LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Monday,
June 14, 1993
The House met at 8 p.m.
ORDERS OF
THE DAY (continued)
COMMITTEE
OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent
Sections)
EDUCATION
AND TRAINING
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order. The committee will be resuming
consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat, it had been
considering item 4.(c)(1) on page 39.
When the committee last sat, it had been
also considering the following motion:
It was moved by the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) that
the committee condemn the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) for her failure
to plan adequately for students in need before cutting the
Question?
All those in favour of the motion, please say yea.
Some Honourable Members: Yea.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: All those opposed to the motion, please say
nay.
Some Honourable Members: Nay.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The Nays have it. I need a seconder for that.
It is seconded by
the member for
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Okay.
A formal vote has been requested.
I will report the matter to the House.
The
committee recessed at 8:03 p.m.
After
Recess
The
committee resumed at 8:34 p.m.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are dealing with item 4.(c)(1) Salaries
$1,549,700‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $577,300‑‑pass;
(3) Assistance $10,000,000‑‑pass.
4.(d)(1) Salaries $136,600.
Ms. Jean Friesen
(Wolseley): Mr. Deputy Chair, I wanted to ask how many
appeals there were this year and what the rate of success was. I should say, what the rate of acceptance of
the appeals was. Success is a bit too
open to interpretation.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): In 1993,
being the school year that we are still in so the numbers are estimated: appeals received, 1,000; appeals approved,
300.
Ms. Friesen: Could the minister compare that to the previous
year?
Mrs. Vodrey: In 1991‑92 there were 1,055 appeals
received, 370 appeals approved.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 4.(d)(1) Salaries $136,600‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $24,300‑‑pass.
4.(e)(1) Salaries $503,300.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wanted to begin by
looking at the Canada‑Manitoba Labour Force Development Agreement. As the minister knows, we have asked a number
of questions about this over the last two years. Our understanding was that in 1991 we began
to see reports from this department that we were close to signing an agreement,
that an agreement was imminent, that negotiations were continuing and were
showing headway. Yet it has been two
more years before any agreement has been signed and I am concerned about the
delay, as the minister knows. I think it
has put us at a disadvantage vis‑a‑vis other provinces.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not know if
this Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) went to the Tory convention or not,
but I think the schmoozing has got to him.
Were you there?
Yes.
Ms. Friesen: That was it.
Well, I am glad there is a rational cause for it. I am glad to hear there is no other reason.
Mrs. Vodrey:
The fact that
With respect to the direct government‑to‑government
purchase of training,
Ms. Friesen: The minister has frequently said this is a
made‑in‑Manitoba solution and we do not have a boilerplate plan. I
wonder if she could indicate to us what the differences are between this
particular plan and those of other provinces.
* (2040)
Mrs. Vodrey: This agreement, we believe, marks a
significant departure from the previous agreements. The previous agreements focused on a buyer‑seller
relationship between the two levels of government in the area of training. This new agreement is a much broader agreement. It encompasses a greater array of labour
force development activities.
First of all, it stresses the joint
planning or the collaboration. It also
stresses co‑operation, and it emphasizes the need to reduce overlaps and
duplication, a complementarity in programming in services offered by
government.
Furthermore, the agreement stresses the
need to focus training activities more strategically towards economic
development rather than being reactive in its approach to labour force
development. The federal and provincial
governments have agreed to assign a higher priority to training activities
which will enhance
The agreement calls for joint
planning. It calls for consultation and
co‑ordination of activities between the two levels of government. It indicates the intention to involve our
labour market partners in a meaningful way and labour force development
planning in the future and also to foster a training culture in the province.
It addresses specific measures to support
the training of the unemployed and to enhance human resource planning using a
sectorial approach where feasible. The
agreement also stresses the need for developing strategically determined training
planning based on current and emerging skill shortages. It also addresses the need to strengthen the
existing system to ensure that training is accessible, relevant and portable.
Some of the specific areas which are
promoted by the agreement include adult literacy and basic education. They include co‑operative education,
apprenticeship training, adjustment services and programs and also access by
institutions to training funds. In
Ms. Friesen: The question I asked was: How was this particular agreement different
from the others? What I meant was the
other provinces. Everything that the
minister has said seems to me to have been contained for example in one of the
very early ones, which was the
So I am looking for the elements that the
minister has said have led to the delay and that was the made‑in‑Manitoba
approach. So could the minister explain
to us why it took two years to make an agreement, an additional two years, I
should say, for an agreement which sounds remarkably similar to one which was
made in '89.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, well, again, I can say to
the member that there certainly was negotiation on behalf of
Perhaps in the agreement that she seems to
be more familiar with, the
The duration of our agreement is for two
fiscal years. We did take our time in
the process of negotiating an agreement. Part of that, I would remind the
member too, included a time when there were constitutional discussions which
were taking place in the fall and also in the summer of 1992. At that time, there was some question about
where training would fall in terms of the constitutional agreements, whether
there would be any devolution of training.
Across
Secondly, it includes a provision for
As I have mentioned before in the
discussions,
In addition to that, our agreement
specifically states that
Now the provincial government wants to
make it very clear that where the federal government does undertake to support
programs that they will continue to support the programs, where they wish not
to support the programs that then they will answer to the people of
Fourthly, the agreement states that for
six months after the agreement is signed,
* (2050)
So that was another very important clause
within the Canada‑Manitoba Labour Force Development Agreement, because it
showed an agreement by the Government of Canada to allow
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, yes, the last two items I
thought were very interesting when I read them.
A document that talks very glowingly about co‑operation, then ends
up with two items which say, no, do not do it and if you do do it, then it is
going to be on your heads. That is with
the reduction of training. So there was
an overall element of co‑operation about the document, but two items
particularly which certainly spoke to the provincial suspicion about federal
actions and federal programs.
There are a number of questions which
arise out of the minister's answer and I wanted to clarify something at the
beginning. The minister said that there
were five areas that she had just spoken of that were different and I was not
sure which five areas she meant. Did she
mean the apprenticeships, the access by institutions, the adult literacy, and
there were two others before that, or was she talking about the sectors there?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the areas specifically that
are different are the four which I mentioned.
However, they are taken from the specific areas of co‑operation
that I gave her‑‑co‑operation, collaboration and
complementarity. Of the five specific
areas which I mentioned from the agreement, the adult literacy and basic
education, the co‑operative education, which again is referenced in the
second point that I raised to the member, it includes provision for
The member seems to feel that these do not
speak to co‑operation. Co‑operation
collaboration, the complementarity comes in the planning of labour market plan
and for the labour force, but if the member has some objection to our, on
behalf of Manitobans, standing up to say that Manitobans expect the federal
government to live up to their commitments, Manitobans expect the federal
government to fulfill the commitments that they have made and
The area of Labour Force Development
board, if the member has some problem in
Ms. Friesen: When the minister speaks about co‑operation
and the task team on college access, could she give us a bit more information
on that? How is this different than
other federal‑provincial agreements?
Mrs. Vodrey: In the area of the colleges, the joint
federal‑provincial management committee, under the Labour Force
Development Agreement, has established a task team to look at how the colleges
will be ensured fair access to federal training dollars such as the
Unemployment Insurance Developmental Uses Fund.
Unlike many other provinces,
These new arrangements will provide the
colleges with a level of revenue security in the wake of reductions of
government‑to‑government purchases of training. I gave the member, by way of example,
Ms. Friesen: In the period that it has taken for this
agreement to be signed, and in spite of the fact that the minister talks about
co‑operation and the goal of achieving revenue security for the colleges,
in fact what we have seen is close to, even in this past year, a 30 percent
reduction in federal purchases with, I would assume, no co‑operation and
no recognition of the needs of the colleges for revenue security.
Can the minister explain why this has happened,
and is it her view that a speedier signing of this agreement would in fact have
given the colleges that security for this past year as well as, we hope, for
future years?
Mrs. Vodrey:
I believe that reduction took place when
the former government was in power. They
were frozen around this level while negotiations for a new agreement were
negotiated, and for 1993‑94, the level of direct purchases was reduced an
additional 25 percent to $9.9 million.
The reduction of this direct government‑to‑government
purchase of training is not a new phenomenon, nor is it restricted to this
province. This reflects the federal
training strategy, which seeks to replace the government‑to‑government
arrangements with the federal government and the most appropriate deliverers of
training. They would like to replace the
previous government‑to‑government arrangements with agreements
between the federal government and the most appropriate deliverers of training,
and that may be the colleges.
Ms. Friesen: This recent drop of 24 percent that the
minister made reference to, surely the instability that that has caused for
students, for programs, for community college planning, surely that could have
been avoided if the minister had been able to sign the agreement, as it
appeared we were ready to sign in '91.
* (2100)
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, again, as I said to the
member, this is not restricted to the
We did move the colleges to governance
with the understanding that the federal government was planning this
reduction. This allowed for the colleges
to do the kinds of negotiating which the federal government had in mind, and
that is direct negotiation, government with the training deliverers, as opposed
to government‑to‑government negotiations and flowing through the
government of
Because the guaranteed levels of revenue
at the colleges has declined during the past decade, and I would point that out
to the member, the colleges have had time to change their way of doing business
in order to attract other indirect forms of federal revenue. Again, moving to college board governance,
this model has enabled the colleges to be more responsive and also more
adaptable to the local Canada Employment Centre's training demands.
Ms. Friesen: An agreement which puts some constraints on
the federal government in the sense of requiring co‑operation and
requiring joint planning, both of those I think are good things which are
contained in this agreement. Surely, if
they are good for this coming year, they would have been good for the last year
when we have seen a rather large drop in the amount of federal programming,
federal dollars going to community colleges.
My concern is again the instability for the colleges and for the
reduction in programs which has occurred this past year at a time when both the
minister's own reports and I think the waiting lists at community colleges show
that there is an increasing demand for community college programs.
So those are my concerns. I am not sure whether the minister shares
them. I certainly agree with her that
the federal government has continued this kind of a policy for many years, and
it has done it in a number of provinces, but other provinces, it seemed to me,
moved more quickly than
I can move on to other questions. We seem to be at a deadlock on that one. I have expressed my concerns about it. The
minister has given her answers.
I want to ask about the progress of this
agreement, now that it has been signed, where we are since March in a six‑month
period when this section of the department will be setting in motion the
planning for the creation‑‑and here this is a question‑‑of
a provincial labour force development board and local boards. Has that actually been agreed upon yet? What is sort of the plan for this six months?
Mrs. Vodrey: Since the signing of the Labour Force
Development Agreement, the province and the federal government have been
working together in a joint management committee. There were a number of issues which need to
be worked out, and they have been working very well. I will be looking to make public some
information on that fairly shortly.
Ms. Friesen: I asked whether there had been agreement yet
whether to set up both provincial boards and local boards. Has that actually been decided yet, or is
that even on the agenda?
Point of
Order
Hon. Linda McIntosh
(Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I
took my place at the table, there were two empty chairs. They were empty for 12 minutes after I took
my place. Let it be known the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) has now asked me
to leave this chair because he wants to sit here instead of over there.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister did not have a point
of order.
* * *
Mrs. Vodrey: As I explained to the member, we will be
looking to release some information regarding our consultation process which
will lead to the formation of our provincial board. Excuse me. I have not made that announcement
yet‑‑
Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. That is about enough. If we could have just a
little bit of order here so that the minister could be heard, I would
appreciate it.
Mrs. Vodrey: As I said to the member, we have had a joint
management committee working. As a
result of the work of that joint management committee between the federal
government and the provincial government, we have worked out some details of a
plan for consultation which was promised and which had been discussed. With that then we looked to that leading to
the development of our provincial board.
Ms.
Friesen: There was some concern, I
think, during the negotiations as to whether, what are called in the context of
this agreement, the equity groups would be represented at the consultation
phase and at the representative stage of the boards. Are we at the stage yet where the minister is
able to reassure those groups that they are involved?
Mrs. Vodrey: As I said, I will be making an announcement
regarding the consultation process. I
have not made that announcement yet.
Ms. Friesen: In the process that is being established, will
local boards be established necessarily, or is that one of the questions for
the consultation?
Mrs. Vodrey: I know what the member is referring to which
was the original vision, or sense, put forward by the federal government of how
the boards might work or what the structure might look like, not necessarily
how they would work. I can tell her that
there are no local boards functioning across
Ms. Friesen: The minister speaks about the public being
able to look at the proposals. Could she
tell us what kind of public participation there will be in the development of
the provincial boards or in this phase of consultation?
* (2110)
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, again it would not be
appropriate to predict or to give that information until the process of
consultation at least has been announced and we have that information.
Ms. Friesen: Does the minister anticipate that in the provincial
board that there will be a role of participation for the provincial government?
Mrs. Vodrey: If the member is asking about how
Ms. Friesen: No, my question was not directed at this
stage at the flow of the money, it was at the representation on the board, and
does the province anticipate having a seat on the board?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, I have said several times
that I have not yet announced what the process of consultation will be leading
to a structure which would follow. When
I make that announcement, then the information will be available.
Ms. Friesen: Could the minister indicate‑‑I
guess we have about two or three months left‑‑when she anticipates
making this announcement?
Mrs. Vodrey: As soon as possible.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, since 1992, if not
earlier, but certainly in the last year of the Estimates, one of the
anticipated results of this section of the department was that there would be a
Labour Force Development Strategy. So
far, I have not seen one. We are, I
guess, 18 months behind last year's Estimates.
Could the minister tell us whether that is something she expects to see
this year as she has listed it on the Expected Results, or is this something
which is not going to take the form of a final report? Is it going to be something which is in
process?
Mrs. Vodrey: We did look to have some information
available. However, I would like to remind the member that some work was
delayed of necessity by the outcome of the national constitutional referendum
on the Charlottetown Accord. In that
there was consideration of the devolution of some of the skills training and
some of the powers and the division of powers between the Government of Canada
and the provincial governments.
So we had to look at that process, which I
will remind the member began in the summer of '92 and was completed with the
referendum in October of '92, and at that point there was still some question
around the issue of devolution. However,
I tell the member now that we are working very carefully, and I would also say
as well we also looked in terms of that strategy to the finalization of the
Canada‑Manitoba Labour Force Development Agreement because that does
account for some of the focuses and the complementarity and the sharing of
information between the Government of
In addition, we also have now taken a
third step, and that is the reorganization of the provincial skills training
programs, and in the past, as the member will know, some of the skills training
programs were housed in the Department of Family Services, yet apprenticeship
housed in the Department of Labour. Those programs have now moved into the
Advanced Education and Skills Training division of the Department of Education
and Training. We are looking at the
reorganization. We are looking at the
most efficient organization. With all of
that now housed within one area, we will also be able to use that consolidation
now as we develop that particular strategy and the details of that strategy.
I can tell the member that the main theme
of the strategy will be policy integration, and that we will be looking for our
labour market development to be complementary and supportive of government's
economic strategy and also the regional thrust of the provincial economic
development policies. We would also look
for the inclusion and relation to the strategy on sustainable development which
has been brought forward by this government.
So there were three reasons which
accounted for a delay in what we had been looking to achieve. We are now working on that and, as I said, we
look for the main theme of the strategy to be policy integration including
three of those areas that we have discussed.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it seems to me that at
least two of those areas were within the province's jurisdiction, that is, the
reorganization of the department and the delays in the signing of the Canada‑Manitoba
Labour Force Development Agreement.
Certainly, the Constitution and the referendum that went along with that
were beyond the control of this government, but it seems to me that the
arguments that the minister is advancing for essentially an 18‑month
delay in what would presumably be a basic tool of any government seems to me a
circular argument: yes, we are late
because we delayed in other areas. It
seems to me an unusual form‑‑well, not an unusual form, but
certainly a circular form of explanation.
I would like to ask the minister about the
nature of the strategy that she is developing, and I thank her for telling us
that the basic theme of it is going to be policy integration, because it does
bring to my mind some of the areas of other strategic thrusts of this
government that have been talked about for many years but have never
appeared. One of those is an aboriginal
strategy, an aboriginal education and training strategy which one would have
anticipated seeing as part of the Urban Aboriginal Strategy or indeed of any
aboriginal strategy on the part of this government.
It seems to me any government of
* (2120)
I want to ask about that element of the
minister's policy in this section. Has
there been a consideration of an aboriginal education strategy, an aboriginal
Labour Force Development Strategy or an aboriginal basic education strategy
that would become part of this policy integration theme of a provincial labour
market policy?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, I just have to make a
comment on the member's statement about the issue of devolution appearing to be
very insignificant to her in the signing of the Labour Force Development
Agreement. I can tell the member that
was not insignificant. In fact, it was
significant. The member perhaps would
have signed an agreement and then had to renegotiate when any constitutional
arrangements regarding the division of powers changed. That was a consideration in the process as we
watched and as
In terms of the Urban Native Strategy, I
know she would like to speak to my colleague the Minister for Northern and
Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) on that when she has the opportunity to discuss his
Estimates with him. He is the one who
will be able to provide her with more information. The Department of Education and Training,
however, is always considering Manitobans and their educational concerns.
The department, as I was saying, is
continuing to develop and to implement programs that will help promote and
increase the level of educational attainment and labour market success among
I would like to point to one new area, the
Aboriginal Apprenticeship Training Initiative conducted by the Apprenticeship
Branch in co‑operation with a committee representing most aboriginal
communities in
However, I would also remind her that we
have discussed at great length other programs which relate to aboriginal
education. We have discussed this
afternoon and for several days last week the issue of the ACCESS programs, and
we have also not discussed in detail yet, though I know we will get to it
within the next while, the literacy programs.
I am sure she has heard of the community‑based literacy programs,
and this literacy program that is community‑based and learner centered
allows aboriginal leaders to have a major role in the program delivery.
We spoke at the very early part of the
Estimates process about the Human Resources Opportunity Centres. We have also spoken about the Single Parent
Job Access Program, and I know as we reach the employment enhancement programs
we will speak more about that, also the community‑based employability
programs, projects, and the Gateway projects.
So there are a number of programs in place; however, there are those
which are being developed.
I just have a couple of other examples of
new programs: One in co‑operation
with Opasquiak First Nation; a child care curriculum is being developed and
delivered integrating traditional aboriginal content. That is at
In addition to that, at
At Assiniboine Community College, in 1992‑93,
programs have been or are being delivered in co‑operation with 13
aboriginal communities and organizations in employment preparation, licensed
practical nursing, developmental studies, literacy life skills, customer
relations, microcomputer applications, building construction, drywall
applications, bricklaying, school bus driver, and native small business.
Then at
Ms. Friesen: I thank the minister for that list. It does not, of course, address the ones that
have been cut, the Adult Basic Education programs, the New Career programs, the
Student Social Allowance programs, the various sections of the ACCESS programs,
but it does indicate some new activity in some areas.
When I was speaking of a strategy, I think
that what we generally understand by a strategy is a sense of a goal, a clearly
articulated goal of where the province should be going in aboriginal labour
force development. We look for some
indication of the pace and rate of change and some sense of the time over which
certain expected results will be achieved.
So I wonder what part that is going to
play in the minister's plans for developing, first of all, a provincial Labour
Force Development Strategy and then, second of all, for a significant part of
that which I think will be the aboriginal strategy. It would seem to me that we would need to
know some basic statistical information which has not always been available
through this department, particularly under the Native Education Branch when we
asked about how many native students there were.
