LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF
Friday, June 18, 1993
The House met at 10 a.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING REPORTS BY
STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES
Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has
adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report the same and asks leave to
sit again.
I move, seconded by the
honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the
committee be received.
Motion agreed to.
Mr. Jack Reimer (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on
Public Utilities and Natural Resources):
Mr.
Speaker, I beg to present the Fifth Report of the Committee on Public Utilities
and Natural Resources.
Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Mr. Speaker, your Standing Committee on Public
Utilities and Natural Resources presents the following as its Fifth Report.
Your committee met on
Wednesday, June 16, 1993, at 7 p.m. in Room 255 of the
Mr. Donald Vernon,
Chairperson, provided such information as was requested with respect to the
Annual Report and business of the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management
Corporation.
Your committee has
considered the Annual Report of the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management
Corporation for the year ended December 31, 1992, and has adopted the same as
presented.
All of which is
respectfully submitted.
Mr. Reimer: I move,
seconded by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the
report of the committee be received.
Motion agreed to.
MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS
Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement.
On April 28 of this
year, I announced that, due to the enormous success of Manitoba HydroBonds and
the continued desire of Manitobans to invest in their province, the first issue
of Manitoba Builder Bonds would go on sale May 25.
It gives me great
pleasure to rise in the House today to announce that over 22,000 Manitobans
have purchased a total of $340 million of Manitoba Builder Bonds.
Proceeds from the sale
will provide a local source of funds to keep
Mr. Speaker, I would
like to extend my gratitude to the people of our province who have shown pride
and confidence in
Thank you.
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the total sum of money invested
by Manitobans is indeed positive. I will
have to evaluate the interest rate policies of the government for those bonds
in terms of a benefit to
We would congratulate
the government in their so‑called Builder Bonds, raising $340 million,
which, Mr. Speaker, will almost cover one‑third of the debt of $862
million that they ran up last year, a record debt in
This will help deal with
their lack of revenues because of the declining economy, the declining job
situation in
It will cover almost one‑third
of the deficit of the Filmon government from last year. Congratulations.
Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne):
Mr.
Speaker, I feel that I should rise and congratulate the Minister of Finance
(Mr. Manness). He has proved beyond the
shadow of a doubt when you pay commissions above the market level and you pay
an interest rate above market, that you can sell a lot of bonds. I think it is helpful to have that proved one
more time. However, I think what this
does show is that the people of
* (1005)
Introduction of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to
Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the loge to
my left, where we have with us this morning Madame Huguette Boucher‑Bacon,
who is a member of the Quebec National Assembly.
On behalf of all
honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning.
Also with us this
morning, we have from the Sir William Osler School 23 English language students
under the direction of Ms. Frances Molaro and Ms. Kathy Angst. This school is located in the constituency of
the honourable member for
On behalf of all
honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Video Lottery Terminals
Social Costs
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).
Mr. Speaker, we have
been asking for some time now on the social and economic impact of the massive
expansion of gambling under the Filmon administration over the last couple of
years. (interjection) Well, VLTs is a unique Filmon project in
Last week, I asked the
Premier about the situation, and since then, it has been reported to us that
some $10 million has been raised in profits from VLTs for rural hotels. The Premier could not indicate to us last
week the social costs of that.
Could the Premier
indicate today what the social impact has been of the $10 million in profits
that have gone to hotels in the massive expansion of VLTs in rural
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister charged with the
administration of The
Mr. Speaker, we do know
that there were many rural hotels that were on the verge of closing. As a result of the video lottery program, I
believe most hotels have hired additional people, so that has created jobs in
rural
* (1010)
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker,
I would again go back to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).
Last week, I raised the
issue on the general side of the social impact, the fact the government had not
studied the social impact of their expansion policies, unilateral policies, and
the Premier said the situation was hypothetical. I want to give the Premier a real example of
what is going on with this government's policies.
We have learned this
week that the milk program that was sponsored by the legion in Churchill has
been cancelled from kindergarten to Grade 6 at the Duke of Marlborough School,
because this money that was coming from the legions out of their profits is no
longer available. In fact, the legion in
that community is losing money.
Is this the impact of
the government's policies and their expansion changes? Are these the kinds of things the Premier
evaluated? What is he going to say to
the children who relied on milk from the legions?
This is not a
hypothetical question. I am sure the
Premier (Mr. Filmon) can answer this. I
am sure he studied it ahead of time.
What is the impact of these changes, Mr. Speaker, in terms of those
children from kindergarten to Grade 6?
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, we do know
that gross bingo revenues throughout rural
We do know the
communities' organizations lost $440,000.
We put back into rural
Video Lottery Terminals
Social Costs
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier, who has been in
charge of this massive expansion, this massive expansion without public
hearings, without any social impact studies, without any economic impact
studies in terms of the jobs that are going to be lost, cannot answer any
questions.
Mr. Speaker, what will
the Premier advise the families and children of Churchill, which is just one
example of many where support programs have been cancelled by nonprofit
organizations, like the milk program in Churchill, at the same time rural
hotels are making $10 million?
What answer does he have
for those children who required the nutritional support of the legion, that milk
program, in Churchill from kindergarten to Grade 6?
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the expansion of Lotteries in
Mr. Speaker, I might
tell you that the formation of the casino in
So it is hypocritical of
the member to ask this kind of‑‑but I know it is typical. It is typical because that is what he does
all the time. He did not listen to the
answer from the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, and that is‑‑
An Honourable Member: Tell
those kids in Churchill. It is happening
in every community in
Mr. Filmon: Please,
Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member to be polite enough to listen to the
answer. He did not listen to the answer
from the Minister responsible for Lotteries.
That is why he keeps having to repeat the question.
She has told him very
clearly that the Lotteries Foundation is putting more money back to those
nonprofit organizations, by $100,000, more money back to the legions and
nonprofits than they have been losing as a result of the VLTs, Mr. Speaker.
So the money is
there. It is their choice as to how they
are going to distribute it.
Mr. Doer: Mr.
Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier a very simple question.
The legion in Churchill
is now losing money compared to previous years.
It can no longer support the milk program at Churchill.
Did the Premier take
this into consideration when they expanded VLTs under their administration in
1991? How will he deal with the problem
or the reality that milk for kids from kindergarten to Grade 6 has been
cancelled for next year?
Mr. Filmon: Mr.
Speaker, the member opposite will not hear.
Because of the program
of the Lotteries Foundation, more money is being given back to the legions,
$100,000 more than they have been losing by virtue of the lack of selling of
break‑open tickets. So they do
have the money. It is a question of
where they put it.
* (1015)
Mr. Doer: Mr.
Speaker, the Premier should face reality.
The minister has confirmed that the private hotels are going to get a
$10‑million profit based on the Filmon policy of expanded gambling. On the other side of the equation‑‑(interjection)
You know, only the Conservatives could have an automaton response like that
when a milk program has been cancelled for children, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, at the same
time, the legion is losing $6,800 a month, and that is impacting on programs
like kids going to the peace camp in the summer‑‑that is being
cancelled next year‑‑and the milk program.
I would like to ask the
Premier: Did he take these programs into
consideration when he went with the massive profits for private hotels and the
massive decline in revenues for nonprofit organizations and the decline in support
for many needed programs, including milk, in the community of Churchill?
Mr. Filmon: Mr.
Speaker, we find it interesting to note that the member opposite is advocating
that we should not have done anything for rural hotels, that we should have let
them close and let all those jobs in rural
It has already been said
by the Hotel Association that more than a dozen hotels in rural
Mr. Speaker, the legions
of this province, as a result of the announcement the Minister responsible for
Lotteries (Mrs. Mitchelson) made, have a hundred and sixty thousand additional
dollars being given to them by the Lotteries Foundation. That is additional money they can use for the
summer legion camps, for the milk program and anything else they choose.
Impact on Nonprofit
Organizations
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, if the economy was not
contracting by such a great deal under the Filmon Conservatives, perhaps we
would not have had these problems with rural hotels. There certainly was not the problem during
the 1980s.
Premier Godfather over there has no understanding of what his
policies are, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order,
please.
Mr. Doer: I
withdraw that comment.
Mr. Speaker: I would
like to thank the honourable Leader of the Opposition for withdrawing.
Mr. Doer: Mr.
Speaker, this is a serious question. The
Premier, last week, would not answer questions about how many legions would
close and what would the impact be on communities. He was able to answer today that they
believed, hypothetically, that hotels would close if they did not expand VLTs.
Can the Premier please
tell us today, what is the impact of the change and expansion of VLTs on
nonprofit organizations, nonprofit grants?
They had an impact study on rural hotels before they expanded. Can he put on the table the impact on
nonprofit organizations?
Surely they have done
the same impact study on nonprofit organizations as they have on profit‑making
hotels.
