abusers?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, the long-term program has been established. There were two pilot groups which have gone through the long-term programming. There is now another group, a third group, which is going through the long-term programming.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee the date the pilot committees began--I guess, programs began?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am told that the groups were formed in December '94, that meetings began taking place in January '95, and the groups are six months in length. The third group which I spoke about now being in progress began in mid-June.

Mr. Mackintosh: How many individuals are in each program?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am told that there are 10 or 12 individuals to a group.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the committee how many hours each program has?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the hours of programming for the long-term group are 138 hours. If you met for three hours once a week, that would be approximately 46 weeks; by meeting twice a week, the program is six months in length.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister provide in writing the program details, in other words, the objectives and what the format of the program is? I wonder if she has a copy with her.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we do not have that with us. I can attempt to provide it to him orally, but I am certainly prepared to provide him with something in writing regarding that.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister then put on the record a description of the program and how it is delivered, and who it is delivered by and how it is funded? For example, is it delivered directly by staff of the department, or is it delivered by community agents?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I will provide more detailed information to the member, but what I have available to tell him now is that the program, the long-term program to deal with domestic abuse, spousal abuse, is a program which looks at education and also therapeutic techniques. It has a requirement of having offenders examine their own personal life--some insight is required--and their relationships and also their risk behaviour, so there is an element, I understand, in the person, again, gaining some insight into their behaviour. The educational side of the program would assist in trying to understand and perhaps cope with this behaviour, change the behaviour in the future.

There are approximately 250 staff within Corrections Division who are trained in the area of domestic abuse counselling. The training program they received was an eight-day long program. We also train volunteers as well as our staff within Corrections and we do hire some private counsellors to assist us.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is it the intention of the government to continue this programming using in-house staff, or is it the intention to contract out and make arrangements for the delivery of the program through community agencies, whatever they might be?

Mrs. Vodrey: Our intention is to continue the mixed delivery. We like to involve the community, where possible. However, we do have trained staff who are also available to us.

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Mr. Mackintosh: I would like the minister to provide a more detailed description of the program, including details as to the different components of the program, the different themes that are dealt with during the course of the program.

I just had two other questions. Does the minister have available figures showing the number of inmates in adult facilities, including at Portage, who would not be in there but for the nonpayment of fines?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we do not have that number here. We would estimate that it is small. However, we are not sure if we can actually get that number because it requires some systems capability. However, we will look into it and do our best.

Mr. Mackintosh: It would be a valuable statistic to have. I am just wondering if the minister, given the advice available to her today, can estimate what in their best collective judgment the percentage would be of those individuals.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I understand that the member is interested in this, but really it is very difficult for the staff to try and make that guess or estimate also being aware that this goes into the records of Hansard. So if he would be willing, we will see if that information is available. As I said, I also have been cautioned with the system's ability to be able to acquire it, but we will do our best to look into it for him.

Mr. Mackintosh: Regarding the sex offender notification scheme that is being implemented, it was our information that two high-risk sex offenders may have come into Manitoba after release from institutions outside of the province and that the police had not been notified of their presence in the city. I am wondering if the minister has informed herself on the facts.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the committee has certainly some independence in this area. Any referrals would go directly to the committee. There are two ways in which referrals may reach the committee: one is through Corrections, the other is through police. The police entry point is also where community members may approach the police with their concerns and then the police, based on their information, may decide to refer it or not. Because referrals go directly to the committee, I am not able to confirm to the member his question. I am told meeting dates and, obviously, an outcome if there is to be the release of any information about that individual. So I am not able to provide that information to him today.

Mr. Mackintosh: What assurances can the minister give that individuals released from institutions outside of Manitoba will be known to officials, so that this notification committee can have the opportunity of considering the offender?

Mrs. Vodrey: The assurances I am able to provide are that federal corrections is a partner on the community notification committee and process. They have been fully co-operative, and Headingley or our provincial Corrections is also a partner as well.