But it would seem to me you would need to
know what skills exist in the aboriginal community, what skills are going to be
in demand five to 10 years from now, or whatever the length of the Labour Force
Development Strategy will be, and how essentially we get from here to there,
what the age structure is of the community, what the level of unemployment has
been, what the long‑term unemployment has been, and how we are going to
reach whatever goal it is that the province is choosing to set in this area.
So it is that level of planning that I am
looking for. I realize that those are
quite extensive demands in terms of any staff or any program manager. Labour force development plans are ones that
I think have to be continually updated and certainly have to be relevant in
terms of the five‑ to 10‑year planning cycle that one could look at
in this area.
So it is not that we are looking for a
perfected plan that is put in place, but I am looking for some sense from the
minister that there is a recognition that these kinds of plans have to be
developed, because the evidence that we have so far is that there are new
programs in some community colleges, there is a reduction in some areas, and so
it is very difficult to see where the plan is going and where the province is
going.
So I wonder if the minister would take
this opportunity to perhaps give us some sense of the direction of where she
plans to take this area over the future.
* (2130)
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, in the Partners in Skills Development,
the report of the Skills Training Advisory Committee, there is a section which
speaks about employment equity for natives.
This speaks about the requirement that native people receive equitable
treatment in the labour market, they must begin with the development of skills
through education and training. It
reflects on the 1986 census report, which indicated that in that particular
report, 60 percent of native people in
(Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson,
in the Chair)
Then it speaks about projections that
native workers will comprise an increasingly large proportion of the labour
pool in the decade ahead. It does refer
to‑‑the member asks about statistics. It certainly refers to recent estimates by
Statistics Canada that indicate 16 percent of on‑reserve native youth
will complete high school and speaks also about some literacy issues relating
to native people.
So I wanted to point that out. The member might be familiar with this
report, which was released by my colleague now the Minister of Rural
Development and the former Minister of Education in August 1990.
I tell her that so that she is aware that
this government has had the issue for skills training for native people
certainly on its agenda as an active item.
If she raises it tonight, speaking about it, wanting to speak about
statistics, then in fact that has certainly been a consideration for this
government.
Then, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I
would like to point to the High Demand Occupations in
That list then is the forecast, and the
member has spoken about the need for forecasts.
I wanted to point out to her that that work as of September '92 has also
been released.
Then the member speaks about the community
colleges, and we have talked about the community colleges having moved to
governance and, as they move into governance, some of the changes that they
have been bringing about.
I have read to her the initiatives that
have taken place at each of the three community colleges as they put a greater
effect to the plan to work on behalf of native people.
So I think that to this point we certainly
have the broad goal, we certainly have looked at some objectives and ways to
meet that broad goal, and we also have some plans in action at the moment on
behalf of native people in our community colleges and also a forecast regarding
occupations.
Ms. Friesen: The assumption the minister made in that
response is that native people will remain in native communities. She gave me the list of occupations in '92
for aboriginal communities. At least,
that is what I understood her to say. My
question was really based upon another assumption that
So I ask the minister again, the very
number that she provided of 16 percent of students on reserves completing high
school, is that 16 percent going to be enough to fill the high skill jobs, the
high‑demand jobs, the high tech jobs that the government's economic
programs are supposedly gearing us for?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, I would just say to
the member that when I spoke about high‑demand occupations in
to‑‑I am not sure what the
member had in mind when she commented on that list of what was needed within
aboriginal communities.
In terms of the statistical information,
she did ask for the statistics. I did
refer her to the recent estimates by StatsCan and realized this report was in
1990. Recent estimates by Statistics
Canada in 1990 indicate that only 16 percent of on‑reserve native youth
complete secondary school.
In
However, what we have done is for the
establishment of our Native Education branch.
Certainly we have been looking at providing the supports, and I will
remind her that that branch provides support to both native education and also
to schools which want to know more about native education and culture. So we did speak about the type of curriculum
that has been developed, the supports.
We spoke about the co‑operation of the Native Education branch
with the federal government. Those
questions were asked by her colleague the member for
In addition, for those young people of
aboriginal background, I have spoken at length about our Student Support
Branch, and the target to at‑risk young people, and that those programs
are developed at the community level by local schools. They can apply for funding to the Student
Support Branch, and I think that when we went through that area, I gave several
examples of the kinds of programs which are in place, which have been funded
through Student Support Branch. The
important part is that we have been making an effort through several different
parts of our department to address the issues of native education, and not simply
cluster it under one heading.
Ms. Friesen: The minister made reference to a list which
indicates occupations in demand in aboriginal communities and on reserves. Could she give us a sense of some of the
items in that list?
Mrs. Vodrey: Some of the items are teachers, alcohol and
drug abuse counsellors, certified tradespersons, plumber, electrician,
carpenter, heavy‑duty equipment mechanic and, in the area of other
trades, small engine repair.
Ms. Friesen: The minister was trying to tell me earlier
that this essentially was the
Again, my question was: With 16 percent graduation from high school,
how are we going to find the people to fill those high‑tech, high‑skilled
jobs that the government is aiming its economic plan at?
Mrs. Vodrey: Again, the sources of highly skilled labour
now and in the future will need to come from our aboriginal people, but they
will also need to come from women, from the immigrant population and other
sources that are traditionally drawn upon in terms of developing our skilled
labour force. I have spoken about a
number of programs.
* (2140)
I believe that we have spoken about young
women in school and our efforts to interest young women in the maths and the
sciences. I believe we also had some
discussion about the ESL classes, English as a second language, to support
young people as they come into school as well, so that they will be able to
become engaged in the process of learning and be able to make the very most of
their education here in Manitoba.
Ms. Friesen: I do come back to the basic issue that with
one in five, or one in four, entering the labour force by the end of this
century, being aboriginal and a graduation rate from high school of 16 percent,
that, to me, does not bode well for the future of Manitoba.
Again, I want to ask the minister‑‑this
has been a long, long problem; it is not something that is solved
overnight. But I think it does need to
have a plan; it does need to have a strategy.
That is why I am looking for the Labour Force Development Strategy from
this government, which has been promised for a year and a half now, at least. I would hope that it would have some particular
consideration of the very long‑term unemployment in aboriginal
communities, and the very major changes that need to be made, not only to
ensure that the graduation rates from high schools are expanded, but that the
employment rates in the community and the long‑term unemployment those
people have suffered from at least begins to change. That is what I am looking for, is a strategy
to address that.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I did say to the
member earlier that we have a number of initiatives in place. We have the broad goal in place. We have objectives, and we have some
initiatives.
Our labour market strategy will be looking
at building on these initiatives. We
will be emphasizing improved access to the system, and we will be looking at a
full participation, within the labour market of Manitobans.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, one of the
elements of a strategy, as I suggested at the beginning, was that it did give
some indication of the goal and of the pace and rate of change, and some
indication of the expected results over a period of years.
Could the minister indicate to us what any
of those elements might be in a labour force development strategy for
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I was saying
earlier, we know that from the 1986 census, aboriginal young people from 15
through 24 were about 8 percent of the labour force. The prediction we have is that by the year
2001, they will form approximately 12 percent of the labour force. We recognize that increase in percentage and
proportion is significant, but we do believe that it is well within
Within the STAC Report‑‑I will
refer the member back to that‑‑from 1990, released by my colleague
when he was Minister of Education, in the Native Education and Training
Strategy one point that was made is that in order to face these challenges the
private sector must work with native communities and also government in
developing native education training and the employment strategy. But we also, again, have to work with the
private sector, and that will be an important partnership and important for us
to continue with those contacts and working relationships.
Ms. Friesen: The STAC Report is an interesting one because
it did set out an agenda for the government in labour force development
planning. The minister keeps going back
to it and saying, yes, we are concerned because it was in the STAC Report, but
my concerns are that so many elements of the STAC Report have not been
followed, and that here we are two to three years later and the agenda that was
laid out there, albeit in the context of a private‑enterprise private‑sector
kind of solution, but even within that context some of the basic planning
elements do not seem to even have begun yet.
One of the items which was particularly
underlined by the Mauro report was the reorganization of government
departments. Well, two years later that has happened. It also laid out, I think, for the
government's agenda the development of a labour market policy or strategy, and
that is what we are coming to in this section of the department and something
which we have not seen yet.
So I wanted her now to look‑‑
Mrs. Vodrey: I just have to comment on the member raising
the STAC Report. She said I have
referred to it; yes, I have referred to it.
It has provided some guidance for
Then I would also point out Workforce 2000,
which was a major partnership initiative.
That partnership initiative has to date trained, I believe it is over
5,400 Manitobans in terms of that partnership. (interjection) I am asked to
repeat the number. Workforce 2000 has, in partnership with the private sector,
trained over 54,000 Manitobans since it began.
* (2150)
Ms. Friesen: One of the recommendations of the Mauro
report or STAC Report was that the government prepare a labour force
development strategy. It would seem to
me that College Governance and, particularly, the emphasis in College
Governance on market‑driven training, Workforce 2000 market‑driven
training, would have benefited by a labour market development strategy of this
government, a broader context in which both of those changes were going to
operate.
If I can turn to the broader section of a
Labour Force Development strategy, perhaps to begin, by asking the minister
about‑‑what a Labour Force Development strategy does in my mind,
though maybe I have a different approach to it than the minister, is that it
essentially looks at the kind of population base that Manitoba has, the kinds
of skills that exist in the population at the moment, and tries to match those
with some projections, as best as can be done, of the needs of Manitoba in the
future in a five‑ or a 10‑year kind of phase.
Every province has to rely to some extent
upon Statistics Canada material. Some
provinces supplement that by their own investigations. My assumption is that
I wonder if the minister or her staff
through her have any concerns about the kind of information that we are now
getting from Statistics Canada using smaller samples. I mean,
Mrs. Vodrey: We do require statistics from a number of
sources, as we do use the Statistics Canada Census data, and also the labour
force survey. We use the Employment and
Immigration, Canada Employment Centre Job Bank data. We also use the unemployment insurance claims
by occupation. We also use the Stats
Canada survey of employment, payrolls and hours. We use the college enrollment reports,
statistics from the Canadian Labour Market and Productivity Centre, and also
the national training survey.
So we try to acquire statistics from a number
of sources, but I can say that the member raises the issue of the smaller
sample that Statistics Canada uses. We
recognize that too and have sent a letter to the Chief Statistician of
Ms. Friesen: Did the minister get a response on that? Are there proposed changes? I assume that our concerns are not unusual.
Mrs. Vodrey: The letter, I am informed, was sent
approximately two weeks ago. We do not
have an answer yet. The Deputy Minister
of Education will be attending a meeting at the end of June in
Ms. Friesen: I wanted to look at the other side of the
equation, that is, the prediction of jobs required. The government's economic framework suggests
high‑skill, high‑wage jobs, although I am not sure that the
evidence is there to associate the two, but certainly high‑skill jobs.
I wanted to ask the minister about the
prediction of future jobs and how the government goes about that. There is less Statistics Canada material for
that, for
Mrs. Vodrey: The member asks how we do some of the
planning, and I would say that, first of all, forecasts are a very critical
planning tool in preparing for new and existing programs. Forecasts are
developed by Manitoba Education and Training in co‑operation with the
federal economists at Employment and Immigration Canada. Forecasting methodology is continually being
improved as new sources of information are discovered, and forecasts are
revised annually to reflect changing conditions. Labour market forecasts are
integrated into the parameters of a large number of government programs.
Ms. Friesen: My question was method. How is it done? You told me whom it is done in co‑operation
with. You have told me that it is
updated and that it changes continually.
Yes, I accept all that, but what is the method?
* (2200)
Mrs. Vodrey: The head of our Labour Market Policy Unit does
work on the labour market forecasting methodology and certainly does some
speaking about it as well in
Thirdly, he looks at issues of
technological change, impacts on existing production and delivery processes,
new product development, productivity changes.
Then he also looks at any political decisions which might have an
impact, such as free trade agreements and changes to the UI program. Then in the area of industry employment
forecasting, he looks at real output forecasts from leading economic
organizations, then undertakes forecasts of participation rates, unemployment
rates, which lead to total employment levels when applied to population
projections.
Then he uses other employment forecasts as
a check. Then also, will undertake an
industrial employment forecast to match total employment forecasts. Sources of industrial information include the
CEC labour market information analysts, newspaper clippings, network of
provincial contacts, and in terms of data sources used, as I have said earlier,
the census, survey of employment, payrolls and hours, labour force survey and
Statistics Canada indicators.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The hour being after 10 p.m., what is the
will of the committee? Continue?
Continue.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Okay.
We are going to continue, but we are going to take a 10‑minute
break for the staff to be able to stretch their legs, please.
The House
recessed at 10:04 p.m.
After
Recess
The House
resumed at 10:17 p.m.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, before the break we were
looking at the method used by the department to estimate employment
projections. I just wanted to follow
that up.
There is a long list of elements that go
into the creation of employment projections.
I wanted to ask the minister how often is that done? Is this a one‑year event that is then
sort of updated each year, or is it a two‑to‑three‑year or a
10‑year projection?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in the past, these
have been done by Education and Training, by our labour market area. They have
been done once a year, and they have looked at a 10‑year period.
Now, with the management committee that we
have operating, we are now looking at forecasting with the federal government,
because we are looking to put into practice the concepts of complementarity and
the lack of duplication‑‑but, instead, now a co‑ordinated
approach with the federal government.
Ms. Friesen: So it is being done in conjunction with the
federal government. Will that change the
once a year in a 10‑year projection analysis?
Mrs. Vodrey: No, it will not.
Ms. Friesen: So how it is different from what has been done
in the past, because in the past a considerable amount of federal information
was used?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, now we are actually
working directly with federal researchers.
In the past, yes, we did use information which came from the federal
government. Now the relationship is a
much more co‑operative one, in that we are working with the federal
researchers. Also, the federal
government and the provincial government are now using the same information.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am still not clear
on how different it is. Was the federal
government unco‑operative before?
I doubt that is the case.
What elements of different information
were being used before, because the 10‑year projection that we are
working with now was based upon an earlier practice. I am concerned about what the difficulties
were with the earlier practice, if any.
* (2220)
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the process is much
the same, but the outcome meets the principle of complementarity. It is now much more an integrated
manner. We believe that it is more efficient
and effective, because the linkage is now complete by working directly with the
federal researchers.
In the past, there were two parallel
systems, and now, as I said, we are looking to really put into practice that
principle of complementarity. More than
any other time, both levels of government will be targeting their labour force
development efforts in a co‑ordinated fashion to enhance
Ms. Friesen: The federal researchers that the minister's
staff will be working with, are they in
Mrs. Vodrey: Those researchers are in
Ms. Friesen: In the Canada‑Manitoba Labour Force
Development Agreement,
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the agreement does have
somewhat of an emphasis on the Unemployment Developmental Uses programs. However, I can say that it really does seek
to consider and look at the full skills training spectrum.
In actually applying that, we look at the
common forecast, the common labour market forecast which is now developed
between the Government of Canada and the government of
So it is to look at all the needs, not
just the unemployment and the developmental uses needs, though certainly a
large amount of training funds flows from the unemployment developmental uses
program.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, could the minister give
us perhaps a description or a profile of the skills basis and, hence, the
skills needs of
Mrs. Vodrey: In the Manitoba Labour Market Information
Bulletin, the May '93 one, and these bulletins come out monthly, I refer the
member to looking at the bulletin. Page
14, for instance, will give labour market characteristics by educational
attainment and by sex so that you would be able to look at number of years of
schooling, men and women, and then look at the employment rate, the unemployment
rate and the participation rate. That is
compared year over year.
I have tabled the April one, and then on
page 15, the Manitoba Labour Market Characteristics: Educational Attainment by Age, and that
breaks down by age and by years of schooling, and then the employment, the
unemployment and the participating rate.
With that, what we have tried to do is
look at where there is employment/unemployment, what the characteristics are,
recognizing that it is very hard to draw together or to roll into one specific
characterization what that unemployed person or persons might look like.
Ms. Friesen: Yes, the information that is in the Labour
Market Information Bulletins is useful because it is on a similar basis to
other provinces, and there can be comparisons.
What I am particularly concerned about and
the basis my questions are coming from is that over the last two or three years
it seems to me that the big areas of unemployment have, in fact, come in highly
skilled labour. I am thinking of Air
* (2230)
But it would seem to me that an analysis
of the skills, not just the education level but the skills and the experience
of Manitoba's unemployed, would be a critical factor in trying to determine
what kind of skills training to implement in the province. It would be part of any kind of useful labour
force employment strategy.
So, yes, we do have the comparable basic
educational information, but we do have some changes in the
So I am asking from the minister some
indication of something that goes beyond the basic Statistics Canada
information and looks at Manitoba in terms of the skills that we have, the
unproductive skills that are now there in our unemployed population, and how
the minister's programs such as Workforce 2000, such as the community college
programs, are actually addressing that kind of unemployment.
Mrs. Vodrey: In terms of looking at the employment supply
and demand, we do look at what the supply is available, and in looking at the
supply, in matching the supply to the demand, I went over a number of factors
which affect the labour market supply, issues such as demographic changes‑‑I
am sorry, maybe I did not refer to this page specifically before. Some of the issues to be considered are
slower population growth, the aging of the population, the increasing
proportion of native people and the immigration levels.
Secondly, we look at education attainment,
higher levels of educational attainment, persistency of high high school
dropout rates. Also, we look at
illiteracy and lack of numeracy.
Then in terms of the labour force
participation we look at increasing numbers of working women, the trend towards
earlier retirement, and more families with two‑income earners.
Fourthly we look at the mix of skills, the
lack of scientific or technical skills, the outdated skills of older workers,
and we also look at interprovincial standards of accreditation.
When we have had a look at the supply,
those factors affecting the supply, we look to the labour market for the demand
to do the match. With that particular
match, we will then come out with an area in which there is a greater demand
than there is the supply of workers with those characteristics.
With that information, having meshed the
supply and the demand, we are, therefore, then able to look at the forecast in
terms of high‑demand occupations and high‑demand skills. Those are listed in the High Demand
Occupations in
It is from that we get the high‑demand
occupations. So that is the
process. And then in the Manitoba Labour
Market Information Bulletin, the May '93 bulletin, there is a section beginning
on page 18‑‑I am sure the member has seen this one‑‑which
looks at
It goes through management administrative,
religion, medicine and health, clerical, farming, forestry and logging. There is a wide range of numbers of
occupations. Then there is
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, could the minister
indicate to us what conclusions she is actually drawing from those unemployment
insurance claimants and the changes yearly to those? Again, I am particularly concerned by the
fact that many of the recent large‑scale unemployment issues are in fact
dealing with people who do have skills and are highly trained, those, for
example, in health care industries or Great‑West Life again, or in
teaching, for example, and in some of the management and administrative areas.
So what conclusions is the minister
drawing from the patterns that she sees emerging in
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in terms of the
training area, we do look at what the labour market trends will be. We try to make sure that information is
available. Again, in the cases of the colleges
now having moved to governance, we will be looking at the availability of that
information to the colleges as they are also making their decisions and as they
are negotiating with the Government of Canada.
Then I would also point out the Workforce
2000 program, because within that, though those workers are currently working,
one of the important points is that those workers will receive some continued
training, which will allow either the place where they work to remain
competitive or for themselves as workers to remain competitive and retain the
position as their industry starts to make some changes. That, with Workforce 2000, is the partnership
where the cost of that training is shared between government and private
industry.
