LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Thursday, April 23, 1992
The House met at 1:30
p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE
PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING
PETITIONS
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): I beg to present the petition of Rick Keep,
Cam Wortman, Craig Scott and others requesting the Minister of Family Services
(Mr. Gilleshammer) consider a one‑year moratorium on the closure of the
Human Resources Opportunity Centre in Selkirk.
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable
member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar), and it complies with the privileges and
practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the
petition read?
The petition of the undersigned citizens
of the
WHEREAS the Human Resources Opportunity
Office has operated in Selkirk for over 21 years providing training for the
unemployed and people re‑entering the labour force; and
WHEREAS during the past 10 years alone
over 1,000 trainees have gone through the program gaining valuable skills and
training; and
WHEREAS upwards of 80 percent of the
training centre's recent graduates have found employment; and
WHEREAS without consultation the program
was cut in the 1992 provincial budget forcing the centre to close; and
WHEREAS there is a growing need for this
program in Selkirk and the program has the support of the town of
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislature of the
* * *
I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), and it complies with the
privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition
read?
The petition of the undersigned citizens
of the
WHEREAS the Dutch elm disease control
program is of primary importance to the protection of the city's many elm
trees; and
WHEREAS the Minister of Natural Resources himself
stated that, "It is vital that we continue our active fight against Dutch
elm disease in
WHEREAS, despite that verbal commitment,
the government of
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the government of
As in duty bound your petitioners will
ever pray.
Introduction
of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Je tiens a vous signaler la presence dans la
galerie publique de vingt‑neuf etudiants de la neuvieme annee de l'Ecole
Viscount‑Alexander, sous la direction d'Amelie Gauthier. Cette
institution est situee dans la circonscription de l'honourable minstre de
l'Education (Mme Vodrey).
Also this afternoon we have seated in the
public gallery, from the
On behalf of all honourable members, I
welcome you here this afternoon.
ORAL
QUESTION PERIOD
Premier's
Discussion
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, Winnipeg has always been envied
by Canadian cities and North American cities for being one of only two cities
in this country that has untreated water for our water supply, with the wisdom
of our forefathers and foremothers in the establishment of the aqueduct at
Shoal Lake and the water supply to Winnipeg.
Last week the Premier of Manitoba (Mr.
Filmon) met again with the Premier of Ontario.
He met at a time when there are lobbying attempts going on with one of
the companies, one of the 12 mining companies that have claims in the area of
the Shoal Lake watershed, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to ask the Premier: Can he advise us of whether he discussed the
issue of the
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Yes, Mr. Speaker, indeed I did raise the issue
with the Premier, and I re‑emphasized our desire to have the fullest
possible environmental assessment and review done of any proposal that would be
within the watershed of Shoal Lake, the source of the city of Winnipeg's water
supply.
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(1335)
Shoal
Negotiations
‑
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Certainly, we concur with the Premier (Mr.
Filmon) to oppose the lobbying by the mining industry and the 12 companies that
have the claims in the
The Premier, in his Estimates of March 23,
1992, indicated that he had discussed with the Premier of Ontario the need for
a management plan for the total watershed and work on the development of a
management plan for the total watershed.
Last time we asked questions to the Minister of Environment on this
issue, he indicated that those negotiations were somewhat in limbo, I guess we
can characterize his answer.
I would ask the Premier: Can he advise Manitobans what the status is
of the watershed negotiations that are going on, which obviously makes good
sense for
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, it is
still the position of this government that we want a complete watershed
management plan. I hope that the Leader
of the Opposition will use his good office to encourage his colleagues in
We had some confusion for a short period
of time between which ministry in
Environmental
Review Process
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Pursuant to the Premier's answer to the
question dealing with the meeting with Premier Rae, last week, when I asked the
question about the changing lobbying from Consolidated Professor, the minister
indicated that they would not be raising this issue formally with Ontario because,
quote: it was not a formal proposal from
Consolidated even though they had the whole mining industry behind them.
In his answer just now he indicated that
he has indeed raised this with the minister, which I congratulate him for
doing.
I would ask the Premier: Did he receive any commitment from the
Premier of Ontario not to proceed with a changed environmental process in the
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, I would be surprised, I suppose,
if the Premier would make a decision like that on the basis of a short
discussion with me. I will say that I
was encouraged by his response and his awareness of the concerns of Manitoba,
and I am optimistic that he would be supportive of our position that the
fullest possible environmental assessment review be done on any proposal, such
as the Consolidated Professor within the watershed of Shoal Lake, and in being
supportive, that would indicate that there would not be a change in the
proposed method of operation as we have been discussing it in the past.
Conawapa
Dam Project
Premier's
Discussions
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): I have a new question to the Premier.
Mr. Speaker, the Premier did indeed meet with
the Premier of Ontario last week, and he did discuss the issue of
Another very important project between the
two provinces obviously is the Conawapa Dam and the Conawapa project and the
transmission line that is proposed to go to
Since the government has signed the
agreement with Premier Peterson in
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did discuss that matter
with the Premier of Ontario.
Penalty
Clauses
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, many organizations in
I was wondering, in light of the change in
domestic load growth from an early date of 2001 for
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(1340)
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am a little amused at the
suggestion of the frenzied pace when the agreement was signed in December of
1989, and we are now two and a half years down the road. That is quite some frenzy that we are dealing
with. The fact of the matter is that the
change in load growth that is being referred to by the Leader of the Opposition
was anticipated and was taken into account by the Public Utilities Board in
their review. The Public Utilities Board
review anticipated a possible change of load growth projection when they made
their determination and their recommendation to proceed with the project.
The fact of the matter is that the
environmental assessment and review process will be carried out in as
reasonable a fashion as it possibly can.
We see no reason why the Leader of the Opposition or anybody would want
to unreasonably deter or in fact delay the project. The review will be done. People have had almost two and a half years
to prepare for the review on both sides, to prepare their case, to prepare
their information. Now when they go
before that very thorough and complete review, they will be able to make their
case.
I would assume that the Clean Environment
Commission and the joint review process before a panel of experts will give it
a very thorough, very complete and very well‑considered response whenever
that time arises. There is no reason on
our part to accelerate it, and there is no reason on the part of the opponents
to delay it. The process should take
place in a reasonable fashion, and it will take place in a reasonable fashion.
Premier's
Discussions
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, did the Premier raise the
concerns from the Manitoba MKO organization that Mr. Michael Anderson, the
research director of the organization representing 24 bands, has said that the
one‑month period that they have to present detailed presentation to the
panels is not enough time to deal with this issue? Has the Premier discussed some of these
concerns coming from bands which are most directly affected in terms of the
proposed transmission line? Did the
Premier discuss that with the Premier of Ontario, or can the Premier advise us
what he did discuss when he discussed the Conawapa project with the Premier of
Ontario last week when he met with him?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, I repeat that all of these people
including the bands have had almost two and a half years to consider the
proposal and the potential impacts of that proposal. I say, the Leader of the Opposition, from his
chair in opposition, has the great benefit of being able to be all over the map
and change his position very regularly.
I would like to just quote, Mr. Speaker,
what he said in July of 1988, in the debate on the first budget of this administration: We will fight the mothballing of our Manitoba
Hydro program right down the line this session and next session of the
Legislature.
He wanted this project and this proposal
to proceed expeditiously, as quickly as possible, because he wanted that hydro
project to be developed.
Now for his own political purposes, he is
changing 180 degrees and now talking about slowing down, slowing down,
obfuscating, delaying, all of those kinds of things. He cannot have it both ways. I know every day in this House and every day
out there he tries to have it all ways, but this is carrying it to a ridiculous
extreme, I would say.
Conawapa
Dam Project
Justification
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.
Speaker, that certainly has not been the position of the Liberal Party in
Mr. Speaker, it has become increasingly
clear that not only is that power not needed in the
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(1345)
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, let us not go from the sublime to
the ridiculous.
The fact of the matter is, this project
and the economics of this project were considered by an objective third‑party
review under the Public Utilities Board, and they determined that the economics
of the project were positive. They
determined that given the fact that there was an assumption that the projected
load growth could be out on either side, positive or negative, and they still
felt that the economics were positive.
I now find it rather amusing that the
Liberal Party argued against this project on the basis that Ontario had made
too good a deal, that the Liberal government of David Peterson had put one over
on us and made too good a deal on this, and that now we should be concerned
about it. Now the people appearing
before a similar review in Ontario are saying that Manitoba made too good a
deal, that Ontario is paying too big a price and that David Peterson got
snookered, Mr. Speaker.
Well, I wonder just what exactly the
Liberals want. Did they get snookered,
or did they not get snookered? Is David
Peterson a good negotiator, or is he not a good negotiator? Make up your mind.
Public
Utilities Board
Review
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Well,
with the greatest respect, Mr. Speaker, the arguments that are being made in
Mr. Speaker, the question being asked is
one that is very simple. The Public
Utilities Board decided this issue on information provided to them by Manitoba
Hydro, information which some three months later proved to be terribly
inaccurate. Why is this government so
afraid to take this deal back to the Public Utilities Board to ask them to re‑evaluate
it in light of new information provided by Manitoba Hydro?
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party
began her question founded on the credibility of those who were appearing at the
public review in
The fact of the matter is, the PUB report,
after the review of the capital projects of Manitoba Hydro, including Conawapa,
said, and I quote: The level of the DSM
target assumed for planning purposes today will not significantly affect the
conclusions concerning the profitability of the Ontario sale, nor will it
affect any current decisions regarding the construction of facilities.
They took it into account. It does not have to be rereviewed. They already took it into account. I invite the Leader of the Liberal Party to
read that report and to go and consult with the Public Utilities Board about
this matter instead of making outlandish suggestions.
Mrs. Carstairs: Well, with the greatest respect to the
Premier, the Public Utilities Board is supposed to be an arm's‑length
body from politicians and not to be one that is consulted with, one that
studies and observes.
Why is this government, in light of
significant new information, still refusing to do what is in the best interests
of the ratepayers of this province, which is to ensure that our money is being
spent appropriately?
Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, there is no new information. The Public Utilities Board said the level of
the DSM target, that is the domestic‑load‑growth target assumed for
planning purposes today, will not significantly affect the conclusions concerning
the profitability of the
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(1350)
Department
of Education and Training
Deputy
Minister's Salary
Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan):
Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the
Minister of Education and Training.
Mr. Speaker, in this budget, the
government talked about belt tightening for all Manitobans. It tells school boards and universities to
hold the line, yet the government in its actions does exactly the opposite by
giving great increases to elite schools while starving the public school
system.
Now, this year, we are being asked to
increase again the salary of a key appointment of the Conservatives, a deputy
minister, to $100,000 this year, which is a 7 percent increase this year and a
37 percent increase in the last three years.
How can this minister justify this
increase while telling everyone else to hold the line?
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to correct first of all some of the information that the
critic has tried to put on the record.
In fact, we have increased our funding to the public school system in
this province. We have increased our
funding to the university system. We
have increased our funding to community colleges, and we have increased our
commitment to training.
The further issues that he has raised I
will be happy to answer for him during the Estimates process.
Executive
Support
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): Perhaps the minister can tell me therefore why
the Department of Education, in the last three years, has increased its
expenditures for Executive Support to the minister by 40 percent or $150,000.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): To ensure
that my critic understands it, there is a general salary increase necessary;
however, the details I will be happy to discuss in Estimates.
Deputy
Minister's Salary
Mr. Dave Chomiak
(Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, will the minister have the
courage to limit the increase to her deputy minister at least to the same level
that she has given to public schools in
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): Mr.
Speaker, I will be more than happy to debate the issue with my honourable
friend during the Estimates process.
Health
Care System
Deinsurance
‑ Impacted Wisdom Teeth
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
Mr. Speaker, in the past, this government
has deinsured a number of services under medicare. Today we have learned that this deinsurance
has been extended to now cover the removal of impacted teeth under certain
circumstances, with new definitions, in hospital when anesthetic services are
required.
I would like to know from this minister
why this decision was made, what savings he will incur, and what is the impact‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
The question has been put.
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, yes, we
have had discussions, since approximately June or July of last year, with the
providers in terms of the insured removal of asymptomatic impacted wisdom
teeth. Those procedures have been
undertaken in the past from time to time, without medical necessity, in the
hospital at a cost to the system when there was not the medical necessity for
utilization of hospital facilities.
The regulations that we have recently
passed assure the continuation, Sir, of medically required surgical removal of
impacted wisdom teeth so that this service will continue to be available to
those Manitobans who require hospitalization for that because of the medical
necessity, either of their personal health or the condition of their impacted
wisdom teeth.
However, the system will now reflect
removal of impacted wisdom teeth where asymptomatic ones will no longer be
undertaken in the hospital with medicare coverage.
*
(1355)
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Could the minister please tell this House what
consultations he has had with professional groups, the Manitoba Dental
Association, the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the anesthetists of this province,
as well as consultations with the consumers in Manitoba, particularly the
seniors in this province, and what were the results of those deliberations and
consultations for this deinsurance move?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, before my honourable friend
leaves the impression that medically needed removal of impacted wisdom teeth is
deinsured, let my honourable friend not spread that falsehood.
Medically required removal in hospital
will still be available and insured under the medicare plan in
Now let me indicate to my honourable friend
that we have had discussions around this issue for approximately 10 months with
the Dental Association. We have had
discussions with the MMA through the anesthetists because that also was part of
the discussions.
Mr. Speaker, although my honourable friend
may wish to attempt to raise a great consternation about this, I simply say to
my honourable friend that the regulations that we have now brought into
existence in Manitoba parallel long‑standing regulations in other
provinces where only medically necessary removal of impacted wisdom teeth are
covered, such provinces as Ontario.
Health
Care System
Deinsurance
‑ Impacted Wisdom Teeth
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
I would like to ask the Minister
responsible for Seniors if he could tell this House if he was consulted about
this decision and what impact this will have on seniors' access to our
universally high‑quality, accessible medical system.
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister responsible for Seniors): Yes, I
was consulted. I think the Minister of
Health explained it very well. When
there is a health problem, it will be dealt with in the usual manner, and that
was very well explained by the Health minister.
Health
Care System
Deinsurance
‑ Impacted Wisdom Teeth
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister
of Health.
The minister has signed an Order‑in‑Council,
and it does clearly indicate that some of the services will not be insured.
Those services will not be covered by anesthesia coverage also. As the minister
would know, there is a major case in
The minister should tell us: Has he had enough consultation process to
make sure that the procedures which are going to be done because of this Order‑in‑Council
are not a serious risk to any given person?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, since my
honourable friend has the Order‑in‑Council with the attached
regulations, he will find in those regulations a significant amount of
underpinning which would define medical circumstances under which impacted
wisdom teeth removal would be insured in the hospital system. There are a number of medical circumstances
outside of the condition of the teeth, per se, which would qualify and keep
that removal of wisdom teeth insured and delivered in the hospital. It is the asymptomatic removal, where there
is not a demonstrated medical need for hospitalization, that is not being
covered.
I simply say to my honourable friend that
the kind of circumstance that happened in Ontario‑‑I cannot
prejudge the findings of the inquest‑‑but should that, for
instance, have been caused by a medical condition of the patient, I think the
regulations that were passed provide the kind of protection so that will not
happen in Manitoba.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, the issue is the safety of the
patient. If the procedures are done,
because of this regulation, outside the hospital, it will expose them to
unwarranted risk.
Can the minister tell us: Has he had any consultation? Can he table his consultation in this House
so that patients can have some sense of relief that everything possible was
done before this decision was made?
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(1400)
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I have already dealt with the
issue of consultation. I will openly say
that the MDA did not agree with the final regulation because it does have an
impact on practice patterns of some of their membership, and I understand that.
Mr. Speaker, the key issue my honourable
friend raised was the assurance of safe care to the patients. We are talking asymptomatic; in other words,
no indicated health problem with the wisdom teeth to be removed. In the past, the removal of those teeth,
which, if there is no medical problem, has always been the responsibility of
the individual to pay either through their private insurance or through their
own resources, has from time to time been undertaken in the hospital system, so
that the taxpayer pays for it, when there is no medical necessity for that
removal to take place in the hospital.
What we are doing is assuring that needed
medical removals of impacted wisdom teeth are undertaken in the hospital to
assure that patient's safety; others will not be paid for by the taxpayers when
there is not the demonstrated medical necessity.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, the question still remains the
safety of the patient when the patients are going to be served outside the
hospital system and with a general anesthesia or any other form of anesthesia
that will expose them to unwarranted risk.
The question is: Can the minister tell us how he can assure
that such incidents as occurred in Ontario‑‑a very, very major
tragic incident, a young boy died. Mr.
Speaker, we want the minister to tell us why he has taken such a drastic stand
without proper consultation.
Mr. Orchard: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I reject my
honourable friend's allegation "without proper consultation." We did have consultation going back to last
summer with the Manitoba Dental Association.
We agreed to disagree on some parts of the procedure.
Let my honourable friend not mislead the
people of
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Furnace
Inspections
Carbon
Monoxide Levels
Mr. Jim Maloway
(Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of
Health.
As the minister is aware, health concerns
due to faulty furnaces are mounting. In fact,
many people such as Dan and Linda Welsh, who have suffered headaches, rashes
and nausea over the past year, finally were told that they were at acceptable
limits of carbon monoxide.
Since the written results are now
available and show that they are well over the acceptable limits, can the
minister investigate why the testing in this particular case took so long and
why they were told wrongly on Friday that they had nothing to worry about?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, without
accepting some of the preamble and allegations, I will investigate the role
that my ministry had in this issue. The
primary role has been undertaken through the Department of Labour, and I will
provide my honourable friend with as much information as I can.
Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, I just received a message a
minute ago that in Landmark a furnace was shut down, and it had very high, top‑level
carbon monoxide figures.
My question to the minister is: Are people whose furnaces are being
condemned, such as this person in Landmark, being told to immediately take
blood tests? How many other cases of
carbon monoxide poisoning that exceed acceptable limits has this minister's
department heard from in the past month?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I am, as you might expect, unable
to respond to the last‑minute information of a furnace in Landmark that
my honourable friend refers to.
However, Mr. Speaker, I think quite
possibly what my honourable friend is trying to accomplish is a greater public
awareness of the issue of the gas furnaces, apparently made by one manufacturer
in
I think, if my honourable friend is trying
to raise public awareness of individuals in Manitoba who have those furnaces,
that brand of furnace, that they ought to investigate and access whatever
resources available to investigate, I suggest, Sir, that my honourable friend
is serving the public of Manitoba well because certainly that is what we have
been trying to do on this side of the House.
Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker, if the minister would simply
check with the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), who sits right behind
him, he would tell him that he was informed last Friday of the situation in
Landmark‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Question, please.