We have asked the federal government for a federal tracking system for high-risk offenders, people very likely, or considered likely, to offender again. When I was at the Ministers of Justice meeting, I made the point, particularly in relation to pedophiles, that treatment is sometimes not always effective. It may be effective in the short term but perhaps not in the long term, or it may not be that effective.

Where we have people released who have served their sentence within our institutions, we still need some way to be able to track those individuals across Canada. I proposed, in fact, a fairly specific scheme where there would be an application to the court by Corrections, and it would be the responsibility of a judge to make that determination, whether or not this individual would be part of this long-term tracking system. The individual would have an opportunity to apply to the court to have themselves removed from the tracking system based on certain criteria.

But, in relation to this tracking system, the federal government will have to demonstrate leadership because it is a tracking system which would be required across all of Canada.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister have an indication as to when the Sarah Kelly inquest report will be made available?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that we do not have an indication of a release time. All we have been told, I am informed, is that it will take some time, but we do not have any way to know exactly what that means.

Mr. Mackintosh: Did the minister have any staff present to review the evidence as it went in at the inquest?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, we had a Crown attorney and also Corrections officials. I can tell the member also that now we have established an interdepartmental committee of Health, Family Services and Justice to look at how we can share important information.

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Mr. Mackintosh: Who is represented on the committee?

Mrs. Vodrey: Can I just ask the member, is he asking which departments are on the committee or how many representatives from each area? I did tell him that the committee is made up interdepartmentally of representatives from Health, Family Services and Justice.

Mr. Mackintosh: No, I would like to know what positions are on that interdepartmental committee, what level, for example, in the bureaucracy is represented.

Mrs. Vodrey: From Corrections, it is area directors, and I understand directors of medical health, director of family services. This directors' level reports to a steering committee of assistant deputy ministers. The Crown is also represented, and the purpose of the group is to develop a protocol to provide for adequate sharing of information.

Mr. Mackintosh: Pass.

Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I just have some questions in regards to Adult Corrections. First of all, in regards to the sick leave at the different Adult Corrections facilities, I do not know if it is possible, if the information is available, but I guess per capita or according to the number of staff, what is the level of sick leave being taken at different Adult Corrections facilities in Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am prepared to provide the information to the member and to tell him that, in the information that I will provide, it is sick leave, including all sick leave, both long term and short term, and the sort of day kinds of leave. So in the numbers that are provided it will have to be viewed with that in mind.

Mr. Kowalski: Will I get it before next Estimates? What I am looking for, just to make sure that the information that is going to be given out meets the purposes, is to look at sick leave as an indication of morale in the different correctional facilities. I would like to see--I do not know if it will be as a percentage of staff hours or staff years to be useful, and the comparison to previous years to see if there is any indication that sick leave is increasing in any one correctional facility over previous years, and also if sick leave is higher per staff year in one correctional facility over another as an indication of morale, because morale is a pretty subjective matter.

Mrs. Vodrey: We will certainly provide the information, but I would caution the member that the statistics provided also include compassionate leave, also include parental leave, and so it will be very difficult, it seems to me, to try and then suggest that the numbers provided are actually tied to morale when it would be incidental in, certainly, cases of compassionate leave to tie number of days absent to a morale issue when it is really related to something altogether different, or the parental leave when it is related to something altogether different.

Mr. Kowalski: Yes, I understand that in itself. It is only one indicator. There are explanations. Also, looking for a pattern over years because, as a critic, of course, a critic often attracts phone calls and letters of complaint from staff, and quite often the question of morale is raised, and because that is subjective, I do not know if their opinions about morale in any correctional facility are a true reflection. Is it just because their morale is down?

So I invite the minister, also, to analyze that data as far as to watch for problems in the correctional facilities as far as morale, and I look forward to receiving that information from the minister.

Another question I had about Adult Corrections was at the Provincial Remand Centre, as far as uniform issues for the uniformed officers there, is there an entitlement each year for a certain number of pants or shirts, or is it as required? How is a uniform given to the uniformed staff at Provincial Remand Centre?