Then I would say as a third point, where
there is an excess of supply in certain skills, I, T and T, for instance, may
indicate to prospective industries that may wish to relocate in Manitoba that
there is an oversupply of various workers that would be available to them. One of the important points that we have said
why
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, insofar as those highly
skilled unemployed workers are concerned, their only hope is that some passing
company is going to take an interest in the fact that they are unemployed. Does this government have any plans for their
retraining? As the minister mentioned,
Workforce 2000 does not directly address this, so what are the labour force
management strategies for those unemployed workers with high level skills?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the member has been
speaking about some Manitobans who may already have skills in a wide range of occupations,
but, within the High Demand Occupations booklet that I have been referring to,
there also lists a section of high‑demand skills. These are skills that workers might need in
addition to the occupational skills that they currently have. The demand for
these skills is often met by upgrading skills of existing employees, but
individuals also who would like to be hired may be required to have these
additional skills in addition to the basic occupational area.
Some of those skills are small business
management, bookkeeping and accounting, microcomputer skills, marketing skills,
quality assurance, inventory management, presentation skills, blueprint
reading, supervisory skills. There are a
number that are listed in this book, which Manitobans might like to look at to
see if there is some additional source which would allow them to be the most
effective in terms of their new employability.
* (2240)
Also, the federal government has an
Industrial Adjustment Service, and I know that our Department of Labour has the
Labour Adjustment Unit, and I know the member might like to speak with the
Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) about that in the discussion of the Estimates
of the Department of Labour.
With the federal government, in December
1992, Employment and Immigration minister, Bernard Valcourt, announced that
$250 million would be invested over the next five years to support sectoral
partnerships and to develop comprehensive human resource development
strategies.
The objectives of these are to lever greater
private sector funding and to promote economic opportunities through a better
skilled workforce, to prevent redundancy through skills upgrading, and to
develop new, self‑sustaining human resource development partnerships, and
to provide quantitative and qualitative information base to develop and
implement key occupational skills and training standards.
There are five key components in this
particular initiative: sector studies and sector data, and this is to cost
approximately $35 million, which will help business and labour identify and
plan for current and emerging skill requirements; and then council support,
which is cost‑shared funding for employers and workers to establish joint
working arrangements; and then the occupational skills standards at $90
million, funding for the development of standards in the most critical of
occupations; and then skills upgrading, the cost‑shared, skills‑upgrading
training for employed workforce.
I know that, when I was at the labour
market ministers' meeting in January with the federal minister, Bernard
Valcourt, one of the areas that we spoke about was the cost sharing in skills
training. I know we will get to a
discussion of Workforce 2000, but at that time I was able to speak about
So there are a number of components that
are being looked at by the federal government in their sectoral initiative.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, I think that federal
program which the minister speaks of is based upon the assumption that skills
need to be upgraded for the competitive health of a particular sector or for
particular workers or groups of workers to retain their jobs.
The very point I was making is that the
people who have lost their jobs in the large‑scale unemployment in
That is a very particular problem for a
Minister of Education and for a Minister of Labour to deal with. That was the basis of the questions which I
have been asking.
Mrs. Vodrey: Again, there was no suggestion that
individuals might have no skills, but what I did say was that some individuals
who have skills may then wish to add to those skills in order to make their
skills the most applicable in several areas and may also be able to find that
they can apply those skills in areas which they had not thought of before.
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
In fact, if we take a look at some of the
things that have been going on over the last number of years, in particular we
will recall a report as a result of the Free Trade Agreement where it talked
about adjusting to win. Even to a
certain degree, the constitutional debate, I know in terms of which side that I
was on.
I find the whole discussion has been
happening this evening, and a bit late in the afternoon, about the needs. This is what I see, the need of the federal
government to actually play a role in labour adjustment and the constitutional
agreement that would have seen the federal government being downplayed in the
role it could have in the labour force, in adjusting the labour force for
tomorrow's needs.
I did want to say I have found the weight
has been absent, unnecessary and unwarranted, and no matter what the minister
does say on this particular issue, I do not believe she can justify it to those
individuals that are unemployed, looking for work. Many say that if you are out of work, this is
not a recession, this has in fact been a depression.
* (2250)
For individuals, such as myself, who has
been the Labour critic‑‑but the Department of Education has had a
major role to play in this particular agreement‑‑that it is somewhat
disappointing. You do not want to build
false expectations by bringing in agreements and so forth, but what it does do
is it does provide hope and so forth for a number of different individuals that
at least the government is moving in a direction that will see other
individuals retrained and trained and so forth and getting back into the
workforce.
Having said that, I want to move right
into some specific questions of the minister and in asking the minister, does
her department have industries by listings in terms of which industries this
government believes does have good potential growth into the future, and what
it is doing to come up with the courses and the training, retraining to ensure
that we have adequate labour supplies for those industries?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, well, the member seems to
feel that the‑‑I would have to check the words he used regarding
answers that I had given to him, so I will check what he said in Hansard. Perhaps he needs to open his mind to the
wider issues which we have been discussing this evening.
I can tell the member that the
Common labour market interests and program
principles of the two levels of government are embodied in the Canada‑Manitoba
Labour Force Development Agreement.
The
In addition to identifying shortage
occupations, the report details several skills which are in demand, and a wide
range of occupations from small business management to blueprint reading to
problem‑solving skills.
I mentioned those when I went through the
list not five minutes ago‑‑some of those skills. I am sure the critic for Labour, as he has
said, has had an opportunity to look at this book and has accessed it at
another time.
The report also provides a list of
occupations and skills that are in demand in aboriginal communities, and I have
gone through that list this evening for the member. Again, this reflects the emerging need for
aboriginal people to be skilled in areas which have direct and, also, indirect
impacts on the economic and social developments of their community.
As I think I have said, this report is
prepared each year by Manitoba Education and Training officials in co‑operation
with the economic services branch of the regional offices of Employment and
Immigration Canada.
These officials have established a network
of public and private sector contacts to obtain information on the current and
the expected demand for labour. The task
of predicting business closures and layoffs is assisted by Employment Standards
regulations which require that advanced notice be given of any layoff involving
50 employees or more in any four‑week period.
* (2300)
The Labour Adjustment Unit of Manitoba
Labour assists in the mitigation of downside adjustment or where there is some
concern of layoffs. Again, the member
may want to speak to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) when we get to the
Estimates of the Department of Labour, which, I understand, follow Department
of Education and Training. Whether or
not there will be an opportunity for the member in terms of the hours left, I
am not sure. But, if he thinks that this
is an important area, he might want to ask that minister. I can tell him that the unit promotes the use
of the labour management committee model in initiatives to prevent layoffs or
to facilitate redeployment or retraining of affected workers.
The Labour Adjustment consultants referred
to the High Demand Occupations in
I have spoken about the community
colleges, and the
We have also spoken about the Workforce
2000 program tonight, and this program assists private sector employers to provide
training for their own workers. By
providing this assistance, the program ensures that training is driven by
industrial labour force demand and that the industry is equally committed to
increasing the skills level of their workers.
The Skills Training Advisory Committee recommendations have resulted in,
as I have said, a development of government policy in this area.
I gave earlier this evening a list of four
initiatives, I believe there were four that I named, which have been
accomplished as a result of the STAC Report and providing that overall focus,
and then government did act on that.
Colleges moving to governance was one.
Workforce 2000 was another.
Then the STAC Report did speak, I
understand, about the reorganization of government functions and wanted to
include labour market preparation programs in one department, and that is
another initiative which has been accomplished this past few months by
government, where we have moved programs which were previously offered by the
Department of Labour and the Employability Enhancement Programs previously
offered by the Department of Family Services into one area of Advanced
Education and Skills Training, so that the spectrum of training is available,
so that when Manitobans are looking for the kind of program from the community‑based
literacy programs through to the community colleges programs or the Workforce
2000 type of programs where people are working, then we will be able to look at
the kind of program which might be the most beneficial to those individuals.
I also mentioned earlier that the STAC
Report did speak about the articulation, the importance of vocational
education, and the initiative that we undertook with our new funding formula to
allow single‑unit funding of vocational courses, so that a student did
not have to be in a whole vocational program, but rather it allows and
encourages all students to at least take a single vocational credit within the
Senior 1 through 4 years.
I just was wanting to refer to the STAC
Report for the co‑ordination recommendation which was on 29 of that
report and that has already been accomplished.
The member had asked me also for a list of
areas and industries which are key to the future and the areas which have been
identified are aerospace and agrifoods and tourism, hospitality, sustainable
development, environment, health care products, printing and publishing and
transportation. The member had asked for
a list of sectoral areas, and that I believe is the list that he might find
useful and the list that we have been using within this part of the department.
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I did not find that
the question was all that tough and needed such verbal diarrhea in order to get
everything on the record.
Point of
Order
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I would ask the honourable member to retract
that statement, please.
Mr.
Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I
will retract that remark.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I thank the honourable member for that. The
honourable member for
* * *
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in listening to the
response from the minister, I do not know why it is that she chose to answer it
in such a fashion. Sometimes when asked
to make a judgment call in terms of when you should ask questions and when you
should not ask questions, unfortunately, I do not think I should be asking
questions because the minister feels that she does not necessarily have to be
as direct with the answers, and that is somewhat unfortunate.
Point of
Order
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order,
the member has asked some questions. I
did take a great deal of time to provide him with the full information that he
required, which led through the whole process of development and areas, which I
believe he was asking about. Now, if it
is more information that he requires, perhaps he will tailor his questions the
next time.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister did not have a point
of order. It was a dispute over the
facts.
* * *
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, for a number of the
questions, we will just have to save them till concurrence. Then we will see if in fact the minister does
have the same sort of time and so forth to have those types of answers. I want to try and be as specific as possible,
so that the minister can, hopefully, respond to a specific question.
If you drive down a street, you will find
there are a number of positions open in the garment industry where they are
looking for skilled workers. I can
recall a few years ago when the Premier (Mr. Filmon) stood up in Question
Period and said there were jobs available in the garment industry and cited a
good number of jobs‑‑I cannot recall right offhand, I believe it
was somewhere around 500. You quite
often see skilled workers required for the garment industry.
What is the government doing in that
particular industry?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in looking at the
The Vestibule Training Program is being
delivered in an industry training facility.
To date, 32 participants have been accepted into the program with 22
having completed the course. The school is presently full with a waiting list
of 13 participants.
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister
indicate in terms of the‑‑and again, let us deal with the specific
industry, and, hopefully, we will be able to derive what it is the government
is actually doing in terms of labour adjustment.
If you take a look at the garment industry
and you say, this is an industry in which the potential for growth is very
positive, what is this minister putting into place to ensure that the labour
supply is going to be there to meet the future demands, because, as I say, and
I do not know the exact figure, this government was aware of the shortage of
skilled labour in that particular industry years ago. Now, she had mentioned that August of '92 was
when they had found out about it. What
is in place to ensure that the labour demands of this particular industry are
going to be met?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, in the area of the garment
industry, it is an area of high demand.
There is also a very high turnover, I understand from the labour market
staff who are here. I have just read one
program which we have put forward to assist the apparel industry.
We are working to assist them to make sure
that they are trained and are able to use the best equipment in the most
efficient way. But with that high
turnover, then, my colleague, the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik) will also
play an important part in any of the adjustment processes that would come as a
result of some of that turnover.
* (2310)
Mr. Lamoureux: But, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, dealing with
that particular industry, if we take a look at the potential of jobs that are
being lost because we are not able to provide a labour force to be able to meet
the demands of that particular industry for the simple reason that you have‑‑again,
I can go right back to a number of years ago when the Premier stood up in the
Chamber and indicated there were hundreds of jobs available in that particular
industry.
You know, we have had‑‑was it
Wescott that had closed down? No doubt it was because of other factors, but if
in fact you have a labour supply, as the minister earlier this evening was
talking about providing labour supply for industries of trained workers, if
this is an industry that always seems to be consistently looking for employees,
is the government doing what it can to ensure that the labour demands for this
industry are being met?
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes.
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if we go on to an
industry like aerospace and ask the minister in terms of aerospace industries
and other industries that many people believe have great potential for growth,
and instead of going industry by industry, my original question that I had
asked the minister was one of, does the government have a number‑‑like
here are the types of industries where we need to organize or to have a labour
strategy in place, for example, if our garment industry employs 5,000, and you
are anticipating that the garment industry could double by 2010, that you have
to have some sort of an action plan in place.
Does the minister actually have a list of
specific industries where they have good potential for growth in that the post‑secondary
training institutions are, in fact, training to feed that growth?
Mrs. Vodrey: I did give the member a list, and he asked for
succinct and easy‑to‑follow answers. I did provide him with that list, but let me
provide it again. The provincial
priority sectors‑‑
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.
Point of
Order
Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will save the
minister from reading the list again, and I will be sure to read Hansard.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of
order. The honourable minister, to
continue.
* * *
Mrs. Vodrey: I spoke about the aerospace industry as being
a provincial priority sector for economic development, and in 1992‑93,
the Manitoba Aerospace Human Resource Co‑ordinating Committee was
established to address skill shortage and long‑term human resource
planning. Then we spoke about the health
care products industry and the environment sustainable development industry,
all that, and the tourism industry and the agrifoods industry. I also mentioned the printing industry. I believe that was the list that I had
provided the member with, and those are the provincial priority sectors for
economic development.
Mr. Lamoureux: I was just wanting to comment again on the
Workforce 2000 program that the government has.
The minister had made reference to it.
I believe 54,000 individuals have gone through that particular
program. Is there a general breakdown‑‑and
she does not have to read it, but maybe provide the critics of a general
breakdown of where those training dollars are going?
Mrs. Vodrey: We do have an appropriation which deals with
Workforce 2000 specifically, which is 16.4(h).
That might be the area where the member would like to have some very
significant detail on the Workforce area.
However, we do keep information on a regular basis.
We keep it according to a number of
categories in the Workforce area:
agriculture, construction, manufacturing, wholesale and retail trade,
transportation and communications, finance, insurance, realty, community
business and personal and primary and others.
Then within those, within the manufacturing area, you would find the
aerospace, which I spoke about as a priority, the agrifoods area and also the
printing area. So we are able to keep
track, again, by those umbrella titles, of where the training contracts occur
and the numbers of sectorial partnerships, the contracts with large firms, the
numbers of employees trained by area, the provincial contribution in terms of
dollars, and the total value of the training.
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister
indicate which department takes the lead role in terms of the monitoring of
these particular programs, the training that is being provided?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Department of
Education and Training takes the lead in terms of the Workforce 2000 program
and in monitoring the contracts. The
Department of Finance, however, looks at specifically the payroll deduction
area, which is available for the larger firms.
* (2320)
If the member was asking specifically
about a monitoring process, a monitoring process has been established whereby
training consultants are expected to follow up with employers by phone or in
person, and depending upon the nature of the project, to confirm whether the
employer or employee goals or expectations have been met. A form is completed and placed in the project
file.
Mr. Lamoureux: Has the department had any indication from
either the employee‑‑well, I guess it would be primarily from
employees‑‑with respect to the training program and the success
ratio of a particular program?
What comes to mind is Tuxedo Taxi, and I
am not too sure if in fact it received money from Workforce 2000, but there was
some concern with respect to the quality of training that was being provided
and how it was being enforced.
I am wondering if the department does
anything to monitor these or track what is going on.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to put
on the record and to clarify for the member that at no time did Workforce 2000
advance any provincial funds to Tuxedo Taxi.
If the member has a sense or has ever said that happened, that did not
happen.
Upon regular monitoring, the regular
monitoring practices of Workforce 2000 determined that Tuxedo Taxi was not
delivering the training as contracted.
The program cancelled the training contract with the firm. When we were looking at private vocational
schools, under that particular line, it was evident that Tuxedo Taxi did not
qualify as a private vocational school, and that was discovered also by our
regular monitoring.
Mr. Lamoureux: Tuxedo Taxi did not receive any money from the
departments?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, not a penny.
Mr. Lamoureux: From the government?
Mrs. Vodrey: Speaking for the Department of Education,
Tuxedo Taxi did not receive any funds from Workforce 2000.
Mr. Lamoureux: Getting back to the original question, does
the department track any of the training courses that are, in fact, being
provided for employees in those training courses for whatever reasons have not
panned out?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I said earlier in
response to the question, and I am happy to say again, a monitoring process has
been established whereby training consultants are expected to follow up with
employers by phone or in person, and, depending upon the nature of the project,
to confirm whether employer/employee goals and expectations have been met. A form is completed, and it is placed in the
project file.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 4.(e) Labour Market Policy, Planning and
Analysis (1) Salaries $503,300‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures
$42,800‑‑pass.
4.(f) Literacy and Continuing Education
(1) Salaries $320,900.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, one of the provisions
of this department is the development of an Adult Basic Education policy and
strategy for the province. I wonder if
the minister could table that policy.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I believe that very
early in the Estimates, we talked about this, and I told the member back under
the policy section which we covered very early in this Estimates process‑‑the
member asked if this policy was ready yet.
I told her it was in the process of being developed. The member asked who was presently working on
it, and I believe I tabled the names of those individuals who are currently a
part of the program.
Ms. Friesen: Can the minister tell us when it will be
completed?
Mrs. Vodrey: We are looking for an interim report to be
available to the minister in the fall.
Ms. Friesen: In the absence of that policy and strategy,
the minister is continually making decisions, and this year, as we have already
spoken, the minister has eliminated Adult Basic Education at places like St.
Norbert and in some of the jail programs and I believe in some programs for the
disabled as well.
I am wondering what the plan of the minister
is, if she is continuing to make these decisions in the absence of an
articulated policy, one that will not be ready even until the fall.
Where do these kinds of decisions
fit? Are they ones that are already made
in the context of some overall strategy the minister has developed, or are they
simply ad hoc decisions based upon budget lines and the changes the government
wants in certain areas of the budget, particularly education?
* (2330)
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Literacy and
Continuing Education area does operate with a mission statement. The mission statement, the role of the
Literacy and Continuing Education branch, is to facilitate the development and
the delivery of provincially and federally funded programs which meet the literacy
and basic education needs of employed and unemployed adults.
The learner‑centred programs take
place at the community level through school divisions and in the
workplace. The branch also funds
occupational preparation programs for adults through school divisions and
provides funding and support for senior citizens and disabled adult programs.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, well, then, in the
context of that mission statement, were there particular reasons why, for
example, the St. Norbert centre Adult Basic Education or the ones at Headingley
jail were not fulfilling the requirements of a particular program?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in looking at the
Adult Basic Education, the member speaks specifically of St. Norbert and
Headingley. In those areas, some of the
reduction was a reduction with college programming. However, there are still literacy programs
which are operating at the St. Norbert centre. One is sponsored through
Employment and Immigration Canada, and the Headingley program is sponsored
through the Literacy Office.
Additional resources have been provided to
the Literacy Office. There has been
$63,000, in addition, provided. These
funds may be directed to assisting community organizations to address the needs
of clients who may not be taking the ABE programs provided by the colleges.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, surely, there is a
difference between literacy programming and Adult Basic Education programming.
My question remains the same. Why did the minister cut it at Headingley,
and why did she cut it at St. Norbert?
Mr. Deputy Chair, but surely there is a
difference between literacy programming and Adult Basic Education programming,
and my question remains the same: Why
did the minister cut it at Headingley, and why did she cut it at St. Norbert?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the off‑campus
programming, I believe the colleges may be able to look at renegotiating with
the federal government under the indirect purchase, and that off‑campus
programming was for the 7 to 10 Adult Basic Education.