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, it is that kind of slick, five‑second
clip shot that has the member where he is in the editorial cartoon today, stuck
in the mud.
He was given the
information, Mr. Speaker, which is that the analysis of the losses due to
reduction in break‑open tickets has resulted in the Lotteries Foundation
compensating legions and nonprofit organizations by $540,000. That is what the analysis produced, and for a
loss of $440,000, they were compensated with an additional $540,000. That is the study and that is the analysis
that was done.
* (1020)
Ladco Development
Agreement
Construction Start
Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister
of Housing.
In May of 1989, the then‑Minister
of Housing announced with great fanfare a joint venture with long‑time
Tory supporters, Ladco Ltd., to develop land in
Well, Mr. Speaker,
construction has now begun, and the market is even worse. There was a 28 percent drop in the number of
housing starts in
My question for the
minister: Why is the government choosing
now to start this development of 476 acres, some 1,900 lots, when there is no
market, and far from making a profit, how much is this going to cost the taxpayers
of this province for upscale housing in south St. Boniface?
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister
of Housing): Mr. Speaker, the
The joint‑venture
agreement calls for Ladco, who is a very experienced land developer in this
province, who has had significant success over the past 30 or more years‑‑called
upon their expertise in this matter.
They have undertaken
it. They feel it is appropriate, and it
is proving that way, that about 150 lots will be brought on stream during
1993. Of those 150 lots, I understand
that more than half of them are already sold.
Consultations
Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the minister has indicated that he
consulted Ladco, and they are part of the joint venture, and, in fact, many of
their subsidiaries are doing the subtrade work on the sites.
Who did the minister
consult besides Ladco, who has a vested interest in this, before deciding to
commit millions and millions of dollars of taxpayers' money for upscale housing
in
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): I do not think the Leader of the third
opposition party heard the answer to his first question.
The proof of the
pudding, Mr. Speaker, is in the eating‑‑a hundred and fifty lots
developed, over half already sold.
MHRC Expenditures
Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this project is 476 acres and,
potentially, 1,900 lots.
Now, my question for the
minister: How much money is Ladco and
the subsidiaries owned by Ladco going to be paid this construction season by
the taxpayers of the province for these new homes in this area? How much money is going to be paid out from
the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, their share to Ladco and their
subsidiaries, this construction season?
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, there is a very
comprehensive agreement relating to the construction and development of this
particular subdivision.
Mr. Speaker, if you look
at the history of subdivisions, particularly in that area of
So these things do not
occur overnight. They occur in phases as
the market demands them. Mr. Speaker,
the market demand has been indicated, that the estimated number of lots to be
brought on stream in 1993 are 150. More
than half are already sold, so I think it has been a prudent and reasonable
position to move forward to.
APM Management
Consultants
Contract Termination
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):
Mr.
Speaker, the government and their U.S. multimillion dollar consultant missed
the first major deadline in their multimillion dollar contract by failing to
sign the five project agreements by May 31.
Will the minister now do
the right thing and allow the contract to terminate so the millions of dollars
slated to go to the U.S.‑based multimillion dollar consultant can now go
directly to health care for the citizens of
* (1025)
Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I at least give my honourable
friend one accolade here. He is
consistent in his failure to recognize the process that has been engaged,
wherein this process at St. Boniface Hospital and Health Sciences Centre has
encouraged government to provide casino revenues to fund, wherein we expect to
be able to maintain quality and level of services at our hospitals, provide an
opportunity for more hands‑on care delivery by nurses and other care
professionals which will improve the quality of patient care in this process at
the same time that it has an opportunity to reduce overall budgetary demands
the taxpayers are currently borrowing to finance.
I at least appreciate
that my honourable friend does not want to improve health care, does not want
to change the system, is still living in the past and is still afraid of the
future.
Health Sciences Centre
Project Agreement
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):
Mr.
Speaker, can the minister confirm that a project agreement was signed this week
with the Health Sciences Centre calling for a $36‑million reduction in
their budget over the next three years through work restructuring and budget
reductions to that institution?
Can he confirm that this
project agreement was signed this week?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I
think in the first instance, my honourable friend said we were not proceeding
with the contract. Now my honourable
friend is saying we are proceeding with the contract.
What I would like to
tell my honourable friend is when we conclude the second phase of the
agreement, I will be announcing the appropriate details so my honourable friend
can stop his speculation and rumourmongering.
APM Management
Consultants
Contract Renegotiations
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, they missed the deadline, and I
have information that one of the agreements was signed this week, now two weeks
after the deadline.
Mr. Speaker, my final
supplementary to the minister: Now that
they are renegotiating, will the minister reconsider the very, very generous
payment of expenses, up to $800,000 from St.
Will the government
reconsider those very generous payments to the consultant that are coming
directly from patient care, now that they are in the midst of renegotiating
these terms of the contract?
Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I sense a slight shift in my
honourable friend's position here.
Now he appears to be
encouraging us to enter into the agreement, because now he sees the long‑term
benefit to the health care system of
Now at least my
honourable friend is coming a little ways toward understanding the necessity of
change in health care that is happening from New Democratic British Columbia to
Liberal
Reduced Workweek
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, we are just beginning to hear and
the public is beginning to understand what the impact of Bill 22 will mean for
Manitobans who need essential services. Not only will health care and education
be undermined by the impact of Bill 22, but there are other essential services
as well.
Mr. Speaker, my question
is to the Minister of Highways and Transportation.
Can the Minister of
Highways and Transportation tell us whether any roads or highways will be
closed as a result of Bill 22?
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and
Transportation): No,
Mr. Speaker, they will not be closed.
Ferry Schedule
Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Then can the Minister of Highways explain why
the people in
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and
Transportation): Mr.
Speaker, as this program and the decisions this government made evolved,
considerations were given to where there was a necessity to continue to have
our people operating, and that will be the case at
I want to tell the
members of the House, as well, in my department there have been exemptions made
to allow the construction industry to keep on operating. So in certain areas where we feel there was a
need, we have made adjustments for that, and we know it will work.
* (1030)
Mr. Storie: Mr.
Speaker, this is the only access to this community. It only operates during the summer months,
the ferry. Six days is an inordinate
amount of time. It is the only community
in
My question to the
minister: Is it okay for the government
to operate bingo palaces on the weekends?
Is it acceptable for a community to be shut out of the world for six
days during the summer?
Mr. Driedger: Mr.
Speaker, I will check into the matter, because I have received exemptions for
the construction industry.
I will check and see
what is happening with the South Indian ferry, because in certain cases, we
have made provisions that people could take the time off in the off‑season
wintertime.
I will review this and
make sure I have a full understanding of it.
If that is the case, I will get a response back to the member.
Mr. Storie: Mr.
Speaker, will the minister then allow the ferry to operate in the community of
Mr. Driedger: I
repeat, I will review the situation, and based on what the circumstances are, I
will reply back to the member on that.
Video Lottery Terminals
Impact on Nonprofit
Organizations
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
Since November of '91 to
the end of December of '92, $35.7 million was made in profits from the VLT
revenues. Ten million dollars, as the
Leader of the NDP (Mr. Doer) pointed out, went to the Hotel Association.
The minister plus the
Premier (Mr. Filmon) talk about $500,000 being put back into rural
communities. Well, Mr. Speaker, they
talk about
I would ask the minister
to make the commitment to ensure we are not going to lose the volunteers who
are raising money to help subsidize everything from children to play hockey to
whatever else there might be. We need a
firmer commitment from this government to restore part of that $45.7 million
that has been taken out of the rural communities.
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister charged with the
administration of The
Mr. Speaker, the 300‑and‑some
facilities, hotels and facilities in rural
Mr. Speaker, there seems
to be some fallacy that Lotteries revenues that are generated by the government
of
So all Manitobans
benefit from all Lotteries dollars that are generated.
Gaming Report
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
My question to the
minister is: How can she have an
American consultant doing a study on the problems of gambling, when we know
full well that the foundation has in place, is ready for 270 different
organizations or hotels in the city of
How can she justify
implementing these VLTs when we do not even know what the results of this
particular report are?
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister charged with the
administration of The
I can justify doing a
study. We look at Liberal New
So let him not talk
about what Manitoba‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order,
please.
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I want to
know from the Premier (Mr. Filmon) how he can justify having 1,800 additional
VLTs implemented into the city of
How can his government
bring to‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order,
please. The honourable member has
already put his question. The honourable
member for
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.
Speaker, I guess I might turn the question back, and ask how the member for
Mr. Speaker, I am not so
sure if that is the Liberal Party's policy in the
Mr. Speaker, our policy
will not allow that.