Mrs. Vodrey: In terms of the provision of uniforms, there is a scale of issue, I am told, and it operates this way. There are certain basic elements which are issued, and then those are replaced on an as-needed condition.

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Mr. Kowalski: At what level is the determination made? Is it at the supervisory level as to when a new pair of pants is required? The reason I ask is, I saw one pair of pants that were threadbare, that I would be ashamed to wear, and this person indicated that they had taken it to their supervisor and the supervisor said they were sufficient. So I am just asking, at what level is the decision made as to when an article is in need of replacement?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, it is always very difficult to speak to an individual case, and I do not know the circumstances of that case. Overall, it is an administrative supervisor who makes that decision. The onus is on staff to come forward to that administrative supervisor when uniforms are torn or frayed. So I am not able to give the member on that specific example any further information. That is the usual practice.

Mr. Kowalski: Yes, I was not expecting the minister to reply to any specific example. I was asking for the policy and procedure. The number of staff years allocated to the Provincial Remand Centre, has it changed in the past year?

Mrs. Vodrey: The staff at the Remand Centre has increased this year by three SYs.

Mr. Kowalski: The staff years--as far as now the configuration other than the addition of those three staff years, has the configuration at the different levels of management been changed at the Provincial Remand Centre?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am informed that there has been no change to the configuration of management at the Winnipeg Remand Centre.

Mr. Kowalski: I just want to confirm a question I believe I asked her in last year's Estimates, and I still keep receiving the same information. I want to be doubly sure that I understand correctly. When the hearing officer process was first instituted, I am repeatedly told that the Corrections lost one or more staff years from their staff allocation in order to budget for the hearing officers. Where the money came from was that Adult Corrections lost some staff years and transferred to whichever budget area that would cover the hearing officers. Could the minister confirm, as she did last year, that that did not happen, that there was no change in Adult Corrections staff years to facilitate the hearing officers?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I can confirm the answer. The administrative process was for the hearing officers, five permanent SYs were needed, five permanent SYs were transferred from Corrections to Courts, but in return Corrections received five term SYs, and the net effect has been the same.

Mr. Kowalski: I am going to ask some questions about procedures at the Remand Centre. Are there times of the day when the Remand Centre does not accept prisoners for lockup from any of the police services in Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am told that, yes, there is a period between 6:45 in the morning and 7:15 in the morning, and that half an hour period is the period in which cells are cleaned. It is important to clean the cells, as I am told, because within the cells there is often blood and vomit and other things which make it absolutely a requirement to have the cells cleaned at that time.

Mr. Kowalski: At shift changes, at meal times, does the Provincial Remand Centre receive prisoners from the Winnipeg Police Service?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am told yes. There is a shift change in that cell cleaning time in the morning, that 6:45 to 7:15 time, but other shift changes, I am told, yes, they continue to accept prisoners.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 4. Corrections (b) Adult Corrections (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $27,543,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $5,374,700--pass; (3) External Agencies and Halfway Houses $341,700.

Mr. Mackintosh: Are we still on appropriation 4.(b)?

Mr. Chairperson: 4.(b), yes. Item 4.(b)(3) External Agencies and Halfway Houses.

Mr. Mackintosh: I am wondering where that item is on page 63 of the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review.

Mrs. Vodrey: It is included in the line entitled Programs and Grants on 4B in the Supplementary Estimates.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister list what the external agencies are that are being referred to in that line?

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the external agencies are the Native Clan, the John Howard Society, the Elizabeth Fry Society and the John Howard Offender Employment Program. Then there is also the United Church, another to the Native Clan, the St. Norbert Foundation, the Salvation Army, The Pas Friendship Centre.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister explain what the amount is used for at The Pas Friendship Centre?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, that is a contract between The Pas institution and the Friendship Centre in The Pas to deliver culturally appropriate programming within the institution and also to provide a network to re-establish contact with reserves or home communities.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister list the halfway houses that are included in that line?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the halfway houses are with the Native Clan, St. Norbert Foundation, the United Church and the Salvation Army.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 4.(b)(3) External Agencies and Halfway Houses $341,700--pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($80,000).