We have talked for quite some time in
these Estimates about the change in the way the federal government is
purchasing training. This may be now
negotiated through the indirect purchase, but, as I just said, the 7 to 10 ABE
is still offered at
In terms of the literacy programming, the
3 to 5 ABE programming is, in fact, literacy training, and those students who
would have taken that particular program will now be referred to our literacy
programs. So that was the reason, in my
first answer, for referencing the additional funds which have gone to the
literacy programming.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, the minister is going round
and round on this one. It is the
minister who cut the programs at St. Norbert and at Headingley. I have asked for a simple explanation of
why. The minister has explained it by
talking about, first of all, other programs which are not necessarily parallel
to the ones which she has cut. She has
explained it, or tried to give an explanation, based on what these people may
do in the future, but that does not explain why she cut these programs. That was my question.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the answer remains the
same, and the answer is: the opportunity
to renegotiate with the federal government for the indirect purchase of the
training in the area of Adult Basic Education, which may be offered off‑campus
from the colleges. We did know that this
opportunity of the college's ability to now work directly with the federal
government and the federal government's change in how they would be funding would
allow for this opportunity.
Secondly, as I have already discussed, the
programming for 3 through 5 is, in fact, literacy programming, and so we have
provided additional funds through our literacy programming to assist and to
support.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there really is no
point in continuing this kind of discussion.
I mean, the minister's reference to a cut in Adult Basic Education,
where a majority of the students were certainly post the literacy stage, to
refer to this as an opportunity is the most unpleasant kind of Orwellian
language, and I really deplore it. I
asked a very simple question of why the minister cut. Now, it may be that the minister has a policy
where she is, for example, it appears to be, transferring Adult Basic Education
to high schools. Is that the strategy,
because that is what it appears to be, that she is transferring it to the
school divisions? If so, there may be a
reasonable explanation for that.
That is what I have been looking for: first of all, the strategy; second of all, in
the absence of the minister's inability to produce a strategy, to ask where her
decisions are leading. To be told in
effect that she has not made these decisions and that these are some kind of
opportunity for people is really‑‑well, it really makes a mockery
of Estimates, and I find it very deplorable on the minister's part.
* (2340)
Point of
Order
Hon. Leonard Derkach
(Minister of Rural Development): On a
point of order, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.
Repeatedly tonight I have listened to the questions and answers given‑‑the
questions by the opposition and the answers given by the minister. I have heard the Minister of Education and
Training explaining very clearly on several occasions an answer to a question
that was asked repeatedly over and over again, and there are only so many times
that you can answer the same question in different ways, so I suggest that we
get back to the proper questioning.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable minister did not have a point
of order.
* * *
Ms. Friesen: Now, I wanted to give the minister an
opportunity to respond to one of my suggestions, which was the apparent
direction that the strategy of Adult Basic Education appears to be taking,
which is to transfer the responsibility to the school divisions. I wonder if I am making a correct assumption
there, or would the minister like to add something or describe more fully the
strategy of her Adult Basic Education policy.
Mrs. Vodrey: I feel the need, first of all, to respond for
the third time for the member in terms of some of the changes in terms of the
courses that the colleges offer. The
colleges did have the programs reduced based on the direct purchase reduction
from Canada, and the member has had a very difficult time accepting that
particular decision has affected a great number of programs and has affected
some of the decisions. So, with that
information that there has been this reduction of direct purchase from
I think that has now been covered three
times and is an answer to the question.
The member might not like the answer, but that is the answer to the
question.
In terms of the second part of the
question where the member has asked in terms of a potential movement towards
school divisions, I have answered the question that we are in fact developing
that policy. I have given the member
information about who is working on that policy that was tabled in the
Estimates process.
I have also explained that I look for an
interim report in the fall, an interim statement from that committee, so I have
also provided her with a time frame. I
have let her know that there is action in the area, and when that information
is available, I will be happy to talk about it.
Ms. Friesen: Well, I have asked the minister for the
strategy. I have suggested to the minister the direction that her actions seem
to be taking that strategy in the absence of her presentation of one. I am not, to my knowledge, getting any answer
on that.
Is it the policy of government to transfer
to the school divisions responsibility for Adult Basic Education?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I have said to the
member, I have not received the recommendations of that particular committee
yet. There are three divisions that are
working on this policy.
One of the areas where I started in the
Estimates of the Department of Education and Training was to speak about
decisions being made with more of a corporate view rather than being made in
isolation. With the three divisions of
Education and Training being involved with the Adult Basic Education policy, I
look to provide the member with that information when possible, and I have told
her that I do look for an interim report in the fall.
Ms. Friesen: Will the minister be making that interim
report available?
Mrs. Vodrey: Again, the report is for the use of the
minister and the department. I will look
at the report and determine at that time if it contains information that would
be useful at that time to release.
Ms. Friesen: So after all this, Mr. Deputy Chairperson,
the minister's inability to present a policy, her inability to respond to
questions of where the direction of that policy is going, referring us
constantly to an interim report, she now says she may not make it available.
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the time frame is not
one that is necessarily designed for the Estimates process of the Department of
Education and Training. I have explained
the time frame and when I expect to have that report.
When the member speaks in her accusatory
words of inability, I would just say to her that everything is not to be ready
for the Estimates of the Department of Education. It is in process. I have described the
process it is going through.
It will be available to the minister to
review when it is presented. I did talk
about this as being internal for the department to be able to study and to make
some decisions totally.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when can Manitobans
expect to see from this government, which has been in power since 1988, a
policy on Adult Basic Education?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have already
described the process that is in place and when I expect to begin to receive
information. (interjection) The member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) does not seem
to have heard the answer. I have given
the answer, that I am expecting information in the fall of this year.
Certainly, it is under the leadership of
this government and this minister that the Adult Basic Education policy is
being developed. I said that the work of
that committee was in progress. The
member has asked for a specific announcement.
I did not ever say that their work was leading to a specific
announcement. We are looking at the
development of a policy.
Ms. Friesen: The minister is looking for the development of
a policy that she is not even committed to announce. What kind of a policy is that?
Mrs. Vodrey: The member asked for the report to be
announced, and I said that I would be looking at the report. She has jumped to some conclusion, maybe due
to the lateness of the hour, that the policy would not be announced. That has never been stated by me at all.
Ms. Friesen: Well, I am having difficulty understanding
this, this is quite true. The minister
does not now have a policy on Adult Basic Education. She is having policy reports done which she
is not committed to making public.
When is she committed to announcing a
policy, if at all? Does she have any commitment to announcing a policy?
* (2350)
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, governments do work
on policies, and the announcement of the policy is often made through the
actions of government, through the actions that are taken by government,
undertaken through the funding of programs.
So as I have said to the member, I am
looking for the information to be supplied.
Then I will determine, government will determine the best way in which
to make the policy available. It may be
in the form of a policy statement. It
may be, in fact, in the form of an action plan, or action.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I look forward to any
policy statement, any action statement in this area, since the minister has
rejected the interpretations of her actions that we have suggested and she
rejects any possibility, it seems to me, of announcing a policy for Manitobans
to examine.
Mrs. Vodrey: I did not reject that. What I said again, and let me say it again,
is that I did not commit to making the report public. However, I will make sure that the policy
developed will be certainly known to Manitobans.
Ms. Friesen: When will the minister make that policy
known, and in what form will she make it known?
Mrs. Vodrey: I will receive the information of the
committee, and then government will make a decision.
Ms. Friesen: What are the opportunities for adults outside
of the perimeter to pursue Adult Basic Education under school divisions since,
in my view, that is where the minister's policy is heading?
Mrs. Vodrey: The opportunities for Adult Basic Education
are, first of all, within any home school division, the day programs, adults
may attend the high school programming within their home schools, within their
own division, and that is at no cost.
There is also some evening programming
which is available through school divisions, and it is available through school
divisions both in the city of
As I was saying, too, within the day
programs we know that there are approximately 1,900 adults over 21 years of age
in the public schools.
Ms. Friesen: Just to confirm that, the list of school
divisions the minister read out was for evening programming, and the second
number she gave me was there were 1,900 people over 21. Could she give me a rough distribution of
those within the city and those outside the city?
Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, that information we would
have available when we get to the school funding appropriation, 16.5.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 4.(f)(1) Salaries $320,900‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $94,400‑‑pass; (3) Grants $812,100‑‑pass.
(g) Employability Enhancement Programs (1)
Salaries $3,936,500.
Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Will committee rise, Mr. Deputy Chairperson?
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The hour being 12 midnight, what is the will
of the committee?
Committee rise.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Committee rise.
* (2000)
HEALTH
Madam Chairperson
(Louise Dacquay): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to
order. This section of the Committee of
Supply is dealing with the Estimates for the Department of Health. We are on item 1.(e) Human Resources.
Would the minister's staff please enter
the Chamber?
Item 1.(e) Human Resources (1) Salaries
$958,400. Shall the item pass?
Ms. Avis Gray
(Crescentwood): Madam Chairperson, I hope the committee will
excuse, I have strawberry sauce all over me.
I just came from the Peter Gzowski gourmet dinner on behalf of literacy,
to raise money on behalf of literacy across this country‑‑(interjection)
I feel like I literally just came from the kitchen, but be that as it may.
This afternoon the minister was speaking
of the number of permanent and temporary employees that would be recruited
throughout the year as indicated under Expected Results in Human
Resources. I am wondering if the
minister could tell us, how does the branch determine or anticipate what the
approximate numbers will be?
* * *
Mr. Marcel Laurendeau
(Deputy Chairperson of Committees): (Moved by
the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen)), seconded by the member for Thompson
(Mr. Ashton), that the committee condemn the Minister of Education (Mrs.
Vodrey) for her failure to plan adequately for students in need before cutting
the Manitoba bursary program.
Madam Chairperson: Order, please.
A count‑out vote has been requested. Call in the members.
* * *
(Concurrent
sections in Chamber for formal vote)
Madam Chairperson: Order, please.
Is the committee ready for the question?
The question before the committee:
It has been moved by the honourable member for Wolseley, seconded by the
honourable member for Thompson, that this committee condemn the Minister of Education
for her failure to plan adequately for students in need before cutting the
Manitoba bursary program.
All those in favour of the motion, please
rise.
A
COUNTED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows:Yeas 19, Nays 23.
The motion is accordingly defeated.
Order, please. Will the second section of the Committee of
Supply please resume.
* (2030)
HEALTH (continued)
Madam Chairperson: This section of the Committee of Supply is
dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Health. We are on page 77, item 1.(e) Human
Resources. Will the minister's staff
please enter the Chamber.
Item 1.(e) Human Resources (1) Salaries,
shall the item pass?
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, the question before we
were interrupted by vote was, I was wondering how this particular section
anticipates the approximate number of recruitments they will have over a year.
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): As one will appreciate, this is an estimate
that is developed each year. It can
vary, and the projection this year is based on a figure which is closer to the
actual activity in this division from last year, because there was lower
recruitment activity because there was less attrition.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us how many waivers
were there for positions over the last fiscal year, waivers?
Mr. Orchard: Quarante‑sept.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister give us a breakdown of the
number of positions that were waivers compared to the number of positions which
were filled by competition, and can he break that down from the director level
up in terms of how many waivers from a director level up?
Mr. Orchard: It was cinquante‑sept, not quarante‑sept.
Ms. Gray: I am having difficulty hearing the minister
because of all the background noise. I
wonder if he could repeat the answer en anglais.
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, 57.
Ms. Gray: Can he tell us, of those 57 positions, how
many of them were at a director level and above?
Mr. Orchard: Yes.
Ms. Gray: I am not quite sure how the answer yes fits a
question that asks how many.
Mr. Orchard: I am sorry for the confusion. I meant yes that we would provide that
information.
Ms. Gray: Could the minister provide that information
for us now since he seems to have all the statistics in front of him?
Mr. Orchard: No.
Ms. Gray: I am wondering why the minister cannot provide
that information, particularly since I would imagine that the department is
sensitized to this particular issue‑‑all departments, not just the
Department of Health‑‑because of the Hay audit that was done a
couple of years ago, where a number of waivers were identified as a potential
difficulty within the Civil Service Commission.
Mr. Orchard: Well, Madam Chairperson, we have the question,
and we are going to provide that information, but we do not have the breakdown
specific in that regard. All I have is
the 57 and the broad categories and the broad reasons why the waivers were
granted.
Ms. Gray: Could the minister provide those general
categories, reasons for waivers?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, I can, Madam Chairperson, and I presume
my honourable friend would like them tonight.
Nineteen of the 57 were selected through
workforce adjustment, and I think my honourable friend can understand why there
would be a waiver there. A further 11
were recent or past recruitment efforts, indicated a competition would be
unproductive; in other words, an attempt was made to fill the position
unsuccessfully in the past, and 19 of the waivers were approved because the
individual selected was the most suitable candidate. Four were part of an approved career
development plan for an employee, and four were for other reasons. I do not have a breakdown on the "other
reasons."
Ms. Gray: Of the four where there was a career
development plan, can the minister indicate, of those four, how of many of
those were affirmative action individuals?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chairperson, I am informed that all of
them were.
Ms. Gray: Does the minister have a breakdown of
statistics that he can table, as we have had in other years, that basically
gives an update of the progress of this department in regard to their
affirmative action targets and objectives?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, Madam Chairperson.
Ms. Gray: Is the minister prepared to table that this
evening?
Mr. Orchard: In terms of regular appointments, 69.4
percent were female; 2.3 were visible minorities; 11.3 percent were native. In
terms of term appointments, 81.7 were female; 4.1 were visible minorities; 6.1
percent were native; 2 percent were disabled.
In an amalgamation of the total
appointments of 290: 79 percent were
female; 3.8 percent were visible minorities; 6 percent native; and 1 percent
disabled.
Ms. Gray: Does the minister have statistics as to how
many members of the affirmative action groups were selected for, what I would
call or what the department would call, senior management positions.
* (2040)
Mr. Orchard: Within the ministry as a whole, women
represent 77 percent of the department's workforce, and women in senior
management the representation in this ministry is 37.5 percent which I am
informed is above the government average.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, for clarification, what
classifications does this ministry consider to be senior management?
Mr. Orchard: A senior officer and above.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, is that including‑‑I
am assuming that is not including institutions such as hospitals‑‑correct?
Mr. Orchard: No and yes.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, the minister mentioned
earlier today that with the workweek reduction that the days off would be
considered leave of absence without pay.
Can the minister indicate to us, that opinion, is that through the Civil
Service Commission? Is that a legal
opinion or where does that come from?
Mr. Orchard: From Bill 22.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, can the minister tell us,
has there been an opinion from the Civil Service Commission in regard to that
those particular days would be leave of absence without pay?
Mr. Orchard: No, I cannot, Madam Chair.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, if a staffperson who is off
that particular day, given that staff are aware what days they will be off and
basically are not working for the government on those days and their pay is
reduced, one might assume that they would be able to go out and find other
employment if in fact they chose to or were so fortunate. Should that be the case and if staff then are
asked to work standby on those days but in fact are unable to because they have
sought other employment, what is the position of the department?
Mr. Orchard: That will not happen, Madam Chair.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, can the minister tell us,
he is basically indicating to the House that if someone chooses not to work on
standby or be called in for emergencies if it is their day off, he is saying
that will not happen. Am I correct?
Mr. Orchard: Well, I think so. The scenario that my honourable friend
pointed in a question two questions ago would not happen.
Ms. Gray: I will rephrase the question. The question then, if someone is not working
on a Friday and it is an unpaid day, my question would be, can or might that
staffperson be asked to be available for standby coverage?
Mr. Orchard: Yes.
Ms. Gray: What if that staffperson refuses?
Mr. Orchard: I guess they have that option to refuse, and
another employee would be asked or attempted to be put on standby.
Ms. Gray: Yes, I am aware that staffperson has the
opportunity or the right to refuse. Then
my further question is, would that staffperson potentially be disciplined for
refusing to work or provide standby coverage on that unpaid day?
Mr. Orchard: I am informed in the negative.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister clarify, now if staff are asked
to work on standby, is that voluntary or is staff required as part of their job
to provide standby coverage?
Ms. Orchard: Again, you know, some will be.
Ms. Gray: Perhaps the minister could repeat or clarify
his answer, because I am not quite sure what the answer was in regard to if
staff now are required to provide standby coverage, is that a part of their
employment? I am not referring to the
unpaid day; I am referring to now when staff are asked to provide standby
coverage, is that a requirement of their job?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, in some cases it is.
Ms. Gray: So technically with this system of these unpaid
days and the need, I would assume in some particular programs to provide
standby coverage, I suppose it might be possible that all of the staff who
would normally provide service the four days out of the five may choose to not
be available to provide standby coverage on Friday. Correct?
Mr. Orchard: Hypothetically.
Ms. Gray: Does the minister have the information about
which services are considered to be essential in terms of which staff in the
department, excluding institutional staff, will be required to work all of the
five days and will not have any unpaid days, or are there any staff in the
department where there will not be any unpaid days?
Mr. Orchard: It is my understanding that all ministry
personnel will be taking the 10 unpaid days.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, has his department
done an analysis? Is he prepared to
share the information as to what the additional costs will be for providing
contingency service on those days when staff will be basically not at work and
other plans will have to be in place?
Does the minister have information as to what those costs will be?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, that would be very sensitive to
whether the individual is called back when they are on standby.
Ms. Gray: Is the minister then indicating there are not
any extra contingency plans that are put in place for those days other than
what are now in place? To me, there
would have to be some extra contingency plans, i.e., after‑hours services
would have to be available as they would be on a Saturday and a Sunday. Is that not true, and if so, what are those
extra costs?
Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend is, I believe, on the
right track in terms of the analysis, but the way that we have been able to
configure the 10 days unpaid leave is to configure the staffing pattern so that
it is reflective of the ministerial target of minus‑two in our salary
reduction or salary account‑‑you know what I mean.
Ms. Gray: Have there been any changes in the overtime
policy in the Department of Health or any control mechanisms put on, given
that, since there may be five days worth of work and staff are only working
four, perhaps that extra work not done on the Fridays might have to be done
other days of the week and that might incur overtime?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, we are discouraging
overtime. We have within the ministry
some overtime hours and that will be very carefully monitored so that it is not
exceeded because of the 10‑day unpaid leave initiative for this budgetary
year. That is going to be very closely
monitored so that we do not have a replacement of cost in part or in full.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, what are the total
amounts of‑‑well, two ways to look at it‑‑either total
amount of hours or total amount of dollars that are paid out in overtime, since
I can see that particular figure is indicated as we go through these
Estimates? Does the minister have a
total figure for the department in terms of overtime, either hours or costs?
Mr. Orchard: We will make best efforts to put that together
for next time we sit.
* (2050)
Ms. Gray: When we receive that information, I am
assuming then that the minister will attempt to assure us that, when we meet
again, possibly, in the next Estimates for the next year, those overtime costs
will not have increased significantly for reasons such as workweek reduction.
Mr. Orchard: That would be a good issue to discuss one year
out, because I would guess not‑‑I mean, we are having a little
levity in some of this discussion here, but every department is under that same
configuration, that it would be very inappropriate if we simply had 10 unpaid
working days, and had it replaced in part or in whole with overtime. We are under stringent instructions to assure
that does not happen.