Furnace
Inspections
Faulty
Heat Exchangers
Mr. Jim Maloway
(Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary, since I
am not getting answers from this minister, is to the Acting Minister of Labour.
I would like to ask the Acting Minister of
Labour: How many brands of furnaces,
other than Flame‑Master, have been found to have cracked heat exchangers?
Hon. Glen Cummings
(Acting Minister of Labour): Mr.
Speaker, as acting minister, I will take that question as notice, and I am sure
that the minister will be more than willing to respond with any information.
Federal
Trade Tribunal
Mr. Reg Alcock
(Osborne): Mr. Speaker, to the Acting Minister of
Industry, Trade and Tourism, as a result of an unequal application of federal
tax policy, three Winnipeg cabinetmakers have been denied over half a million
dollars in rebates which other cabinetmakers in this country have been paid.
The federal Trade Tribunal has ruled in
favour of these three cabinetmakers, but still the federal government is
refusing to rebate the funds to them.
I would like to ask the Acting Minister of
Industry, Trade and Tourism whether or not they have made any representations
on behalf of these three businesses in
Hon. Jim Ernst (Acting
Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the
specifics of the matter, but I will certainly take that information back to the
minister and have him provide an answer in due course.
Federal
Trade Tribunal
Mr. Reg Alcock
(Osborne): Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could ask the Premier
the same question.
Has the Premier or his office made any
representations on behalf of these three
Hon. Gary Filmon
(Premier): Mr. Speaker, that matter, I know, has been
reviewed by a number of people in this government. It is a matter that has been referred to the
Department of Finance, with respect to looking at the decision that was made by
that tribunal and in attempting to determine whether or not there is a role to
be played by this government. To my
knowledge, no decision has been made on that matter.
Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, is it possible to let these
people know when a decision will be made?
Can the Premier tell us when his government will come to some sort of
decision, or whether or not they are prepared to assist these three people who,
it has now been proven, are out over half a million dollars?
Mr. Filmon: When the review has been completed, Mr.
Speaker.
Seniors
Housing ‑
Lounge
Repair
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): Mr. Speaker, we hear in this Chamber the
rhetoric and the discussions about seniors, how important their programs are
and how committed the government is to help the seniors and on and on and on.
At
Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister
of Housing): Mr. Speaker, first of all let me correct the
record. The lounge was not
destroyed. There was an arson that took
place at that building. The ceiling of
the lounge was destroyed. The ceiling
has not yet been replaced.
When the matter was brought to my
attention about a week ago, I made significant inquiries in my department as to
why it has not been repaired, and I concur with the honourable member, it
should have been.
Seniors
Housing ‑
Lounge
Repair
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the next
question to the Minister responsible for Seniors.
I think that is the same minister who
deindexed the 55 Plus; now he has the opportunity to stand up for the seniors
and get something done because the lounge is very, very important to the
seniors.
Will he now consult with the minister to
get immediate action?
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister responsible for Seniors): To the
member who did not deindex the pension plan over there, for over 10 years they
did not increase the 55 Plus.
To the member, there goes to show, it was
this Premier of this province who established the Seniors Directorate. I consulted with the member from Housing in
consultation with the Powers seniors home.
It is because of that that the minister has answered that it will be
repaired, and he has asked his staff to quickly do that.
Seniors
Housing
Security
Systems
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): Mr. Speaker, my third question is to the same
Minister responsible for Seniors.
Security is a great concern for all
seniors in
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(1410)
Hon. Gerald Ducharme
(Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr.
Speaker, I have toured blocks, seniors accommodations throughout the province,
and there are different security problems throughout that area. I will continue to review all those blocks.
Mr. Speaker, there are 20,000 units
throughout the province to review.
Decentralization
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): My questions are for the Minister responsible
for Decentralization.
In the past two budgets, this government
has cut over 25 Civil Service jobs in Selkirk with the closure of the school of
nursing and the Human Resources Opportunity Centre. Fortunately, we were able to stop plans to
move 25 Highways jobs from Selkirk to Beausejour. Unfortunately, it now appears that the government
is once again considering such a move.
Will the Minister responsible for
Decentralization (Mr. Downey) assure this House that he will forcibly argue
with his cabinet colleagues to stop Selkirk from losing any more Civil Service
jobs?
Hon. Leonard Derkach
(Minister of Rural Development): Mr.
Speaker, I would have to say that to this point in time, this government has
decentralized somewhere in the neighbourhood of 500 Civil Service positions to
various rural locations in
Mr. Speaker, let me say that it is up to
each and every department to assess the requirements for staffing within their
departments, and those decisions have to be made by those departments. Where possible, we are trying to accommodate
communities with decentralization moves.
There are still over 100 positions that have to be decentralized, and
certainly we will be working as diligently as we can to ensure that our
commitment is maintained.
Decentralization
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): My question is for the Minister of Highways.
Is Selkirk going to lose 25 Highways jobs
to Beausejour?
Hon. Albert Driedger
(Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, within my department, for
the past four years, we have had ongoing reviews of how we deliver our highway
program through the province, and that is a continuing process that is going on
right now. I cannot give the member an
indication whether there is going to be any changes in Selkirk at this time or
not.
I want to indicate that we are looking at
regionalizing to some degree. We are
looking at the concept of regionalizing to be able to deliver a better service
to Manitobans.
Decentralization
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): My final question is for the Minister
responsible for Decentralization (Mr. Downey).
Can the minister indicate how many jobs he
has moved to Selkirk to replace all the jobs that his government has taken from
the community?
Hon. Leonard Derkach
(Minister of Rural Development): Mr.
Speaker, I do not have the specific numbers for each and every community at my
fingertips, but indeed that is information I can research, and I will be happy
to get back to the member.
Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.
Speaker's
Ruling
Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House.
On Wednesday, April 8, 1992, during debate
on Bill 45, a point of order was raised by the honourable member for Portage la
Prairie (Mr. Connery) alleging that the opposition House leader, the member for
Thompson (Mr. Ashton), had stated and I quote, "we are having biased
chairing in this House" in reference to the Chair. The point of order was taken under advisement
by the Deputy Speaker.
I have reviewed Hansard and find that the
words, and I quote, "It goes too far when we have biased chairing. I will challenge biased chairing." do
appear in Hansard, but the words are not attributed to a particular honourable
member. In past cases of points of order
being raised when words are spoken by a person not in possession of the floor
and not attributed to a particular member, Speakers have indicated they are
unable to rule on the matter. The point
of order raised by the honourable member for
However, with respect to the immediately
preceding events, I wish to caution all members and, in this case in
particular, the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) that once a ruling
is made by a presiding officer, no member should question the ruling. In a point of order immediately preceding the
one just referenced on April 8, the member for Thompson stated on the record
regarding the Deputy Speaker's ruling on relevance, and I quote: "the Deputy Speaker is in error...the
member is in order."
I do not wish to have a repeat of such a
comment in this Chamber. To quote
Beauchesne's, and I quote: "The
Presiding Officer, while but a servant of the House, is entitled on all occasions
to be treated with the greatest attention and respect by the individual members
because the office embodies the power, dignity and honour of the House
itself," and I quote: "the
actions of the Speaker cannot be criticized incidentally in debate or upon any
form of proceeding."
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, in
regard to this particular matter, I would just like to indicate that certainly
I and members on this side and in fact any member of the Legislature certainly
does have the right to challenge a Speaker's ruling.
If my comments were seen as any way reflecting
on the Chair or on the Deputy Speaker, I apologize for that, and I hope that in
the future we can proceed accordingly.
Mr. Speaker: I appreciate the remarks of the honourable
member for Thompson.
TABLING OF
REPORTS
Hon. Leonard Derkach
(Minister of Rural Development): Mr.
Speaker, may I have leave of the House to revert back to tabling of reports?
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Rural
Development have leave to revert back to ministerial statements and tabling of
reports?
Some Honourable Members:
Leave.
Mr. Speaker: Leave. It
is agreed.
Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual
Report for the Manitoba Water Services Board.
NONPOLITICAL
STATEMENT
Mr. Marcel Laurendeau
(St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave for a
nonpolitical statement?
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Norbert have
leave to make a nonpolitical statement?
Some Honourable Members:
Leave.
Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to
rise today to congratulate one of the cornerstones of
Great‑West Life Assurance Company
started up in
The current President and CEO, John Green,
sees nothing but expanding horizons in the company's future, as new fields are
pursued and their hold on older fields are solidified. Great‑West Life
benefits from its central location in
Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all Manitobans,
I would like to thank the staff and management of Great‑West Life for
their ongoing contributions to the quality of life within our city's
communities. With companies like Great‑West
Life acting as ambassadors and beacons for the business community of
Mr. Speaker, congratulations to Great‑West
Life on their first 100 years, and the city of Winnipeg looks forward to
another 100 years. Thank you. * (1420)
ORDERS OF
THE DAY
Hon. James McCrae
(Acting Government House Leader): Mr.
Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness),
that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a
committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.
Motion agreed to, and the House resolved
itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty
with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for
the Department of Health; and the honourable member for
COMMITTEE
OF SUPPLY
(Concurrent
Sections)
HEALTH
*
(1440)
Mr. Deputy Chairperson
(Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please.
Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.
This afternoon this section of the
Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates
of Health.
When the committee last sat, it had been
considering item 2.(b) Health Promotion, Protection, and Disease Prevention, on
page 83.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
I would like to know from the minister,
and we are still all trying to understand what the Order‑in‑Council
released today means, if he could tell us how many cases of removal of impacted
teeth or wisdom teeth are we talking about that have not been necessary for
medical reasons, and on what basis has the minister made that determination,
and what kind of savings are we talking about?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Our estimate that we
have is between 1,200 and 1,600 procedures on an annual basis. The potential
impact that we expect as a reduction in the amount of money that the taxpayers
will pay is about $500,000.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Is the minister saying that between 1,200 and
1,600 procedures are done that are in hospital, under anesthetic, that are not
really required, have not been referred to begin with, and that the cost of all
those is about half a million dollars, and that is a total saving for the
taxpayers of Manitoba?
Mr. Orchard: Investigating this issue, the indication is
that asymptomatic wisdom teeth removal in hospitals where the procedure does
not have to be done in the hospital, there is no medical justification for it,
amounts to between 1,200 and 1,600 per year, and that the estimated cost to the
medicare program is $550,000. That is
why I used the figure, say, a half a million dollars.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, could the minister
indicate if he looked at other options for dealing with this issue, that being
the unnecessary referral of this procedure to hospitals? Was there not another way to get at the heart
of the problem rather than deinsure from our medicare system a particular
service?
Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, not that I want
to get into a big fight with my honourable friend, but we did not deinsure any
service. What we have done is continue
to provide insured service provision and coverage for medically necessary removal
of wisdom teeth. That has been in place
for many, many years. What we did in the
regulations is to make the best effort we can to prevent the taxpayers paying
for nonmedically required hospital use, taxpayer paid, removal of asymptomatic
wisdom teeth. There has not been any
procedure deinsured. It is impacted
wisdom tooth removal, where medically required, is still an insured service in
the hospital system. Where for reasons
that one can only speculate about, a number of procedures estimated to be
between 1,200 and 1,600 of asymptomatic wisdom teeth removal were undertaken in
the hospital inappropriately, because there was not the medical necessity to
have that procedure done in the hospital, there was no medical requirement.
What was the driving force, I think,
without question was the fact that if it was done in the hospital, the
taxpayers would pay for it rather than the individual. But there was no medical necessity to have it
there. I think all of us agree we ought
to use our hospitals for medically required procedures, and that is what we
will continue to do with this new regulation around impacted wisdom teeth. There has been no deinsurance of the removal
of impacted wisdom teeth where medically necessary.
*
(1450)
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: There is a concern that underlies all of this
and that is the question of, regardless of what savings, how many people are
you putting at risk. It gets to the
question: Is the minister confident that no patient will be put at risk?
In fact, by going from the system of
simple statement of a service being covered under medicare to a long list of
circumstances under which the procedure would be done or covered under medicare
does create some gray area. It is not all
cut and dried. I think the overriding
concern is‑‑
Mr. Orchard: Whose overriding concern?
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Okay, let me clarify. The minister says whose overriding
concern? My overriding concern, and I
think some of the concerns expressed by the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema),
and I will let him speak for himself in a moment‑‑one concern that
has been expressed is when it is not cut and dried and you are operating in a
gray area, how does one ensure that patients are not put at risk and all the
savings in the world, will that be a sufficient answer if one person needlessly
dies in a dental office because they did not have the benefit of full
anesthetic coverage in a hospital?
Mr. Orchard: If my honourable friend wants‑‑and
it might be helpful for those people who read Hansard, for me to read the
conditions under which‑‑I know you have them, but my honourable
friend is saying what if someone might die from the removal of an asymptomatic
wisdom tooth. If a person died from the
asymptomatic removal of a wisdom tooth, I guess I would have to ask why was
that asymptomatic tooth being removed in the first place. I mean, if the danger is in the procedure,
then surely my honourable friend would want to have the assurance for the
patients being recommended this procedure that it is necessary to be done.
You know as well as I do that removal of
wisdom teeth has become, not a routinely recommended procedure, but a procedure
that is often offered to individual Manitobans.
We insure that procedure where there is a medical requirement for
removal.
Just to clarify the depth around which
that means, here is the definition of an impacted tooth‑‑
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.
Point of
Order
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I appreciate the minister wanting to go over
this‑‑
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.
Is the honourable member bringing forward a point of order?
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Yes, I raised a sincere question. I am not trying to be confrontational. I am simply suggesting, we have the list in front
of us the minister is about to read that was an Order‑in‑Council
tabled, so I did not ask for the information.
I appreciate his response, and I would be prepared on that basis to go
on and try to ask another question to get at some of my concerns. I would be quite happy to indicate, when I
have asked these questions and the minister has answered them to say that maybe
our concerns are unjustified. I am
trying to get to that point.
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member does not have a point of
order. It is a dispute over the facts.
* * *
Mr. Orchard: I am not going to read the whole
regulation. I just want to say here are
the definitions, because this is important in understanding the issue. An impacted tooth is: (a) a tooth that is completely or partially
unerupted and positioned against another tooth, bone, or soft tissue so that
further eruption is unlikely; or, (b) fails to move into position and function
within a reasonable length of time.
Surgical removal of those impacted teeth
including hospital costs is an insured service, so when I said to my honourable
friend earlier that we did not deinsure anything‑‑I will begin
again. Surgical removal of impacted
teeth including hospital costs is an insured service when performed by a
certified oral or maxillofacial surgeon or a licensed dentist if the following
conditions are met:
(a) the practitioner provides a statement
and supporting information, including X‑rays where appropriate,
acceptable to the commission that the procedure is a dental necessity and that
(i) hospital facilities are required for
the properperformance of the procedure, or
(ii) a pre‑existing medical
condition requires in‑hospitalmonitoring of the insured person during the
peri‑operativeperiod; and
(b) the commission approves the procedure
in writing before it is performed.
There is a very definitive criteria where
medical necessity, when established, leaves the impacted removal procedure an
insured service. I just say to my
honourable friend that under 2(1)(a)(ii) the pre‑existing medical
condition is the extensive medical conditions which take the next two and half
pages so that the practitioners understand conditions under which they can
readily make the in‑hospital insured provision of this service available
to their clients so that we will not have a circumstance of a medically
required procedure not being undertaken in the hospital. But there is a process to go through because‑‑and
I do not think anyone argues about this‑‑there were a number of
asymptomatic wisdom teeth removals done in the hospital system to avoid the
requirement of personal payment.
Now that is not using our medical system
for medically required services and that is what this regulation narrows the
criterion around, to assure that we are paying for medically required removal
of symptomatic wisdom teeth under conditions described and advanced in
substantial detail in the regulation.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Let me ask how this would impact on a couple
of specific areas and then pass it over to the member for Maples (Mr. Cheema)
who I am sure with his medical background will have much more intelligent
questions than I on this matter.
I am concerned about two groups of
people: Senior citizens where there may
not be a history of any of these medical conditions, cardiovascular,
respiratory, et cetera, but because of their age and the fact that such a major
dental service or exercise might have in terms of shock and trauma to a senior
citizen. I think that does get into a
gray area then in terms of a practitioner justifying whether something should
be covered or not in hospital, or provided or not in hospital. That is one issue.
The other is with respect to northerners
who will have now a further obstacle to access to a necessary service since
once a service is no longer covered, however the minister wants to define it,
because some parts of removal of impacted teeth will not be covered, they will
not have access to the Northern Transportation program, clearly creating
impediments to this operation, this service, this medical exercise which could
result in secondary infections, could result in problems down the road, could
result in much steeper costs for taxpayers down the road. I think that is a
legitimate concern and I would ask on both fronts.
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my honourable friend
used some interesting language. With
seniors, she said major surgery. If that
major surgery is major surgery, it can be proven under these regulations that
it should be done in the hospital and will be covered. If, for instance, the senior with this major
surgery in determining whether a procedure is a dental necessity under Clause
(1)(a), the commission shall consider whether
(a) there is a significant risk to the
insured person's oral health resulting from:
(i) infection; (ii) a nonrestorable carious lesion, (iii) a cyst, (iv) a
tumour, (v) destruction of adjacent teeth and bone, (vi) local pain that is
continuous, such as it impairs the insured person's functioning, or (vii) other
criteria that the commission considers appropriate; or (b) that the procedure
is necessary for the safe completion of another insured oral surgical
procedure, including fracture treatment and osteotomy.
If it is a major surgery for a senior, as
my honourable friend says, and is going to compromise their health care, it is
an insured service. If it is
asymptomatic, where they are having them removed because there is no pain
because the dentist said, well, you know, maybe we should take a look at that
and remove them, it will not be.
*
(1500)
But you know what the decision will be
then? If they are not paining and they
are not causing a problem, the senior will probably decide, I do not need them
removed. There is no pain, I do not have
to worry about infection, I do not have a cyst or a tumor. There is nothing really the matter. It just was recommended they be removed. They will not be removed then, because many
people walk around with wisdom teeth, many people, without any problem. But I want to tell you that from time to
time, it has been recommended they be removed, and sometimes that removal is
done in the hospital, no medical necessity and no endangerment to the
patient. These regulations assure that
where there is a medical necessity, it will be undertaken.
Now, my honourable friend describes
northerners because they want to work in some great problem for northern
Manitobans. If it is a necessary
service, it will be covered. They will
access Northern Patient Transportation services. If it is not medically necessary, they are
the same as any other Manitoban in that it will not be covered.
I realize and I fully admit that after the
consultation we did with the Manitoba Dental Association, we agreed not to
agree on this regulation. I accept that because
this affects the method of practice of some dentists. I am not wanting to get into any kind of a
fight or anything like that, but anytime you remove access to a free medical
service, naturally, you are going to have people say that we do not agree to
this.