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister describe where the recoveries are from?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, it is recovery of wages paid to us by other departments for the work of inmate work crews.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister advise what the actual was for '94-95?

Mrs. Vodrey: The amount recovered in '94-95 is $61,500.

Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister have that figure for '93-94?

Mrs. Vodrey: The amount for that year was $62,100.

Mr. Kowalski: Just before we leave this section in the budget, in last year's Estimates, I requested a tour of the youth correctional facility in Portage la Prairie and the Manitoba Youth Centre. I thank the minister and her staff for arranging that.

This year I would like to continue the practice of touring some of the other correctional facilities. I do not want to put an administrative burden on the minister's staff, and I would not abuse the staff's time, but I would like to continue visiting some of the other correctional facilities, specifically Milner Ridge correctional facility and The Pas, Brandon and Dauphin for this year, if at all possible. If the minister could undertake to facilitate those tours, I would appreciate it.

Mrs. Vodrey: Certainly, provided the member is able to have transportation to those facilities, by appointment, we will be happy to arrange a visit.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 4.(c) Correctional Youth Centres (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $9,433,300.

Mr. Mackintosh: Perhaps the minister could also extend that request to myself on appointment and by arrangement with the minister's office. I would appreciate it.

I also want to put on the record my appreciation for the help of the staff for my visit to the Manitoba Youth Centre. I just want to make sure that is all right with the minister and just put that on the record.

Mrs. Vodrey: I appreciate the comments regarding visits by the member to our youth institutions, and, as I said, provided the member is able to reach his destination by appointment, we will be happy to see that he has a visit to the other institutions.

Mr. Mackintosh: I understand that a fence is currently being constructed around the Agassiz Youth Centre.

Can the minister provide a breakdown of the escapes from that institution for the past four years? I do not want included in those statistics residents who did not return from leaves or absences.

Mrs. Vodrey: The member asked for a four-year period. In '91-92, Agassiz Youth Centre, 15 escapes; '92-93, 11 escapes; '93-94, 28 escapes; '94-95, 33 escapes.

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Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister have a number for the year, April 1, 1995, to date?

(Mr. Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair)

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, since April 1 there have been no instances from the Agassiz Youth Centre.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister advise what has been the range of the count at Ridge Point since that camp was established?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the range has been 11 to 20 individuals.

Mr. Mackintosh: At the minister's announcement in September on changes to Youth Corrections, a daily routine comparing old and new was provided to those in attendance indicating that organized recreation began at 9:30 p.m. going to 11 p.m.. Would the minister advise whether that is accurate?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the schedule has been revised. The revision is recreational activities may take place from six in the evening till between 9 p.m. and 9:30 p.m., and at that point there is a half an hour journal time and lights out are at ten o'clock.

Mr. Mackintosh: The wake-up time is noted as 6 a.m. Is that the case for all residents?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, it is the wake-up time for all residents in boot camp. It is not necessarily the time for rising for those who are there on remand or in open custody.

Mr. Mackintosh: What is the wake-up time for those in remand or open custody?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, it is 7 a.m. or 7:15 a.m.

Mr. Mackintosh: Could the minister describe what television services are available to the residents of the youth correctional facilities? If she has to go facility by facility or level by level, that would be appreciated.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, within the boot camp model, there is no leisure time television. Television is only available for educational purposes. Some television may be used with tapes for behaviour management programs.

Within the open custody, Ridge Point, there is television between 7:30 and 9:30 available for recreation, that being not the boot camp model but the wilderness work camp model.

It is the same on remand as well. It would be some hours of availability in the evening for those on remand and not during the day.

Mr. Mackintosh: What kind of evening programming is available in that instance?

Mrs. Vodrey: May I just clarify with the member, is he asking about television programming or recreational programming?