Ms. Gray: Will the minister admit, however, or does the
minister feel that there will be other additional costs incurred within his
department specifically due to the workweek reduction? Now I understand obviously there will be a
reduction in the salary line for his department, but will there be other costs
that will be incurred in other lines because of impact of the workweek
reduction?
Mr. Orchard: We do not anticipate that. We are budgeting operations within the
ministry this year within 98 percent of last year's salary expenditure in
globe.
Ms. Gray: So the minister feels that there will be no
other contingency plans or services that would have to be put in place on those
Fridays or Mondays or whatever day that staff are taking off, that are
currently now put in place on the Saturday and Sunday. Or does the minister assume that all those go
under a salary line?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, I am not sure I follow my
honourable friend's questions, but as I said, we are building within the
proposal of service provision to meet the minus‑two target in our salary
line flexibility so that we have the ability to maintain essential service
delivery where it is direct care and maintain the 10 days off across the
department.
We have confidence that can be done within
the budget and with contingency plans such as standby that will enable us to
meet our service delivery targets and our financial targets.
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): Just to conclude that line of questioning,
does the minister anticipate any increase in expenditures for contracted‑out
services in the order of VONs or other, for example, home care services, as a
result of the 2 percent downturn in terms of expenditures this year?
Mr. Orchard: No, Madam Chair.
Mr. Chomiak: Just for the record, so the minister is not
anticipating a commensurate increase or an increase at all in terms of
contracted‑out services in order to offset the decrease in salaried
services or services offered.
Mr. Orchard: We do not anticipate that scenario.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us what the standby pay
rate is per day?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, $7.50, $16.50, $23.00, $150 and $100. The last is my deputy and my assistant
deputies. No, I am sorry, that is not
right. The last two are for physicians
who might be required to be on standby call on a 24‑hour basis, $150 or
$100 for a 16‑hour basis.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, why the huge discrepancy
between physicians on call, including MLHs, as opposed to staff?
Mr. Orchard: I think those are incorporated into the master
agreement with MGEA as rates reflective of‑‑the middle rate is lab technologist,
and that is negotiated into the agreements.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chair, I am assuming, with the
physician rates, would those be negotiated into individual contracts with the
physicians?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, in the MMA contract.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, perhaps we should find out
who the negotiators are for the MLHs and pass them on to some of the other
people who do negotiation. They are
probably consistent with other provinces, those rates, but have those rates for
MLHs or physicians increased over the last few years? When is the last time that the $7.50 standby
rate was increased or decreased?
Mr. Orchard: I am advised, for the last several years,
those rates have been consistent and have not changed.
Mr. Chomiak: Pass.
Mr. Orchard: I want to interrupt this progress, here. I have got the bulletin for the Provincial
Nursing Advisor. I also have‑‑I
have got to make sure I do not give too much away here.
Madam Chairperson: 1.(e) Human Resources (1) Salaries $958,400‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $203,200‑‑pass.
(f) Health Information Systems (1)
Salaries.
* (2100)
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I just wonder if the
minister can give us an update of the facility management agreement between
Manitoba Health and ISM.
Mr. Orchard: We are not certain whether it expires December
31 this year or next year. So we will
confirm and provide that information.
Madam Chairperson: (f) Health Information Systems (1) Salaries.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, just a comment for the
record. I think, as we go through these
Estimates, there are many questions in many of the sections, but because of the
interrelatedness of the various sections of this department, some of the
questions in each of the areas can always be asked in another area. So, basically I see our role, as we go
through the Estimates, as sort of amalgamating some of the questions.
If we pass some sections without
questions, I would hate for the Minister of Health, at some later date, to
suggest that we never had a question on that particular area, but in fact I
think we are seeing this evening, and probably through the rest of the week,
combining some questions of the general policy areas.
Mr. Orchard: Just a comment as well, Madam Chairperson, I
have only done that once. My honourable
friend will remember as we sat in the Chamber here and we passed $1.2 billion
of spending in 15 minutes, and I had to do most of the talking. We would not do that again. That was four years ago when we were a
minority government. I would not do
that. I would never mention that kind of
quick passage.
Madam Chairperson: 1.(f) Health Information Systems (1) Salaries
$3,661,900‑‑pass; (2) Other Expenditures $3,465,400‑‑pass.
2. Healthy Public Policy Programs (a)
Administration.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I am wondering if the
minister can give me an update on the status of the AIDS Advisory
Committee. I believe this would be the
appropriate area under which to deal with this.
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chairperson, the last time that question
was posed I think was possibly Tuesday of last week. I think the advisory committee had just
met. The two issues that they are
currently debating, discussing, analyzing are AIDS in our correctional
institutions and AIDS in the aboriginal community.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I apologize. I did not catch those last two points, if the
minister could repeat them.
Mr. Orchard: Last week, when my honourable friend posed
this question, it was I think posed the day after the AIDS Advisory Committee
had met. I am advised that the current
topics of discussion are AIDS in our correctional institutions, the inmate
population, and secondly, in the aboriginal community, as the two major topics
of discussion and investigation.
Mr. Chomiak: Have there been any initiatives or proposed
initiatives launched in either of those areas, because I think rightly so,
obviously, the advisory committee has identified it, and it is public knowledge
that these are two rather serious areas of concern.
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chairperson, as an example on the
aboriginal community and their ongoing educational approach, we provided a
significant amount of help to the AIDS and the Aboriginal Community Conference
that was in The Pas last year.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, is the government
considering any initiatives within the prison population with respect to AIDS?
Mr. Orchard: As my honourable friend might appreciate,
there is a fair amount of discussion around that issue. The committee has not provided any
recommended course of action to government. Should they, we would naturally
give that suggestion serious consideration, but they have not come forward with
any recommendation to date.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, does the minister have any
data specifically outlining incidents of AIDS either in the prison population
and/or the aboriginal population, or both, I should say?
Mr.
Orchard: We apparently have some
information. I do not know how specific
it is to
Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for that, because when I
was touring in the North, I did hear some hearsay and word‑of‑mouth
statistics that were quite extraordinary.
I would appreciate obtaining those particular statistics.
I recognize this is probably‑‑we
have had Partners for Health; we have had initiatives by the government in
terms of wellness. I wonder if the
minister could outline for me this present fiscal year that you are dealing
with, what the major initiatives he sees from this particular government, from
this branch of his department, what are the top two or three priorities that he
specifically sees his department working on?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chairperson, let me understand. Are you referring specifically to the AIDS
initiative or in general?
In general.
Mr. Orchard: Okay.
We are embarking upon a fairly‑‑I do not know how to
describe it, but basically a healthy child public policy initiative under which
we hope to be able to establish some challenges that face service provisions,
what some of the issues around healthy child public policy would be and to
attempt to bring those into a policy focus so that we can undertake some initiatives
maybe with a little more targeted‑‑if that is the appropriate word‑‑use
of health promotion, education and wellness promotion budgets.
The intent here, and I almost hesitate to
indicate because of the risk of creating larger expectations than we are able
to deliver in the short term, this initiative hopefully will receive input and
endorsation from departments other than the Ministry of Health so that it will
cross departmental lines wherein there is responsibility for policy program
focused at children. We think there is a
real opportunity.
There is getting to be a larger
understanding of‑‑how would I put it?‑‑nondepartmental,
narrowed policy areas that we are encouraging staff from several areas of
government to collaborate around the development of a number of
initiatives. This will be hopefully one
of our first initiatives where we bring together some thinking and some
approach which is across departmental lines as well as within the Ministry of
Health.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I would like to get a
little bit more specific with the minister in this regard. I would assume that one of the areas we are
talking about is, for example, provision of child and adolescent mental health
services. I would assume that is one of
them, but more importantly, I would assume that‑‑to say Healthy
Child Development, can the minister specify for me, and for us in the
committee, some of the specifics that he is referring to?
* (2110)
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, look, I am going to give my
honourable friend some‑‑
Specifics?
Mr. Orchard: No, I do not have the specifics because we do
not have the paper. I will be very
pleased to share the specifics when we have the initiative worded and available
for public discussion, but in general terms, there is a growing school of
investigative thought around early coping skills and that area of early child
development.
Researchers believe there is a pretty
strong link with the development of early coping skills and one's ability to
manage life's stress, job stress, family stress, educational stress, any number
of areas. There are some pretty good
indicators that well‑developed early coping skills really improve one's
health status enormously without a necessity to access the formal health care
system. Some pretty significant research
is pointing that if government were to focus some initiatives and some efforts,
it would be at early coping skills.
Now, I am not able to adequately phrase
what early coping skills are. I do not
know whether there is a text book definition per se, because I think, depending
on what professional discipline you might engage in discussion on early coping
skills, you might come with a differing interpretation. But the topic has been
introduced to myself and to the ministry and to a number of individuals in the
health community by Dr. Fraser Mustard.
We had recently the opportunity to have
Dr. Mustard and one of his associates in the Canadian Institute for Advanced
Research, who was a Ph.D in child psychology I believe, into the province to
give us an overview of some of the emerging thinking around early coping
skills. It is a very diverse area. Yet, it is one that has opportunity for some
focus.
It is preschool primarily and it embodies
a component of the importance of early‑life nutrition, the quality of
parenting skills that the child in early development years is exposed to or has
as a support system, starting to get a greater understanding of the importance
of decision making early on and what sort of learning skills, acquired skills,
there are very early in a child's life that help the child later in life to
enable the individual to engage in decision making without maybe some
hesitations and fears.
One of the areas that emerges from some
preliminary research is pretty interesting in that, if you have some of these
development learning skills, decision making, parenting‑‑and
parenting, as I understand it, is not necessarily maternal‑paternal
parenting, but can be grandparent or a significant peer in the community‑‑children
who have that sort of a supportive environment in their very early years tend
to complete higher achievement levels in the education system, for
instance. With women, they have a lower
teenage pregnancy rate. As some of the indications, there is less involvement
in criminal activities; there appears to be a greater achievement level in
terms of employment. It all builds
around the self‑esteem, self‑worth equation that is built into
early child development coping skills.
So it is a new area to me. It may not be new to my honourable friend
opposite and others, but we think there is a fairly significant opportunity to
focus some attention in this area. I
personally believe that within government we adequately resource many areas of
government if we were adequately managing that resource and able to point to an
effective use of the resources from an outcome standpoint. If there is a failure across governments, not
just this one in
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I am actually quite
intrigued by this, and I could probably spend quite a bit of time probing on
this, but there are so many areas to cover.
We have isolated that it is early, and I am quite pleased about that,
preschool. I am quite happy to hear that.
Did the minister say that this is also cross‑departmental, this
initiative?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, the initiative is within this
current division of the Ministry of Health, the Healthy Public Policy, but we
are seeking input and we have a structure of involvement of several other
departments.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I suspect the minister will
be making some announcement on this particular initiative. So I will not go too far. Of course, I do not anticipate the minister
will go too far either, but having said that, can the minister advise‑‑is
this going to be a program announcement of a specific program, for example, in
the schools or delivery in the homes? What is the medium or the forum of delivery,
the vehicle of delivery, the process by which it will be delivered?
Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend might recall I indicated
preschool is the age group that would be focused in on this initiative. Yes, I tell my honourable friend that we hope,
as quickly as the‑‑we envision another discussion paper, much as we
have done in the past in a number of areas within the ministry where we think
there is an opportunity for some pretty significant opportunity for new
approach.
So we are anticipating a discussion
paper. Amongst other things, my
Assistant Deputy Minister of Healthy Public Policy, Ms. Hicks, I have her and
her staff very much pushed to develop this policy, because I think it is an
important‑‑I consider it to be a fairly significant breakthrough in
terms of government approach to services.
Now let me give my honourable friend an
example, and this is something that has frustrated me and we do not have the
ability, seemingly, within the ministry to create the understanding and to
expedite the policy change, but from time to time, I am asked about waiting
lists, for instance, in speech language pathology.
We have a school system wherein we have
speech language pathologists hired in providing services to‑‑well,
I guess kindergarten is the start, kindergarten and Grade 1. Now all the emphasis, all the focus in terms
of early intervention, I think rings as true here as it can ring anywhere. I mean, it just makes absolute sense that if
we are spending resource, we ought to spend it earlier rather than later, but
that becomes a health issue, and of course, we have a program at Health
Sciences Centre, St. Boniface, I think a couple of other service delivery
locales within the ministry at preschool.
* (2120)
Quite frankly, and I am not saying anything
out of context with the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), my colleague, but
they have a pretty substantial resource there.
I make a simple analogy. If we
could just do the magic switch and focus that school resource at preschool, we
would probably‑‑and I just use these figures as example. They do not have integrity in terms of being
researched, but what might take two years from kindergarten and Grade 1 to
provide some remedy, it may well be accomplished in as short as three to six
month work with a preschooler.
I just think, again, this is sort of the
conceptual areas where we are seeking out Healthy Child initiatives across
departments and trying to use the forum of the discussion paper to create the
importance of making this change even though it is a difficult‑‑I
tell my honourable friend quite frankly, it is very difficult to make change
when it is another ministry's department and bailiwick. You have got the transition period of
time. You cannot instantly take
everything out of the school and put it in preschool, because what do you do
with the children?
So you have bridging, and there is a whole
complexity of reasons why the common sense of this approach was not initiated
seven years ago when there was a different government or in the last five years
when we have been in government, but we think we are creating the framework
under which these kinds of cross‑departmental decisions can be more
easily understood and maybe more easily facilitated.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, actually the minister's
comments, for the most part, reflect our thinking entirely with respect‑‑in
fact, I can recall during the Education Estimates complimenting the Minister of
Education and the Minister of Health.
Actually, there is a program called Links that deals with pre‑school
children that I was quite familiar with, that was quite dramatic in terms of
the effect and the end results on pre‑school children. Of course, one of the solutions from an
educational standpoint would be to better utilize pre‑school resources in
the education system by funding some kind of pre‑school and not forcing
school divisions to pick up the cost, et cetera, but that is a whole other
political argument that I do not want to get into.
The minister mentioned Healthy Child Development
as one of the priority issues in this area.
Can the minister mention the other two or three priority areas in the
Healthy Public Policy and Wellness area?
Mr. Orchard: The Healthy Public Policy Division since its
reorganization and restructure some year and a half ago have been working on
women's health issues in an almost similar approach as the child health
area. We do not have a goal though in
women's health of a discussion paper.
This is very much working with women's health issues with a number of
the stakeholders in that area of service provision both as funded agencies to
the department and also as umbrella groups representing women's issues in the
province.
We are also working in this division in
terms of the mammography screening program.
It will be through this area of the ministry that we will complete plans
for whatever initiative and breast screening that we undertake. Midwifery is also in this area. I am, quite frankly, anxious to have
legislation to guide midwifery in
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, has the ministry considered
any initiatives with respect to alcohol labelling and the effects that alcohol
may have on pregnant women and their fetuses?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, about 10 days ago, we participated‑‑the
ministry through AFM‑‑in a fetal alcohol syndrome conference that
ran over two days on a Friday, Saturday, and had a fairly broad invitation from
other ministries of government, external agencies to government, some funded by
the provincial government, some receiving their funding sources elsewhere who
are working with the fetal alcohol syndrome problem in terms of their delivery
framework. There was a pretty
significant involvement by the aboriginal community. The association of Manitoba Chiefs took a
significant role in the two‑day symposium and conference, and the whole
initiative was discussing two areas, I think I could probably, at the risk of
simplifying the conference, summarize into two areas.
First of all, an attempt to get a greater
understanding of the problem, No. 1; and No. 2, to attempt to create the
environment for prevention, because, I think my honourable friend would clearly
acknowledge, fetal alcohol syndrome is an entirely preventable affliction of
unborns.
The aboriginal community‑‑it
was quite a moving opening because an elder in the native community, who is in
the employ of AFM, opened the conference with a pretty direct analysis and
assessment of his perspective on the problem, given his early life in northwest
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, can the minister outline
for me the obstacles to the provision of warning labels on alcoholic beverages
and/or in alcohol establishments to advise people who are pregnant about the dangers
that could occur to unborn children?
Mr. Orchard: There are two approaches to the issue. We have provided, and I think the Manitoba
Liquor Control Commission has mandated the placement of signs in all of the
liquor stores and outlets. I think that
also applies to our vendors in our hotels as well, so that there is the sign
warning there.
The second initiative in terms of
labelling of individual liquor bottles is being undertaken, I believe on a
pilot project by two provinces in collaboration with the federal government, to
see whether that has any measurable impact on the incidence of alcohol
consumption by women when they are carrying a child.
Mr. Chomiak: I am happy to hear about both of those
initiatives. I wonder, has the ministry
thought about talking with the Liquor Control Commission about perhaps
labelling the bags or something like that in terms of warning labels?
* (2130)
Mr. Orchard: I think it is just the signs, but the bags are
a reasonable suggestion that I will forward on from my honourable friend to the
minister responsible to see whether they have given that consideration. That would be, I think on the surface, a
pretty easy‑to‑achieve initiative and within our control.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, the minister made
reference to the mammography screening program.
I am wondering if the minister can outline for me what the status of
that is at present.
Mr. Orchard: The committee is targeting around the 1st of
August for a report. My honourable
friend will remember the report that I tabled approximately 15 months ago, I
guess, where in the committee at that stage could not provide recommendations
to proceed at that time. We always
emphasized "at that time" with the mammography screening program.
Subsequent to that, the committee has
spent the ensuing months further analyzing studies from other parts of the
world as they have been available, including the national study, the Canadian
study. They expect to complete their
second investigation and provide a report to government circa August 1.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, the minister will
undoubtedly recall that the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) has
raised several times with the minister the question of the waiting lists for
elective mammography tests at
Now, I know that, if the member for
Brandon East were here, the minister could tell him about the past history with
respect to bed closures in
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, the waiting time can be up to
eight months for an asymptomatic screen, but the waiting time for any indicated
problem is significantly lower. I
believe it is less than one week.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister really define what he means
by "asymptomatic" That is
still a reference from a doctor, but it is a question: What does the minister define as‑‑how
is "asymptomatic" defined in this case?
(Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson,
in the Chair)
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, no physically
identified signs that there is a problem and no medical history which would
indicate higher risk.
"Asymptomatic" here is not a different phraseology than what
it means in other areas.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am of the impression
that the waiting list in
Mr. Orchard: Well, of course, in part, we hope we will be
guided by policy implementation following our August 1 report, because there is
clearly an opportunity to focus the existing resource. I may stand corrected,
but I believe the mammography units in
There has always been some question in
every study as to whether the candidacy for mammography has been appropriately
undertaken. Of course, that is what our committee
was, back a year and a half ago, very concerned in terms of developing a
program initiative that would serve women's health needs.
I tell my honourable friend very directly,
one of the problems with mammography is
I think that is clearly what most of the
investigative studies have shown without, I do not think, any variance from
this finding, that under the age of 50, screening programs and mammography have
not proven to be an effective investment in preventative health care services,
that there is a much wiser use of that resource. Of course, that is disputed by the American
Society of Radiologists who, I presume, would want to do more mammography, not
less, because of the nature of the system that they are engaged in.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, clearly, no one can
be very proud about some of the situations, and this crosses all political and
governmental lines about some of the situations concerning aboriginal people
and their health conditions and standards.
I am wondering, in terms of aboriginal women in particular, if there are
any initiatives in this area in the preventative and Health and Wellness area
that have been launched this year by the ministry.