I accept that, but I have the
responsibility under constant pressure from my honourable friend to spend more
money on what she considers to be medically necessary areas of health care
service delivery. I have a responsibility
to make sure those resources are available in as much quantity as possible
which means from time to time I have to take a look, as previous governments
have done, on where insured services are not medically necessary. Where there is clear indication of that and
we can change the regulation without compromising the quality of care, the
safety of care, the delivery of necessary care to patients, then we ought to
remove that nonmedical cost to the taxpayers.
I mean it only makes sense because those
are resources that we can use on medically required procedures in the system,
and I just want to point out in completing the answer, New Brunswick has never
had impacted teeth removal as an insured service. We were unique in that we had it fairly wide
open, and under any circumstances, they are not covered in
So it is not as if we are out of step with
every other provincial jurisdiction. I
just say to my honourable friend that in crafting this regulation, and this was
back and forth with the MDA, we tried as much as possible to clearly lay out
patient conditions under which hospital removal would be beneficial in that you
would not be compromising the outcome for the patient.
We have written those in and we think we
have quite a complete list of patient conditions and circumstances under which
the procedure will be covered, but where it is asymptomatic and it cannot be
demonstrated as a health need, we are not going to dedicate taxpayer resource
for that, and that is estimated to apply in about 1,200 to 1,600 cases for a
total cost of over $500,000, but for a rough figure, a half million
dollars. I think we have done a quite
responsible job of trying to assure that the medical necessity is still
covered.
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have a concern as
regards the safety of the whole thing, because it is very well explained in
terms of what is a necessity and what is not a necessity. The minister knows that we have only five licensed
facilities where the outpatient procedures can be done. If one of these
procedures are being done in the outpatient, for example in the dentist's
office, if the patient will get into trouble even if the person is perfectly
healthy, you do not have a standby anesthesia, you do not have the facility
approved for all these procedures, there is a great risk.
We have a case in
Can the minister tell us how these
procedures are being done in other provinces?
Are they doing it in a dentist's office all the time, and if they are
doing it, then can he provide us the information from that point of view? Also what were the views of the Manitoba
Dental Association in terms of the safety of patients?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, let me try that
because my honourable friend's issue is slightly different than the general
issue that was raised by the member for
We had an anomaly in that impacted wisdom
teeth removal in a dentist's office, the removal being paid for by the
patient. The anomaly was that we would
insure the anesthetic services for that.
We did not do that for any other, for instance, noninsured plastic
surgeries or anything else.
The second part of this regulation is that
in the case where a patient is in a dentist's office, is paying for the
removal, or has a private dental plan, of impacted wisdom teeth in a dentist's
office, this regulation will no longer allow the commission to pay for the
anesthetic services. That will be paid
for by the patient or the insurer. That
is the issue my honourable friend was coming to.
Again I simply say to my honourable friend
nothing has changed in the way that the decision would be made to do this in a
dentist's office versus a hospital. I
mean right now, under the circumstance that I am describing for my honourable
friend, I have chosen to have my wisdom teeth removed in a hospital and have it
covered by my dental plan. I have had
the ability to go under general anesthetic rather than local because it was
paid for by MHSC, by the insured services plan.
Now it will not be covered by insured
service. My insurance company is going
to have to pick it up, or if I was paying it out of pocket, I would have to pay
the additional $100 or thereabouts out of pocket. I mean whether that happened with this
regulation in place or before, I am still taking the risk of local anesthetic
in a dentist's office without the backup.
I mean nothing has changed. That
is why the regulations are crafted to try and list pre‑existing medical
conditions which is 2(3) wherein the physical condition of an individual would
lead one to have that procedure undertaken in a hospital under general
anesthesia with the backup that hospitals can provide.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have no disagreement
with what the minister said until the last word. The issue here is going to come that when
those services are not going to be insured, as you have said, whether in the
office or the hospital, there comes the question of safety.
I want to make sure from our point of view
that the patient's safety is kept up to the utmost importance. That can only be done if the regulations that
were followed before are going to be followed now. That is why we want to know what the MDA said
on the issue, how they are going to provide the standby anesthesia in terms of
how are they going to be continuing to provide these services in a similar
quality care fashion that they were doing when they were paid, or are they
going to do it in a different way? That
is the issue. I just hope that I make myself
very clear.
The issue is the safety of the patient
because somebody will go to a dentist's office or any office, and if you are
getting a procedure done, even if you are perfectly healthy, you can get
anaphylactic shot. It has happened in
We just want the minister to be aware of
that, be cautious and make sure the dental body will follow the regulations
they were following before when they were paid by the MHSC. That is the issue because that way, we are
securing the safety of the patient.
*
(1510)
Mr. Orchard: All I can say to my honourable friend is that
if the procedure for the individual that my honourable friend has hypothetically
described, that there is a potential compromise or there is a compromise of his
or her health from this procedure because of a medical condition, then that
case can be made, and it will continue to be done in the hospital. But where there is no medical condition or
condition of the teeth themselves which requires that hospitalization, it will
be done in the private office, in the dentist's office.
Now, let me tell my honourable friend that
then it becomes very much a question of choice.
I mean, if you are not in pain, I mean, with your teeth aching all the
time, you might not choose to go ahead with the removal of impacted wisdom
teeth. Currently, today, under the circumstance, if you were able to access the
system this way, and a number did, you would have the recommendation to remove
your wisdom teeth. It could be suggested
they could book you into the hospital and have it done three weeks from now,
and you would agree to it because it is of no cost‑‑okay, maybe I
should get them removed. But all of a
sudden, if you know that you have to pay for this yourself, and you did not
have aching teeth and you did not have an X‑ray showing you that this is
the reason why is has to be taken out, you might decide to leave them in.
Let me tell you, there is always risk
whenever you do anything under general anesthesia. There is always a risk to general anesthesia,
so if now we are getting into the issue that the choice the consumer is going
to make is to not remove their wisdom teeth, maybe that is a very good choice
because we have not exposed them to any risk then, whereas now, by having it
accessible within the hospital, and not for medical reasons but for payment
reasons, we are putting the person under general anesthetic, that itself, by
itself, can be a risk. If anything, by
putting more informed consumer choice in place, we are probably reducing the
risk. We are not going to have them go
through unnecessary removal.
The Manitoba Dental Association‑‑we
did not end up having agreement on the regulations as crafted, and I will stand
corrected on Monday, but I am not aware of any medical reason that the MDA
brought up which was not included in the regulations because we did make some
changes at their suggestion.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the simple question here
is that the procedure, those which are going to be done now, whether they are
small numbers or large numbers, that depends upon the individual choice, but if
those procedures are going to be carried out in dentists' offices, we want to
make sure the safety precautions, the anesthesia coverage and the anesthesia
backup is the same as it was done before when they were paid by the Manitoba
Health Services insurance.
That is our point of view. We want to make sure the patient's safety is
of the utmost importance and kept with the best of the ability and within the
same principles as they were applied before when they were being paid by the
provincial government. That is what we
are simply asking. There is no way that
we are going to question in terms of the dental extraction only on the basis of
nonmedical reasons. I think those things
are gone a long time ago. It should have
been done a long time ago. That is not
the issue.
I just want the minister to discuss this
issue with the MDA and ask them, and for his own protection and from the
government's point of view, they want to make sure that those procedures are
followed the same way they were done before.
That is my concern, and I want to make
sure that our views are known because something could go wrong, and then the
minister can simply say that we made sure and we were very careful. We made sure through the Manitoba Dental
Association that the same procedures, same precautions and same guidelines
still apply, even though services are not covered by the Health Services
insurance.
I think that can only be done by the
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think that this
assurance has been part of the regulation drafting, but with the abundance of
caution that I like to approach these issues with, I am going to have staff
review my honourable friend's comments to make sure that we are satisfied we
have not missed some item because, I mean, we are not perfect.
My honourable friend suggested a
circumstance under reversal of sterilization last year that was appropriately
incorporated that was not originally in the regulations, so I take my
honourable friend's caution and will undertake review to make sure that we can
offer that assurance.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have just a final
comment. I think it is extremely
important, because the associations have their own views and government has its
own views. The basic thing is, we want
to make sure that the patient's safety is kept in mind, specifically when we
have only a total of five clinics, private surgical clinics‑‑two
are eye and three are other general procedures where oral maxillary surgery is
being done.
Those are very approved clinics. The MDA and the college have full control,
and they make sure that everything is done in the best possible way. In the same way, we want to make sure that
when services are not covered by the taxpayer, they should be honoured the same
way they were done before.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I have just one last question on this whole
issue. What will be the process for
medical practitioners getting authorization that removal of impacted teeth
would be covered? Will practitioners need
to get preclearance?
Mr. Orchard: Yes. As
I indicated in 2(1) of the regulation, Clause (b) says, the commission approves
the procedure in writing before it is performed‑‑basis the criteria
I read out, you know, the information including X‑rays, et cetera. Then, the second criteria‑‑preexisting
medical condition of the individual requiring an in‑hospital procedure,
and then those will be reviewed and the commission will approve.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Thank you.
I appreciate that clarification.
Is the minister contemplating any other
changes to services covered under The Health Services Insurance Act?
Mr. Orchard: Yes, there are other discussions that we have
ongoing and hope to conclude, again, around the area of medical necessity, and
I cannot be any more clear.
I will tell my honourable friend that this
is an ongoing process. As we find our
resources‑‑the more demand on the resources than we are able to
meet, we are going to be looking very diligently at the whole fee schedule and
a number of procedures that have been included as a matter of habit for many
years and some new ones, to assure that we are getting necessary, positive
medical benefit from them. Where we are
not, we are going to enter into discussions with the provider group on ways of
removal of that.
It is an ongoing process. This one is the major change that we have
made this year. The half‑million‑dollar
impact to the dentists is fairly significant.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: One other matter that I raised earlier, and it
has to do with the change in the per diem rates for personal care homes. I searched high and low for regulations that
would have covered that period between 1989 and the present and was not able to
find anything.
I am just wondering if at some point the
minister could table for us the copies of the regulations that made those per
diem changes between February 1989 and May 1992.
*
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Mr. Orchard: The information that we had just prior to the
Estimates was not the right year or something like that, and the staff are just
trying to get the regulation that was passed a year ago because we are all
quite sure that we passed one. I mean,
it is the only way we can increase the charges, otherwise, we might have
ourselves quite a little quandary here.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, while we are on this
topic of deinsurance of some of these services, can the minister get us also a
copy from other provinces for services they had deinsured for the last few
years? Last year, when we had some
deinsurance here in terms of some of these skin lesions and then we went into
redefining of some of the things, I talked to the assessors at the Manitoba
Health Services Commission. They were
very co‑operative, but we were not able to get to the clear definition of
so many things.
I think it would be good if we could get a
list from all provinces that will make not only our lives easier, probably the
minister's life will be a lot easier so that comparison is available to make
sure that those services are how we will provide those services in Manitoba.
Mr. Orchard: Look, I try to bring myself up to date
because, like for instance, in this one of asymptomatic wisdom teeth
removal. When this came up as an option for
discussion, I asked the question, what do other provinces do, how was it
handled, et cetera, et cetera?
I found on investigation that as I
indicated earlier on, we were probably as generous as any province in the
removal of wisdom teeth. The regulation
we are putting in place now makes us quite consistent with most other provinces
in terms of our restrictions but still more generous than a number of other
provinces, because I think
So there is not always consistency across
the system, but I know my honourable friend probably has as good a press‑clipping
file as I do, probably better, but I know that the Ontario ministry right now
is considering, because they do insure psychoanalysis there and they are
considering deinsurance, not just simply clarifying that we are not paying for
it in Manitoba as we did last year, but they are looking at tattoo removal and
some other procedures.
So every plan is doing their investigation
right now, and wherever I can I would be pleased to provide my honourable
friend from The Maples (Mr. Cheema) and my honourable friend from
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I would like the record to show that the
Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) for
An Honourable Member: In
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: In Ontario, sure, which he suggested that
Ontario was looking at the same step that was undertaken in Manitoba last year,
a step that the minister was adamantly described in terms that was not a move
of deinsurance. So I think the agenda is
clear, the record should indicate that the minister has finally admitted that
that was deinsurance, and what we are talking about with all of these things is
deinsurance, and I think the debate should stay on whether it is good, bad or indifferent.
Let me ask a question relating to both the
ties into deinsurance of medical services and this whole area of Health
Promotion, Protection and Disease Prevention, and that is the‑‑and
I will use another "de" word that the minister will not like‑‑and
that is the delisting of certain drugs under Pharmacare for people who have
either very serious chronic illnesses or terminal diseases, and ask the
minister for the complete list of drugs that have been removed from Pharmacare
coverage that were previously covered under the provision and entitled from the
Department of Health and Welfare federally under the emergency drug release
program? I am not sure I have got all
those words correct, but I think the minister knows what I mean and I am
wondering if he could give us the complete list of drugs impacted by that Order‑in‑Council
of the end of 1991.
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know my honourable
friend just loves to have what she perceives to be little victories. She gets
so few of them. But when I described
Ontario, I said Ontario is considering deinsurance of psychoanalysis because in
Ontario it is an insured service right now, contrary to the fact that we
clarified the fact that it was not an insured service in Manitoba.
My honourable friend, I realize she likes
these little victories, but I guess maybe if "deinsurance" is what my
honourable friend wants to call things, that is fine because it has happened
for 20 years in
That is why Western Clinic started up;
that is why Western Clinic operates and has operated for about seven or eight
years to do plastic surgery that was insured until about '83, and it was
deinsured in '83. These things happen
because all of us have to assure the medical necessity. That is the kind of debate that I will get on
with my honourable friend, any stage of the way.
Now, let me just see what I have got here;
1991, here we are. By golly, this is
signed. Order‑in‑Council No.
317, on the matters of state‑‑I can read it? The regulations set out in Schedule A be
approved, dated 20 March 1991, and the regulation was to do with: "A personal care home may make an
authorized charge to an insured person of $23.25 per day effective May 1, 1991,
$23.80 per day effective August 1, 1991, $24.35 per day effective November 1,
1991, and $24.90 per day effective February 1, 1992."
So that Order‑in‑Council was
passed 20 March 1991. That is the year
where the per diem increase was greater than before because of the GST rebate,
because we factored in the GST rebate into our per diem. So I do not know why that would not have been
available because normally these are always tabled.
Then, of course, the Order‑in‑Council
337, this year, April 8, 1992: my
honourable friend has that one. Now, I
think my honourable friend, though, pointed out where‑‑oh, no,
no. You see, I did not realize what my
honourable friend was referring to.
My honourable friend was referring to
Manitoba Health Services Insurance regulation, Manitoba Regulation
506/88R. That is the regulation which
empowers the levying of the per diems, I believe, but is not the actual
regulation which sets the rates per year.
So I think that is where the confusion
came in. It is an annual thing that we
do and we attempt to do it in March‑April, effective May 1, one month
after the quarterly pension increase. For 1991, it was Order‑in‑Council
No. 317. I will give my honourable
friend this copy because I do not need it anymore.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I would like to thank the minister for that
information. That certainly helps
clarify, for me, the process around per diem rates for personal care homes.
Okay, now, I was just going to reference
the second issue I had raised for the minister, if the minister could provide
us with a list of the drugs that are now no longer covered as a result of the
change in the December 31, or December something, 1991, Order‑in‑Council
which basically removed coverage of drugs previously covered under the
Emergency Release Program out of Ottawa.
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will have that
information, for sure, when we get into the Pharmacare line. If I can have it before that, I will.
*
(1530)
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: The minister knows my concern with respect
particularly to clarythromycin. I am
just wondering if the minister can give us any more information now around the
number of people who are using and need clarythromycin in Manitoba, what the
savings will be for this government by not covering it under Pharmacare, and if
there is any reconsideration at all with the committee that the minister has
referenced in the past around setting of rates and regulations under the
Pharmacare program to reinstate clarythromycin.
Mr. Orchard: We know of one individual who currently was
receiving the clarythromycin as a benefit under the Pharmacare program, but I
am not aware of whether there is more than one.
I know of one. That individual
has communicated directly with my office.
Here is the issue. I have explained this time and time again but‑‑the
issue is not this individual's circumstance.
The issue is the principle behind drug companies, and these are the name
brand manufacturers. They go through a
process of clinical trials, et cetera, and after the drug is approved in
effectiveness, it is safe, et cetera, they apply for a notice of compliance
which then through federal Food and Drug certifies that the drug is eligible
for use, that it is safe, that it meets medical needs. It is at that stage of the game that
governments, and I will just deal with this government, makes the decision as
to whether to include it as a pharmaceutical for which Pharmacare coverage is
available.
The issue has been in the past that until
notice of compliance had been achieved, the name brand manufacturers would
continue to make the pharmaceutical available free of charge until the notice
of compliance came in and they start charging for it.
It is my understanding that, historically,
that has always been sort of the practice pattern of the drug companies,
because bear in mind that, with the exception of Canada, the world has offered
them, what is it, 15 years or 20 years patent protection on new pharmaceutical
releases, so to introduce the drug, it was not a major financial inhibition to
these companies to provide it free of charge to those people who were, say, on
the clinical trials, found to be benefitting from it, and for a chronic disease
would continue the provision until it was insured.
That changed with the disease AIDS. AIDS, being a terminal disease, there being a
lot of compassion around AIDS and the utilization of AZT as a drug of treatment
for AIDS, there was a significant demand for that because many people suffering
from AIDS, from the final stages of HIV infection, were being prescribed the
drug. The manufacturer charged for the
drug and depending on where in
This year, when we passed our regulation
effective January 1 for the yearly changes to the Pharmacare program of
eligible and drugs that were taken off the eligibility list for a number of
reasons‑‑this process, I reiterate to you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson,
is undertaken by the pharmacy review committee; in other words, pharmacists on
a volunteer basis review the list and suggest additions and deletions, et
cetera. But the policy was established
this year that until a notice of compliance has been granted to the new drug,
we would not cover that new drug under the Pharmacare program.
There were a number of those drugs
currently being prescribed, and I cannot tell my honourable friend how many,
but clarythromycin was one that before the notice of compliance, compassionate
grounds again in terms of the individual suffering from AIDS, we did pick up
the cost of that drug.
We changed the policy because we are on a
wave of a significant number of new drugs.
There is concurrence across Canada for people operating similar drug
plans that we should try to consistently make the decision not to pay for a
pharmaceutical until the notice of compliance has been granted, the reason
being that with a plethora of new drugs coming in, some of them at $5 and $6
and $7 and $10 and $18 and $25 per tablet, we will be overwhelmed with costs
for drugs for which there is no notice of compliance and for which the
tradition has been that the supplier, the manufacturer, would supply them free
of charge until that was granted.