Mr. Mackintosh: Television programming.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, in those facilities where television is available, I am told that they are screened very carefully. Programming is screened very carefully to avoid any programming which deals with violence or the kind of offences that might bring young people to the institution. Those are not available for young people.

The kinds of programming that would be available would be more programming dealing with kind of prosocial behaviour, the behaviour that we would be looking for young people to engage in when they are in the community.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister tell the committee where the programming is from? What channels are available for example? Is there a satellite dish or is it cable or is it just video tape?

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, I am told that there is no satellite reception in our facilities. To our knowledge there is not cable at Agassiz. We would have to check if cable is available at the Youth Centre.

In terms of any movies that might be available to be shown on VHS, movies are screened very carefully. It is extremely limited. The whole ability to watch television as a recreational activity does not sound like it is very attractive because it is extremely limited.

Mr. Mackintosh: What recreational programs are in Agassiz and the Youth Centre?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the kind of recreational activities available at Agassiz and at the Manitoba Youth Centre are group activities such as baseball, hockey, volleyball. There is also a gym. Then for individuals for recreational activity there are individual table games.

Mr. Mackintosh: Are there pool tables and ping-pong tables in either of the facilities?

Mrs. Vodrey: There are no pool tables or ping-pong tables in the boot camp model. They are, however, available in the remand model.

Mr. Mackintosh: Are they also available to the open-custody residents?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, I am told they are available to open custody.

Mr. Mackintosh: Regarding the school programming in Agassiz and the Youth Centre, the minister described how the school programming is devised. For example, is the Department of Education involved at all in setting up the school program and the curriculum?

Mrs. Vodrey: Within our institutions we follow the provincial curriculum which is set by the Department of Education. Where we have special courses for residents, things like food services, we make sure that they are accredited. We want students or individuals to be able to transfer their credits when they leave the institutions into an educational setting in the community.

Mr. Mackintosh: Are the learning materials in the institutions the same as those in Winnipeg school divisions?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, what we have is a liaison teacher. The liaison teacher will go to the school division from which the young person has come and make sure that we are aware of the kind of materials which are used for that grade level by that division. We will acquire those materials or have them loaned to us so that the young people can continue with their studies or at least return to their studies when they return back to the community, because we know many of these young people have become disengaged from school learning. The opportunity within the facilities is to attempt to re-engage them and re-engage them into the kind of process that they would see when they return to their home communities.

In addition, our teachers at the Youth Centre and at Agassiz not only have the certification to teach, but they also are trained in special education because we recognize that many of these young people do have some special learning needs, and this is an opportunity to try and do some remediation in that area.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is there recognition by the teaching staff of the demands of learning disorders within the institutions?

Mrs. Vodrey: I wonder if the member could repeat the question, perhaps elaborate on the question as well. Having said that the teachers have special education qualifications, I am not quite sure what the follow-up question was regarding learning disorders.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is there programming tailored to suit the needs of each resident considering that some of them may have learning disorders?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, yes, I am told that it is individualized programming for the individual student.

Mr. Mackintosh: Do either of the youth facilities, or Ridge Point for that matter, have laboratory classrooms available, whether it be chemistry or biology or computer?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we do have computers and computer programs which are available. We have not had students who have been working at the level for chemistry and physics requiring laboratories. I am told that many of the young people who are there are students who are often at a literacy level of perhaps to a Grade 6 or Grade 7 level.

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Mr. Mackintosh: Are there vocational programs offered in either of the institutions?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the vocational programming which is available is one in food services. Manitoba Youth Centre has that program accredited. Agassiz Youth Centre is working towards their accreditation.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister advise what the range of the count is in her so-called boot camps in the two facilities?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, at Agassiz Youth Centre in the boot camp model as of May '95, 52; at the Manitoba Youth Centre in the boot camp area as of May '95, 52.

Mr. Mackintosh: Who makes a decision as to what area of the facility a resident will be put into and what are the criteria?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, it is the judge who would make that decision in the disposition of open or closed custody.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister then saying that if one is sentenced to closed custody, one is housed in her so-called boot camp?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, that is right. When the sentence is closed custody, the individual then moves into the boot camp.