Mr. Orchard: The ministry is assuring in our program
development and program investigation areas that women from the aboriginal
community are involved in terms of providing advice and identifying issues
within the working groups. That is not a
specific new initiative, but I think it is a specific benefit in that you are
creating a greater environment of awareness of the issues, and some potential
solutions often flow within existing programs from that simple involvement.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, there, at one time,
was a health‑care orientation training program at The Pas. Is that still in effect, and are there any
other initiatives of a similar kind?
Mr. Orchard: I cannot provide my honourable friend with
that answer, and I will have to take it as notice.
* (2140)
Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for that comment. I appreciate that he will provide that information.
I actually could conceive of spending the
rest of Estimates time frankly in this area, but there are many areas,
initiatives to be dealt with, and I am sure the member for Crescentwood (Ms.
Gray), as well, has several questions in this area under 2.(a).
I just have a question, if the minister
could refer to his book on page 37. I may as well ask this question. It has come up in my mind several times. I might as well get an answer at this point.
Under the Salaries line, there is a
Severance Pay/Vacation Pay. In this
case, it is $13,100 for this fiscal year.
I have been meaning to ask, since the staff years remain the same, why
would we have a severance expenditure, unless one assumes it is all vacation
pay, and then why would the notation severance be there anyway? It is an accounting curiosity I have had.
Mr. Orchard: I am informed that this is used for
individuals who retire, and within the contract, there are so many provisions
depending on length of service and severance that this fund is used to access.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chair, following up on that
question of the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), this appears on every line,
does that mean that there is‑‑I still do not understand why there
is an expenditure of so much amount under every line unless there are people
retiring throughout the department. Is
that the case in this particular section, the 13.1? What specifically does it refer to?
Mr. Orchard: It is also vacation pay as well. If there was accumulated vacation pay, that
would have to be paid out, but it is also utilized for severance, if there is
anyone who would qualify because of leaving the employment or, I do not know, I
guess even if they were subject to one of the layoffs that from time to time we
have. This has not been the case in this
area, but a year and a half or two years ago when we consolidated the
commission and the department, there were some 55 positions eliminated and a
number of layoffs, and the fund certainly would have been utilized at that point
in time. The normal utilization is in
terms of retirement and meeting the Civil Service‑MGEA agreement on
severance.
Ms. Gray: The minister has referred to, in his comments
this evening, a Healthy Child focus. He
referred to, and I quote: A structure of
involvement of several other departments.
I wonder if he could just elaborate for
the committee this evening basically what that structure is of involvement of
the other departments.
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, earlier this afternoon
I mentioned the Healthy Public Policy area that my deputy minister has chaired
with other human services ministries.
This initiative, in terms of Healthy Child policy, was further advanced
recently with a round table, wherein we had a number of individuals by
invitation at the round table to help the ministry create an agenda for
development of a Healthy Child policy initiative. From the round table a working group has been
structured and is the working group that is, under some considerable urging, to
develop the discussion paper as soon as possible this calendar year‑‑not
fiscal year, but this calendar year.
Ms. Gray: The minister, then, is indicating that this
round table that was recently held was specifically on Healthy Child focus or
what was‑‑(interjection) Yes, it was. That one of the outcomes of that round table
was that a working group was established.
If that is the case, can the minister tell us who is on this working
group?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, that is basically the process. We are now awaiting the agreement of one
individual that we hope will chair the working group for us.
Ms. Gray: Without then naming names of individuals, can
the minister tell us what representation will be on this working group?
Mr. Orchard: Education as a ministry, Family Services as a
ministry, Native Affairs and Justice and Environment, and then we are expecting
to have some professional association involvement at the working group level as
well.
Ms. Gray: It is this working group then that will be
asked to come up with the consultation paper.
Is it the Healthy Public Policy staff people then who will be assisting
this working group in developing that by the end of the calendar year?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is correct.
Ms. Gray: Has the minister or his department outlined
any type of terms of reference for this working group? I am assuming there would have been if in
fact this working group was a result of a two‑day round table. Were there terms of reference which were
outlined or some type of framework as to‑‑I mean, when one talks
about a Healthy Child focus, I suppose that particular subject is very
broad. Is there some type of a narrower
focus, or what exactly are going to be the terms of reference of this
particular working group? What is it
they are going to be looking at within this consultation paper and within this
process?
Mr. Orchard: Let me share with my honourable friend the
process leading up to the round table.
As I mentioned earlier, when I was discussing this topic with the member
for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), my interest has been considerably piqued over the
last two years that I have had opportunities to be present when Dr. Fraser
Mustard has made presentations. When I
have had the opportunity, over a more relaxed and informal discussion
environment, to get a sense of what some of the‑‑I do not know what
the correct phraseology is. To me it is
such an exciting area where we can make, I think, a commitment of existing
resource and pretty major strides if we focus our efforts.
* (2150)
I guess I cannot describe it in any other
way. I may describe it this because I am
naive in that I am not professionally exposed, as you can expect, to maybe some
of the thinking in this area. Some of
the presentations and the information that Dr. Mustard provides is quite
visionary in terms of identifying opportunities. The opportunity or the results of furthering
those opportunities can be so absolutely dramatic in terms of resolving some of
the social problems that we, from time to time, are challenged to deal with
this as society.
(Madam Chairperson in the Chair)
Basis that, we had Dr. Mustard come in to
make a presentation to start the round table, followed by a summation from my deputy
as to how we would envision this to work within the Manitoba government context
and the Ministry of Health as the lead department. The idea of the round table was to stimulate
thinking by those individuals that were present to really test an idea, to see
whether there was worth in pursuing it.
I will be very frank with my honourable
friend. I mean, we have got lots of
agendas on the go. We do not need any
more agendas to consume staff time. The
consensus of the round table is‑‑and I talked to some of the
participants after the fact, they said it was one of the more exciting days
they had put in and they think one of the potentially more beneficial areas of
focus.
So we have committed time and personnel to
expedite and facilitate the working group's movement of this process along.
They are focusing in from their perspectives, which as my honourable friend can
see is not solely health, but other ministerial and some other professional
associations, focusing in on a discussion paper which gives us hopefully some
doables, some deliverables, within the Manitoba context and deliverables that
are not unreachable because of resource or program organization or policy
development.
From the round table, the working group is
crafting, in collaboration with this division of the ministry, to come up with
a discussion paper for later on this calendar year.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, well, I am delighted the
minister finds something in his department that he finds very exciting. I am pleased to hear that, but perhaps he
could assist members on the other side of this House in becoming excited as
well, if he would just tell us what the terms of reference are of this
particular working group because I still have not quite gleaned that from his
comments to date.
Mr. Orchard: If my honourable friend is asking me, do we
have a nice tightly knit little terms of reference that we can present to her,
no. I mean, we invited a group of people
with experience and with program area knowledge, with service delivery responsibilities
to the round table to say, here is a new wave of thinking; here is an emerging
thinking that is now becoming more widely discussed in terms of understanding
early development of children, and it is in the area of coping skills.
It is not an area of perfect science, but
there is every indication that there are substantial opportunities here in the
When you are working with a concept that
is not tried and true, you cannot put down terms of reference to narrow the
group. So subsequently, I cannot give my
honourable friend terms of reference and a narrowed focus because we simply do
not have any. I will indicate to my
honourable friend, this may not be a good enough answer, but if my honourable
friend is disappointed with the product, I know she will let me know. I do not think she will be. From my understanding of the reaction of some
of the individuals that attended the round table, they are very excited about
this as a really innovative new way of thinking and approaching child
development program and policy across government, and initiatives. They see it as an opportunity in a very
rapidly changing government service provision environment as a real
opportunity, I think it is fair to say, to make much better use of very scarce
resources in today's environment and to have an opportunity for significantly
improved results and an efficacy of program delivery.
There is a fair bit of excitement, not
just mine but shared, I think it is fair to say, by the participants at the
round table. That excitement I am‑‑I
will be very blunt with my honourable friend, deliberately harnessing because I
want to see a discussion paper out sooner rather than later so that we can
focus Manitobans' attention on a very real issue and opportunity.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, let me rephrase the
question then about terms of reference another way. With all due respect to what the minister has
just told me, let me ask the question.
The minister has indicated that they are
approaching someone to chair this working group. What exactly is the minister's department or
staff or whomever is approaching this person, what exactly are you asking this
person to be chair of, because I would assume you would have to give them more
information than what you have told us?
Are there some written results from this round table? There must be some terms of reference. I do not know. There must be some information that this
potential chairperson has access to or is being given so they would have some
idea of what they might be getting themselves into.
Mr. Orchard: Should the individual that we wish to have chair
this working group decide to take on the task, it will be with the reallocation
of a busy time schedule. The individual
was at the round table and has been part of discussions over the last number of
months with Dr. Mustard and others.
Should the individual agree to the chairmanship, I think my honourable
friend will understand why we do not have to have a narrowed term of reference
to guide his activities and deliberations.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, will the working group then
be establishing their own terms of reference?
Can the minister tell us, in terms of children and mental health, is
that going to be part of this? Can the
minister give us a bit more information on the scope? I am really asking a question on the scope of
this particular Healthy Child focus. If
I am frustrating the minister, it is only because I am trying to get a sense of
what the parameters are of this and how broad it is.
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chairperson, the Mental Health Division
is part of the process.
Madam Chairperson, I am not trying to
avoid my honourable friend's question. I
do not have a hidden agenda that I am trying to keep closeted away from my
honourable friend, but this is a new approach to trying to develop thinking,
free thinking, new thinking around issues.
There is not a standard blueprint. You cannot go to your shelf and say,
here is policy development course of action No. 31. Use it here.
We are using the creative minds of people
who have been involved. We are bringing
in resource like Dr. Fraser Mustard to try and develop within the
* (2200)
Now, it is not a McCall's pattern that we
can pull off the shelf and cut it out and sew it together. I cannot give my honourable friend any more
because we are working towards the development of the discussion paper. By even sharing something that is down the
road, I have already now got into a whole bunch of questions and probably there
will be a press release out that the minister cannot answer the question. Well, I cannot answer the question because we
have not got there yet. I would have
been better not to even mention it tonight, but I happen to be excited about
it. I think it is a good area to be
into, but I cannot give my honourable friend a blueprint because we do not have
a McCall's pattern for this one.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, does the minister have
information, either a video tape or information from the round table, just for
the information of members of this House so that we have some sense of what
some of the exciting ideas were that went on during these two days?
Mr. Orchard: It was one day, and no.
Ms. Gray: In regard to Healthy Child focus, is this
specifically going to be pre‑school or will this group be looking at
services to children school age as well?
Mr. Orchard: Yes.
Ms. Gray: If this committee is going to be looking at
sort of a broad range of areas or services‑‑and I do not even want
to use the word "services" specifically, because it sounds like this
group will be looking at broader issues other than just service‑‑can
the minister tell us some of the decisions that have already been made within
the department in regard to services to children such as services in the area
of dental health? Is there perhaps a
reason why some of those decisions were made before this exciting working group
has had an opportunity to present their consultation paper?
Mr. Orchard: No.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, the minister is indicating
that, no, there is not a reason why in fact some of the decisions have been
made in regard to this year's budget in the Department of Health. So is he suggesting that there was no
rationale to the budget decisions in regard to services to children?
Mr. Orchard: No, Madam Chairperson.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, the minister then is saying
that is not the case. Perhaps he could
clarify then why specific budget decisions were made in this department in
regard to services to children, if in fact he was aware of this new creative
free‑flowing consultation process that is going to occur over the next
calendar year?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chairperson, as I have indicated to my
honourable friend and others who have asked, the process on children's dental
health, it was a budget decision, as my honourable friend indicated.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, this particular working
group, will they be asked to make recommendations to the ministry in regard to
service provision, say, over the next one to five years? Will that be part of what they are asked to
do?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, the best advice I can give my
honourable friend is to await the reading of the document. It will become, I think, abundantly clear as
to the direction that would emanate from that.
Ms. Gray: I am not sure if this is the area to ask this
particular question. Well, before I ask
this specific question on prenatal classes, can the minister tell us, I know
that preventative programming, the area of prevention was one of the principles
that was enunciated in his health reform document. I am wondering if the minister could indicate
for us what initiatives have been undertaken in the area of looking at primary
prevention as part of the health reform?
I can appreciate that much of the health
reform has been in the areas of looking at changing how hospitals deliver
service, looking at community‑based services, et cetera, and I recall
that initially in the health reform process there really was not sort of a
group of people who were mandated to look at the whole area of primary
prevention.
Perhaps the minister could update this
House as to how that particular principle of preventative services is going to
be implemented within the health reform.
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, an important component of the
ministry has been, since approximately 1930, focused on community health and
prevention. I think it is fair to say
that in the history of the ministry it was focused on the public health nursing
area and has moved as the ministry grew and was able to provide a wider range
of services into other areas as well.
All of those areas are important and
integral to health care reform, and we are not‑‑how would I put
this‑‑understandably, we are not into health care reform to change
for the sake of change. There have been
many effective programs that work within the ministry, and health care reform
will continue them, will reinforce them.
Over the process of change we will, in all likelihood, see new
initiatives that focus on the early prevention or early intervention or
educational model.
That is one of the hoped‑for
frameworks that will emerge, for instance, from the discussion paper we just
spent the last half‑hour discussing and talking about. So that, in terms of programming, the
existing program has been, I think, reasonably effective and better focusing
during the course of health care reform was certainly appropriate and will
carry on. As we see the opportunity to
move into new areas, we shall and are, as I have indicated in terms of the
discussion we just went through over the last half hour.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us which section or
which staff people or who within the Department of Health has the primary
responsibility for ensuring that there is a strategy that is developed and
implemented in regards to prevention programming?
Mr. Orchard: The responsibility in the overall context
rests with the assistant deputy minister.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us how that particular
objective of preventative services over the long term‑‑when I say
long term, three, five or 10 years‑‑is being reached within the
department? What strategy is being
employed to ensure that occurs?
I ask that question because I know that
the minister in the past has stood up in this House and certainly expressed
concern about governments across
* (2210)
Mr. Orchard: I think it is fair to say that each of the
major program areas that we have under specific focus this year in this area
have as their underpinning principle a development of a prevention education
wellness model, if you will, in terms of the beginning point for any kind of a
discussion and initiative.
As well, in the program areas that are
under review that we have discussed earlier on, we are attempting as much as
possible in each of those program areas to deal with the spectrum of service
that can be focused on the initiative.
Let me try to give a better example of that. For instance, let us deal with an orthopedic
area of surgery, and the focus is on the waiting list for, and let us use the
example, hip surgery, I think there has been a general tendency in the past to
concentrate our efforts in investigating the provision of the specific surgical
service, i.e., hip prosthesis.
The emphasis, now that we have reorganized
under Healthy Public Policy, is, yes, that is an important component and
consideration on how to manage that surgical program, but, in addition to that,
we bring into the focus and the discussion the range of issues including
prevention of the falls that cause the broken hips. That can be with some‑‑simplistic
is the wrong terminology, but from some common sense approach in terms of
personal care home resident management in terms of removing unsafe
circumstances that are inadvertently there, managing on the prevention side to
avoid the injury.
The Healthy Public Policy area has
injected into all of our discussion the continuum of service opportunity in a
given program, so that we are not narrowly focused on "the fix the problem
after it happens," as we have been, I think it is fair to say, in
ministries of health across Canada for the last 25 years; but, rather bringing
into focus, the range of options for investment of scarce resource, if that is
the right terminology and phraseology to use, including education and
prevention as one of the first and underpinning principles in program
development.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, this particular section,
Healthy Public Policy then, have they taken a number of specific areas‑‑and
the minister talked about orthopedics; if we use an example of ensuring that
babies born in Manitoba are healthy, and I am assuming that "healthy"
would have to be defined under certain criteria‑‑is this particular
area then looking at certain objectives?
I use the example of birth of healthy babies so that we improve the
health of babies born. Are they taking
each of those objectives and then deciding, how does the ministry accomplish
that, whether that be through service delivery of staff in the ministry or
whether it is through other areas, such as working with other professional
organizations, hospitals, et cetera? Is
that what is happening?
My further question would be, given that
there is such a huge area in terms of the health of Manitobans, has this
particular section or branch prioritized some of the areas that they are going
to be looking at, or was that already answered before when the minister talked
about Women's Health and Healthy Child?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, Madam Chairperson, the areas of focused
efforts, targeted efforts, if you will, within this ministry were outlined
before. We are injecting at almost every
discussion level the continuum of service delivery opportunities or service
provision opportunities with emphasis always on education prevention. I mean, we are putting, I think, action to
words. We have integrated the education prevention consideration into, if not
all, nearly all of our broader program investigation areas. There has been a linkage in our surgical
programs to the prevention, where appropriate, as I have mentioned in terms of
the orthopedic program.
My honourable friend has before her, or
the critic does, for instance, the provincial cancer control committee, and in
terms of the terms of reference, because this is one of the areas that this
section of the department has responsibility, it is the division responsible
for liaising with government and the provincial cancer control committee. One of the terms of reference is to identify
a model for cancer control within the framework of prevention, promotion,
treatment and palliation so that we are not focused simply on the curative aspect
of cancer as a disease entity.
I think that is indicative of the
direction that we are trying to put into focus in all areas of the ministry and
investigation of opportunity across the system.
This division has an opportunity to provide that role to institutional
investigations as well as new program initiatives such as the Healthy Child
Development policy area.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chair, I am using the minister's example
of cancer and cancer prevention. Can the
minister share with us perhaps any written information because, of course, to
answer this might be lengthy. But if we
use that example that he has used of cancer prevention, can he share with us
any information or policy information on what the department has come up with
in regard to the hows, how do we prevent cancer, then who actually should be
doing the education of that?
Obviously, that education is not limited
to the department. In fact, it is probably more outside agencies and
organizations. Any kind of evaluation that the department might be spearheading
over a long term to determine if, in fact, certain programs or services were
maintained or put in place if we actually were making a dent as far as
lessening the amount of cancer. Does the
minister have any of that kind of information that he might be able to, without
releasing confidential information from the department, share? I use the example of cancer prevention that
the minister has raised because, of course, it is a very important one.
Mr. Orchard: We do have some focus on the area of
prevention. What I will undertake to do is between now and the next time we
meet for Estimates which I think is Wednesday probably‑‑I think we
are debating bills tomorrow I think, and then we will be in Estimates on
Wednesday‑‑I will have staff put together some of the information that
we have at our disposal. If there are
duplicate documents in terms of‑‑and I will narrow it down to a
couple of areas to give my honourable friend a flavour of where we are coming
from.
We are doing some, I think, quite
interesting work in terms of heart health as well. In terms of lifestyle‑modified
reduction of disease incidence, I think clearly the heart health area is a very
opportune one. We have been
participating over the last two years or two and a half years with the federal
government and the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Manitoba.
I have had an opportunity to be at a
number of their events to focus on, you know, the current results that they
share with the community. We will
provide that information. The most
recent one was that very delightful picture of me chefing. Well, I thought it was delightful.
* (2220)
You were preventing
heart disease.
Mr. Orchard: That was preventing heart disease, and it was
very‑‑well, I will tell you what it was. It was the Heart Smart cafeteria launch,
because in the
It was exceptional in its success. That initiative, with its generation in
South Technical?