This change of policy is a difficult one
for this individual. I will fully admit
that. I have every compassion for him,
but the principle is what we are trying to establish so that the brand name
manufacturers, the multinationals in the pharmaceutical business know the rules
of the game hopefully right across Canada so that they will not start using the
compassion that all of us have for individuals suffering from chronic disease
to begin charging for a pharmaceutical for which they are going to have 15 and
20 years of exclusive patent protection and substantial profits therefrom
before the notice of compliance comes through.
It was the principle that I think was very
appropriate that we established. That
principle has not been applied in the past 15, 18 years since Pharmacare came
in because the issue had not emerged, and the potential for numbers of new
pharmaceuticals for which that policy would have application would not seem to
be a problem. It was not a problem until
AZT and AIDS, and that was the watershed pharmaceutical, the watershed disease
condition.
We intend to be firm on this because we
believe that the name brand manufacturer can provide that pharmaceutical, which
costs, I am told, from $180 to $360 per month, free of charge until notice of
compliance comes in later on this year.
No doubt we are going to have a wrestling match with the company in
between.
My honourable friend will counter and say,
well, just for this one case, make the exception. I agree.
I have every compassion to want to do that, but the difficulty in doing
that is, if you make a policy decision and then the first time that is
questioned because of compassionate grounds and you back away from it, no name
brand manufacturer is going to take you seriously. If they see that government is going to cave
in to the political pressure put on them by opposition parties, they are not
going to supply them free of charge as, I submit, they should until their
notice of compliance comes in.
I accept my honourable friend's concern
over this individual, this condition and this drug, but I simply caution my
honourable friend, it is the principle that we have to adhere to because I do
not want to be using taxpayer dollars to fatten the bank accounts of brand name
pharmaceutical manufacturers in advance of the granting of notice of compliance
for which they will have 15 and plus years of exclusive supply at substantial
profit of that pharmaceutical.
It is the principle that I am enunciating,
and I think it is well founded. I think
my honourable friend, were she in government, would never change that
principle.
*
(1540)
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I am not at all disagreeing with the principle
that the minister enunciates, but the fact of the matter is that with respect
to this one drug, and there may be others, I do not know, with respect to
clarythromycin, we are dealing with a drug that was never provided free by the
company, Abbott Drugs, that this government was paying for until the change by
Order‑in‑Council, so it had been covered. So in fact what we are dealing with is a
change in practice, a change in policy.
I think that constitutes unique circumstances that require a different
approach. Thirdly, it is a drug that had
been approved through the emergency drug release program from
We are not talking about every new drug
that comes on the market. We are talking
about drugs that have gone through some process, some steps to prove effectiveness. I would assume
I would ask the minister on the basis of
those three criteria or those three developments that clarythromycin was never
provided free, period; that the government had in fact been paying for this
drug; and, three, that some effectiveness had been demonstrated and therefore
it had been released under the emergency release program through
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, all of those
circumstances were known around this particular pharmaceutical and will be the
circumstances around future ones. Again,
the emergency release status by the federal government was narrowed to AIDS, a
terminal disease. Where the thought
patterns are, I think I can say this is what the thought pattern is, that
because it is a terminal disease, there is no cure for AIDS, that you provide
drugs on an emergency release basis, because how can you make the person's
medical condition worse? I mean, it is a
terminal condition. That is the whole genesis of this issue where it started
with AZT.
Now in this case, my understanding is that
the expectation is that clarythromycin will be granted a notice of compliance
later this year. It is not as if it is
not in the very near future to be there.
AZT does not enjoy that same kind of status, and we continue to pay AZT,
but clarythromycin has a notice of compliance coming up. Now, if we use my honourable friend's
argument, I want to tell you that you will be in the same argument with
chemotherapy, new chemotherapy pharmaceuticals for terminally ill people
suffering from cancer. You will have the
same compassionate argument.
The principle then becomes, sir, that do
you, because you have a terminal condition and compassion for the individual,
compromise a policy whereby you have the taxpayers pick up the costs before
notice of compliance to very, very wealthy multinationals. Now I am no doggone socialist, but I cannot
understand somebody from the New Democratic Party wanting to have the taxpayers
bail out and provide the compassion of the taxpayers to the major name brand
pharmaceutical manufacturers who are using human suffering to charge for drugs
before notice of compliance is there.
My stand is that those multinationals have
sufficient resources when notice of compliance is in place. They have 15 years of unbelievable profits
from these new releases. The least they
can do in human compassion is have those drugs supplied free of charge to
appropriate recipients until notice of compliance comes in, and I intend to be
firm on that.
I know my honourable friend, her heart is
in the right place, but, by golly, I cannot understand the philosophical
attachment which appears to be emanating from that of wanting to replace
taxpayer compassion with multinational compassion. I mean, they have more money than the
government of
I realize the circumstance my honourable
friend puts on these preconditions, but I will tell you, you are going to make the
same argument for any number of drugs.
When you make that argument on new released drugs, just remember you are
arguing to enhance the financial position of multinational pharmaceutical name
brand manufacturers, and you are asking the taxpayers of Manitoba who I submit
will offer from time to time that they pay quite enough taxes for quite few
enough services, you are asking them to bail out multinationals. That is not a policy that I agree to.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think the minister
is missing some of the points that I have been trying to raise around this
issue. In my mind, if the government had
been paying for coverage of certain drugs, where there was definite
effectiveness and some clinical tests to prove help in these cases, then I
think it is only a question of fairness and justice and decency for the
government to continue providing coverage for those drugs.
I am not arguing that for all the new
drugs coming out that the minister not put in place some mechanism to acknowledge
the fact that there are so many new drugs coming out, and that we cannot afford
to simply, every time a company comes along and suggests it is effective in the
case of a terminal disease, to cover it, but we are talking about some drugs, I
presume, I do not know how many, some drugs that the government had been
covering, where there was some effectiveness and some demonstrated clinical
benefit. Clarythromycin clearly falls in
that category.
So it is not a question of supporting drug
companies, and it is not a question of favouring multinational corporations or
the profit margins of multinational drug companies. It is a question‑‑in fact, what
we are saying is we do not believe that terminal patients, people dying from
AIDS or cancer or any other disease, should be charity cases of multinational
drug companies, that in fact the government has a role to play there in
ensuring that they live out their lives with some decency and dignity.
Rather than pursue the argument, let me
just simply perhaps ask if I think we can deal with this issue on a more
intelligent basis. If the minister is
willing to provide the list of drugs that had been previously covered under
Pharmacare, that are now not covered under Pharmacare because of that change in
regulation, and if the minister could provide the list with as much information
as he can about those drugs, for example, perhaps the number of people covered,
if possible, or the amount of money expended before the change was made, I
think that would help us put this all in some context and debate it on a more
reasoned basis.
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I indicated to my
honourable friend that I would attempt to provide that as soon as possible, and
for certain we will have it by the time we get to the Pharmacare line.
My honourable friend does not have a
monopoly on compassion. Let me tell you that when you deal with the major
business entities that develop name‑brand drugs, you are dealing with
people who are in the profit‑making business, and they do very, very well
at it. My honourable friend is allying
herself on the basis of one individual circumstance by saying that, you know,
government should give this consideration.
Well, that is a compassionate argument,
but in doing that you are opening yourself to allowing multinationals in the
development of drugs with lifesaving or quality of life mitigating qualities
for terminally ill individuals, be it AIDS today or cancer tomorrow or some
other terminal disease, you are saying to them, Manitoba is wide open to
provide this drug and the NDP in opposition, on a compassionate basis, will
insist government pay for it. This is a
lucrative market, this
I say to you that despite the obvious
concern all of us have about enhancing the quality of life of any individual
suffering from terminal illness, we have obligations also to assure that the
policies we put in place force some of that compassion on those who also can
afford it, i.e., the brand name pharmaceutical manufacturers. This would not compromise the bottom line of
Abbott Laboratories one iota. I mean
this would not do anything to affect their international performance profit‑wise. I do not know what their cost of
manufacturing clarythromycin is, but if the retail is $180, it could be $10.
*
(1550)
I mean that is what we are talking about,
and until that receives a notice of compliance, I have to say to you that as
difficult as it is when you introduce that principle, because you are going to
catch some people mainstream, if you bow to the compassionate argument on that
one, you do not stand a hope in staying your ground and making multinationals
stop the policy that they appear to be going on of charging for these drugs
prior to notice of compliance.
I simply say to my honourable friend, she
has no monopoly on compassion, but I suggest to you that I do not have any
compassion for multinational pharmaceutical manufacturers in wanting the
taxpayers of
I do not think that my honourable friend‑‑and
I will just say this straight out‑‑if government was to change
tomorrow, I think the New Democrats would agree with this policy and stick to
their guns and try to get the money out of Abbott Laboratories in this case
rather than the taxpayers of
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not believe for
one moment that a New Democratic Party government today would‑‑without
having first made that arrangement with a company like Abbott drug company for
providing that drug free‑‑have cut people off, people dying with
AIDS, would have cut people off a drug that has clearly made a difference in their
lives.
This is not a question of having a
monopoly on human compassion. It is a
question of a policy that was in place and was benefitting some people and
making a difference.
I am suggesting to the minister that it
would only make sense from a policy point of view, and from a fairness point of
view, to say, okay, here is the new policy.
From here on in, this is how it is going to work, but we are not going
to go back in time and cut off people who have received some benefit from a
particular drug and who now may not be able to receive that benefit.
Let me ask, I guess we are on, as part of
Health Promotion, Protection, and Disease Prevention, the whole area of AIDS,
and the minister has, I believe, an advisory committee on AIDS, if he could
provide us with the names of that committee and tell us a bit about what advice
he is getting generally on the whole area of AIDS and what activities are
underway.
Mr. Orchard: The chair of the committee is Mr. Bill
Gardner, Jr. We have as members of the
committee Dr. Chapman‑Smith, Ms. Joan Anderton, Mr. Fabian, Mr. Peel, Ms.
Bodner, Mr. Landry, Ms. Lorraine Thompson and Rev. Ian MacDonald.
I am not certain but I think there is a
new individual on the committee who attended her first meeting last week. There is one more individual on the
committee, and I am lost for the name right now.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Could the minister indicate how often the
committee meets and what the general purpose of the committee is, what kind of
information or advice the minister has requested, and what the plans are in the
future for the committee?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, yes, the committee
meets, I think, bimonthly. I forgot, the
secretary to the committee is Pat Matusko from Health.
Basically, the committee is reviewing AIDS
and the relevant reports, research and information that is available from other
provinces, other jurisdictions, other countries, to sort of be a window on the
AIDS situation nationally and internationally and to provide guidance to government
in terms of where we can change or undertake different approaches in work with
staff. Most of the thoughts of the
committee are implemented as matter of, I suppose, policy or activity by staff,
and they are not the kind of thing‑‑although maybe we should‑‑they
are not the kind of recommendations, or they are not the kind of suggestions
that lead to public announcement around the suggestions they make.
The biggest strength, I think, in terms of
the AIDS Committee, is in its diversity of membership. We have both rural and urban people on the
committee, and we have people from a diversity of approach to the AIDS
issue. Joan Anderton, of course, is the
chief public health nurse for the City of
I think with our approach to AIDS we are
probably positioned as well, with as good advice as any province, for trying to
manage information around and programs dedicated to AIDS. We have not undertaken an advertising program
now for over‑‑two years, I guess, was the last one. That advertising program was successful, but
it was general, and what we have attempted to do, I think it is fair to say,
over the last two years is target some of our information and some of our program
initiatives to high‑risk groups.
We think that is probably a more important use of scarce resource than
the across‑the‑board television‑radio advertising that we
undertook in the last major advertising campaign.
I will let my honourable friend ask
questions.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I just have one more before‑‑I
know that the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema) would like to ask some
questions. I just want to comment
really.
I believe the other person that the
minister was trying to think of in terms of the committee is Lara Laramee, if I
am not mistaken, an aboriginal woman who I know quite well. I think she has an excellent
contribution. I would just end at this
point by saying that I hope that the minister uses this committee on an active
basis and addresses the growing and serious nature of this whole issue of AIDS.
Mr. Orchard: I take my honourable friend's advice
seriously, and the individual identified, that is correct. Her first meeting was the most recent one
that the committee met, and the chairman indicated to me that he is very
enthused, that he believes that she is going to be a very, very good member on
the committee because she is bringing a unique perspective of knowledge. Also, the aboriginal community is one of the
target areas. We have participated in a
conference in The Pas. So we have valued
in the past, and we will value the advice of this individual.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was listening to some
extent to the comment about the AIDS campaign, and so I want to take care of
some of the questions and things which were done in the last year of the
campaign has been quite successful. I
just want not to repeat those things that the member for
*
(1600)
My question here is on page 83 of the
book, that the External Agencies' funding was reduced by $1,000. Can the minister tell us why that funding was
decreased and in what areas the funding was reduced?
Mr. Orchard: We reduced our funding commitment to funded
agencies this year by a total of $207,000 year over year. We reduced our funding by $207,000 year over
year. I will give you the areas where we
have reduced, rather than taking across‑the‑board slight reduction,
we targeted our reductions. They are arguable naturally as to whether they are
appropriate, but we reduced our annual contribution to the Manitoba Society for
Seniors by $10,000.
We reduced our provincial contribution to
the Canadian Council on Smoking and Health by $4,400. We reduced a contribution to the Winnipeg
School Division No. 1 by $45,000. We reduced our support grant to the Manitoba
Association for Childbirth and Family Education by $23,500. We reduced our grant support to St. John
Ambulance Council by $35,300. We reduced
our‑‑okay, we did not reduce, we had a two‑year funding
commitment in conjunction with the City of Winnipeg Health Department for
Street LINKS. That was $100,000 per
year. The funding for that will
terminate mid‑year, I think August.
The Canadian Diabetes Association is reduced by $1,200 in terms of
support that we have given them in the past.
The largest decrease is our decision to
not continue funding in conjunction with City of
Recently we have received a report from
the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg.
Their observation, and they made this observation I guess 10 or 12 years
ago to government, that we are not providing a consistent approach in
government to services to highly at‑risk kids, street kids in
particular. The Social Planning Council
made the observation, they made it to the previous administration and it is
legitimate, that, for instance, an organization will commence a project and
they will seek start‑up funding, let us say, from Winnipeg Foundation or
the United Way or maybe Core Area Initiative or the City of Winnipeg or maybe
directly from the provincial government or the federal government. It is temporary funding. The project gets underway, the project may or
may not be a valuable one or a good one because there has been no evaluation
generally in the past attached to some of these initiatives.
The point the Social Planning Council
makes is that some of the programs that were good were terminated because no
one picked up the funding after the temporary introduction of funding. I will tell you this government is perplexed
with that, because again‑‑and we are part of it this year with a
two‑year funding commitment with the City of Winnipeg on Street
LINKS. We are discontinuing that
funding. Again, it is a stop‑and‑start
kind of a program.
The member for
We have identified‑‑is it 97
agencies in the core area?‑‑delivering in excess of 150‑some
programs with a whole range of funding from different ministries in the
provincial government, federal government, the Core Area Initiative, funding of
which is terminating, from Winnipeg Foundation, United Way. I mean, there is a whole plethora of sources
of funding for a whole series of programs in the core area.
I find that frustrating, because I tend to
be‑‑maybe pragmatic is the word, I do not know; but I ask myself,
do we need 90‑plus agencies delivering often what can be certainly, to a
degree, unique programming, but certainly often cases some parallel program
delivery? Government does not have a
handle on that. This is not a new
phenomenon; this has been going on‑‑every government has probably
been challenged with this kind of a circumstance.
With the Street LINKS, and particularly
with the high‑risk, sex‑trade youth who are involved with this, my
sense of it‑‑and I have discussed this with the chairman of the
AIDS committee‑‑is to turn over to them this issue, based on the
Social Planning Council's observation and try to narrow it, because you are not
going to deal with the whole range of programs provided to youth and children
from the agencies‑‑but to try to narrow their focus to assess what
other agencies may well be providing some service. We are funding POWER through
So we have to get our minds around the
global funding. I submit that, if we
take and develop an inventory of how much funding is going into those areas
through 90‑plus organizations, from three levels of government, volunteer
fundraising, some other free‑standing organizations, I do not think we
will come to the conclusion that resource is the problem. Utilization of resource and co‑ordination
of resource are the problems.
I talked over that challenge with the
chairman of the AIDS Advisory Committee and gave him the background. Again, as I mentioned to my honourable friend
from
I would welcome a recommendation like
that, because I think you can see potentially a significant advantage to the
target recipient. If we are funding
several administrations in several different organizations, that money is not
reaching the individual in need. In
general, we recognize the difficulty this curtailment of support to Street
LINKS is going to cause, but that it is not the end of the issue is what I am
saying. It is a funding issue that we
have made a decision on today, but the program and the approach to the policy
is very much in the development stage, I think it is fair to say.
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Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister knows that
I have been advocating for the evaluation process as of '88, and I think it is
very essential that you do not have the services supplied by four different
individual organizations for the same purpose.
First of all, they are competing for the same dollar, and, secondly,
there is disorganization at certain levels. Basically, whether clients get the
services, that still remains unknown.
That is why I have difficulty sometimes
understanding why sometimes the City of
I was just saying that similar situations
arise when people are getting funding from three sources. When the sources run out, then they have no
place to go, because somebody will say, go to person A or B or C. By that time it is too late, and that is the
example with the Mount Carmel Clinic, the cross‑cultural unit.
The program was started initially on a
voluntary basis. They did a good job,
they were saving money, they got the funding on the basis from the Core Area
program. Now the program is in place,
but right now they do not have a funding process. It is very frustrating for them, but
certainly because they raised the expectation of the community, they have put
their own family‑structure based on what kind of jobs they are going to
have, it is very complicated for them.
It is difficult for the governments,
because you do not have a clear‑cut policy in terms of whether you fund
any program. There should be clear‑cut guidelines on what is going to
happen and who is going to do it in one or two or three years. There has to be some permanency and ongoing
evaluation.
That had been lacking. That is why it is so tragic to see that we
are spending so much money, but there is so much disorganization. When we see cuts here and there, it gives us
and other people the wrong impression that something is going to fall apart,
but in essence that may or may not be true.
Once you examine the whole thing, you come to a conclusion that probably
that should have been done from Day One so that the co‑ordination is
taking place.
That is why when I look at the Orders‑in‑Council
and how the external agencies are getting funding, I always raise the issue in
my own mind, is there anybody co‑ordinating all the funding through the
various departments, at what level the funding is being provided, what services
they are providing, what is the outcome and, ultimately, how many actual
dollars are being spent in the service delivery? Is it simply to put in an office? I am just giving a hypothetical example.