Oil Spill‑Information
Release
Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, with more than 4,500 litres of
oil spilled into the
I would ask the Minister
of Environment, why was there no announcement made in February when this
accident occurred? Why has the
government tried to downplay the accident and the implications it could have?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): I am not sure if I heard the question correctly,
but it seems to me the member was asking this minister if we had made an
announcement. I hope she did not mean
prior to the spill.
Mr. Speaker, we attended
at the site and set up a monitoring program so that we were assured that there
was no risk involved. Frankly, it seems to me that while this was an
unfortunate event, it was properly put into the context of safety for the
environment and any possible impacts for downstream users.
Ms. Cerilli: Could
the minister tell the House how the downstream communities were informed, if
they were in fact informed, and what has been done to determine the possible
effects on the drinking water for those downstream communities?
Mr. Cummings: Mr.
Speaker, as I said, a monitoring process was put in place and made very sure
that if there was any potential for harm or danger, everyone would have been
kept informed.
* (1040)
RCMP Investigation
Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, there must be some concern or
the federal agencies would not be there raiding‑‑looking for
information at the Hydro plant.
Can the Minister of Environment
tell us what were the environmental concerns of the federal agencies that
forced them to go into Hydro on an emergency basis? What are their concerns?
Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I will also be quite interested to
see what their concern is.
The staff of our
department were onsite as quickly as possible after the event, implemented the
procedures I indicated, and I will be watching with some interest to see what
their interest is.
Ferry Schedule
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and
Transportation): Mr.
Speaker, the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) just moments ago asked me a
question about whether ferries were going to be closed in certain areas in the
North.
It had been the intention
of staff to close the low‑volume ferries during the summer months. That decision has been reversed and will not
happen.
Canada-America Health
Care Plan
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
According to a media
report yesterday, a spokesperson for this American company said business is
skyrocketing, and they expect to sign up more than 50,000 people to the plan.
I would like to ask the
Premier if he has investigated this matter and if he can tell us how many
Manitobans have taken out
Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer that question any
more than I can answer the question of how many Manitobans carry Blue Cross or
how many Manitobans carry any other supplementary health insurance program that
is available through Great‑West Life and any other companies that are
here.
Mr. Speaker, Manitobans
should really seriously consider whether this is worth the investment. I have said that from square one. I think what is happening is an entrepreneur,
a business individual, is harnessing the fear campaign the New Democrats in
opposition are generating, and the NDP may well be promoting sales for this
private company.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr.
Speaker, my supplementary is: Considering that it was this Premier (Mr. Filmon)
and this government who dismissed this worrisome trend by suggesting that
demand would be low, I think the onus is on this government to pick up the
phone and call the company and ask how many clients they are getting.
I would ask the Premier
if he has done any follow‑up to find out how many Manitobans are signing
up and why they are signing up and taking out expensive insurance to have
access to American hospitals.
Mr. Orchard: Well, we
are both kind of interested in answering this, Mr. Speaker.
My honourable friend is
saying we should put barriers around business activities in
Mr. Speaker, we do not
have the right and the ability to ask Manitobans if they carry life
insurance. That is the next logical step
of my honourable friend's mind‑‑you must have life insurance or
else you might have an impact on the health care system without life insurance.
Mr. Speaker, where does
this end in my honourable friend's attempt to raise the fears of
Manitobans? If Manitobans choose to buy
Blue Cross, we do not object. If
Manitobans choose to buy Great‑West Life for supplementary insurance to
cover ambulance costs or anything else they want, they can do so. Why is my honourable friend wanting to deny
business in
My message has been
consistent, Mr. Speaker. Read the fine
print before you put your money down, because you are going to find it is not
worth your while.
Canada-America Health
Care Plan
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
Mr. Speaker: Order,
please. The honourable member for
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Let me ask the Premier
what steps this government has taken to ensure that Manitobans have no reason to
turn to
Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, this province, this government,
has increased funding to health care in the previous five years by rates of
well over 5 percent annually, well above the rate of inflation. We have consistently put more money in, so we
are doing more procedures in terms of operations in all fields.
We have brought in
place, for instance, dialysis units throughout the province that were not there
under the NDP government. We have
continued to fund health care in a manner that allows for us to provide the
best level of health care available anywhere in the world.
Mr. Speaker, the member
opposite seems to have a hangup about private insurance. If that is the case, is she now going to go
on a crusade to get rid of Blue Cross?
Is she now going to go on a crusade to get rid of the health care
programs that are provided by Great‑West Life and all of those other
insurance companies? What is the
member's objective? What is her goal?
How far will she go to drive private enterprise in business out of this province
and this country?
I think the member
opposite had better rethink her position before she runs federally, because she
will be in the same rut that her Leader is nationally at 8 percent public
support. That is the kind of support she
will get for taking that kind of absolutely incredible position.
Dauphin Sign Shop
Privatization
Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, this Tory government
refused to reinstate a very important program in the
In addition to that, if
we combine the other cuts that have been put in place by this government in the
Parkland, including cuts in corrections, cuts in highways, cuts in water
resources, hydro, Manitoba Telephone System and the failure to decentralize, we
have lost over 100 jobs since this government came to office two years ago.
Mr. Speaker, in light of
the fact that the government has made a decision to cut seven more jobs at the
Dauphin Sign Shop and to eliminate that service, I want to ask the Minister of
Highways whether he now will give first opportunity to the employees to
purchase that shop and guarantee them the opportunity to the government
contracts for signs that have been there in the past.
Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and
Transportation): Mr.
Speaker, it was the decision of this government that we would allow
privatization of the sign shop in Dauphin.
Proposal calls are being developed at the present time. I have personally encouraged the employees
who have been involved with the sign shop to try and avail themselves of the
benefits under the Crocus Fund, to try and make an application and respond to
the proposal call.
I am looking forward to
the final stages of developing the proposal call, and I would hope they would
respond to that.
Mr. Plohman: Mr.
Speaker, I am asking whether he will give first opportunity so these employees
can guarantee their jobs at that sign shop in the way they were operating
previously.
Will he guarantee that
the employees have first opportunity to provide this service?
Mr. Driedger: Mr.
Speaker, I just indicated I was encouraging the employees at the Dauphin Sign
Shop to participate in a proposal call.
I do not want to talk
about rumours, necessarily, but I was also informed that five of the employees
actually were looking at taking early retirement at one stage of the game and
also that the other employees, there were places where they could go to. My
personal preference would still be that they submit a proposal call, respond to
a proposal call, and certainly consideration will be given along with the
others as to exactly what the details are.
We have had discussion
about this, Mr. Speaker, as to whether we should give some kind of a
guarantee. We got a legal opinion on
it. It is a matter that is being
developed at the present time.
Mr. Speaker: The time
for Oral Questions has expired.
Committee Changes
Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that the composition of the Standing Committee on
Economic Development be amended as follows:
Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) for Transcona (Mr. Reid); Dauphin (Mr. Plohman)
for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), for Friday, June 18 at 1 p.m.
Motion agreed to.
Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for
Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), that the composition of the Standing Committee on
Economic Development for June 17, 1993, at 7 p.m.: St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) for Osborne (Mr.
Alcock).
I move, seconded by the
member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), that the composition of the Standing
Committee on Economic Development for June 17, 1993, at 8:20 p.m.: Osborne (Mr. Alcock) for St. Boniface (Mr.
Gaudry).
Motions agreed to.
Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Portage la
Prairie (Mr. Pallister), that the composition of the Standing Committee on
Economic Development be amended as follows:
the member for Arthur‑Virden (Mr. Downey) for the member for St.
Rose du Lac (Mr. Cummings); the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) for the
member for Roblin‑Russell (Mr. Derkach); the member for Gimli (Mr.
Helwer) for the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine); the member for
Charleswood (Mr. Ernst) for the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner); the member for
Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).
Motion agreed to.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call second readings of
bills in this order, please: Bill 43, Bill 45, then followed by 44; and,
following that, adjourned debate, Bills 37, 34, 30, 38, 41, and 32.
SECOND
Bill 43‑The
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I move, seconded by the Minister of Urban
Affairs and Housing (Mr. Ernst), that The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation
Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur la
Fondation manitobaine des loteries et apportent des modifications correlatives
a une autre loi), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of
this House.
Motion presented.
* (1050)
Mrs. Mitchelson: The
proposed amendments to The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act are the final step
toward the creation of
Since the introduction
of the first provincial lottery 23 years ago, the people of our province have
benefited from the programs, services, and special initiatives that have been
funded and supported through lottery revenue.
The evolution of our lottery system in
(Mrs. Louise Dacquay,
Deputy Speaker, in the Chair)
As many of the
honourable members are aware, the management and operation of the lottery and
gaming activity in
Gaming has become a well‑accepted
form of entertainment for many. The popularity
of gaming establishments south of the border, and the drain of our own economy,
has meant that our gaming operations must remain competitive and responsive to
consumer needs.