Mr. Orchard: South Winnipeg Technical, I have got the name
right. But anyway their chefs' course, I
think it is, is now focussing on Heart Smart cooking for cafeteria. It was a most successful national launch.
The important component that I think we
all should take a great deal of pride in is that it was a Manitoba‑generated
idea that is now adopted nationally.
I think we probably have one of the most
progressive Heart Health campaigns in collaboration with, as I say, Heart and
Stroke Foundation at the university as a collaborator, the ministry and the
federal government. It is a several
million dollar initiative which has already surveyed Manitobans and identified
high‑risk target groups.
The next stage, I believe, if my memory
serves me correct, was to develop some focused provision of information to high‑risk
groups, and to see whether there was an opportunity to mitigate disease
incidence by focusing prevention/educational resources.
To try and answer my honourable friend's
question in terms of the outcome analysis, that has always been one of the
difficulties, that has always been one of the challenges to be able to evaluate
the success or whether the given programs have met envisioned achievables after
a period of time.
Again, I think we have got probably one of
the better opportunities in
It might be appropriate to take five
minutes. We can leave the clock running,
I think, with the agreement of everybody.
Ms. Gray: I would just like to thank the minister for
being willing to provide that information.
I am hoping that the information is readily available and is not going
to take staff hours to have to compile.
Mr. Orchard: Your wish is my command. We will put together a very informative
package for my honourable friend.
The committee recessed at 10:25 p.m.
After Recess
The committee resumed at 10:30 p.m.
Madam Chairperson: 2.(a)(1) Salaries $967,500‑‑pass;
(2) Other Expenditures $178,300‑‑pass;
(b) Health and Wellness (1) Salaries‑‑
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, again, a number of the
issues in general we have talked about in the previous appropriation. Under
2.(b) specifically I note that this branch looks after proposals submitted for
review by the Clean Environment Commission and by Manitoba Environment. Can the minister give us a list of proposals
that have been submitted to the department from either of those agencies?
Mr. Orchard: I am not sure. Perhaps I could seek clarification of what my
honourable friend is wanting us to provide.
Mr. Chomiak: On the bottom of page 38 in the Supplementary
Estimates book, under Expected Results, it states, and I quote:
"Assessment of environmental health concerns identified in proposals
submitted for review by the Clean Environment Commission and by Manitoba
Environment."
I am wondering if we could have a listing
of which issues have been given to the department for review.
Mr. Orchard: Yes, Madam Chair, we do not have those here
tonight, but we can provide the list of issues on which Clean Environment
Commission or Environment have asked our assistance and provide it to my
honourable friend probably on Wednesday.
Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for those. Can the minister also‑‑will he be
able to provide us, although it is not extensive, only $85,000, a list of the
grants to external agencies that is provided by this branch?
Mr. Orchard: The Public Health Association, $2,200;
Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, the collaborative project on
cancer research, $145,000; the Sanitorium Board of Manitoba $131,700; Village
Clinic, to support the AIDS Information Line, $54,700; and the U of M, through
the Faculty of Pharmacy, the Medication Information Line for the Elderly,
support of $30,100.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I have two questions on
the Life Saving Drug Program. Firstly,
why is it that this branch of the department administrates it; and secondly,
what major changes have occurred in the program in the last year?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, the Life Saving Drug Program had
been funded from this area of the ministry as a part of‑‑this used
to be the Community Health area. Now,
under Healthy Public Policy, that program remained with this program; it
remained with this area.
I think my honourable friend has
identified its being sort of an oddity in this area, and we are in the process
of shifting the Life Saving Drug component of this division of the ministry
over to the Pharmacare program. I would
hope that we will be able to have that incorporated as a fait accompli in next
year's Estimates presentation.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, the second part of the
question is: Have there been any
significant changes in the Life Saving Drug Program this past year?
Mr. Orchard: Significant in, I believe it consumed a fair bit
more resource than last year. In terms
of the criteria to access the program, no, that is under review. As we are making the change, we are reviewing
that. There may be some change in terms
of the criteria. We have not made that
determination yet.
One thing I think maybe my honourable
friend‑‑this is an income‑sensitive program, and from time to
time, individuals, when reviewed, their circumstances have changed in that if
they perchance no longer meet the qualification criteria and have been removed
from this program and referred to the regular Pharmacare program, for instance.
That is not as a result of change in the
criteria by which the program is accessed by Manitobans, but rather a review of
individual circumstances which have changed.
In most cases, the family income available has gone up to put them
beyond the eligibility criteria. That
review has led to them being taken off the program and put on the Pharmacare
program which, of course, moves to only a percentage of program cost recovery
rather than complete program cost recovery as is available to those who
qualify.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I am wondering if the
minister can update us as to the current status of initiatives in two program
areas. The first is radon gas and its
possible effect on human health, and secondly the possibility of lead
contamination in water supplies.
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, to deal with the radon gas issue
first, the Minister of Environment's (Mr. Cummings) department is the lead
department in terms of the radon gas issue.
We are providing collaborative support and physician input through this
division in terms of guiding the Department of Environment in their activities. I would not want to risk giving the
inappropriate or incorrect information in terms of giving my honourable friend
an idea of where the status is on the radon initiative with Environment. There is also, I believe, an involvement in
terms of the Department of Labour on building codes that is attached to the
radon issue. So there is actually more
than just one department involved there.
In terms of the lead in the drinking water
issue, two of my staff in this division, two physicians, have been working with
the City of Winnipeg in providing medical advice in terms of risk assessment,
et cetera, lead in the drinking water, and we believe that it would be through
Cadham Lab that the testing would be done in terms to determine the lead
levels. The initiative there is one of
support to the City of
* (2240)
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, has the ministry undertaken
any initiatives with respect to alerting the public and/or documenting evidence
of the potential of possible side effects of vaccinations?
Mr. Orchard: We maintain the lead role in updating
information to physicians who do child immunization and naturally, and that is
as an external provider of service that we provide that information. Internally, our public health nursing and our
providers are provided with current information in the updates.
It is this division's responsibility to
provide, in the event that a new vaccine is out, to provide all providers,
physician, external to the department and our own staff, with complete
information on vaccines and what potential adverse reactions can happen so that
the providers can undertake that provision of information to the mothers so
that they watch‑‑or the parents‑‑so that they can watch
for any potential adverse reaction and in that fashion develop a fairly
sophisticated system of identifying and preventing any potential serious side
effects of adverse reaction from immunization.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I assume some form of a
registry is maintained and kept by the department for reference by caregivers
and/or the public?
Mr. Orchard: There is maintenance of adverse reaction in
the immunization records that each provider maintains for a child and a
reporting system to centralize that information.
Mr. Chomiak: If a parent or a guardian wished access to
that registry to obtain that information, would they have access to that
registry for their own child?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, I am pretty sure that information is
available to the parent on behalf of their own child.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister indicate whether there have
been any major outbreaks of communicable diseases or the like that are being
tracked by the ministry at this point in time, or is there anything out there
just from a public health policy standpoint?
Mr. Orchard: No, to date we have been quite fortunate in
terms of communicable disease outbreak.
We have the flu advisories that we periodically put out as public
service information. We have twice in
the last, I guess, six months had isolated cases of meningitis which we take
very quick response in terms of peer group or associate contact tracing and
provision of antibiotic for any individuals associated with the individual who
has meningitis. We very diligently try
to establish clearly whether there is a relationship between, if there is one
or two or three cases, to see whether there is any relationship so we can
establish whether there is a pattern of disease incidence that is communicable
rather than isolated.
As I say, in the last I think
approximately six months, we have had two separate time frames in which there
has been more than one or two cases of meningitis. Fortunately, in each case there was no
contact between the individuals. They
were isolated cases. It is an area, as I
understand it, I guess as we speak tonight all of us have the bacteria within
our respiratory systems that could‑‑no, it is not all of us, but a
high percentage of us carry those quite regularly, and a circumstance develops
where they turn virulent in some individuals.
I think it kind of baffles our
epidemiologists as to why these isolated occurrences do happen, but we take
them very, very seriously and, first of all, establish contact with all those
in association so they can take antibiotics as a precautionary measure and,
secondly, try to establish clearly whether there is or is not linkages between
the separate cases, because in that case it would trigger a likely
recommendation to immunize.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, I am pleased to hear from the
minister that the lifesaving drug program is finally being looked at and
perhaps the criteria will be changed and it will become a more efficient
program.
In regards to immunization, I am wondering
if the minister can tell us if there will be any education this year, as there
has been in past years, about‑‑and I do not know the correct term
for the disease‑‑but what is known as hamburger disease. Is there any type of education programs that
occur, given the barbecue season, should we ever get summer?
Mr. Orchard: It is our intention to make that again a
significant public awareness thrust.
I want to share with my honourable friend
the absolute panic that I suffered this weekend. You have to appreciate that at a convention
there are many activities that consume one's time and you forget about
sustenance and diet.
In this particular case on Saturday last,
I had been without sustenance since approximately nine o'clock on the plane to
I noticed halfway through my hamburger
that it was only cooked on one side, and I have to tell my honourable friend
that I instantly panicked about hamburger disease, because my vote was, I
thought, pretty important on Sunday, and I did not want to be in the hospital,
because they do not have a moving ballot box at these. I thought I would just share that with you.
Ms. Gray: Can the minister specifically tell us, though,
what type of educational programs or how is the public made aware about the
concerns related to this hamburger disease in the
* (2250)
Mr. Orchard: We work with the electronic media in terms of
providing information for public service announcements, so that becomes part
of, and they have done that for us, I guess, for the last couple, three years,
as part of the public service announcement.
We keep them very much informed, if ever
there is an incident of the hamburger disease striking a Manitoban, so that
they very much make that part of news and with the accompanying warning as
professionally provided by the ministry.
We have a fact sheet that we make available to health care professionals,
public health nurses, physicians, again, basically renewing the awareness of
the potential. As my honourable friend
correctly observes, we are approaching hamburger season again, barbecue season
again, and you do not want to eat pink hamburger.
Ms. Gray: I notice in this section the activities that
deal with immunization services to Manitobans, and I am wondering if the
minister's department has looked at the provision of immunization services or
done any analysis of the fact that staff within the ministry provide
immunization as do, of course, private physicians in clinics. I am wondering if there has been any analysis
done?
Is it in the best interests of efficiency
in a system and efficacy of a service to continue to have a number of service
providers actually provide immunization services?
Mr. Orchard: Madam Chair, we maintain both public health
nurse service provision and physician. I
think my honourable friend's observation is whether a replacement of‑‑and
I am going to presume, suggest a course of action that we attempt to have a
public health nurse provide that service because they are part of the staffing
costs already, and it could be more effective in terms of delivery cost of the
program. (interjection)
Yes, well that is the point. My honourable friend makes the point that it
may well be every bit as effective and have as high a quality of service and be
less expensive, and I think that is right.
One of the difficulties is, we are not necessarily able to cover the
whole province with a public‑health‑nurse delivered program, so we
have maintained the opportunity of having both service provision.
However, my honourable friend has piqued
my curiosity, and it will be one of the areas that we take a look at again.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, yes, I am intrigued by the
minister's‑‑I believe that certainly, from a lay standpoint, there
is merit in perhaps reviewing the cost efficiency and the effectiveness of
delivering it. Actually, it certainly,
on the surface, seems to make a lot of sense.
It seems to be an area that perhaps should be looked at from cost‑effectiveness. So I, too, would encourage the minister to
consider that option.
Mr. Orchard: There may well be an opportunity, and it is my
understanding that we are looking at that currently and seeing whether there is
an opportunity for an equally effective service which may have the opportunity
to contain costs.
Ms. Gray: The minister mentioned looking at efficiency
of services, and that prompted me with the question. I am not sure if this is the correct section,
but probably the staff would know the answer to that or I am sure the minister
does as well.
Can the minister tell us, where is the
committee at that has met for two, three, four, five years, or whatever, the
city of
I know there has been a committee that has
been meeting for Heaven knows how long, but has there been any progress made in
that area?
Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend has correctly identified,
it is probably one of the most worn‑out studied areas between the city of
Clearly, there may well be opportunity as
we achieve more of the current agenda to try and expedite it. There are some difficulties though because
there are differing employment opportunities and benefits. We are not parallel between the city and the
province. That has from time to time
caused some difficulties in terms of service consolidation, but clearly it does
represent a potential opportunity for discussion.
Ms. Gray: Madam Chairperson, I can appreciate the
minister's comments about there is such a variety of issues and a lot of them
have high priority within a huge ministry such as Health that it is probably
impossible in any given year to deal with all of the issues. I do not have a problem with that.
(Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairperson,
in the Chair)
Perhaps the minister can tell me then, is
this committee still meeting, and if in fact there is not perhaps either
political will or the energies available for whatever reason to actually make
some recommendations, does it make sense, or is this committee still meeting,
and if they are, perhaps they should not?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am advised that
there seems to be an ongoing pattern of studying the issue. Staff are not currently meeting on it, but I
am advised that there may well be some discussion in two areas: inspection and possible integration of the
combined program delivery in conjunction with health reform.
The
Acting Chairperson (Mr. Helwer): We are
on 2.(b) Health and Wellness (1) Salaries $1,639,100‑‑pass; (2)
Other Expenditures $7,298,100‑‑pass; (3) External Agencies $363,700‑‑pass. Subtotal (b) $9,300,900.
2.(c) Women's Health (1) Salaries
$386,300.
* (2300)
Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, under the Expected
Results in this section, I notice under activities, that it specifically refers
to the Facts of Life toll‑free telephone information/referral line, and
refers to the number of calls. Fine, but then it goes on to talk about the
educational presentations by staff of Manitoba Health in regard to promotional
activities.
Can the minister tell us what would be the
number of presentations by staff in the area of promotional activities, and
what would be the number of people reached by that activity?
Mr. Orchard: You know, we are going to have difficulty
putting together numbers for my honourable friend on that, because quite often
it is our public health nurses that are involved in doing this, and I do not
think we have got a central opportunity to have that come together as to how
many presentations they make and who is at the presentation. I do not think we have got a central
compilation of that activity level that we can provide.
Ms. Gray: I asked the question because I actually
thought that information was available.
Perhaps I am wrong. In the
detailed statistical sheets that public health staff provide, does it not break
up their activities in terms of however promotional activities are defined in
terms of education? That is why I asked
the question. I thought maybe it was
available.
Mr. Orchard: I think the best we can do is provide a level
of activity of our three major funded agencies in this area. Planned Parenthood
is expected to have 250 educational sessions this fiscal year, and they are
projecting to reach approximately 6,500 who would attend. If you asked me what the definition of a
consult is, I cannot get that, but they are projecting to do about 70 consults
this year, 55 promotional activities, and of course, as indicated in the
material you have in front of you, they are expecting a Facts of Life Line call
activity to approach 8,500.
I may just as well give you the grant to
Planned Parenthood; $331,000 is the Planned Parenthood level of funding. That is up very significantly. That includes an increase in budget for AIDS
education that we transferred over.
Serena Manitoba, a $10,400 grant, and we
eliminated the Committee on Planned Pregnancy funding this year. My honourable friend would be aware of
that. It is part of the budgetary
decisions.
Now, I will deal with Serena
Manitoba. They are providing educational
sessions, they believe, to approximately 800 participants, in part supported by
our $10,400 grant. That is down by $200
over last year. All of our agencies
took, in general, a minus‑two in terms of their year‑over‑year
funding. Serena Manitoba is planning on doing about 85 professional
consultations.
I also have in here, although Youville
Clinic is not provided for budgetarily in here, but Youville Clinic is
projecting to undertake about 3,400 individuals of prenatal education, 1,000
parent education. Natural family
planning and fertility awareness, they are expecting to reach 150 individuals
with that service provision, which is part of the Youville Clinic's service
provision, not specifically funded here but in part whose activity level is
appropriate to be discussed here.
Within this division of the ministry, we
are expected to reach some 16,000 Manitobans by departmental staff for
educational presentation and consultation on reproductive health issues.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the reason I asked that
question of the minister, I was just wanting to get a sense if the department
was moving away from actual delivery of promotional health services and moving
towards allowing external agencies to provide more of that service. I guess I would ask the minister that and
also ask the minister, has the department changed its criteria in terms of
provision of prenatal classes, i.e., are we still doing the same thing we have
done for the last five years, or are we refocusing our client group and perhaps
allowing again nonprofit or external agencies to deliver some of those
services?
* (2310)
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, we are maintaining a
direct service provision in the ministry, but are working toward, I think it is
fair to say, more outside agency funding and service provision.
I want to give to my honourable friend a
copy of the Centre for Health Policy Evaluation's, I think it is probably their
most recent report. It is on low‑birthweight
babies. They did a study over the past
number of years, and I think in general terms we did remarkably well in the
This was a study that dealt with the low‑birthweight
issue in terms of geographic as well as socioeconomic, and as one would expect
there is some tendency to have a greater incidence of low‑birthweight
babies in young single mothers who are of a lower socioeconomic status
primarily in the core area of
Although not as much as one might
expect. I mean, it was quite an
interesting report, but it appears as if we might have an opportunity to do a
more targeted initiative in terms of prenatal education, because one of the
findings was that, for instance, women in rural Manitoba are probably at the‑‑I
do not know if the phraseology is right, so if I offend some professionals that
may happen to read this‑‑they are in existing program support at
what is considered to be the medical threshold of best achievement in terms of
low birthweight.
The incidence of low‑birthweight
babies is as low as they think is achievable without the very incredible
investment. It probably has a lot to do
with diet‑‑they do not really have an attachment.
That goes across all income spectrums
which is quite interesting, but basically, the opportunity is there to
potentially target our efforts on higher‑risk groups that are identified
socioeconomically and geographically.
What we are actually trying to identify is whether there is an effective
way of identifying those groups. I
appreciate that is not necessarily easily done.
After the fact it is, but you may find if you do not get to those
individuals, young women during the early stages of the pregnancy‑‑you
know they are statistics after the fact because they have given birth‑‑but
it is the identification process in advance when you want to provide them with
the nutritional education and some of the prenatal‑‑and where we
are attempting to see whether there is an effective way to target our resource,
because I think my honourable friend would see a pretty good opportunity in
terms of a focused investment in education, focused on nutrition and support of
young mothers in a higher‑risk group.
That is another area that we are trying to
target into as we develop more sophistication around understanding how
effective some of the programming is.
That is why, you know, a low‑birthweight baby study by the centre
has given us a fair degree of comfort that in general our programs are working
quite well, because we have certainly got reasonable medical results in terms
of low birthweight. I will provide both
my honourable friends with a copy of that report.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I thank the minister
for being able to provide that report, and I am pleased to hear that the
department is moving towards looking at external agencies in regard to
provision of services for a number of reasons.
I think oftentimes they can do it more efficiently than government can.
I think with our staff within the department, who I believe are excellent
staff, but I think there are so many priorities that the staff have that
oftentimes they are not able to focus some of their energies on some of the
prevention areas.
I am also pleased to hear that the
department will be looking at the issue of low‑birthweight babies and how
does one deliver programs or services or ensure that, in fact, they are
delivered. The minister is certainly
correct when he talks about the need for the educational system and Child and Family
Services to be involved, and probably the most difficult part of the entire
process is to really get other agencies together and other departments to
really look at how can you focus on providing this service, particularly since
Child and Family, obviously, has their own priorities, as does Education. But I am pleased to see that that is being
looked at.