Mr. Mackintosh: That should be the so-called boot camp.

I notice that the minister--

Point of Order

Mrs. Vodrey: On a point of order, Mr. Chair, the editorial comments of the member, who never supported boot camp from the beginning, I believe, are out of line.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Radcliffe): The Chair hears the point from the Minister of Justice. I believe that the members will keep all language parliamentary, and the Chair now recognizes the member for St. Johns.

* * *

Mr. Mackintosh: The minister talks about what different people support. It is obvious this minister does not support boot camps either because there are no boot camps in Manitoba in any way, shape or form.

In the minister's announcement on the changes to Youth Corrections it states: the programming at Ridge Point will prepare young offenders for reintegration into the community. Would she tell the committee what the reintegration program is, how it is structured, what its components are?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, there are three parts to this program. The first is a control plan developed by the youth, and it is monitored when the individual is released; secondly, a family intervention plan, crisis intervention where actual counselling is done with the family; and third, a job re-entry or school re-entry portion.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, can the minister describe what--she has described what the objectives are, I guess, but how is reintegration prepared? I mean, what activities does the youth undergo to prepare for reintegration?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, on the development plan, the young person has to look at what in fact got him into trouble and then has to develop a plan of how to avoid getting into that trouble again. That is the relapse prevention. Then also there are reintegration visits for the young person into the community.

Mr. Mackintosh: What happens during those visits? Where are the visits to?

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the visits are to where the individual will be released to. There are reintegration workers who work with them. They monitor the process. They make sure that the individual abides by the condition of the temporary release.

Mr. Mackintosh: Finally, with regard to the supervision program, is that best dealt with under Community Corrections?

Mrs. Vodrey: We could deal with that component now.

Mr. Mackintosh: Could the minister describe then what changes have taken place with regard to the supervision program? I understand that there have been changes to the Youth Probation Services in east Winnipeg and that there have been some changes at the Manitoba Youth Centre. I am wondering if the minister could describe then the program with those two changes included.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, the way we have done this is we have taken the Release Preparation Unit and the Community Supervision Unit and we have put it together into one unit called the Custody Support Unit. This unit operates under the supervision of an acting director.

We have increased the staff from four to seven who are working in this area. Plus we have three reintegration workers who monitor individuals when they are in the community. That monitoring can take place at any hour whatsoever.

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Mr. Mackintosh: Could the minister confirm that the Winnipeg Youth Crime Intervention Team has now been disbanded?

Mrs. Vodrey: No, I cannot confirm that. I would be happy to look into that if the member has some information that he would like to provide to me.

Mr. Mackintosh: It is just my understanding through one of the daily papers that the police were going to disband that. Now I am actually thinking it was regarding the youth gang unit. I think that is what is was. Perhaps that is the minister's understanding as well.

Mrs. Vodrey: I think the member is referring to a recent announcement by the City of Winnipeg Police Services and the RCMP and, I believe, the Brandon Police Service are also a part of this new task force which is focusing on gang activity and other important activity that they have identified.

It did not affect, to my knowledge, the function of the Youth Crime Intervention Team, which is a horizontal team of sharing of information from schools, Prosecutions and police and so on. I do not believe that affected or closed the youth crime unit of the Winnipeg Police Services either. However, there was an announcement of the formation of this new task force.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister aware as to whether the intervention team is continuing to meet and, if so, when it last met?

Mrs. Vodrey: I cannot give the member a date of the last meeting. I certainly have not heard that it was disbanded. It was my understanding that this is still operating, but I do not have any of the dates.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister describe any activities or any programs, any actions taken by the intervention team since it was formed?

Mrs. Vodrey: I can give the member information on one of the activities which I think was quite important. It was a conference on gang activity. It was a one day conference that was put on for the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.

In terms of further information, I would be happy to find out for the member. As he knows, the work of that intervention team is multidisciplinary or horizontal as I described it, and it was made up of members of the Winnipeg Police Services, a representative from the Department of Education and representatives from Prosecutions and others. I am happy to look into the activities of that group.