The combination of these
factors have changed the scope and delivery of gaming activities to Manitobans
and to visitors to our province. These
changes, and Manitoba Lotteries' response to these shifts have led Manitoba
Lotteries to be recognized as a pacesetter in the industry.
Over the years, Manitoba
Lotteries has evolved from a foundation to a corporation. Changes to the manner in which Lotteries
revenues are distributed have transformed the role and mission of Manitoba
Lotteries. The corporation responsible
for the operation, management and licensing‑‑
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please.
I wonder if I might ask the honourable members carrying on personal
conversations, if they would do so either in the loge or outside the Chamber.
I am experiencing great
difficulty in listening, in hearing the honourable Minister of Culture's (Mrs.
Mitchelson) second reading on Bill 43.
Mrs. Mitchelson: On April
1, 1990, a revised funding system was implemented, which changed the
administration of lottery revenue.
Previous to that, Manitoba Lotteries, as a foundation, was responsible
for the administration and allocation of lottery revenue.
In 1990, our government
established the Lotteries distribution system.
This flexible, accountable and accessible mechanism for the co‑ordination
of funding represents a co‑operative effort on the part of government
departments, as well as funding umbrella and community‑support programs.
While the creation of
the Lotteries distribution system changed the way lottery revenue is
administered, the overall philosophy of how monies are spent remains the
same. Gaming revenue continues to be
returned to Manitobans and their communities for the benefit of all us. Nevertheless, the shift in the funding
mechanism has had a significant impact on Manitoba Lotteries, and has
dramatically changed the structure and the role and the mission of Manitoba
Lotteries from a foundation to a corporation.
The proposed amendments
are also another step being taken to implement the recommendations made from an
independent operational review undertaken in 1991. Organizational changes were made to create
more consistency in business‑unit management. The review enabled Manitoba Lotteries to
assess corporate capabilities in the context of its strategic plans and to
identify corporate requirements in terms of marketing, organization and
information systems.
It led to the
development of a responsive and effective corporate structure, and it
identified opportunities for enhanced operations. The ultimate goal was to create a more effective
and efficient Manitoba Lotteries, to achieve a corporation that is capable of
addressing the challenges of the present and the future.
The corporate structure
changes, as well as shifts in the gaming industry and consumer demand, have
resulted in the proposed legislative amendments before this House today. These amendments are necessary to ensure
Manitoba Lotteries continues to meet its goals to maximize long‑term
economic returns to the people of
The evolution from a
foundation to a Crown corporation also involves some legislative housekeeping
to amend the sections of the act which govern the employment of Manitoba
Lotteries staff. Currently, there are two categories of employees: civil service staff, and Manitoba Lotteries
staff.
As you can imagine,
Madam Deputy Speaker, the administration and management of what amounts to two
separate workforces is complex, unwieldy, inefficient, and costly. For example, there are currently two separate
payrolls and two separate classification systems. Less than 15 percent of all Manitoba
Lotteries staff come under the governance of the Civil Service Commission. The balance are covered under two other
collective agreements, and are governed by the Manitoba Lotteries policy.
The streamlining of the
organization's workforce is a positive move which will eliminate the need for
dual bureaucracy. It will reduce
overhead and will remove perceived barriers to career mobility.
I want to stress, Madam
Deputy Speaker, that the amendments governing the employment of staff will be
largely transparent to the civil service employees, and they are not intended
to denigrate or take away any status or benefits. Manitoba Lotteries will grandfather the
benefits and entitlements of the civil service staff it currently employs. Meetings have taken place between Manitoba
Lotteries and the MGEU to discuss an orderly transition to non‑civil
service status.
The new Manitoba
Lotteries corporation will continue to adhere to government‑wide policies
like our Affirmative Action Policy on the employment of women, aboriginals,
visible minorities and people will disabilities.
As I noted earlier in my
remarks, outside influences such as increased competition south of the border
and to the east and west of us has significantly changed the face of gaming
activities in our province. Manitoba
Lotteries has successfully introduced new products and new approaches to gaming
in
The establishment of the
Native Gaming Agreement process is an example of the new direction and vision
that guide Manitoba Lotteries. To date,
19 First Nations have entered into 12 Native Gaming Agreements with the
province. These agreements help to
ensure that gaming in
The rural VLT program
has been successful in achieving its goals, as is demonstrated by the
significant boost in the rural hotel industry.
I anticipate that the expansion of the VLT network to the city of
The
I would be remiss, Madam
Deputy Speaker, not to bring your attention to the significant impact that
charitable gaming, that is, gaming activities carried out by community groups
and organizations, has had on the communities of Manitoba. During the fiscal year 1991‑92,
Manitoba Lotteries is
replacing the Pot O'Gold and Bonanza bingo halls with the McPhillips Street
Station and Club Regent. Gaming competition has led Manitoba Lotteries to
develop these unique state‑of‑the‑art, customer‑service‑driven
facilities in an effort to keep gaming dollars in our province and benefit our
economy.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I
have noted past successes and Manitoba Lotteries' plans for the future to
highlight the role that this corporation plays in our province. The responsibility for these initiatives and
the operation, licensing and management of all gaming activities in
It should be noted that
the role played by Manitoba Lotteries goes far beyond the initiatives and
responsibilities I have highlighted during the course of my remarks today. Manitoba Lotteries also plays a significant
role in the economy of our province. In
fact, the scope of their operations ranks Manitoba Lotteries among the largest
private corporations in
* (1100)
Madam Deputy Speaker, I
am pleased to report that a total of 2,900 full‑time jobs are generated
by Manitoba Lotteries current operations, which include the
Additional economic
impacts are generated as Manitoba Lotteries prizewinners spend their
winnings. Expenditures by prizewinners
are conservatively estimated at $166 million per year and generate employment
of 1,800 person years along with the gross provincial product contribution of
$103 million.
Manitoba Lotteries
operations also attract visitors to our province. It is estimated that tourists visiting the
It is anticipated that
those impacts will double in 1994‑95 as McPhillips Street Station and
Club Regent draw additional visitors to
Manitoba Lotteries plays
a significant role in our province's economy and future. It is charged with operating, managing and
licensing activities in a dynamic and competitive industry, and above all it
must ensure the integrity and security of all gaming activities in
As such, legislative
amendments must be enacted to ensure that the organization's structure is in
keeping with the new demands and changing responsibilities for gaming in our
province.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I
encourage the members of the House to support this legislation and to bring
into being
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to take this
opportunity to put a number of concerns that I have on the record, and for
those who might have been in committee yesterday it might sound somewhat
repetitive, but I do believe that it is very important in the sense that the
mandate of the foundation and the growth from within the lotteries and gambling
in the province of Manitoba might, in fact, warrant a Crown corporation. We will see what happens in terms of the
public hearings or the committee stage in terms of how the bill itself will
evolve.
Quite frankly, it looks
fairly apparent that it should not have too much of a problem in terms of going
into the Crown corporation because I think it will give it that much more of an
arm's‑length distance from the government. In many cases that can be a very encouraging
sign in itself.
I wanted to comment on
some of the concerns that have been expressed that I have taken whatever
opportunity that I have had given to me to be able to talk about, whether it
was inside the Chamber, out in rural Manitoba or in fact in the city of
Winnipeg because of the number of individuals from all different sectors,
whether they were elected or nonelected or whether they are individuals who
have the VLT machines in their businesses or individuals who play, or other
individuals who are very concerned about the direction that this government is
taking with respect to gambling.
I wanted to start off by
talking a bit in terms of what this minister's intentions are, or what this
government's intentions are with respect to the VLTs and the expansion of the
VLTs because yesterday I had the opportunity to ask some questions in committee
of Mr. Funk with respect to the VLTs in the city of Winnipeg, and I was very
concerned with some of the numbers that were given from Mr. Funk when we heard
that there were going to be 1,800 to 1,900 VLT machines put into the city of Winnipeg
come September. In fact, there are 275
locations that have already been found, and these locations already have an
idea in terms of the numbers they will be receiving with respect to the number
of VLT machines, and an approximate date, if you will, in terms of when it is
that they would be coming.
Actually, after the
discussion‑‑and because the 12:30 approached so very quickly, I did
not get the opportunity to ask as many questions as I would have liked to have
asked. I hope that this committee will,
in fact, be called again very shortly for the simple reason that I think it is
an issue that does warrant and merit a full discussion of this Legislature,
Madam Deputy Speaker, or by this Legislature.