I think we have to make sure the services
are delivered to the needy patients and the other people who will need the
services. I would like to know whether
we have a process in the Department of Health.
Who is taking care of those things?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am going to shock my
staff. Sue Hicks and Tammy Mattern were
supposed to do this for me two years ago, and they did not deliver. I say that in jest.
This issue is one that I have talked to
Sue Hicks about because, I mean, I share a frustration. Every time one of these organizations has
their funding run out from United Way or wherever, they end up on the
government's doorstep, often mine, and I am justifying not giving funding to
something I have never funded before.
I cannot respond as to the effectiveness,
to the relative placement of how this organization, the service they are
providing is different or parallels or is the same as another organization.
So I say to my honourable friend that we
are attempting to understand, because within government we know of
organizations that access funding from two to three, maybe even four different
ministries. All of us get sort of played
one against the other, I think it is fair to say.
It is a task which I would like to have
completed but, at the same time, we have staff very much committed to delivery
of program and service and reform of the health care system, and we have not
been able, and I say this quite honestly, to dedicate the time to get around
that issue as government.
Our staff, our senior management are all
committed to the ongoing programming and the changes to programming that we are
proposing, and we have not put that kind of commitment.
I tell my honourable friend though that we
hope to have some greater sense around it by this fall, because I think we are going
to advance the opportunity to try to do that government inventory of funding
and then as much as possible to extend that to the funding sources from other
levels of government and other sources like United Way or Winnipeg Foundation,
et cetera.
Hopefully, we will be able to come around
the program and funding issue in a much more co‑ordinated approach. My honourable friend mentioned the key word
of evaluation. I mean, we went through
quite a period of time because POWER's funding essentially disappeared
approximately a year ago, I guess, or a little better, and we were asked
immediately to pick up the funding. We
declined until we could put in a process with the delivery organization of
evaluation so that we would be able to clearly demonstrate that those were
dollars reasonably well spent.
We have got that process, we think, in
place now, and that ought to be able to guide us at the end of the funding
period of time to tell us whether this program is indeed working, delivering
effective service delivery or change of lifestyle and other indicators in
there, and that it is, in fact, a good investment to contain costs in the
health care system.
So my honourable friend is bang on when he
identifies this as a problem. I will
openly admit it has not been an area that we have been able to easily get a
handle on and put some more focus to it, but I simply say to my honourable
friend that is a situation that is not going to exist indefinitely. We are going to try to get our minds around
this, as government, over the summer period of time.
Mr. Cheema: The reason I am raising it again, I think that
this year it is going to be even more important than before because with the
health care reform when the patients are going to be more in their community,
all these groups are going to come for a variety of services and a variety of
proposals. So I think there has to be
clear‑cut guidelines how those services are going to be provided so that
duplication of services does not take place and, above all, that there are
clear guidelines and clear principles stated by the government to provide those
services.
Then I think that should depend upon the
geographic area and also the type of clientele they have and how they are going
to communicate with the local professionals.
If each and every organization goes their own way, we are not going to
be successful. It is going to be total
chaos and failure, then one can blame each other. As long as the department would have clear
guidelines, then you can ask them to be responsible.
I am not saying they are not responsible,
because they do not have the right information or they do not know what else is
going on in the other parts of the community or how these changes are going to
come. So it is so very essential that we
have a good look at the whole process and put it into place. For the opposition it is a good issue.
When you raise an issue in the House, they
are cutting the external agencies. I did
raise the question, and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said, ask the minister when he
comes back. When you look at these
numbers only, it will look very bad that the public health policies are not
being given the right kind of dollar figures, but when you look at the whole
figure, then you come to a different conclusion.
So many things are wrong in the process it
is difficult to make a right judgment.
So I would like the minister to set up clearer guidelines and make
sure. That is also, as I said, part of
the public education campaign, because when you are educating this many individuals
about the policy of this government, this will help us in the long run because
they are the ones that are going to either make or break the system.
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Mr. Orchard: I accept my honourable friend's advice on that
because this is an area once again that is not narrowed only to Health. I mean, we cross departments in this
government with the support of some of these agencies and some of the groups.
You know, I should not introduce a new
topic, but I will. My honourable friend
and I have debated the issue of speech language pathology. Well, I know there are needs that are going
unmet for preschool children, and at the same time, our school system has a
significantly higher ability to deliver services starting at Kindergarten and
on. Logic would drive you to using that
resource with a much earlier intervention like we are doing with
audiology. But I have to tell you that
is a kind of an interesting debate to get around, because not only are we just
dealing department to department in government, but we are dealing with school
divisions as funded agencies and by hospitals as funded agencies.
You almost think some days that it is an
impossible issue to do what is right, because I think clearly the resource that
we are spending in that area, as I mentioned, speech language pathology, could
achieve a significantly increased benefit if we had the ability to, magically,
if you will, refocus it to the appropriate need. But that requires a heck of a lot of internal
discussion, and quite frankly, the time schedule and the workload of government
and cabinet disallows enough opportunity for that kind of Healthy Public Policy
type thinking.
That will always be with government
because we are always dealing with yesterday's issue, it seems, and do not have
the luxury from time to time of doing the advanced thinking that we need to do.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister find
out for us the amount per capita we spend on external agencies funding in
Mr. Orchard: You mean as the ministry of Health?
Mr. Cheema: Yes, as a ministry.
Mr. Orchard: All I can do is indicate that our spending
projections are just a little over $10.5 million for this year. I cannot give
you a relative placement because of how that compares to other provinces
because other provinces might not fund some of the organizations we fund, and
might fund others. [interjection]
Yes, that is right, too. My ADM reminds
me that it might be a different department that would fund certain programs in
other provinces. So I do not know how‑‑like,
if I knew what my honourable friend was getting to, I might be able to help him
with the answer.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the reason I ask this
question is because I think ultimately, when the community component is going
to come into Manitoba in a major form, then we want to compare to the rest of
the country how we are spending our money, as compared to Ontario, Saskatchewan
or British Columbia. This is going to be
part of the community component. In essence, the external agency will play a
good role. So I think it would be a good
idea for the agencies also to know how much money they are getting as compared
to the other provinces, and for us to know how much money we are giving on a
per capita basis on a national average.
That is why I was raising those issues, to get the information.
(Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Chairperson,
in the Chair)
Mr. Orchard: Okay, and you know what? I think that is almost an impossible task, I
will say to my honourable friend, because I have been reminded that these are
agencies, freestanding agencies that we fund for a whole range of service
provision including research. Okay?
But when we move to Continuing Care we
have got a several million dollar contract with an outside agency, VON, that
may not be replicated, for instance, in other provinces and very much that is a
community‑base support service.
So, I do not think‑‑like, I
will tell my honourable friend, I think I would have trouble having staff pull
together all of our outside agency funding, and I think it would be a near
impossible task to try to put that into context of comparability to other
provinces. I just do not think it could
be done.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, that is fine, I
was just trying to get information. I
think eventually, we may need that in the long run to make sure that even
though each and every province may have the different names, but still the
funding goes through external agencies, either through the Department of Health
or Community Services or Family Services or Education. But still, the money is
given to the agencies who do some of the work.
My next question is in terms of the cross‑cultural
unit at Mount Carmel Clinic, and I just want to know that because the minister
has had about two and a half months or so.
When the questions were raised then by the member for Point Douglas (Mr.
Hickes) about the issue of funding, and I think, I am not sure whether I wrote
the letter to the minister or not, but I also met with some of the officials
from there, the person who is delivering the services, and they were hoping
that some funding will come.
We discussed why they are in trouble,
because of so many procedures and so many pitfalls in the system. The question here now is whether there is
going to be any possibility of getting any funding from the provincial
government, especially when the deputy minister of Mental Health Services has
met with the organization, and I think they had a good look at the whole
program. They were, as far as I know,
quite impressed with how cost efficient this program is. So I would like to know whether any progress
has been made on this particular issue.
Mr. Orchard: No, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am unable
to report any progress. I think that,
when the issue came up, we had about four or five weeks of notice, and it was
after the Estimates process. We had
never supported that project before. I think most of their funding‑‑I
cannot even recall from memory where‑‑
An Honourable Member: Core Area.
Mr. Orchard: It was Core Area? Yes.
The funding was Core Area, and we could not fit that into this year's
funding commitment. I think it is fair
to say that we have an ongoing interest, but whether we can accede or comply
with the funding request‑‑I would have to be very direct with my
honourable friend and say, we cannot right now.
Now whether that is precluded into the future‑‑I am not
closing the door, but, again, it gets us into the issue of effective resource
utilization.
You might recall in terms of other
language issues, and I have had my Multicultural Health Advisory Committee
coming around the issue of the Planned Parenthood program versus‑‑again
inheriting that one, basically if you will.
If the value of the program in the context of resources, et cetera, if
the right ingredients come together, certainly we would consider that program,
but I cannot make any commitment as to whether it would be a successful
recipient of funding in the near future.
I simply cannot make that commitment.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would like the
minister to know that, as far as I have the information, this program is the
only one which provides services in many languages, and an inner‑city
program specifically dealing with cross‑cultural mental health
issues. If the minister would have
somebody to read the proposal and read the various evaluations they have done,
and the number of clients they have served, and the number of volunteer
organizations that help‑‑and that goes with all the organizations;
I am not saying this one is more special than the others. But this may fit into‑‑I should
not say "may"‑‑this will probably fit into the community
component of Manitoba Health Services, and specifically in terms of when the
minister's deputy minister, Mr. Reg Toews, has shown great interest in this
organization.
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So I would again encourage the minister to
take some personal interest and see if that would be the case at least sometime
this year, or he could try to maybe visit the clinic and see the number of
clients they are serving. Even if you
say, for example, take 20 clients a week‑‑that is a minimum number‑‑if
you multiply it by $16, that is about $320.
So $320 per week for four weeks is about $1,200. That is the money they are even saving in a
basic primary health care service. If
you multiply it by 12 months, it is a lot of money, and by that time they will
get an interpreter. If they go to a
doctor's office, to a hospital, it will cost them more money, no question.
Money is already being saved, but it is a
difficult circumstance for them to prove to their government in real dollars,
because the services they provide‑‑if I was seeing them or some
other doctor was seeing them in their office, we would be charging for 8, 5 or
9 number, that is at least minimum $15.80 or $15.75. So they are subsidizing services, no question
about that, especially in an area which has a population of various ethnic
groups and new Canadians, the refugee program, and the people who have taken
the pain to train themselves, get the training.
I think it will send a positive message within the very limited number
of dollars to get the best possible services.
I think the minister's multicultural
advisory committee may have its own views, but I think sometimes the committee
may not look at each and every proposal if it does not suit their own political
philosophy or their own way of thinking.
So I would say that I would rather have the Assistant Deputy Minister of
Mental Health Services look at this proposal, rather than the special
multicultural committee which has many other issues to have a look at.
So I think that this is a very valid
proposal from their point of view, cost efficient. In a way, many organizations are helping, but
there has to be some principle or guidelines attached. We would not like to have the money thrown
away. It would just have to be how much
money will be given so that next year there will not be an extra bill attached,
or the third year, an extra bill attached.
Those things have to be clarified from Day One, so that no government
gets into a situation where every year they have to fund an extra way.
I think that is a good issue, and it is a
good issue for the minister because that is what he actually wants. He wants people to deliver services from
their own point of view, try to minimize some of the cost, not only cost in the
medical services, social services. There
is a lot of cost. If they end up using
the counselling from other sources, it is costing government money anyway. So $58,000 they were asking, and if the
government thinks that they are going to give them less, so be it, but there
should be some point of starting a positive relationship with those other
organizations, and I am trying to continue to build their case because I have
seen the proposal. When I saw the
number, it was very impressive.
The people have been working very hard, and
they did not want to make it a political issue.
They were the first ones to come to me, and I discussed with them, I
said, give me a chance to explain to the minister. Then I talked to the member for Point Douglas
(Mr. Hickes) also and I gave him whatever information I had, and then he
discussed with them, and he raised the issue in a very positive way.
So I hope that the minister would take
those things into consideration and ask his Assistant Deputy Minister, Mr.
Toews, to have a good look at the issue and not only just rely upon the medical
advisory committee, which has done good work, but they may have a lot of other
things to do. So rather than leaving it
at the end, I would like to see some positive statement, and that will send a
good signal from the minister's point of view.
Mr. Orchard: I always accept my honourable friend's good
advice.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Let me just ask a couple of follow‑up
questions on this particular program. In
the House, when questioned, the minister has suggested that this is the whole‑‑[interjection] and I am not trying, just
to the member for The Maples, I am not trying to get in on this so I can say
that we raised it first, nyah nyah nyah.
I think it is important that it be raised, period. I appreciate the efforts for the member for
The Maples on this program in bringing it to the attention of the government.
I wanted to raise some questions around
the minister's response in the House, where he seemed to indicate that this
kind of program fell more in the area of immigration than it did in health
care. He indicated that he would be
pursuing funding with the federal government because and I quote: " . . . as part of immigration policy, I
believe there could well be a joint role that we could consider."
I would like to ask the minister if he
does not see this first and foremost as a health initiative, as a mental health
program that is attempting to meet the needs of our multicultural communities?
Mr. Orchard: Yes.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: That is encouraging. The minister says, yes. I am glad to see that he sees it as a health
problem. I would ask in that context
then: At what point is the minister
looking at addressing the funding requirements for this program? What kind of
information does he need? How does it
fit into the overall community‑based mental health reform initiative of
this government?
Mr. Orchard: Well, I cannot answer the latter. My suspicion would be that it is probably
appropriate. Whether it is the next best
dollar spent in the community, I cannot answer that, because that kind of
relative evaluation has not been done.
Whether there are comparable programs offered by other funded agencies
that could continue with this service, I cannot answer that either.
The justification, I mean, this is just
another $58,000. I assure my honourable
friend that in the regular process of developing Estimates, we have many just‑another‑$58,000
requests. They come in and are given due
consideration through the Estimates process.
Where we can accede to those requests, we do so. I just want to remind my honourable friend
that approximately four or five weeks before the termination of funding, not
from the Ministry of Health, we were asked to come in with some emergency
funding. We were unable to accede to
that.
We had our budget process in place. We had made reductions to other funded
agencies as part of the tougher decisions we have had to make this year versus
other years. We simply did not have the
dollars, on an emergency basis or a very quick‑response basis, to
provide, to continue the support that this initiative required. There is a discussion‑and‑planning
process; there is a planning process and an evaluation and a consideration
process that we attempt to apply with some consistency to determine what new
programs, if any, we are able to fund in a given year.
In terms of the reform process of mental
health, bear in mind that we are asking for as much input from our regional
councils as we can get to make that transition of funding in institution to
community. They are in the process of
developing and offering to us some reasoned suggestions as to where our first
initiatives and priorities ought to be.
This may well be one of them but, as of today, it has not received that
kind of favourable endorsation. One of
the things that we will no doubt attempt to ascertain with ongoing discussions
is the ongoing need, et cetera, for such a program.
Bear in mind, if I recall from being down
at Mount Carmel Clinic and meeting some of the providers, a lot of the clients
were new Canadians who were refugees from
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I think it is fair to say that there is a
significantly improved political climate in
All of those things have to be balanced
because, certainly, in an ideal world with no constraints on government
whatsoever, we would fund every request, but that is not the reality of
government today. Government has to make
its funding decisions based on a balance of information and in a process of
consideration that is not able to be acceded to on four‑weeks notice as
the request was made on this particular program.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I do not want to get into a debate or an
argument with the minister, since we have been keeping things fairly calm and
noncombative for the last couple of days, which is quite a switch from our previous
more than 20 hours at this round of Estimates.
However, I think when we come to something
like this cross‑cultural counselling unit in the mental health field, I
think the minister has to listen to his own words. He is the one who has been talking about
reducing beds on the institutional side, moving away from costly facilities to
community‑based programs, moving the dollar with the patient, finding
more cost‑effective ways for delivering health care. Those are the promises and words and rhetoric
of the minister and this government.
For four years now, this minister has been
talking about mental health reform and moving and shifting dollars from the
institutional side to the community side.
After four years, I would have thought and many others would have
thought that we would see that shift in real dollars, that it would show up in
our Estimates book, that there would be some evidence that this transition was
being made. However, to this day we
still have yet to see that kind of shift.
Now when we have a specific program in
trouble that meets the very real need at the community‑based side, will
save dollars, as the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema) said, in terms of the
acute, more expensive side of our health care delivery system, no matter what
the situation was regarding its request to government when it came to
government, the lateness of the hour, I think the minister still has to take
such a request seriously and place it in the context of the overall direction
and promises made.
What the minister has just said does not
really hold much water when we are looking at the request before government
from this particular program and this particular organization. It is in serious trouble. It may not be around by the time the minister
feels that enough time has passed for it to be considered or it fits into the
schedule and timetable of this government.
It may be more costly in the long run than to reinvent the wheel and
start all over again and put in place such a program.
It does not wash for the minister to say
that, and I know he only said this in terms of part of the mandate of the
group, but to suggest that the issues of trauma and of the impact of torture
and other harsh realities from the homeland and those issues needing to be dealt
with in Canada, that is only part of the mandate, only part of the reason for
this organization and this program to be in existence. It is there primarily and in an overall sense
in terms of helping new Canadians, newcomers to
So regardless of the background of the
individual, of the newcomer, regardless of the political circumstances in the
country from whence the newcomer came, regardless of the economic, political,
social repression that that individual faced in the homeland, there still is
the trauma and the trial and the tribulation of adjusting to a new country with
a new language, new cultures, new food, new ways of community living and so on.
So there still is a question, no matter
which way you look at this whole issue and what emphasis you give this program,
a need for a community‑based mental health program that addresses the
need to be culturally sensitive and based on a cross‑cultural model.
I would repeat what we have asked the
minister to do in the House, and that is to treat this program and this request
before the government with some urgency and consistent with the general
principles it has enunciated in the past around health care reform, and ask if
the minister would once again, if he would treat this as a fairly urgent
request and move it up on his priority list and see if some funding can be
found to be directed to the program in short order, so that it will not end up
closing its doors entirely because it cannot keep operating on the basis of
volunteer labour.
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, my honourable
friend went across quite a few program lines in her description of need. She started out by saying that you know there
will be a greater demand on the formal health care system. That was not the exact words, but that was
the essence of my honourable friend's statement. That I do not think my honourable friend can
demonstrate, because she also said, "maybe." With all due respect, that is exactly the
kind of analysis that we are trying to undertake before we bring in funding to
a program.