One of the important matters that they were to deal with was, where possible, some information sharing.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister respond to the statement that, since her announcement in September, the residents at Agassiz have been involved in less community work?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, there has been some change in that, when we moved to the boot camp model, which is a closed custody model, there is tighter security, and we want to as careful as we can to avoid, certainly where possible, escapes. However, the open custody model continues to participate in the community, doing community and park maintenance and road cleanup, for example.

Mr. Mackintosh: Before September, was there a closed custody unit at Agassiz?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I am told that there were, I believe, two units, and those two units were also under very tight security.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister advise of the total number of residents in the two closed custody units at Agassiz, I guess, for the period before September? What was the count range in the last year?

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Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that what we have available from before September is just the global numbers, which would include open and closed custody, which were in the range of the population, about 72 to 85.

Mr. Mackintosh: Well, is the minister aware whether the open custody numbers, open custody count at Agassiz has changed since September?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that it does not appear that those numbers have changed very much.

Mr. Mackintosh: Has the total number of beds at Agassiz changed since September?

Mrs. Vodrey: The answer is no.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the government involved in any actions to establish wilderness camps, in the true sense of the word, in Manitoba?

Mrs. Vodrey: When I made the announcement, I said that we would first look at the facilities that we had begun with. There is an evaluation. The evaluation is expected to be completed at a point in '96. When we have had an opportunity to look at that evaluation, then decisions will be made.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the government involved in any discussions at all with the First Nations community about the wilderness camps?

Mrs. Vodrey: Some First Nations communities have submitted proposals. The proposals have been reviewed with them. Some First Nations communities have been asked to provide further information. Some who have been asked to provide further information have not done so yet. But they are aware that this is a strategy that we said was a longer term strategy. We were looking at what we had as a government and then we would be looking at other kinds of proposals which came forward. But decisions have to be made incrementally.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister aware as to whether the departmental officials have advised the First Nations community that the government does not intend to establish any wilderness camps in the next, at least, fiscal year?

Mrs. Vodrey: To my knowledge, the way that it has been put to communities is that there is to be an evaluation first of the facilities that we had begun with. Following that evaluation, decisions will be made. However, we have not closed the door on discussions, on reviewing proposals, and on letting groups know what is required for proposals to have consideration in the future.

Mr. Mackintosh: I note that there is no breakdown under Other Expenditures for (1) wilderness camps; (2) Ridge Point; and (3) the Intensive Custody Unit of Brandon. Can the minister advise--first of all, with regard to wilderness camps, is there any appropriation or amount put aside for wilderness camps in the event that something should arise?

Mrs. Vodrey: There are no funds identified separately for further development of wilderness camps in this fiscal year. I believe that was the question.

Mr. Mackintosh: Where are the appropriations for Brandon and Ridge Point?

Mrs. Vodrey: Those appropriations are included within Adult Corrections.

Mr. Chairperson: Item 4. Corrections (c) Correctional Youth Centres (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $9,433,300--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $985,100--pass.

4.(d) Community Corrections (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $7,350,300.

Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister advise the number of SYs for probation officers broken down by adult and youth?

Mrs. Vodrey: I am told that that is somewhat a difficult figure. We know that in Winnipeg we have approximately 24 probation officers dedicated to youth, and there are over 40 who are working with adults. However, throughout the province we have approximately 100 other probation officers who do work with both youth and adults.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Chair, let me correct the record. We have a total of 100 probation officers.

Mr. Mackintosh: It is my understanding that the job of a probation officer includes both the preparation of predisposition reports and supervision. Can the minister tell me if that is correct?

Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Mackintosh: Is there any ongoing review or any review contemplated as to when and how predisposition reports should be ordered and how they are prepared?

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Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, there is a committee ongoing. This has been important because Bill C-37 broadens the scope of the predisposition reports, and I understand that there is a meeting set for the week of July 10. I am not sure of the exact date. That meeting will involve the Chief Judge and staff from Corrections and Crown attorneys to look at the issue of predisposition reports, the nature of those reports and the preparation of those reports.