We have not had any real
debate from within this Chamber to outside, and particularly outside of this
Chamber, and I think that is somewhat sad in itself. As I said, having had the opportunity to be
able to talk to so many different individuals, in particular in rural
We have this American
consultant, Rachel Volberg, who is going to be conducting or, I take it, has
virtually finalized her study with respect to the problems of gambling, the
negative social impacts of gambling. The
minister implies that in fact we will be receiving this report sometime in the
next number of weeks. Hopefully, Madam
Deputy Speaker, we will actually receive that report while we are still in
session. I can remember when the minister
actually made the announcement, and I believe it was back in November, somewhere
in November, I believe it was, where the minister said that we have hired this
American consultant who is going to be doing a study. At the time I felt that it was a bit too
late, but it was encouraging to see that the minister in fact took the initiative
and hired someone to look at the social problems that are being created as a
direct result of the VLTs in rural
Madam Deputy Speaker, I
had believed at the time that she had made reference to the fact that the
report would be done in the month of May.
Now it could have been possibly the month of June that she had her
intentions, and I hope that she lives up to the intention of tabling or
reporting on the consultant's report sometime this month; and, from her seat
she says, you bet. I look forward to in
fact reading that report.
What concerns me, Madam
Deputy Speaker, is, as I say, 275 locations in the city of
Madam Deputy Speaker, I
believe that is wrong, that at the very least what should be happening is that
there should be a moratorium on the VLTs coming into the city of
* (1110)
Yesterday, again in a
committee, I had asked the foundation staff, particularly Mr. Funk, to give
some sort of indication on tracking or what it is that they do, and came out of
that committee meeting with the opinion that the foundation has been doing
virtually nothing, if anything, on the tracking on the negative social
implications of gambling. In fact, Madam
Deputy Speaker, in leaving, one was of the opinion, or at least I was of the
opinion, that as far as the foundation is concerned it has nothing more than a
mandate of expansion, of bringing things into being, of coming up with the
ideas to ensure that they can raise more revenue.
I think that is
consistent with the government's policy of wanting to have more revenue,
because if you take a look at it, the only real line that this government has
had an increase in revenue has been with gambling. I think that is sad in itself, that
government has to rely on revenues of gambling in order to be able to justify
what it is doing.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I
believe it is so shortsighted in the sense that they are not, because I do not
believe they are, recognizing the problems of gambling and the negative impact
of gambling. The minister today in
Question Period stands up and the government says, you know, well, the member
for
Madam Deputy Speaker, I
appreciate the comments from the dean in terms of sprinkling sand on a slippery
slope. But, unfortunately, whenever you
want to try to create or provide to Manitobans an alternative, that means, in
my opinion, that you have to take some stands on different issues.
I believe it was
responsible. We were not in terms of the
VLTs, the only thing I said there is you should not‑‑5 cent and 25
cent machines is something that I would look at in terms of rural
Manitoba. The minister responded by
saying, well, you put in the looney and it is like putting in four quarters,
but it is, in fact, different. It is
very different. It is a different
clientele.
The number of VLTs in
rural
This government has not
approached the issue of gambling in a straightforward fashion. If it was wanting to be responsible, one
would think that it should have had this study done prior. It should have known
what the impacts were going to be on everything from the legions to what the
Leader of the New Democratic Party referred to earlier in Question Period,
child care centres that could end up having to close down as a direct result.
Madam Deputy Speaker,
these are the impacts that the Minister responsible for Lotteries should be
able to answer. She should have been
able to tell us which groups and organizations are going to be impacted, but
was unable to. The government only talks‑‑like
when she stood up in Question Period, she said, well, the bingo sales actually
have increased in rural
There are many other
forms of fundraising that occur throughout the province, and in particular in
rural Manitoba, that have nothing to do with break‑open tickets that are
having a significant impact on those fundraising, whether it is the selling of
Grey Cup pool tickets or whether it is the children that want to sell chocolate
bars to help subsidize a sporting event that they are in. All of these have had a severe impact as a
direct result of the VLT machines being put into rural
Madam Deputy Speaker, if
you buy the argument that I am proposing, I would then suggest to you, where or
how are these individuals or organizations going to find the money to replace
what it is that they are fundraising?
The Minister of Natural
Resources (Mr. Enns), our dean, says, it is the tree. They are going to have to, quite possibly, in
all likelihood, have to come to government.
Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): They are going to.
Mr. Lamoureux: He says,
they are going to. You are right. They are going to come to government as a
direct result of these VLTs going into rural
So we are taking away
from some volunteers. Individuals that
took the initiative to raise money themselves now are going to have to come to government
at least in part. As a direct result, I
do not believe that we are doing a service to Manitobans, and if in fact the
minister was aware of some of those problems and was prepared to be able to
answer them, I do not believe we would have‑‑what is it?‑‑I
believe it is 2,100 VLT machines scattered throughout rural Manitoba at 290
different locations.
Madam Deputy Speaker, if
the minister was better aware of the negative impacts, I do not believe for a
moment that we would have those 2,100 VLTs.
You might, yes, be able to raise some money today, but you are losing
some money tomorrow, and that is just talking in terms of real dollars. If we talk in terms of the social problems
that are being caused as a direct result, you know‑‑let us talk
about some of the individuals. I would
argue, every individual, every MLA inside this Chamber, will have some
constituents who are being dramatically affected. There are individuals who are selling
property in order to sustain a habit.
I have talked to our local
RCMP, one officer in particular, who had indicated to me where he has seen one
individual who actually went to the bank every second day in order to sustain a
habit of putting in the looneys into the VLT machines‑‑every other
day. Every day, he was inside the hotel
plugging in the looneys.
If you take a look at
the actual dollars, Madam Deputy Speaker, look at the dollars themselves, you
have in rural Manitoba, since its inception which I believe was in November of
'91 to December of '92, something in the neighbourhood of $35.7 million that
the government has made, and you have had $10 million in which the hotels‑‑and
the minister is right, it was not the Hotel Association. It was in fact hotels that actually received
it‑‑but you have had approximately $45.7 million that has been
taken out of the rural economy up to December of '92.
* (1120)
Madam Deputy Speaker, we
are probably talking, if you were to bring it up to today, in and around $60
million. Out of that $60 million, how
much has actually been returned and at what cost? I said the individual who went to the VLT
machines every day; there are many people who are doing that throughout the
province who are going on virtually a daily basis.
This $60 million has not
come from 450,000 people living in
Now, no doubt in rural
Manitoba‑‑because as everything, when you get something new, there
are a lot of people who play it for the novelty of playing it and so forth‑‑I
am anticipating or our caucus is anticipating that the revenues in rural
Manitoba on the VLTs will in fact go down somewhat, but it will be sustained
primarily because of individuals who fall addicted to it. Those are the individuals, at least, in part,
some of those individuals, whom I am very concerned about. This government has not provided money for
self‑help groups that could be out there dealing with some of the
problems of VLTs, the social problems that are out there, the marriages that
are breaking up as a result, and some of the other family problems that are being
created. We have heard of two suicides,
not necessarily as direct, like one cannot blame VLTs directly for the suicide,
but both of them did make reference to the VLTs or electronic gaming‑‑serious
problems, Madam Deputy Speaker.
There is no money that
this government is putting forward to deal with those negative social problems
other than the fact that they say, we are going to put 65 deficit, 10 percent
for the rural municipalities, and we are going to have $500,000 going back to
subsidize those organizations that had the break‑open tickets. But what about the establishment of support
groups so that those individuals that do fall victim to the VLTs, and there is
going to be a number of them, what about those?
What about those support groups?
As I say, you are
talking about millions and millions of dollars that are coming from a
relatively few number of rural Manitobans.
What is being done for that particular problem? Madam Deputy Speaker, I
could go on in terms of rural
But let us go back into
the city of
The minister talked
about tourism, that a significant number of those dollars are tourism
dollars. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am
encouraged to hear that there is some of the money that is coming from tourist
dollars. I believe that is a positive
thing. I have been unable to actually
get the concrete numbers in terms of what percentage is, in fact, tourist
dollars. I hope that we will get this
committee so that we will be to find out and answer some of those questions.
But I am concerned
about, we now have the big bingo, and for lack, I am going to continue to use
the word "palace." I know Mr.
Funk does not like the word "palace" being used, but this is what has
been coined, I believe, from one of the Free Press reporters. We, at least a number of people, have adopted
it because I think it is somewhat of an appropriate terminology.
We have two huge bingo
palaces that are being opened very shortly in the city of
The member for Transcona
(Mr. Reid) says there are less. This is a valid point. The member for Transcona says there are in
fact less. These are the actual numbers‑‑(interjection)
This is what he was told.
These are the types of
questions that we would like to be able to ask of the foundation itself. Again, it stresses the importance of the
foundation and us having the committee meeting, so that we can get on the
record the types of questions and answers so that we are better able to debate
it. I think it is important to know, for
example, have the number of seats increased in the palaces. What is the government's intention in dealing
with bingo and the impact these palaces are going to have on the bingos in the
city of
The minister had
indicated in her remarks, in particular during Question Period and yesterday,
that bingo has actually increased in rural
But what is it that you
are doing? It is, of course, that you
are taking away from, whether it is a church bingo, community bingo, whatever
it might be, and these are bingos that are run again by volunteers. If you take away from those bingos, in all
likelihood, government, not only at this level but also at the civic level, are
going to be approached for monies that have been lost.