Just another question in this particular
area, I am wondering if the minister can tell us, has the Women's Health
Directorate‑‑if I can use that term "directorate", I am
not sure if that is what it is referred to.
Has the Women's Health Directorate provided any information,
consultation paper, analysis, recommendations to the minister in regard to
provision of services to women in the area of abortion?
Mr. Orchard: I think in terms of providing counselling
around the issue‑‑
Ms. Gray: Consultation.
Mr. Orchard: Pardon me?
Ms. Gray: Consultation to use the method.
Mr. Orchard: I am informed we provide a package of material
on all of the options that might be considered, including therapeutic abortion,
and that package is provided to physicians as well as some of our funded
agencies who provide some of the services that I have outlined.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, given that one of the
objectives of the Women's Health Directorate is to influence Healthy Public
Policy which reflects women's health needs, can the minister tell us, does the
Women's Health Directorate have a policy or a position on the provision of
therapeutic abortion services in community clinics?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that position is the
one that was challenged in the legislation, as written did not allow the
government, the ministry to provide the service in other than hospitals. We currently have that legislative amendment
before the House for consideration in passing this session.
It was an issue that I have indicated is
not narrowed to therapeutic abortions but to service provision within the
system. Although the debate quickly
focuses around the procedure of therapeutic abortion, it is a more general
policy, therapeutic abortion being one component of it.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, perhaps the minister
could just quickly provide a synopsis for us of that legislation in terms of
what he sees that legislation accomplishing in regard to the provision of
services in private clinics, whether they be abortion or, as the minister
indicates, other services.
* (2320)
Mr. Orchard: It would allow the reinstatement of that
regulatory‑making authority. It
would allow the ministry to determine in what location or facility we would
provide and pay for insured services.
That can include a range of issues that I have outlined in terms of my
remarks opening the debate or presenting the debate on second reading on the
legislation for amendment.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, given that the
minister has opened debate on the legislation and given that chances are, since
this government has the majority, that particular legislation may pass in this
Chamber, does the minister have any information from the Women's Health
Directorate in regard to the impact of the passage of that legislation
regarding services affecting women, whatever that range of services may be?
If this legislation passes and then there is
authority given to the minister to do certain things in regard to these
clinics, has there been any recommendations as to the direction that the
minister should take in regard to the provision of services in private clinics
specifically related to women?
Mr. Orchard: If my honourable friend is asking specifically
about Morgentaler's clinic, no. Other
services, my honourable friend would have to be maybe more elucidating.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the minister then is
indicating, if he uses the example of Morgentaler's clinic or any other private
clinics, I suppose, that may want to locate in
Mr. Orchard: No, there have been no recommendations made.
Ms. Gray: Will this particular directorate be making any
recommendations to the minister in regard to provision of health services to
women, such as abortion services?
Mr. Orchard: This section monitors the provision of
services to women to assure that they are available and that there is no
difficulty in accessing those services, and that the initiative, as existed
under the regulation July of 1988, as found in the court decision, did not in
any way deny service to therapeutic abortion for those women in Manitoba who so
choose. There was deemed to be
sufficient access in the system.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am not going to go
over many of the questions that have already been quite adequately dealt with by
the member for Crescentwood. I just want
to ask the minister the status of the early postpartum discharge program and
whether or not it has in fact been expanded or has receded in importance, and
what the future is with respect to that program.
Mr. Orchard: The early postpartum proved successful, I
think, as everyone has acknowledged, and I think it is fair to say, we will see
a shorter stay of all mothers in hospital become more the norm across the
system, initially, first, in the city of Winnipeg at all facilities that offer
obstetrics in Winnipeg. We fully expect
that to be part of the recommended direction in Dr. Manning's obstetrical
review, and we have the ability, under the current staffing configuration, to
support that shorter‑length hospital stay in the city of
Mr. Chomiak: I can assume that staff will be shifted from
other areas of activity within the community health sphere to participate in
this program?
Mr. Orchard: That is correct.
Mr. Chomiak: That of course begs the question, from where
will they be transferred from to assume these particular activities?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, there will not be a
transfer per se. There will be a
reprioritization of activity level. This
is deemed to be an effective initiative that is worthy of a reprioritization of
staff resource to assure its facilitation.
Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if the minister can enlighten me as
to what the less significant or less prioritized activity that will be shifted
away from, just to get a sense as to where the community health is moving with
respect that we know they are moving towards more early postpartum discharge
provision. What will they be leaving
behind in light of the fact we know they will be on the reduced workweek, et
cetera?
Mr. Orchard: There are two developments in the initiative.
Firstly, within the hospitals they are doing the assessment with in‑hospital
staff, so that has removed some of the work commitment.
Apparently, with experience in the
program, we are able to provide, with the existing staff, the opportunity to
help more mothers and their newborns by targeting according to need‑‑it
is not an automatic as we did in the past‑‑a service provision.
It is assessed according to need, and that
has seen a reduction in standard visitation and a focused visitation, a
targeted visitation now according to need.
We are able to undertake that shorter length of stay initiative for more
mothers and newborns with the existing staff by making targeted, more effective
and focused use of that staff resource.
* (2330)
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, two questions in this
regard. I would assume therefore, and
this is the first question, that the nurses in the institution will be making
the assessment; and secondly, what is the criteria of need? Presumably, the
need is based on medical requirement or something along those lines. Could the minister define what determines
need with respect to the provision of service?
Mr. Orchard: I am informed it is a combination of medical
as well as social assessment of need.
Mr. Chomiak: Could the minister perhaps table the outline
or the criteria for the program, if that is at all possible, when the next time
we meet?
Mr. Orchard: Affirmative, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
Ms. Gray: Just to clarify that line of questioning from
the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), is the minister then saying that the criteria,
the medical/social criteria that is now in place to determine the visitation
for the early discharge, that that is a recent change, that now there is a
change in terms of who would provide service to, and does the minister have any
statistics on how many mothers were visited, let us say, the last fiscal year,
and how many will be visited this year?
Mr. Orchard: We can provide my honourable friend with the
statistics that she is asking for. As I
attempted to explain earlier, the opportunity to provide a greater level of
service based on assessed need is allowing us to, in essence, better focus or
target the program and we were able to accomplish a service provision to a
wider or to a greater number of mothers with the experience of existing staff.
Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, just one last
question. The provision of those
services by the existing number of staff in terms of the ability to provide a
quality service is that something that is shared by not only senior staff of
the department, but in fact the actual service deliverers of the region? Does everyone agree on the ability for staff
to be able to deliver that same quality of service?
Mr. Orchard: I am informed that that is the case and that
there is fairly aggressive monitoring to assure that that is the case.
Mr. Chomiak: Again, given developments in this area, this
is an area that we could probably spend the balance of the entire 75 remaining
hours in Estimates allocated to discussing, but I am going to resist that
temptation because there are so many pressing other items we have to discuss.
I want to start by asking the minister
what the grant is to Swampy Cree Tribal Council and the Churchill Health Centre
this year, to both of those programs this year and last year?
Mr. Orchard: Last year's grant to Churchill Health Centre
was $63,500, and this year it will be reduced to $31,600. To Swampy Cree Tribal Council it was $70,700
last year, and it will be reduced to $33,700 this year.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, is that decrease due
to dental needs requirements, or is that due to budgetary restraints?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, this is part of the
decision that we have discussed on a number of occasions in Question Period in
terms of discontinuing the funding of the treatment portion of the Children's
Dental Health Program.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the minister has
indicated that there is not any specific evaluative or scientific evidence that
would demonstrate why the department made the decision to cut this particular
program other than budgetary decisions.
The minister has had an opportunity to review the letter provided by a
Mr. Cooney which gives an illustration of the negative effect that this program
could have on the delivery of dental services to children. Has the minister had a chance in the
department to make an evaluation of that?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, no, I have not
reviewed that correspondence yet. I
think we received it in the office last week, and I have not had a chance to
review it yet having been away for three days or so.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, it is assumed that the
public water fluoridation program will continue. The minister has stated that publicly, and we
will assume it will continue its entirety.
Will the provision of that particular program change now that the staff
years have been reduced by 80 or 90 percent?
Mr.
Orchard: It is expected that we will be
able to maintain the program through a similar provision of service that we
have undertaken in the past, including a contracting with the service provision
with a number of the communities.
* (1340)
Mr. Chomiak: I am sorry.
The minister said, through the provision‑‑again, I
apologize. I missed the minister's last
sentence in his response.
Mr. Orchard: Well, we do not directly provide the
service. We contract and provide
supporting grants for service provision to communities, and that portion of it
will be maintained.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, can the minister
outline what the grants were with respect to the fluoridation program last
fiscal year and what they are anticipated to be this fiscal year?
Mr. Orchard: Last year, I believe they were $11,900, and
this year, we anticipate $11,700.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, how does the minister
expect to continue the educational portion of the program that dealt with up to
63,000 children with the dramatically diminished staff component in the
ministry?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that will be part of
the discussions that will ensue with the school divisions. Notification will go
out officially on the treatment program curtailment in the near future, and
then discussions ensue in terms of collaboration around the fluoridation in the
school and the prevention program.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that seems to me,
therefore, that the department does not have a clear plan as to what is going
to happen to that program. That seems to
me to be an obvious conclusion from this.
Does the minister have a specific plan that he intends to implement with
respect to the provision of these services?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I think my honourable
friend can appreciate that there, no doubt, will be varying opportunities,
school division by school division, and that is what we intend to pursue.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, can the minister
indicate what provision is going to be made for the assets of the program,
specifically the equipment that is located throughout the province to deal on
the program?
Mr. Orchard: Well, I think maybe my honourable friend did
not receive the copy of the letter from the one superintendent that attended
the Minnedosa meeting. Basically we are,
at the present time, exercising a certain degree of flexibility around the
equipment because, if there was a way to facilitate the continuation of the
program within the schools in collaboration with the school division, the
current service providers and dentists that would supervise or undertake the
service provision‑‑and, of course, with the precondition that it be
a service that would be paid for by the parents whose children access it. That was basically, I guess, as succinctly as
I can put it, the intent of the letter from the school superintendent asking us
if we would be interested in pursuing such a program and asked the status of
equipment disposal.
If a circumstance like that were to
present and be a workable option, I have indicated that we will co‑operate
to whatever degree we can in facilitating that initiative and, secondly, that
we would be most open to maintaining or vesting ownership of our existing
school‑based equipment to the school divisions for a very nominal cost,
so that if they could work a parent‑supported program on treatment that
certainly we would not expect to recoup our investment out of the equipment, we
would simply invest it to such a program.
Mr. Chomiak: Did the minister have any discussions with the
Manitoba Dental Association, the
Mr. Orchard: That is one of the, as my honourable friend may
at some time begin to appreciate, constraining procedures within budgetary
preparation wherein you do not have the luxury of going out and consulting with
provider groups, et cetera, in terms of budgetary decisions that may be
included in a budget. We have had
discussions‑‑
Ms. Gray: Why not?
Mr. Orchard: Why not?
My honourable friend for Crescentwood asks why not? I would suspect that‑‑
Ms. Gray: Be different.
Mr. Orchard: Yes, that would be different, and you know‑‑let
me give you an example. What would have
been the response if we would have asked those groups, how would you react to
curtailment of the treatment funding of the treatment program in the Children's
Dental Health Program? The response
would have been exactly as it is today.
Ms. Gray: That is the wrong question.
Mr. Orchard: Oh, there is a different question? My honourable friend, in interjecting from
her seat, is saying that is the wrong question.
Well, I do not believe there is any other question you could ask, because
if my honourable friend is saying, well, you know, you should have invited
options, my honourable friend is correct.
Except my honourable friend then does not‑‑well, then those
options are the ones that we ask for from our senior management within the
various departments. One presumes that
those options had been investigated and presented, and on balance you choose
from a range of them.
If my honourable friend says that process
is flawed, that we do not necessarily get the best options, that may well
be. I do not argue with that. But under the current budgetary‑striking
system you do not go out and ask a person, you know, how about I reduce your
program area?
It was interesting. My honourable friend might not have been
there. I think it was two sessions ago;
it might even have been last session, I forget which, we introduced Bill 69,
which was legislative provision to take away the compulsory aspect of fees
contribution to the Manitoba Medical Association. At a meeting prior to introduction of that
legislation in the House, with the MMA, I indicated that this legislation was
coming down.
Well, they did not receive the initiative
favourably. The issue that was presented
during committee stage was that it was done without consultation.
So I asked the then‑president of the
MMA, had we consulted about the substance of Bill 69, would you have agreed?
Absolutely not, was the answer. Well, in
consultation, what would it have achieved you?
I know the answer to some of the consultations before I ask the
question.
Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Chairperson, earlier on during the
questions and the debate, once the decision had been announced, the minister
referred to the
The point I am making‑‑now I
suspect that by invoking the spectre of the fellow
Mr. Orchard: Yes, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister indicate why that option was rejected?
* (2350)
Mr. Orchard: Yes, Mr. Acting Chairperson.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister outline for us the reasons
behind the decision to reject the option to go to a mid‑range kind of
delivery program?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, how would we describe
it? An income‑sensitized focus‑targeted program was proposed, and
the projected cost was $4.3 million.
Given that the financial circumstances
were such that we were not looking for ways to spend more resource, dedicate
more resource to this program, we were considering options of reduction of
resource commitment. That province‑wide
targeted program was not accepted. We
considered, and I will be very blunt with my honourable friend, a per‑child
charge that we would collect to recoup a significant portion of the treatment
cost so that we could maintain the program as self‑sustaining.
That becomes very complex in terms of the
collection of the charge, the establishing of the size of the charge. In some ways, you would probably have a lesser
uptake of the program, because one of the criticisms that has been fairly
consistent of the program is that more and more children that were enrolled in
the program had third‑party insurance.
Naturally, if they have third‑party insurance and you instituted a
fee, those who have third‑party insurance would exit from the program and
access coverage according to their employer or self‑financed third‑party
insurance.
So there was a whole series of discussions
around the issue. I have indicated in meetings with the MDA, the dental
auxiliaries, the dental nurses, that we did not take any particular glee in
making this decision. It was the
toughest one. It was one of the last ones
we made in terms of the final striking of the Health budget.
The difficulty was that, over a period of
time, we did not have any options presented that were anything but either more
expensive or elimination of the treatment program. There was no development of a reasonable in‑between
option for any number of reasons, and I cannot express why, that might have
offered us a more flexible approach to it.
The observation was made by some of the
individuals I have talked to that, had they been consulted in terms of how to
make the program more efficient, they would have provided information. That is kind of interesting, but I think that
speaks legions of how the program was maybe directed. If there were ways in which to save money in
a program, why were those not advanced just in the plain interests of saving
taxpayer money, let alone of making sure the program remains?
I have to tell my honourable friend that
it frustrates me significantly to have these suggestions come forward, after
you have essentially put everybody's feet to the fire by removing the treatment
portion of the program. Surely, surely,
people understand that governments are running deficits, that governments do
not have the luxury to maintain programs that were created in what we
considered to be affluent times of the '70s and '80s, and in today's context,
we have to make difficult choices.
I will be very blunt with my honourable
friend. The problem, with the way we
developed the budget, is sometimes the managers of programs present government
with almost two extreme options, with the full confidence that government will
never take the extreme option of eliminating the treatment part of the program
because I want to tell my honourable friend, that for the six budgets that we
developed it, that was always an option for budgetary reduction, of elimination
of the treatment program. I cannot speak
with accuracy, but I believe it was probably presented for six budgets prior to
us coming into government.
The options that have been discussed
lately of an in‑between program, I do not know why they were not
presented. I do not know why they were
not pursued. I do not know why they were
not sought after, but the two options we had were spending $1.3 million more or
eliminating the program. Given the
financial circumstance of the day, we chose to eliminate the program because
some of the in‑between options that I asked for some advice on just
proved to be too unworkable, as I described earlier on.
Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for that response. I recognize the dilemma and the difficulties
being faced during the budgetary process, particularly the options presented by
program management. In fact, I think the
minister's summation is fairly accurate from my limited experience with
government. It is interesting that a
targeted program would cost $1.3 million more and that strikes me as an area
that would require some further examination.
The interesting question that is brought
to bear now is insofar as the government clearly recognizes the importance of
the program, and the government clearly recognizes its significance, given that
we have these trained professionals in the community, given the fact that we
are dealing with an all‑or‑nothing alternative we are now outside
of the budgetary context.
The decision has already been made. At the end of the month the program
officially ends. It seems to me we then
have an opportunity that being the case for before too late, I mean before too
far down the road, before the egg is completely unscrambled or completely
scrambled, however one puts it‑‑whatever the correct phrase is, I
think people know what I am referring to‑‑(interjection) At two
minutes to midnight. The fact is that
the government now has an opportunity to take a valuable program that is
recognized by all. It has an opportunity
to look at putting the program back in place.
It has the luxury of some time and less budgetary constraints on it in
terms of conflicting demands.
The minister now has opportunity, he has
more information, he has a lot more knowledge about the program, he has the
capacity to reinstate the program before it is too late and too far down the
road with at minimum some kind of a middle ground. I mean he does have that opportunity at this
point rather than the all‑or‑nothing situation that we are faced
with at present. It seems to me the minister
has an opportunity. He has outlined the
difficulties concerning the program, concerning the budgetary constraints on
him. I recognize those. He outlines the options that he was faced
with.
I think he has illuminated the decision
this evening but now the minister is presented with an opportunity, an
opportunity, I think, to look at a more modest program by way of example based
on information that he now has and based on an opportunity considering that I
have heard him and others state that they recognize it was a good and effective
program.
* (0000)
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is precisely why,
in terms of the discussions I have had to date, I have said we will consider
options that can maintain the integrity of the program, with parents making the
contribution. We are not fixed in our
decision that the program just simply has to go regardless of whether options
for maintenance come up.
The one thing I have been clear on‑‑and
my honourable friend knows this from the meeting in Minnedosa. That was not a supportive meeting. There were staff and family members and some
teachers, et cetera, that were at that meeting.
They were very definitive in their belief that government should recant
on the decision. My honourable friend
knows that on several occasions that evening I said, I have the ability to
investigate options, but the one option I do not have is the ability to reverse
a Treasury decision which removed some $3 million of treatment funding. I do not have any of that budget to
reinstate.
However, if there is an option that is
developed in collaboration with the school division, with the current care
providers, government will certainly be at the table assisting them in such
areas as facilitating it through our experience internally, certainly through
consideration of equipment provision that is currently in the school
system. I have one overriding
constraint, and that is the budgetary decision, which I do not have the
flexibility to change.
Now, you know, it is a late hour, but the
next time we resume debate of the Estimates, it might be an opportune time,
because my budget is $1.8‑some billion.
Maybe my honourable friend might want to take some political risk and
suggest a program line, because I know he has gone through the budget with a
fine‑tooth comb and suggest that we could reallocate, in part or in
whole, resources from another area of the ministry. That would be an interesting discussion that
maybe my honourable friend might want to consider. I have been through that and come to the
conclusion I did. Maybe my honourable
friend, with a perspective that is different certainly than I have, might be
able to provide some advice the next time we resume discussion and debate around
the Estimates.
The Acting Chairperson
(Mr. Helwer): The hour being 12 midnight, as previously
agreed, committee rise.
Call in the Speaker.
IN SESSION
The Acting Speaker (Mr.
Edward Helwer): The hour being after 10 p.m., this House is
adjourned and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Tuesday).