Mr. Mackintosh: Have there been any adjustments to the number of probation officers as a result of the demands being placed on them for the preparation of predisposition reports and in light of the increased number of youth on probation? I specified youth.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, there has been some reassignment of work. One area is in the fine-option area which has allowed the assignment of two staff years to Probation, and also in the administrative area in commitment accounting which has freed up two administrative staff years, and then there has also been reassignment of some Probation people from Adult Corrections into Probation.

Mr. Mackintosh: I have heard that the probation officers are barely keeping above water with the demands being placed on them, and that there are extensive delays in the provision of predisposition reports which is in part causing backlogs in the youth court and slow turnarounds in disposing of cases even on guilty pleas.

I an wondering if the minister has any further plans or the department has plans to deal with this problem.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, we have taken some additional action and that is the inclusion on the agenda of the judges and the probation committee, chaired by Judge Cramer, the issue to look at some possible action and also planning for a modification of the court report format to simplify and reduce preparation time while maintaining the essential content.

Mr. Mackintosh: The minister had been talking about a youth advisory body. I am wondering if the minister could advise of the status of that.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Chair, if the member is referring to the youth council, which we are interested in putting together a representative of youth across the province, we had an individual who was willing to chair that council or committee. We were prepared to work with that individual to identify youth around the province.

However, as happens with young people, they do not stay young people forever. Unfortunately, or I guess fortunately for him, he graduated from high school. In the year that he was appointed he graduated from high school and made the decision to move on in his own working life and was not able, I believe, he did not feel, to then work on the youth council or to feel representative of youth.

We have been examining ways to set up this council because we are very interested and made a commitment following the Summit on Youth Crime and Violence to bring together young people who had a commitment dealing with youth crime and violence and to look at some positive ways that they could influence both to make sure that government was aware of issues which were of importance and be available to the community as well.

The way that we have been dealing with it is through the No Need to Argue program--

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.

Report

Mr. Ben Sveinson (Deputy Chairperson of Committees): Mr. Chairperson, in the section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, considering the Estimates item, Urban Economic Development Initiatives, the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) moved

THAT line 27.7, Urban Economic Development Initiatives, be reduced by $1,891,304 that is allocated for Winnipeg Jets operating losses.

The member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) then moved that the question be now put.

This motion was defeated on a voice vote. A formal vote was then requested by the honourable member for Thompson and the honourable member for Wellington.

Formal Vote

Mr. Chairperson: A formal vote having been requested, call in the members.

All sections in Chamber for formal vote.

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The question before the House is, shall the question be now put?

A COUNT-OUT VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 47, Nays 3.

Mr. Chairperson: The motion is accordingly passed.

We will now deal with the main motion. The main motion was a motion brought up by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) in the section of the Committee of Supply in Room 254.

It has been moved by the honourable member for Thompson

THAT line 27, Urban Economic Development Initiatives, be reduced by $1,891,304 that is allocated for Winnipeg Jets operating losses.

Voice Vote

Mr. Chairperson: All those in favour of the motion, please say yea.

Some Honourable Members: Yea.

Mr. Chairperson: All those opposed, please say nay.

Some Honourable Members: Nay.

Mr. Chairperson: In my opinion, the Nays have it. The motion is defeated.

Formal Vote

Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): I request a recorded vote.

Mr. Chairperson: A recorded vote having been requested, call in the members.

Order, please. The question before the House is on the motion by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton)

THAT line 27, Urban Economic Initiatives, be reduced by $1,891,304 that is allocated for the Winnipeg Jets operating losses.

All those in favour of the motion, please rise.

A COUNT-OUT VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 24, Nays 26.

Mr. Chairperson: The motion is accordingly defeated.

The hour being 6 p.m., committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

IN SESSION

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Marcel Laurendeau): The hour being 6 p.m., this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. (Friday).