I was listening to one
of the radio stations, '
* (1130)
Madam Deputy Speaker,
these are the types of things which I believe the minister should be aware of
prior to expansion or venturing into it or giving the green light for the
foundation to go into. These are the
types of things that the minister needs to know. This is the reason why today‑‑I
have stood up in the past and will continue to, to argue that the government
should not be going ahead with expansion of gambling until it knows at what
cost, at what the economic and social costs are going to be. (interjection)
To the Deputy Premier
(Mr. Downey), you know the ideas that we have put forward or that I had put
forward to our membership were much more responsible than what this government
has taken. Had the Deputy Premier fact read through the whole booklet of ideas
that our membership was supposed to talk about, I am sure that he would concede
that, in fact, it was not a commitment of a governmental statement of sorts,
that it is very different what I was suggesting to our members than what this
government is actually doing. I do not
want to get off topic there, Madam Deputy Speaker, but to continue to go back
in terms of the costs and this government not having the background information
to be able to justify its expansion.
The government minister
yesterday said that, I believe the figure was, nine out of every 10 Manitobans
gamble and all we are doing is providing a form of entertainment. The Minister of Highways (Mr. Driedger) said
from his seat that he wants to keep Manitobans here as opposed to letting them
go abroad to gamble. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have always argued that we have to
be responsible in dealing with the gambling issue, and there is no debate on
that aspect of it. What we want debate
on is how we do that. How do we ensure
that it is a proper form in terms of access, in terms of the entertainment
value, and so forth? This is where I
personally, and as a caucus, completely disagree with what the minister and
this government are actually doing.
As I say, we do want to
see this bill go into committee, but I guess that I would want to conclude my
remarks by just talking about the dollars and the expansion that is being
proposed. To conclude, again, I remind
everyone in this Chamber that $35.7 million was taken out through the VLTs out
of rural Manitobans from the government alone in terms of profit‑‑$35.7
million, and that is up to '92. Madam
Deputy Speaker, $10 million went to the hotels; $500,000 went back into the
communities for those organizations that lost out of the break‑open
tickets, nothing more than that. Nothing
in terms of the other individual fundraising events that occur. Absolutely nothing has been done in terms of
support groups for the negative social costs of the VLTs going into rural
Madam Deputy Speaker,
the city of
How much of the money
that is going to be generated from those VLT machines is going to go towards
support groups, is going to be going towards the communities or the
organizations that are going to be losing money? How long will this government continue in
these public relation scams dealing with gambling in the
Madam Deputy Speaker,
the government can try to say whatever it wants in terms of what I said during
the leadership debate, but I can assure the government that the Liberal Party
will approach gambling very seriously.
We will ensure that there is going to be full public discussion. If the government is unwilling to take that
responsibility, I, on behalf of the Liberal caucus as the critic for Lotteries,
will ensure that this government will in fact be held accountable and
individuals in the next provincial election will be well aware throughout the
province of Manitoba, well aware of what this government has done in terms of
gambling in the province of Manitoba.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the
member for
Motion agreed to.
Bill 45‑The Coat
of Arms, Emblems and the
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and
Citizenship): Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the
Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey), that Bill 45, The Coat of Arms,
Emblems and the Manitoba Tartan Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur les
armoiries, les emblemes et le tartan du Manitoba) be now read a second time and
referred to a committee of this House.
Motion presented.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam
Deputy Speaker, on October 23, 1992, many of us were privileged to witness here
in this Chamber a historic occasion for our province and for
* (1140)
The Governor‑General
is also, by virtue of his office, the head of the Canadian Heraldic
Authority. When he approved the changes
to our coat of arms that were requested by our province, it was the first time
that a new coat of arms had been created in this fashion in Canada.
The ceremony in this
Chamber marked the first time that a Canadian Governor‑General had
created an augmented provincial coat of arms.
The bill that I am introducing today gives provincial legislative
authority to the augmented coat of arms that the Governor‑General was
pleased to approve last year.
Madam Deputy Speaker,
The Coat of Arms, Emblems and the Manitoba Tartan Amendment Act accomplishes
three things. First, in legal
terminology, it incorporates the changes to our coat of arms into the governing
legislation.
Second, in heraldic
language, it describes the augmented coat of arms; and third, it contains
reproductions of the two coats of arms, the former version dating to 1905 and
the new augmented coat of arms that has been in use since last October 23.
The bill is retroactive
to October 23, 1992.
I would just like to
read into the record the story of the coat of arms of
Unfortunately, no evidence
has yet surfaced to indicate who was the author of this striking design. The inspiration for it is quite clear. As Dr. Conrad Swan, Garter King of Arms has
noted in his excellent study,
The principal charge for
the company's arms is the red cross of St. George, and so it was appropriate
that this should form part of the arms of the province.
The buffalo, which is
the major charge of the provincial arms, was the most singular of the several
fauna of the area. More than 30 years passed before the provincial authorities
sought to have lawful arms granted to
In response to an Order‑in‑Council
of December 10, 1903, King Edward VII signed a Royal Warrant on May 10, 1905
assigning arms to the province. These
consisted of a heraldicly correct version of the major elements found on the
Great Seal of 1870.
In the arms the buffalo
stands on a rock and the royal crown does not appear at the centre of the
cross. This symbol, familiar to
generations of Manitobans and other Canadians has served the province as its
principal mark of identity and authority until today.
In May this year, our
Premier (Mr. Filmon), on behalf of the government and people of
His Honour transmitted
this request to His Excellency the Right Honourable Ramon John Hnatyshyn,
Governor‑General of Canada, who is head of the Canadian Heraldic
Authority. The authority was created on
June 4, 1988, pursuant to a royal warrant which vested the prerogative power
possessed by Her Majesty as Queen of Canada to create heraldic honours with the
Governor‑General.
The augmentation
involves adding to the shield all the other elements which for centuries have
comprised a full coat of arms, the crest above the shield, the supporters at
either side, the compartment on which the supporters and the shield rest and
the motto.
The historic and current
view of augmentation, especially for provinces, is that they are a visual
expression of the importance these entities have in the life and character of
the nation. Augmentations are undertaken for the greater honour of the
province. From an aesthetic and
historical perspective, augmentations offer a unique opportunity to enrich and
extend the visual impact and symbolic meaning of the original arms. As I indicated, on the 23rd of October, 1992,
we officially brought the augmented coat of arms into place.
(Mr.
Speaker in the Chair)
These new arms, the
first ever to be created in this fashion in
At the centre of the new
arms is the familiar shield of 1905.
Above the shield, the gold helmet signals
On the beaver's back is
the Royal Crown granted as a special mark of honour by Her Majesty the Queen on
the recommendation of His Excellency the Governor‑General. Occupying the senior position in the arms, it
symbolizes
Turning to the
supporters, on the viewer's left is the unicorn. This complex, fascinating and graceful
mythical creature is one of two supporters in the Royal Arms of Canada, in
turn, inherited from the arms of Great Britain and ultimately from Scotland,
homeland of so many of the first Europeans who came to Manitoba.
At its neck is a collar
of green stones with silver masonry bearing a decorative frieze of silver maple
leafs. This collar represents Manitoba's
position as Canada's keystone province, an adjective long used to describe its
geographical and economic importance in the centre of the country, and, as
well, the stones of Fort Garry and some of the other historic buildings in the
Red River Valley. Hanging from this
collar is a wheel of a Red River cart, symbolic of the most distinctive form of
transport developed in
Mr. Speaker, on the
viewer's right is a white horse, an animal vital to the culture of several of
the first peoples, the Metis and the European settlers. The collar of bead and bone honours all of
the first peoples, and hanging from it is their symbol for the nature and
meaning of our existence‑‑the sacred circle or cycle of life.
The supporters and the
shield rest on a compartment which is a visual metaphor for
* (1150)
The best symbols are a
dramatic distillation of the communities they represent and serve. The Governor‑General's gift to
Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased and proud to introduce this legislation today, retroactive to October
23, 1992. I know the citizens of
Thank you.
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I move, seconded by the member for
Motion agreed to.
Bill 44‑The
Alcoholism Foundation Amendment
and Consequential
Amendments Act
Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Monsieur le president, I move, seconded by the
Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 44,
The Alcoholism Foundation Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi
modifiant la Loi sur la Fondation manitobaine de lutte contre l'alcoolisme et
apportant des modifications correlatives a une autre loi, be now read a second
time and be referred to a committee of this House.
Motion presented.
Mr. Orchard: Monsieur
le president‑‑(interjection) En francais? Je parle un peu mais je
ne parle pas bien le francais.