My honourable friend knows full well
having been in government that, once you start funding a program, it exists
forever. The moment you ever try to take
away a program that no longer has need, the people who are delivering that
program will kick up the damndest fuss and point out all kinds of need, so on
the need side that is exactly what we are trying to identify across the health
care system.
My honourable friend is saying there is
accessibility. Quite frankly, we do not
have the ability to approve or disapprove that, neither does my honourable
friend, so we are going to fund on speculation.
The case I made was that bear in mind the genesis of this program. Refugees from countries torn by civil war,
repressive governments, Communist‑backed insurgents, right‑wing,
U.S.‑backed governments, the whole gamut, people being tortured, that
does not exist today. This program was
providing counselling around mental illness.
Now, when I pointed that out to her, my
honourable friend said: But it is
important because newcomers from that area are still adjusting to a new
environment. Well, I do not believe that
my honourable friend is asking for the Department of Health to fund a newcomer
adjustment program when there is not a medical need. This was meeting a medical need of mental
health problems when it was first set in.
Now my honourable friend has done the
quantum leap saying: But there may still be people coming from
I say to my honourable friend that there
is a substantial community in place and the social adjustment of newcomers from
now on is a reasonable expectation that the community itself would undertake,
not the Department of Health through funding. Medical needs, yes, we take a
look at that, but social adjustment for new immigrants is not a role, has not
been a role, and will not be a role of the ministry of Health, as my honourable
friend has turned this issue to now.
I say to my honourable friend that, yes,
we intend to move as much as we can towards provision of services in the
community, all health services including mental health services, but there has
not been the analysis on outcome and effectiveness done on this particular
program which leads us to conclude in government that curtailment of this
program will lead to another 2,549 patient days of admissions in our
institutions delivering mental health services.
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I mean that analysis has not been done,
and that is why I caution my honourable friend when she says that there will be
other demands placed on the system. That
may well be, but there is no analysis on that.
We do not fund that kind of speculation.
This is always into the problem where government is asked at the last
minute to pick up a program that someone else has funded‑‑with no
analysis. If it was a good program, why
did the original funding‑‑why was it curtailed?
We are putting in new program funding with
a strong evaluation component, so that we can make a determination at the end
of one, two or three years, whether to continue funding that program based on
solid analysis. I will tell you straight
out, some of the programs we started, if their analysis does not show
justification there will not be continued funding. They will not have delivered the expectations
of more economical or better health service delivery, therefore they will not
become part of the base‑line funding of the ministry, that same criteria
we attempt to provide in terms of analysis for requests of new program funding.
(Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair)
You can make the case that this is a very
valuable program, but I will guarantee you that the next United Way or Winnipeg
Foundation or core area program that is being curtailed in funding somewhere in
the core area or close to your constituencies, you will stand up and say, fund
this one too because it is critically important. That may be a good political initiative but
whether it is an accurate analysis of the need and the outcome of delivery, I
cannot answer. Until we can give that
kind of a determination, I cannot accede to funding.
Furthermore, maybe, and the challenge is
always there for these organizations to take a look and see whether areas of
funding they receive can be reprioritized to meet this need if it is greater
than one of a lesser need, because there are only so many global dollars to go
around. If individuals determine in
their community that need (e) is greater than need (a) they have the perfect
right and ability to come to government and say, let us reallocate this
funding; we can do a better job with reallocated funding.
Because anybody who makes the case that
government anywhere in
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister
questioned my perspective when I suggested that, in fact, the point of funding
programs in the mental health field or the health field was to avoid sickness,
to avoid ill health. I thought that is
where the minister was coming from all along when he talked about more cost‑effective,
community‑based, preventative, Healthy Public Policy focus.
My emphasis in my question was to suggest
to this minister that in that context, given the fact that the cross‑cultural
counselling unit located at Mount Carmel Clinic is designed to address problems
of newcomers so they do not become mentally ill, so they do not become sick,
which does mean steeper costs down the road for taxpayers for our health care
system in the long run.
If the minister does not accept it from me
or my suggestions or my interpretation of what this program means and can mean,
then maybe he will listen to the words of the board of Mount Carmel Clinic when
they outline the benefits of this program and talk about how factors such as
language, cultural difference and previous traumatic life events, mistrust of
authority, unfamiliarity with health social services, education and the legal
system are all significant stressors which may precipitate and have
precipitated problems in mental health.
Those are not my words. Those are
the words from the Mount Carmel Clinic, which is very much concerned about the
future of this program and believes that it has established its credibility,
has proven its worth and deserves to be funded.
All we are asking today of the minister is
not to on the spot guarantee long‑term funding for this program. We are simply asking him and have asked all
along for the minister to fund this program on an interim basis between the end
of its Core Area grant and the beginning of its
That is all we are asking the minister, if
he would agree to some interim funding while he does the evaluation, while he
does attempt to determine how it fits into the overall objectives of this
government on mental health and health in general.
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my honourable friend
is asking that we consider funding, and my honourable friend says that is not
permanent funding and guaranteed‑forever funding, but if we provided two
months funding and then curtailed it, my honourable friend would be on my case
saying, you cut funding. We never had the responsibility to fund in the first
place. We do not make those funding
considerations on the spur of the moment on issues as they come to us,
organization by organization.
Now I will put a challenge.
That is not the approach my honourable
friend is taking. She simply wants us to
toss more money in. Well, we do not have
more dollars to put in on four weeks notice.
I am sorry. As valuable as my
honourable friend perceives the program to be, regardless in distancing myself,
I am not saying it is valuable or invaluable.
I am simply saying the process of government does not allow that kind of
funding on four weeks notice.
What is allowed within the global funding
of institutions like Mount Carmel Clinic is that if this is deemed to be an extremely
high priority, they have the flexibility to approach us and reallocate from
internal budget and make the funding available out of their global budget. That is an option that is there, but I do not
know whether that prioritization amongst all of their programs has been done by
Mount Carmel Clinic. I cannot honestly
answer that. I think it is an
appropriate question, since my honourable friend is lobbying so strenuously for
this particular program, to ask
Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.
It is now five o'clock and time for private members' hour. Committee rise.
\
EDUCATION
AND TRAINING
Madam Chairperson
(Louise Dacquay): Order, please.
Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will
be dealing with the Estimates for the Department of Education. We will begin with opening remarks from the
Minister of Education.
Hon. Rosemary Vodrey
(Minister of Education and Training): Madam
Chairperson, I am pleased to introduce the Department of Education and
Training's Estimates for the 1992‑93 fiscal year.
Since being appointed Minister of
Education and Training several months ago, I have been working hard and I have
been listening to Manitobans' views about their education system. As the minister and as a Manitoban, I am
gratified by the interest Manitobans have shown with regard to all facets of
the education system, and I am encouraged by their concern for and
understanding of the issues and the challenges that face the education system
in our province.
In responding to these issues and meeting
the challenges, we‑‑that is government, the private sector,
students, teachers, school administrators, school boards, colleges and
universities‑‑must develop strong structures and processes that
will take Manitobans into the next century.
I, along with many Manitobans, envision a
system that is based on a partnership approach with a partnership made up of
educators and learners, administrators, government, business and private
citizens. Our government is fully
committed to the philosophy of partnership and the responsibilities and the
rewards that accompany this philosophy.
I have been very proud of the staff in my
department for their contribution to partnership with Manitobans, for the past
year has been a very busy one for Manitoba Education and Training and the staff
has risen to the challenges facing them.
I would like to take a moment to mention a few of the staff members in
the Department of Education and Training who have done exceptional work and
have been recognized through awards.
Mr. Devron Gaber, Director of the Literacy
Office, was awarded the Association of Canadian Community Colleges/Xerox
Leadership Award for his work in literacy.
Dr. Joan McLaren, Director of Co‑op Education at
Betty Seidel, Head, Curriculum and
Reference Services, Instructional Resources Branch, and John Tooth, Director,
received the "Special Services Award for 1992" from the Winnipeg
region of the Canadian Mental Health Association in recognition of the library's
assistance in providing work experience placements and employment for
participants in the CMHA's employment dimensions project.
The Student Support Branch, formerly the
inner‑city branch, received the "Celebrate Literacy Award" from
the International Reading Association and the Reading Council of Greater
Winnipeg for exemplary service in the promotion of literacy.
I believe that these awards are evidence
of some of the good work we are doing. I
would also like to state how proud I am of all the other staff who have worked
very hard this past year to make good things happen in education. With all of the divisions of this department
working together, we have been able to create a mood of optimism within the
department. I believe this is being
transmitted to all partners in the education community through the consultative
and facilitative efforts of staff.
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We have worked hard with members of the
education community to deliver the best possible education. I believe we have very good educational
opportunities in
We recognize that Manitobans want to play
an active role in our education system through public consultation and
partnership. My department has
introduced a number of innovative and creative initiatives which are based on
public consultation and participation.
During my remarks, I will refer to these programs in more detail to
underscore their commitment.
Manitobans realize we each have a role and
a responsibility to play in educating our citizens, and our government is
working hard to ensure that we meet our education and training responsibilities
and that Manitobans are prepared to meet the challenges of a dynamic global
environment.
My department's strategic plan highlights
the importance of global competitiveness and Manitobans' ability to
compete. The emergence of a highly
competitive and integrated global economy, rapid technological innovation and
an expanding knowledge base have major consequences for the work force. Economic indicators predict a continued
increase in jobs that are knowledge intensive rather than labour intensive. Employers demand highly skilled and adaptable
workers who have the ability to upgrade the existing skills and to develop new
ones, workers who can help create and participate in a climate that encourages
entrepreneurship, innovation and economic growth and who can understand and
participate fully in the complex dynamics of a competitive global environment.
Today more than ever the key to
My personal experience with our
educational system is based on front‑line service delivery. That is where we must concentrate our
energies and our resources. That is
where we have concentrated our energies and resources for the 1992‑93 fiscal
year.
My department's mission is to ensure high‑quality
education and training programs for Manitobans, to enable them to develop their
individual potential and to contribute to the economic, social and the cultural
life of
In keeping with our commitment to this
mission and the delivery of front‑line, classroom‑based services,
we have strengthened a number of programs and services and, even in this time
of fiscal restraint, have introduced several new initiatives which will enhance
Manitoba Education and Training's opportunities here in
The introduction of the new School Finance
Program by the former minister in November 1991 was a major step in this
undertaking. With the introduction of
this formula, we have firmly established a pedagogical, front‑line
education delivery so vital to education in our schools.
I would like to thank the staff and the
external members of the Education Finance Advisory Committee who helped to
develop this formula. From those I have
spoken to, it is working quite well. I
believe a large part of the success is the result of tying program and finance
together, something that has not been done previously. By outlining a foundation level of education,
we can better determine where expenditures should be going. Through the
continued effort of program and finance working together, I believe our new
model will continue to evolve into a very effective way of financing education
in
We all recognize that we are operating in
an environment of limited financial resources.
Furthermore, we also recognize that, given the current climate,
government revenues are not expected to increase dramatically. The critical challenge facing our education
system is to continue to provide quality education and education‑related
services and programs to Manitobans while, at the same time, living within our
means.
The Schools Finance Program enables us to
do just that. The new funding program
was developed by my department after lengthy consultation with many members of
the education community including parents, trustees, teachers and school
officials. The fundamental objective of
the new funding program is to provide financial support to each of the school
divisions in a way that takes into account both the educational needs of the
students and the financial resources of each school division.
The introduction of the Schools Finance
Program is aimed at ensuring greater fairness for taxpayers and equity among
schools. I know the members are aware
that the old formula was unfair to schools and to taxpayers alike. It should also be known that during the 1991‑92
school year no divisions were funded in accordance with the old funding
formula.
In developing the new formula, our
challenge was to develop a model which would restore fairness and equity to
education financing.
We have taken a clear course based on the
funding of certain specific education activities. We have chosen a pedagogical base as our funding
model, one which meets the demands and the needs of our students. Notwithstanding the classroom demands, the
formula is also respectful of and takes into account local autonomy.
The new approach is based on five guiding
principles: access to quality education
by all students in
Funding is now linked to a foundation
level of education in the classroom, ensuring that we protect the quality of
education in our schools.
In January, I was pleased to announce an
increase of $23.6 million, or 3 percent in provincial funding for the school
divisions for the 1992‑93 school year.
I believe this is a very significant amount considering the limited
resources available to the province. I
think it is even more significant when we look at the way NDP governments in
Since the announcement was made, I and my
staff have had the opportunity to meet with the representatives of many school
divisions and to discuss the new formula as it relates to the specific needs of
each division and school.
As a result of these meetings, our
government has approved additional phase‑in funding of over $8 million in
support of divisions affected by the change in the funding formula. This benefited all divisions facing a 0.5
mill increase or greater as a result of the new program, 17 divisions in total.
I also announced in January that effective
this year the provincial government will provide much needed financial relief
to residential property owners. The one
mill reduction in educational support levy will save residential property owners
$10.6 million this year. The combined
effects of this funding resulted in an appropriation increase of over 6 percent
to our financial support to schools.
We will continue to meet with and to work
closely with school divisions and schools to ensure that the Schools Finance
Program meets our students' educational needs.
I want to stress, as I have on other
occasions, that the Schools Finance Program is an evolving model designed to
adapt to changing conditions. As we see
the first year of the implementation through, we will be able to determine more
easily what changes, if any, need to be made.
During the 1992 fiscal year my department
will also continue with the review and the reform of The Public Schools Act
which began last year. The report on
legislative reform, which I expect to receive this summer, is another
undertaking that will affect the future direction of education in this
province.
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The Public Schools Act was last reformed
in 1980. The review of the existing
legislation has been undertaken with an eye to major reform. I would like to note that this is the first
time that public hearings on education legislation reform have been held in
The response to the initial stages of this
process has been incredible. Originally,
a series of 20 public meetings were planned.
The public interest in this issue led to a total of 29 hearings being
held in 20
Once I have received the report, I will
begin an internal review of the findings in order to assess any impact on
budgetary requirements, any conflicts with other legislation, existing
legislative provisions and other considerations. It is my hope that once this internal review
is completed, we will be in a position to address the reports, all of the
recommendations and take the next step toward major legislative reform.
My department has also recently begun to
work on the legislative process necessary for the establishment of a
Francophone school board in
While the court established the right of
Francophone school governance, the court did not direct the provinces on how
the ruling should be implemented. As a
result, the Manitoba Task Force on Governance of Francophone Schools was established
to advise our government on the implementation of the court order. Based on
consultation with
The election of regional councils and
school boards will take place in the fall of the same year. The transfer of responsibility for students
is scheduled for September, 1994.
Over the next year, my department will
continue to work toward the implementation of francophone school governance
ensuring jurisprudential compliance with the 1990 Supreme Court decision and
constitutional compliance with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Earlier in my remarks, I made brief
mention of Education and Training's strategic plan. We are now entering year two of this plan and
many of the new initiatives and programs undertaken by my department's Post‑Secondary,
Adult and Continuing Education and Training division addressed the issues
outlined in the plan.
Manitobans must have the skills and the
abilities to meet and to exceed the challenges of the global marketplace. We must continue to support and to encourage
post‑secondary adult education and retraining opportunities. We must concentrate on enhancing our skills
and improving our ability to compete.
Our government and my department are
committed to providing long‑term solutions which respond to Manitobans'
education and training needs. Only with
a skilled work force can
To meet this challenge my department is
involved in numerous activities related to the enhancement and the development
of our existing labour force. Our
Workforce 2000 program encourages greater participation by the private sector in
training.
Our competitive advantages are threatened
partly as a result of the low level of training undertaken by the private
sector. The partnership that we have established with
We have established a focused approach to
human resource planning with the facilitation of an important component of the
Workforce 2000, industry‑wide, human resource planning in key sectors,
and by providing training incentives to small‑ and medium‑sized
businesses. In addition, payroll tax
refunds are provided to manufacturing employers involved in training their
existing work force. Over 1,500 workers
have been trained through Workforce 2000 training initiatives in the first
seven months of operation. I should note
that we anticipate the training of a further 11,000 Manitobans, based on the
approval of payroll tax refunds.
As a result of the popularity of Workforce
2000, and
In recognition of
In addition to the $6‑million
aerospace agreement with the federal government, which I have just mentioned,
Manitobans will soon be completing federal‑provincial negotiations on a
new labour force development agreement.
This agreement will contribute to the strengthening of the
As part of our government's ongoing
activities in strengthening the
After the years of NDP mismanagement of our
college system, we had a lot of work to do.
The colleges had stagnated and their programs were not as relevant as
they should have been. This was in large
part the reason for the low profile of our colleges when the NDP were in
power. As we are now starting to turn
this around, I am very proud of the new and expanded programming which we are
now offering. The review resulted in a
redirection of programming towards curriculum and programs which address and
meet the demands of students and the labour market. College programs were evaluated, based on
enrollment levels, graduation rates, job placements, projected demands for
graduates, as well as program cost and effectiveness.
Consequently, we have developed and
established college programming that is in keeping with labour market
realities: enhanced technology and business management programs, computer
training courses, aerospace technology programs. Expanded training options within rural and
northern
In 1992‑93 we are proposing an
additional $2.5 million to expand college programming with an eye to further
contributing to the economic development of our province through the training
of an additional 640 students. Our
government has recognized the need for community colleges to have greater
flexibility, responsiveness and accountability in order to meet the demands of
our new, dynamic, technology‑based environment. Currently, colleges are direct arms of the
government. This structure does not
provide them with the flexibility required to meet present and future
challenges.
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In consultation with the private sector,
the government has moved toward a system of board governance which is based on
accountability and flexibility. Since
The Colleges Act was passed in July 1991, an implementation plan has been
prepared and is currently being reviewed by our government. Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars has
been earmarked to support the move towards board governance of
In addition to emphasis on improved and
enhanced community college program and services, my department will very soon
establish a review of university education.
Twenty years has elapsed since the last review on post‑secondary
education in
There are major issues arising from these
changes which must be addressed. The
financing of higher education, the relationships of universities to
governments, social agencies, business and industry, the labour market and
other sectors of the educational system, the development of a capacity for
innovation and adaptivity, adaptability and improvement of the quality of
university education are among some of the issues which will be addressed
during the universities review.
We will undertake this review to ensure
universities enhance their participation in social, cultural and economic
development of our province. I
anticipate the establishment of the review commission in the near future, and I
look forward to the review process consultations and to receiving the
commission's findings.
I was very pleased to be able to announce
a 2.4 percent increase in university operating funds this budget year. When we compare ourselves to the rest of
This year,
In 1991‑92, my department increased
funding for student financial assistance to well over $10 million. I am pleased that we have been able to again
increase financial assistance by an additional $615,000. This is money that goes directly to
I should also note that I and my staff
will continue to press the federal government for much needed changes in the
federal student loan program. I have
recently met with the Secretary of State on this matter, and I will continue to
pursue improvements to the federal aid program.