(Translation)
Mr. Speaker‑‑(interjection) In French? I speak a little French but I do not speak it
well.
(English)
Mr. Speaker, the
amendments to The Alcoholism Foundation Act before the House are a reflection
of the changing times and their impact on the role of the foundation in serving
our community. The proposal to change the name of the Alcoholism Foundation to
the Addictions Foundation is part of this legislation, Sir.
When the foundation was
first established, the treatment of Manitobans suffering from alcohol abuse and
addiction was the primary focus. Today,
this is no longer the reality. More
clients, Sir, have multiple addictions.
The statistics show us that of the people relying on the foundation's
assistance, nearly 100 percent of female clients abuse or are addicted to
alcohol plus another drug. Approximately
80 percent of male clients are addicted to other drugs in addition to alcohol,
and 4.3 percent of the foundation's clients are seeking treatment solely for
drug addictions.
As these trends have
emerged within our community, the foundation has altered its service delivery
to meet the changing needs of their chemically dependent clients. For example, their preventative and
educational programs deal with increasing public awareness on a wide range of
problems related to an addiction, i.e., Sir, most recently, participation in a
conference on fetal alcohol syndrome, and efforts around the sniffing problem
that has been in the news lately.
The foundation continues
to offer support services to affected persons‑‑the spouses, friends
and families of addicts. Affected persons are 10 percent of the current
foundation's clientele. These
individuals require professional direction on how to cope with the impact of
addictions and chemical dependencies on their relationships.
It is to reflect the
fact that alcoholism is, in itself, no longer the major focus of the
foundation's efforts that we ask this House to approve the substitution of
"Addictions" for "Alcoholism" in this act. Change will provide a clearer identification
to the foundation in the services it provides to individuals with chemical
dependencies and, Sir, will allow the AFM head logo, corporate logo to remain
intact. That is, I think, a pretty
significant advantage.
Mr. Speaker, also part
of this legislation is a clause outlining confidentiality provisions in keeping
with the foundation's current policies.
It has been demonstrated to us that from time to time, situations may
arise which require the foundation to notify other authorities concerning
individuals in their care. For example,
if the addicted individual is assessed as a danger to themselves or others,
then the foundation must be in a legal position to notify the appropriate
agencies or authorities to ensure the safety of all concerned. I think my honourable friends will agree that
is an appropriate provision to include in these amendments.
Additionally, there is a
clause added which outlines the exemption from liability requirements of
servicing the needs of addicts. This
change is in keeping with other legislation which exempts individuals from
liability resulting from the execution of their duties under specific
conditions, and the most recent being The Mental Health Act. Our proposed addition of the exemption from
liability, Clause 15, will give foundation directors, officers or employees an
exemption from liability if they carry out their duties under the act with
reasonable care and skill.
We believe these changes
are necessary and will be beneficial to the foundation, the people it serves in
the community as a whole, and I would ask my honourable friends in the House if
they could assure expedient passage of these amendments.
Thank you.
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for
Motion agreed to.
House Business
Hon. Darren Praznik (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on House Business, I would like
to make some changes on the order of bills to be called that was previously
announced by the House leader. I believe
that he had asked for Bills 37, 34, 30, 38, 41 and 32 to be called. I would like that to be changed, to be
replaced, Sir, by the calling of Bills 18, 32, 34 and 38 in that order.
DEBATE ON SECOND
Bill 18‑The
Corporations Amendment Act
Mr. Speaker: On the
proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs
(Mrs. McIntosh), Bill 18, The Corporations Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi
sur les corporations, standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows
(Mr. Martindale).
Some Honourable Members: Pass.
Mr. Speaker:
Pass? Okay, the honourable member
has spoken. Is the House ready for the
question?
The question before the
House is second reading of Bill 18, The Corporations Amendment Act; Loi
modifiant la Loi sur les corporations.
Is it the pleasure of
the House to adopt the motion?
Some Honourable Members: Agreed.
Mr. Speaker: That is
agreed and so ordered.
Bill 32‑The Social
Allowances Amendment Act
Mr. Speaker: On the
proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mr.
Gilleshammer), Bill 32, The Social Allowances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la
Loi sur l'aide sociale, standing in the name of the honourable member for
Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) who has 19 minutes remaining.
An Honourable Member: Stand.
* (1200)
Mr. Speaker:
Stand? Is there leave that this
matter remain standing? Leave. (agreed)
Bill 34‑The Public
Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools
Governance) Act
Mr. Speaker: On the
proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), Bill 34,
The Public Schools Amendment (Francophone Schools Governance) Act; Loi
modifiant la Loi sur les ecoles publiques (gestion des ecoles francaises),
standing in the name of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen).
An Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr. Speaker:
Stand. Is there leave that this
matter remain standing? Leave. (agreed)
Planning Amendment and
Summary Convictions Amendment Act
Mr. Speaker: On the
proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), Bill
38, The City of Winnipeg Amendment, Municipal Amendment, Planning Amendment and
Summary Convictions Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur la Ville de
Winnipeg, la Loi sur les municipalites, la Loi sur l'amenagement du territoire
et la Loi sur les poursuites sommaires, standing in the name of the honourable
member for Transcona (Mr. Reid).
An Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr. Speaker:
Stand. Is there leave that this
matter remain standing? Leave. (agreed)
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (
I want to begin by
saying, Mr. Speaker, that one has to question the priorities of this government
when they take the time, energy and resources to change our coat of arms from
something that is recognizable and esthetic and symbolic to one that is obtuse
and confusing and certainly not all that pleasing.
(Mr. Ben Sveinson,
Acting Speaker, in the Chair)
Yet at the same time,
while they spend that kind of resource and time and energy playing around with
our great emblem and coat of arms for the
Mr. Acting Speaker,
today in my comments on Bill 38 I will focus specifically on a section of the
bill before us which marks a fundamental public policy change with respect to
public libraries and indeed other important facilities and public services in
the city of
Mr. Acting Speaker, I
refer specifically to the words: "establish and regulate public facilities
and services, including, without limiting the generality of the foregoing,
swimming pools, arenas, leisure centres, gymnasiums and libraries, and may
prescribe the fee or charge for the use of any public facility or the provision
of any service to the public and may authorize the use of any facility or
provision of any service on any day of the week."
Mr. Acting Speaker, the
members of the Conservative Party may have thought they could slip through such
a major change in a well‑established, accessible institution in our
society, but they are wrong. This is a fundamental
shift in policy. It is a repugnant
change in policy. It is a change in the
tradition and history of this province, and we will not sit idly by and allow
this government to act in complicity with the City of
Indeed, this move on the
part of this Minister responsible for Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), in conjunction
with and collaboration with his other colleagues, including the minister who
has responsibility for our public library system, is reprehensible. It is the beginning, as we have seen in so
many other areas under this government, of a two‑tiered system, the
beginning of a reversal, the reverting back to a system that existed in this
province and in this country 100 years ago.
Mr. Acting Speaker, we
have in this province and in this country almost a hundred‑year tradition
of free public library service. We have
a long‑standing tradition of open, accessible libraries, so that everyone
in our society is able to benefit, to improve themselves, from the ability to
access books, information and other materials from our public libraries. When this matter was raised in this Chamber
not too long ago by myself, the minister responsible for public libraries
suggested that this was the responsibility of the City of
Mr. Acting Speaker, this
minister and this government had a choice, and I would have expected that while
the Minister of Urban Affairs may feel somewhat obliged by his attachment to
the gang at City Hall to listen and jump to it when the City of Winnipeg wants
a change in public policy, I would have expected that we would have had at
least one voice of common sense and common decency from the members of the
Conservative cabinet, that being the minister responsible for public libraries.
Instead of speaking up
in support of public libraries, she has acted as a puppet in complicity with
the agenda of that group over there in conjunction with the City of
Mr. Acting Speaker, this
Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson) who has
responsibility to public libraries had some choices. This government had some choices.
No. 1, this minister and
this government did not have to bow to the wishes of the City of
The second option this minister
had and this government had and still have is to show their commitment to
public libraries, make it impossible for the City of
We have surveyed
provincial legislation pertaining to public libraries and informed the minister
responsible for libraries that such provisions prohibiting the collection of fees
for the borrowing of books is clearly stated in legislation of British
Columbia, of Saskatchewan and Ontario.
Mr. Acting Speaker, this government often likes to throw the actions of
the governments of those three provinces in our face. Well, I would like now in this debate to turn
the tables and to suggest to the minister that, if they are so intent on using
those provinces as examples in this House, perhaps they do so today on this
occasion and refuse to break a hundred‑year tradition and allow for the
collection of fees in our public libraries.
The third option this
minister and this government have in response to the request from the City of
Winnipeg is to say to the City of Winnipeg, we as a province support the City
of Winnipeg library system; we provide major funds to ensure the operation of
our public library system; and to tie conditions to that grant, Mr. Acting
Speaker. Not unheard of, certainly done
in other circumstances for other reasons in other situations.
Why, in this case, when
we are seeing such a major shift and a denial of accessibility to our public
library system, are this minister and this government not prepared to stand up
to the City of Winnipeg and say we will not tolerate this change in policy and
the provision for collection of fees and we will take back every dollar of our
provincial grant for every dollar you raise in fees as a result of borrowing
books? Three reasonable options, and it
is not too late.
I would urge the
minister responsible for public libraries, for open accessible public libraries
in this province, to stand up to her colleagues and insist that at least one of
those options be considered, and that we use every tool at our fingertips to
stop this disastrous course of action and the beginning of this two‑tiered
system of public libraries in the city of Winnipeg, something which will spill
over and have dramatic effects in terms of the rural public library system.
(interjection)
Mr. Acting Speaker, I
expect this kind of reaction from members across the way and the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard). They have demonstrated clearly in this House they have no
appreciation for the need for our society to ensure an education system that is
open and accessible to everyone. So why
would they begin to appreciate the importance of our public libraries and the
role they play in the education and learning of our young people and our
citizens everywhere?
I think the Minister of
Health has put out of his mind or forgotten or is not aware of the provincial
responsibility and mandate for preserving our public library system. The area of public libraries is first and
foremost a provincial responsibility.
The province sets the standards, sets the policy and ensures a certain
direction is followed.
(Mr.
Speaker in the Chair)
* (1210)
Mr. Speaker, let me just
refresh members across the way a little bit about the history of
libraries. Let me quote for just a
moment from a recent issue of Quill & Quire in an article by Jane Aspinall
from an article entitled Roots: The history
of early library development in Canada is tied inextricably to early
developments in the book trade, in education, in newspaper and in book
publishing, to religious and political issues, in short, to the elements that
help determine the character of the emerging nation.
Up to the mid‑18th
Century there was little call for libraries, public or otherwise. Although a few private libraries were brought
over from
The article goes
on: By the time the first association
and subscription libraries were being founded late in the 18th Century, the
prevailing sense was still that only the principal classes had any need of
books and libraries. Even if this had
not been the case, the net effect of requiring patrons to pay an entrance fee
of five pounds plus an annual two‑pound subscription fee, as the public
Furthermore, Mr.
Speaker, this article states: Once it
was generally agreed that libraries and education were good things, there was
further dissent among different denominational groups about just who deserved
such privileges, the upper classes alone or everyone. Resistance to the idea of public support of
libraries meant free public libraries were not established until 1882 when
So just a little short of
a hundred years later, this government wants to take us back to a system that
was of benefit to the elite, open to the privileged, but a denial of service to
the poor and low‑income members in our society today. They want to turn back the clock. They want to take away something that has
been good, makes sense and has been of enormous benefit to the economy and to
the social fabric of this province.
Mr. Speaker, let me
remind the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), who has been huffing and puffing,
and other members across the way just what libraries mean to many of us in our
society today.
Libraries are the
neighbourhood cornerstones of cultural endeavour in this country. They represent a fundamental cultural right
in our society. The belief in their
value to society is so fundamental that their doors are open to all or had been
open to all, free of charge, with no requirement for admission, other than
residency. They are, or had been,
available to all members of our communities regardless of physical abilities,
age, ethnocultural or linguistic background.
We have seen, over the
years, libraries serving populations which are economically, politically and
socially disadvantaged. We have also seen threats to that universal access for
everyone regardless of their income or geography.
Our challenge today is
not to turn back the clock a hundred years and make these libraries
inaccessible to everyone, but to make our libraries more relevant to all
members of our society. If we were doing our jobs, that is where we would be
focusing our attention, not going for the quick‑fix solution and response
to budgetary problems, breaking a hundred‑year tradition and beginning
the imposition of fees for the borrowing of books.
Mr. Speaker, this
government has talked a lot about literacy, talked a lot and boasted a lot
about creating opportunities for literacy.
In fact, if we refer to the annual report for the Manitoba Literacy
Office, it states that the office's role is to implement a province‑wide
literacy policy and provide leadership in the development and delivery of
community‑based, learner‑centered adult literacy programming.
The Minister of
Education (Mrs. Vodrey) in this House has boasted and talked a lot about
developments in this regard. In fact,
the Premier (Mr. Filmon), also, and all members of the government have done so
in the recent report on economic recovery in this province by suggesting that,
and I quote: Since the release of the
Literacy Task Force Report in 1989, provincial funding of literacy programming
has tripled.
It claims that there are
now 33 provincially funded adult literacy programs operating across
That is one important
development to keep in mind, but just as important, perhaps even more
important, the centre of such a program, the centre of literacy training and
education in this province are our public libraries, obvious places to be able
to overcome the fact that so many in our society are illiterate today.
It is unbelievable that
on the one hand this government can claim to be so concerned about literacy and
use so much rhetorical flourish to talk about what it is doing, then turn
around and destroy a system of universal access to our public library system
that will do more to overcome illiteracy than anything this government or any
other government can do to overcome that problem.
I want to say a little
bit more about that, on the importance of libraries, particularly as it
pertains to learning, literacy and education generally.
Public libraries sustain
us throughout our lives. For the
preschooler, the shelves of picture books excite curiosity and wonder. They also offer experiences and access to
learning. But a library is more than
just a storehouse of books. Its
availability makes a difference to the quality of a child's life, and
regardless of what a child reads, it has been established that the number of
books read, not the methods of reading instruction, not I.Q., not socioeconomic
background, but the sheer quantity of books read is the decisive factor in
reading achievement.
You know, Mr. Speaker,
every summer in Manitoba, hundreds of children are encouraged to read public
library books through programs such as the Summer Reading Program, where they
earn a certificate or receive some other award for reading a certain number of
books, and it has been proven that children who participate in the program
improve their reading levels. Surely, in
the new information age, it is incontestable that reading is the single most
important skill a child can learn.
For students, the public
library supplements the libraries of their own schools and other academic
institutions. Most school libraries are
primarily curriculum‑oriented and lack sufficient breadth to fulfill all
of a student's requirements.
* (1220)
The public library is the
place that is usually open after the school library closes. It is the place that provides resources to
support research projects. It is the
place to do homework, especially if conditions are crowded at home. For the part‑time student or the adult
learner, the public library is often the only library facility available and
the student's primary help comes from public librarians.
Even more, Mr. Speaker,
let me expound upon the virtues of libraries for other individuals in our
society. For the hobbyist, the gardener,
the traveller, the writer, the artist, the musician, the local historian, the
job seeker, public libraries are essential.
For the elderly and
people with disabilities,
In an age where
information overload is more than just a sociological term, the library is and
will be, at least until July 1, when the City of
These are challenging
times. We do not dismiss that. We know that the city, the province and this
country have difficult economic challenges to come to grips with. We know that we have to exercise great
resourcefulness to find the means to enrich the quality of life for all
Manitobans. But do not do that, though,
by changing a hundred‑year tradition and bringing in fees.
We have to recognize the
importance of open, free, accessible public libraries in terms of our need to
renew the economy, to help people find work, to get them participating fully in
all facets of our life. We have to
recognize the shortsightedness of denying accessibility to libraries now and
pay the price later.
Mr. Speaker, the policy
that comes into effect July 1 in the city of
Oh, yes, there are
exemptions. There are exemptions if you
are on social assistance. There are
exemptions if you feel you are of such low income that you cannot afford to pay
for a library card.
Is that the kind of
system we want here in
Is that not the opposite
of everything we hold near and dear to us in the
Mr. Speaker, I hope that
they can stop for a minute and realize how this kind of two‑tiered
system, of what kinds of barriers it puts in place for new Canadians and for
low income members in our society, people whom we are trying to encourage into
our libraries, who have enormous barriers to overcome, and you tell me that
they are going to go into a library now when they are hard pressed to do so to
begin with and find that they have to prove that they are on social assistance
or in dire straits before they can access the library.
There is no way in
heaven people in those circumstances are going to access our public libraries
if they are facing that kind of a barrier.
You are defeating your own purpose by allowing this amendment to go
through in The City of Winnipeg Act.
The ministers opposite
the way keep suggesting, go talk to the City of
Mr. Speaker it is not
too late for this government to reconsider and to realize the damaging effects
this policy will have on education and learning and literacy in the
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: As
previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the
honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid).
It appears there is a
willingness on the part of all honourable members to revert to Bill 32. Is there unanimous consent to revert to Bill
32?
Some Honourable Members: No.
Mr. Speaker: No? Okay.
Is it the will of the House to call it 12:30 then? (agreed)
The hour being 12:30
p.m., this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. Monday.