In addition to increased financial support
to post‑secondary students, my department's Program Development and
Support Services division has recently established a Student Support branch to
aid at‑risk students enrolled in Manitoba's elementary and secondary
schools. This division has also taken a
bold and innovative step with regard to curriculum development, child care and
distance education.
I would now like to highlight some of this
division's activities for 1992‑93.
The Student Support branch was established this past February in order
to consolidate the departmental services to students at risk throughout the
province. Our concern for at‑risk
students has led to the amalgamation of the former Inner City branch with the
Regional Services unit. This move, along
with the restructuring and reassignment of existing departmental staff, has
enabled us to better serve the field in this area.
Similarly, at‑risk grants to school
divisions have been increased by 30 percent in order to expand programs at the
school level for schools with high concentrations of students at risk.
Collaboration with divisions and schools will be undertaken to develop programs
that have a positive impact on schools' success with students at risk. The focus of this new branch includes the
development of classroom instructional strategies, assistance in the
implementation of curriculum for at‑risk students, staff development
activities, parent involvement and school organization and environment. We have also focused financial and program
development resources on educational programs operated by Children's Home of
Winnipeg,
I and my staff are very proud of the
Student Support Branch. The establishment of the branch mandate and activities
to address leadership and programming for at‑risk students makes our
commitment to these young Manitobans unique in
The Curriculum Services Branch has also
undertaken a number of initiatives which address the changing needs of students
in our world. In the coming year the
Skills for Independent Living Program will be piloted in
I would also like to highlight the branch's
move to integrate the concepts of sustainable development into the K‑to‑12
curriculum. The principles of
sustainable development which are based on the balance of the environment,
economic activity and the health of society have been blended into the study of
science and social studies and will also be a component of the new Skills for
Independent Living Program.
My department, through its Child Care and
Development Branch, has also taken a leadership role with regard to special
needs. During the past two years my department has been active in assisting
school divisions with the implementation of the special needs guidelines. The implementation is going very well, and
school divisions continue to prepare and submit annual division action
plans. These action plans are proving to
be very significant in that they require school divisions to identify in
writing their beliefs and practices with regard to programs for special needs
students. I should also note that as a
result of the new Schools Finance Program special needs funding has increased
by 40 percent as part of the Schools Finance Program's categorical funding
base.
I am also pleased to report that as a
result of co‑operative and collaborative effort on the part of
publishers, authors, school divisions, trustees, Manitoba teachers, my
department's Educational Resources Branch and the Canadian Reprography
Collective, also known as CANCOPY, have recently entered into Manitoba's first
copyright licence agreement. This
agreement permits
Before concluding my remarks about the
Program Development and Support Services Division, I would also like to
highlight some of the activities of the Distance Education and Technology
Branch. Historically, this branch has
provided leadership in the development of distance education in the
province. Emerging technologies have led
a number of schools to explore the use of fibre optic telephone lines to carry
two‑way, audio‑video classroom programs between schools.
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My department has created a technology
task force on the distance education needs which has recently begun its
consultative process. This process will
result in the preparation of a plan and the development of a policy to address
distance education needs from Kindergarten through to post‑secondary
institutions.
Based on the task force report, school
funding will be reviewed to enable funding for pilot projects which will
further explore the use of interactive video technology. I also intend that this report assist in the
determination of department policy and funding support regarding the role of
provincially operated distance education delivery systems. These are the local‑school‑divisions‑based
networks. I believe that it is indeed an
exciting prospect to use new technologies to enhance and to improve the
educational opportunities in the classrooms of our schools.
I should remind my colleagues that
I should also note that
The Manitoba Satellite Network will
continue to lead the way in using television and satellite technology
interactively permitting remote students and their instructors to interact
freely during instruction.
Other provinces have traditionally used
television and video technology in a broadcast‑only mode. I am pleased to note that these provinces
have begun to adopt the interactive instructional mode that we in
The Independent Study Program is another
program that gives Manitobans access to education and training. Last fall, the Independent Study Program
successfully moved to Winkler, underscoring our government's commitment to
decentralization and to the improved delivery of educational services. The reorganization of this program has led to
enhanced independent study services. We
have established a tutorial program which offers in‑person service at the
My department has also recently
established regional supervisors to provide assistance to schools and to school
divisions regarding distance education and independent study in order to get
input on ways to improve and to enhance the program. Our government recognizes the importance of
an effective and responsive educational system to the long‑term economic
and personal well‑being of Manitobans.
The emphasis my department has placed on distance education, new
technologies and independent study is in direct response to this understanding
and this belief.
Many improvements have been made to
The course that I have outlined for 1992‑93
is based on the delivery of quality education and training opportunities for
all Manitobans. I have outlined major
initiatives in elementary and high school education, advanced training,
retraining and skills development and university education. I have spoken of the innovative and the
creative ways that my department will meet the demands and the needs of
students, the labour market and other participants in our educational system.
We will continue to explore new
technologies, new systems and models which will enable Manitobans to compete
and to succeed in the global marketplace.
We will continue to explore, develop and establish partnerships with the
private sector, other levels of government, teachers, students, parents, school
boards and trustees. We will continue to
invite Manitobans to participate in consultation processes and, most
importantly, we will listen to them.
Manitoba Education and Training has worked hard over the past year and
has demonstrated by the initiatives and the programs we have planned for 1992‑93
that we will continue to address Manitobans' education and training needs.
I am proud of the budget that we have
established for the Department of Education and Training for the coming
year. As the minister, I am confident
that the strategy which we have developed will ensure that Manitobans are
equipped with the skills they need to compete, to succeed and to prosper.
Madam Chairperson: We will now here from the critic of the
official opposition.
Mr. David Chomiak
(Kildonan): Madam Chairperson, we are again embarking on
another Education Estimates session, and I ask the same basic questions that we
asked before. Are we as a society in
Since last Estimates, we have a new
minister, and I congratulate her in her elevation to that post. I have no doubt she will apply the energy and
good will that I know she has in abundance to the post as Minister of
Education. We have also seen a new
education funding formula, called the Schools Finance plan, where, as I stated
last year, would in many ways amount to the New Foundation program which is a
resurrection of the 1960s program that was in place during the Roblin‑Johnson
era. It is basically a resurrection of
that formula. There is no question that
its foundation is in the Foundation program.
In fact, the minister made reference to it this morning.
I will have much to say about the funding
formula and I will deal with it fairly extensively, I can assure you, in terms
of the questions we will have. I do want
to comment just briefly and generally on the program. First, the minister made reference to the
fact no school divisions were on the old formula. I will accept that, but I will indicate to
the minister what I have indicated over and over again. Any new formula that took four years to
create and requires a two‑year phase‑in must be fundamentally
flawed. Imagine, a new formula put in
place requires a two‑year phase‑in.
Secondly, the formula has been changed at
least four or five times since the final formula. We had a final formula; a final, final
formula; a final, final formula. I give
the minister credit for changing the formula, but again it indicates something
fundamentally wrong underlying the formula.
We have no boundaries review, Madam
Chairperson. After much kite flying and
a commitment from the previous minister, the new minister has reversed ground
on the boundaries review.
We have a move towards a form of
Francophone governance. I truly believe
the jury is still out and that there will be a very difficult implementation
process indeed involved in that particular move.
We are also in the midst‑‑and
I should mention it because I did tour the province fairly extensively to talk
with groups in education. We do note,
Madam Chairperson, that almost every comment, the newspapers and on the media,
there is a constant reference towards the education system largely and usually
in a negative sense, and I just want to indicate that the system is a fairly
good one in this province and in this country.
I think we have to talk. I
congratulate the minister. I think she
made mention of‑‑there are very positive aspects of this system
that we should not lose sight of. It is
easy for me as a critic, and for we as critics, to tend to focus on the
negative, but there are very, very positive aspects of our education system,
and people time and time again indicated that to me. I hope that we can all keep that it mind.
In my opening remarks I hope to take a
balanced approach to the education system, and I hope I will contribute to the
debate, not just be critical. My comments
will be divided into two major themes.
Firstly, I will outline what I believe are some of the major
shortcomings of this administration, regardless of who the minister is, and I
will also outline some of the thoughts that my party has towards education and
towards the improvement of education, which would help not only the children,
but all of the society of Manitoba.
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I am going to start out with a few
comments and quotes from the former minister to put this into context. I am going to quote from May 7, 1991, where
the minister said, and I quote: The responsibility for delivering the
educational programming is within the jurisdiction of the school division.
The same minister May 7, 1991, at page
1776 also said, and I quote: It is up to
the school divisions to examine their priorities in terms of the types of
programs they want to deliver to the students within their jurisdiction. School board members will have to reflect the
wishes of the community in terms of programs that they set.
Madam Chairperson, there is nothing
inherently wrong with the comments of the minister except that when you
confine, constrain and contract the resources available to those school
divisions, the result is that priorities and decisions left available to those decision
makers are very small indeed, and they have no choice but to cut programs. They have no option in terms of their
priorities but to do the things that have occurred as a result of the
constraining action posed on them by the provincial government. More importantly, the inequities that exist
are further exasperated with increasing disparity. We have seen that particularly in rural and
northern
Last year hundreds of programs and
hundreds of positions were cut. This
year the 1 to 3 percent increase will not even make up for the natural rate of
inflation. Last year zero, this year 3,
up to 3 in fact. It is not actually 3, I
think it more around 2.7, but nonetheless it does not make up for the drastic
cuts they were making last year.
The other disturbing aspect of this
government's position is the lack of leadership in the Department of
Education. I attribute this in large
extent to not very good administrative practices and no sense of vision or direction
by the department.
The High School Review went badly and is
still in great danger in terms of its implementation. The five‑year strategic plan which is
probably being revised did not lay out any kind of appropriate funding models
and does not provide any real vision or direction in terms of the Department of
Education.
Part of the dilemma is that the minister
does not have or does not utilize data and does not have material upon which to
make her decisions. Do we know why
students drop out? We have set up a
branch. Terrific. The minister said in her speech, we have set
up a branch while other provinces have programs. I would rather have programs than a
branch. But regardless, to whom are
those programs directed? Why are those
programs being put into place? We do not
know in this province. We do not have
any data in this province. How can we
plan when we do not know the basis upon which we are devising these policies?
I think that is one of the major problems
with this department. Does the
government have any idea what direction it is going? I think not, and part of it is a lack of base
material upon which it makes its decisions.
Some school divisions, sensing this, have
put in place a process of developing their own data. I know that for a fact, and I am sure the
minister is aware of it. Maybe she
should tap into it. I will say much more
on this in the appropriate aspect of the Estimates.
There used to be a sense in Education that
if a division or a school required resources they could go centrally to the
Department of Education to obtain those pooled resources. They could get support in curriculum and
professional services. This has largely
been offloaded onto the school divisions now, and the offloads have hurt those
that can least afford it, the rural divisions and those that are not so
large. The consequences are obviously
increased unfairness.
No aspect of education has suffered more
from this government than its education financing. I have asked the questions dozens and dozens
of times, and we have not gotten very appropriate answers. After four years and five budgets, the goal
of this government in my opinion is clear.
I think it is deliberate in design.
That is, if you are wealthy enough and if you live in the right spot,
you will have access to good quality education. If not, you will not.
Special needs or exceptional students are
only funded at less than 50 percent of the actual cost. Why do special needs students have to be
funded by the local division, and everyone else gets funded at the less than 70
percent that other students get funded?
Is that fair? Does that make
sense?
Total operating support for public schools
is only about a 2 percent increase relative to the comparative increase last
year. The department has put in a phase‑in program as well as a
provincial treasury replacement of $10.7 million to replace one residential
mill of the provincial levy. It does not
represent any new or added revenue. It
does not represent any new or added revenue to education. Funds from one pocket go to another
pocket. I do not disagree with the
concept of reducing the mill rate, Madam Chairperson. But the fact is, no new funds are actually
going in in terms of the mill replacement.
I will have more to say about that later.
I want to advise the minister that we are
concerned that a number of trends that are already occurring will only get
worse, and that we are opposed to the unit funding which will result in a loss
of teaching positions and will put us back in the situation where we were in
the '70s, where we will have authorized and unauthorized teachers, where
divisions will be forced to pick up the costs of teachers for programs and, if
they cannot pick up the cost, the teachers will be gone.
We do not have any equalization despite
constant questions from this side of the House for a proper equalization
formula. In the funding model, we do not have an equalization formula. That is
probably one of the key aspects of the inherent unfairness of the funding
formula. We have a supplemental formula. I do not quite understand it. No one, I think, understands it. It has changed. It appears to me to be somewhat arbitrary,
but I will wait to see what the minister's specific comments are on it. But we do not have a form of fair
equalization that redistributes the funds around the province.
I am very concerned about the horrendous
consequences that will occur to school divisions after the two‑year phase‑in
period ends. I might note that the
minister's education advisory committee talked about a four‑year phase‑in
period. The report that was never
released‑‑that I had to release because the minister promised to
release it and did not release it‑‑called for a four‑year
phase‑in period. We put a two‑year
phase‑in period; we do not know what the consequences are going to be
after that period.
The boundary review, much touted by the
previous minister, has come and gone. We
welcome the minister's backing off of that program, frankly, because we do not
trust this administration to do a review fairly. But many of the problems still remain, such
as: the horrendous anomalies of
transportation around the province; the issue of interdivisional transfers and
the fees associated with those, particularly for those students who are
exceptional.
There are many examples of that, Madam
Chairperson. Even, in fact, in my own
constituency, there is a boundary that runs two streets off the boundary line
in Kildonan constituency and students have to be bussed for French immersion to
Churchill. It does not make a lot of
sense, and the costs associated with it do not make sense.
How best to spend money wisely? I mean, the fundamental point still exists,
that we do have a school division in this city that is about 1,200 students,
and another school division is about 30,000 students.
Co‑ordination of services, Madam
Chairperson, I will have much to say on this later. But we note that Manitoba Health has advised
that a health grant will no longer be made available to Winnipeg School
Division No. 1 for . . . services provided by the Child Guidance Clinic, Madam
Chairperson.
This, like many trends in the loss of
services, is not the way the province should be going. Where is the response from this minister, or
any minister, called for last year by MAST, MTS and MASBO and MASS, to begin
the process of co‑ordination of government departments in their approach
to dealing with children? This
government, I believe, still functions basically in a 1960s mode, and it has to
change.
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Two other brief areas of great concern we
have on this side of the House, Madam Chairperson, are taxes and what we have
called the GFT, the horrendous offload onto school divisions, special levy of
$300 million this year, all‑time high, and the fact that information
disappears into the bowels of the department.
I noted the minister said that she is
going to receive the report that she was supposed to receive on April 10, I
might add according to the previous schedule.
She is going to now receive the report on the education legislation
review sometime in the summer and then it is going to be reviewed
interdepartmentally.
We heard the same thing for years on the
government Finance report that was never revealed publicly. Information has a habit of disappearing into
the bowels of the Department of Education and never reappearing or appearing in
some kind of strange or different form than it initially went in. We have concerns about that.
I want to turn to some other aspects of
Education and point out that obviously there is a challenge ahead of us as a
society and as a province, particularly in light of the fundamental structural
changes in our society. In
I think that principle is being eroded by
this administration but nonetheless I still think that there are some common
goals we all have, and the common goals are fairness and equity in the
system. That means a child, a man or
woman who lives in Flin Flon, the inner core of the city of
Fairness, as well, Madam Chairperson, must
be approached not only to the provision of Education services but to the method
in which those services are funded basically through the taxation system, and a
serious look must be taken at that.
In that context I want to touch on five
major themes that we in the New Democratic Party fundamentally believe in. First, the policy dimensions pertaining to
public education involve a wide array of values: some competing, some contradictory. A foremost guiding principle to be upheld by
the provincial government when conflicting values or perspectives are
encountered will be to favour the educational interest of children. The prevalent value in the education policy
of our party will be that educational equality in the form of equitable access
to educational programs and services.
This statement, so simple, has not been
followed. It should be a credo and
should be embodied in the revised Education act. It should be a credo and
embodied in the funding model. It should
be the touchstone in the very foundation of this strategic plan.
A second thing to be developed within an
emerging education policy is the need to shift emphasis in a delivery of
education by the public sector from costly remediation to more cost‑effective
prevention. The scope of education cost
to be borne by the public sector can be modified by the earliest possible
intervention in the life of a young child, particularly in relation to special
learning needs.
The objective of a reform service delivery
model for education should be to provide children with the appropriate
educational services they require when they are a certain age, at that age, not
five or 10 years late. I often use the
Fram Oil commercial, Madam Chairperson, to make this point. You pay me now or you pay me later. Just diverging for a second, I can tell you
that I used to see that when I practised law.
Perhaps early intervention would have prevented a lot of these children
and people becoming involved in the criminal system at 45 bucks an hour for a
legal aid lawyer, and the cost of incarceration, et cetera.
This leads into a third theme of enhanced
service delivery co‑ordination involving education and child
development. All agree that we must move
in this direction. The minister has a
study on her desk still with no response.
The request from the organization was that a response be delivered by
December 31, 1991. As far as I am aware
there still has been no response to that particular proposal.
Madam Chairperson, I rarely cite the
former Social Credit government of B.C., but they have even gone further than
this jurisdiction in terms of interdepartmental delivery of programs and
services to children. [interjection]
Yes, even they have developed a protocol system that is far beyond what we have
in this province for co‑ordination of services, and I spent a fair bit of
time with the minister in the last Estimates dealing with that particular
issue. I would hope that the minister
would have new information for me this time.
We do have protocols existing in this province. I think there is at least one in effect that
deals with children after the age of 21, I believe, in terms of education and
the co‑ordination between various departments. But the point nonetheless is we have to
develop much further this system.
Fourthly, the minister must move on
exceptional children. The green book was a good start, and I have stated on many,
many occasions that it was a good start, but it was only a start. I want to just cite at this point some
information and data that I received from a province‑‑it is always
referenced by members opposite‑‑and that is
Firstly, the educational objectives should
clearly identify the educational objectives in an opening statement entitled
Beliefs About Children. Secondly, they
make a commitment towards integration in relation to education by the
provincial government. Thirdly, they
describe the co‑ordination by the provincial government ministries of
service delivery to school children; and fourthly, a section on provincial
funding which is recognized as the prerequisite to the meaningful development
of educational equity.
We have issued a policy paper. We have some vague guidelines. I have said for a long time that is a good
start, but at the time of this policy paper release, the minister spoke of the
next step in developing an equitable process, and that was to be the
introduction of special education regulations.
Three years have elapsed. Where
are the regulations?
Fifth, and finally, Madam Chairperson, let
us talk about education in this province.
I note in a very positive sense that the minister indicated that they
will listen. I think it is time to open
up the doors and the windows of the education discussion to the public. I think we have to go back to the public to
develop the emerging consensus about what we should be doing in education, how
we should be going. We should not just
discuss the negative aspects. We have to
talk about the positive aspects that have occurred in this province, in this
country. Let us consult. Let us build this consensus, and we do not
have to get caught up in previous structural models, or previous systems that
have been put in place, but let us open up the process. Let us have input. Let us involve the public because, quite
frankly, in my own opinion it is probably the single most important initiative
that we could do for our children and for our children's children.
With those comments, I will close, Madam
Chairperson. I will be dealing far more
extensively with some of these major points during the Estimates process.
Thank you.
Madam Chairperson: We will now hear from the critic for the
Second Opposition party, the honourable Leader of the Liberal Party.
Mrs. Sharon Carstairs
(Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam
Chairperson, I am delighted to participate in this debate in Education,
although I did not anticipate that I would be here doing this, to give the
minister a little bit of background and, first of all, to welcome her as the
minister, and, quite frankly, to indicate as I indicated to her privately that
my questions will be of a very general nature in this session. I know that it takes some time to learn the
details of any government department.
I think it would be a great waste of
everybody's time for her to have to refer to staff constantly, which I know she
is going to have to do simply because she has not had the time to learn her
department in the detail which I will expect her to know next year. As a good teacher, I will have expected her
to have learned her lessons well as a result of this year's experience and will
provide much more detailed questioning for her the next time we do this. Meanwhile I will write to her office with any
specific questions I have that require the kind of very specific detailed
answers.
I also want to say that I have a great
number of friends in the education field as I am sure the minister is
aware. The reports to date are very
positive about the new Minister of Education.
The reaction is that she is consultative and she does listen. Whether she will be able to change things in
any significant way remains to be seen because she really has not had that
opportunity. There is a feeling among
those whom I have spoken with that they are prepared to give her a chance. I think that is significant and hopefully it
will bode well for the process of education in the province.
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I began by saying I did not expect to be
here and, quite frankly, if the previous Minister of Education had still been
the Minister of Education I would not be here, because I was tired of banging
my head against a brick wall. Education
is a very important aspect of my life.
As the minister knows, I taught school for many years. I taught in almost every system we have in
this province, in private schools, in public schools and in Catholic schools,
so I have an experience which takes me not only to two different provinces but
also to one state in the
When I make a contribution to the
Estimates process, I try to make that contribution not based on partisanship
but based on what I see is a legitimate need within the educational
community. Since that was not respected
by the previous minister, I only have to hope that this minister will indeed at
least listen‑‑if she does not agree I can accept that‑‑but
at least listen to the contribution that I have to make in a field that is‑‑as
I know social work has been to her‑‑a passion for much of my life.
There are a number of things that I am,
however, very concerned about. First and
foremost, I think what we have to do in the
If we continue to allow 30 percent of them
to fall between the cracks and not to graduate from high school, if we continue
to deny them the opportunity to go on to post‑secondary educational
institutions, then they will not be able to become the taxpayers of the future,
upon which, I might add, the 57 of us sitting in this Chamber depend. If our pension plans and our health care
system and our quality of life is going to have any viability whatsoever, it is
in our best interest to invest in our young people of today.
If we could change the mentality of
education to one where it is clearly seen as an investment, then I think we
would find that the resources, whether those resources were in the private
sector or in the public sector, would free up much more easily, rather than to
say the mentality at the present that this is a service that we give to young people.
I am very disappointed that the minister
has made the decision that she is going to cancel the boundaries review. There
are indeed a number of issues going on within the educational field, but most
of them, I would suggest to the minister, impact upon the effect of the number
of boundaries that we have. Whether we
are talking about funding formulas, whether we are talking about high school
review, whether we are talking about French governance, whether we are speaking
about a new Public Schools Act, many of those must take place within a context
and the only context we have in the province of Manitoba for the delivery of
all of those programs is schools divisions. By restricting the school division
review process which is some 40 years overdue, I might suggest, I think that we
are going backward.
The minister indicated the need and her
desire very shortly to announce a college review. I was interested in her arguments for such a
college review, because the arguments are exactly the same ones I would make
for the need for a boundary division review.
I also find it interesting that letters as late as the 18th of February
were written by the Premier of this province to the Manitoba Teachers' Society
indicating they were going to proceed.
So the decision was made I think very precipitously and very quickly to
halt a process which I think is fundamental to the future direction of
education in the
Like the critic for the New Democratic
Party, I am also concerned about the funding formula. I think it has many inadequacies. I think the minister may believe it was a
consultative process, indeed it was not.
The consultation that took place came up with a report, but that report
was not the report that eventually became the funding formula. The funding formula came from the top down to
the committee. The committee then
accepted the report of the cabinet, one presumes, and sent it back up again. But the committee itself, who had been
working on a funding formula, had in fact not prepared the document that is
presently before us.
I am concerned also about the whole reform
of curriculum education in the
There are many studies being done now
about the effect of whole language which is essentially the way we teach
language arts in the province of Manitoba, not all of them very flattering to a
whole language concept, many of which say that whole language works extremely
well for bright children, but then any reading program, generally speaking,
works well for very bright children.
Many very bright children, quite frankly, are not taught to read by
teachers. They teach themselves to read.
So whether they are taught to read by
whole language or whether they are taught to read by the old phonics method is,
quite frankly, irrelevant. What we are
now learning is that for the less academically strong student, that the lack of
phonics education and language arts may impact very severely on their ability
to write and spell into the future. I
have a number of articles that I am prepared to share with the minister,
because I think that is the kind of sharing that at this point is valid between
all members of this Legislature.
I am also concerned about the French
governance issue, and I would like to put two suggestions before the
minister. I asked the Premier (Mr.
Filmon) who had reviewed the proposal, and he informed me that it had been
reviewed by the Constitutional Law Branch of the government itself.
Well, with the greatest respect to the
Constitutional Law Branch of this government, I think it is fair to say that if
the government wants a position, then the Constitutional Law Branch will give
them a position. It does not matter on
what particular issue they want that. It
is like getting a legal opinion. If I
want a legal opinion and I want to direct a lawyer to give me that legal
opinion, I can tell him what I want.
Invariably, believe it or not, that opinion will come back just as I
instructed it to be given.
That is why, with some amusement, we can
get a legal opinion on Hydro, quite frankly, which is contrary to the
government's legal opinion on Hydro. They are both valid, legal opinions. Which one
is more valid? Who knows, because we
have not been able to see the government's legal opinion, we have only been
able to see our own. The same is true in
referring something to the Constitutional Law Branch of government.
I think that there are two things that the
minister could do with respect to French governance. I think that first and foremost it could be
referred without any qualifications to a constitutional authority outside of
this government and ask them to review it.
I would do that because I think it would be a tragedy for this province
for us to go through a process and then find out that process was
unconstitutional.
The second, which is more cumbersome and
more expensive, would be to in fact take the program and send it back to the
Supreme Court and ask the Supreme Court in a reference if it was within their
understanding of their Alberta judgment.
If that was the position put, and they said yes it was, then we would
have some strength in knowing that we were proceeding down the road correctly.
Neither of these options may be
acceptable, but I think the real tragedy would be, if we do proceed with this
process only to discover that it is unacceptable. Certainly, I know the minister is aware that
the Societe franco‑manitobaine and the Francophone parents association
have come up with legal opinions which say it does not meet the needs of the
constitutional recommendations of the Supreme Court of Canada.
I ask the minister to take note of that
and to look at a couple of alternative ways in which she could assure herself
and the government that we are proceeding in the right direction.
The quality of education in
There are also some very evident examples
of children falling through the cracks.
What is not clear is why they are.
Is it poor teaching? That we do
not know. Is it lack of funding? That we
do not know. One of the reasons we do
not know that is that we have not put sufficient time and energy into the
evaluation of programs and curriculums.
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The testing, which is going to go on
nation‑wide, and which I am now delighted that Ontario has agreed to
participate in, I think will give us a base line. I think we have to be very careful as to what
we do with the testing results.
Testing results, if they are used to
evaluate teachers, are rarely valid because, if I am given a group of very
bright children, I do not have to be a particularly gifted teacher in order for
those children to do extremely well.
On the other hand, if I am given a class
of students who come from very disadvantaged backgrounds, I may be a brilliant
teacher and still not have a great deal of success. So the reality is that to use testing as a means
to evaluate teachers lacks a certain validity.
On the other hand, we must have
benchmarks. We must have some idea in
our society what we think is a valid amount of learning for a first‑grader
to know, for a second‑grader to know.
We have a new policy that has just been
announced in
To me, that is all too often what we do in
education. We go from one pendulum swing
to the other pendulum swing without realizing that there were strengths and
weaknesses. We should address the
weaknesses but at the same time we should not do away with the strengths.
To have a formal form of testing process
that can identify for each and every one of us the problems, the difficulties I
think is valid. To use it to do
something which I think is invalid, obviously I do not support.
I am not going to get into a mention here
of the post‑secondary education and training initiatives, because as the
minister is aware, both the critic for the New Democratic Party (Mr. Chomiak)
and myself will be replaced at that point by critics who are now specializing
on post‑secondary education and training.
I think that is a direction that I would
like to see the government go. I am on
the record in the Family Services minister's Estimates, and the minister knows
that I think that we have to separate K to 12 and even nursery to 12 into one
branch of government and training and post‑secondary education in another
so both will get equal amounts of time and attention.
The minister I believe is now fully aware
of the drains on her time of a K‑to‑12 system and the limited time
that is left over for the other aspects of her department. I hope that the government will move toward
that same kind of rationalization in the future.
Finally, I would like to indicate that I
have a grave concern about the lack of co‑ordination of what is going on
between three primary departments although other departments impinge as well on
our K‑to‑12 students.
We know that more and more health
services, more and more social family services are being dealt with within the
educational context. Whether we are
ensuring that our children have nutrition programs within the school setting,
whether we are looking at before‑school child care or after‑school
child care, whether we are looking at the health needs of the special needs
child, whether we are looking at occupational therapy or physiotherapy within
the school setting, what we have done is to expect our school system to absorb
more and more and more service direction for all of these areas‑‑at
the same time.
There has not been the appropriate
distribution of funding for those services within the school setting. That is leading to a major crisis. We have watched the percentage of the
provincial budget for education actually decline. I am not talking about dollars, I am talking
percentage. Not so many years ago
education received 19 percent of all monies expended by the province. They are now sitting at about 17
percent. In addition, we have watched
the erosion of the provincial contribution to education so that the last
figures that I saw were that it was some 68 percent of the costs of education
throughout the
It used to be 78 percent. Howard Pawley, in 1986, in that election
campaign, promised it would go to 90 percent of all costs. Well, by the time he had left office, it in
fact decreased from 80 down to about 77 and that slide has continued ever
since.
That does not bode well. I have heard the previous minister say,
throwing money at the system, you know, will not solve all the problems. There is no question about that. Throwing money at the system will not solve
all the problems, but the reality is the money is being spent. Where it is being spent and where it is coming
from is not based on a taxpayer's ability to pay.
We know that the municipal taxpayer pays
tax on the value of his or her property.
There is very little allowance made for the fact that the senior citizen
may be living on a fixed income, and while that property may have increased
dramatically in value, the individual paying those taxes may not have seen a
comparable level of income. So the
inequity of establishing a school system in the province based on a property
tax value, and depending more and more and more upon that property tax value to
fund it, is creating very serious inequities.
Nobody likes income taxes. Certainly nobody likes to see them go up, but
if I had my choice as to whether my property tax would go up, or whether my
income tax would go up, I would much prefer to see my income tax go up. Because I know that my income tax is based on
my ability to pay, and my property tax is not based on my ability to pay.
So with those remarks, I welcome the
opportunity to dialogue with the minister, in hopefully a positive way, about
the future of education in the
Madam Chairperson: I would remind members of the committee that
debate on the Minister's Salary, item 1.(a) on page 38 will be deferred until
all other items in the Estimates of this department have been passed.
At this time I would invite the minister's
staff to enter the Chamber.
I would like to introduce John Carlyle,
who is the Deputy Minister of Education and Training; Dominique Bloy, who is
the Assistant Deputy Minister of Administration and Finance; Tom Thompson; who
is the Director of the Finance Branch; and John Didyk, who is Executive
Director of Planning and Research.
Mr. Chomiak: Just for my own information purposes, I wonder
if the minister can indicate if any of the staff who are presently appearing in
their present positions are new appointments to or new elevations to new
positions at the Department of Education.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, Dominique Bloy, who is now the Assistant
Deputy Minister of Administration and Finance, became Assistant Deputy Minister
on January 14, and she moved into that position by competition.
Mr. Chomiak: Replacing Mr. Leo LeTourneau, who was acting
Assistant Deputy Minister of Administration and Finance?
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, he was in that position in an acting
capacity, as the other person before him had left.
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Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, on September 5, 1991, the
Deputy Minister, Mr. Carlyle, as is usual practice, provided a memo to
superintendents, school division district principals, remote school districts,
et cetera, outlining the staff, the recent staff changes at the executive level
of the Department of Education.
I am advised that at one time it was
common practice at the Department of Education to provide the critics in the
respective areas with at least copies of memos of this kind. I am wondering if the minister will consider
reimplementing the practice of providing the critics with copies of memos of
that kind, of major changes to staff and major developments in the department.
Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I will certainly consider doing that.
Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for those comments.
The minister will note, no doubt, that
during Question Period I raised the matter of the salary increases to the
deputy minister. I wonder if she can confirm
that this year's expenditures in terms of the salary for the deputy minister is
increased to $100,000 from last year's figure of $92,900.
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I am advised, on the advice
of the Civil Service as well, that we do not really reveal the salaries. They are a matter of privileged information.
However, I can confirm that the deputy
minister is at a Senior Officer 8 classification and that he received the merit
increases last year and also the negotiated increase of 3 percent.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I beg to differ with the
comments of the minister, because the Supplementary Estimates are public
knowledge, and, in fact, these salary levels are printed in the Supplementary
Estimates. I wonder if the minister can
advise me as to whether or not these figures are inaccurate then.
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I am advised that salaries
for individuals are not listed in the Estimates, that they are only a total.
Again, I would remind him that the deputy
is at a Senior Officer 8 classification, and certainly the salary range for
that classification is available.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, in other words, the salary
level for Senior Officer 8, deputy minister level is $100,000.
I wonder if the minister can indicate the
criterion factors as to why the salary levels were increased by in excess of 7
percent, in fact, 7.6 percent this year for the deputy minister, in light of
the Minister of Finance's comments in the budget of belt‑tightening and
in light of the less than 3 percent grants to the public schools in the
province of Manitoba this year.
Mrs. Vodrey: I am advised that $100,000 is the estimate,
that the Senior Officer 8 salary range is $87,870 to an upper range of
$106,102. The deputy falls in that range,
and that range is reached within six steps.
I am also advised that the criterion for increase is the increase on
each anniversary year. At each
anniversary date per year there is an eligibility for merit increases, and the
other increase was negotiated by the MGEA.
Mr. Chomiak: Will the minister consider our suggestion made
in Question Period, which she indicated she would respond to during Estimates,
to limit the increase to the deputy minister for important symbolic reasons? I want to add at this point this is no
reflection on the calibre or the integrity of the present incumbent in the
office, but, for very important symbolic reasons, will she limit the increase
for the deputy minister because she has it within her power and her authority, as
I understand it, to limit the increase to the 2.7 level that has been allocated
for the public schools in the province of Manitoba this year?
*
(1600)
Mrs. Vodrey: The deputy received a negotiated salary
increase, and I have discussed at this point with the member how that is
arrived at and what the formula is. The
process of allocating funds to school is not by collective agreement, and so
the two matters are somewhat different.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, can the minister outline
who are the parties that negotiate the agreement, the collective agreement that
the deputy minister entered into?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, negotiation is done by the
Manitoba Government Employees' Association with the government. The deputy
minister, as a civil servant, then receives the negotiated amount.
Mr. Chomiak: Is the minister implying that the deputy
minister is in scope of the collective agreement?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, no, the deputy minister is
not in scope of the collective agreement, but when the negotiated amount is set
it has become a salary framework for government.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, how did the deputy
minister, therefore, receive an increment this year of approximately $4,000
from last year if the salary increments were frozen last year as a result of
Bill 70?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I am advised that the
freeze does not affect '92‑93.
Mr. Chomiak: I am aware of that, but I note that between
'91‑92 and '92‑93, the salary went from $88,000 to $92,900. In other words, the previous year, the period
for which Bill 70 was in effect, the deputy minister's salary went from $88,000
to $92,900. I can indicate to the
minister I am referring to the previous year's Estimates books and I am
referring to the fact that the '90‑91 versus the '91‑92 vote was
$88,000 to $92,000, which is an increase of $4,900.
Mrs. Vodrey: I just would like to remind the honourable
member that my deputy falls into the same category as all other deputies in
terms of his increases, and that he received a merit increase in that
time. The $4,000‑‑he will
have to provide me with a little more information on where he gets those
figures.
Mr. Chomiak: Is the minister asking me to provide her with
more information, where I get the figures‑‑the last year's Estimate
book indicated that‑‑and I will accept the minister's answer. If the minister is saying the deputy minister
went from $88,000 to $92,900 based on merit increases, I will accept that if
that is the minister's answer.
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I will be happy to have an
additional look at this and provide you with anything further that might help
the next time we are together.
Mr. Chomiak: I will thank the minister for that, and I will
just point out page 27 of last year's supplementary Estimates book has the
figure $88,000 and then the increase to $92,000, but if the minister will
subsequently provide me with it, I will accept that in terms of moving the
process on and determining the issue.
Another concern voiced today by members on
this side of the House was the overall increase in Executive Support, not only
this year over last year, but since this government has been in power there has
been approximately close to a 50 percent increase in Executive Support to the
minister with the same nine staff positions available.
I am wondering if the minister can outline
for me what in fact this indicates.
*
(1610)
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I would like to tell the
honourable member that every employee did receive the same negotiated increase
and eligibility for merit increase. The
deputy, for the first year in that position, was seconded and therefore was
paid out of operating expenses. When he
was no longer seconded and became a civil servant he was then paid out of
salary. So that may account for some of
the changes.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, that in fact will account
for approximately 10 percent of the changes, because the deputy minister's
salary had a $15,000 increase 1988‑89 through 1989‑90, according to
the Estimates book, from $73,000 to $88,000, and that accounts for 10 percent.
The rest is not all accounted in salaries
and the natural revolution, because we know that in fact Communications has
doubled in the Executive Support Division.
Communications has doubled since 1988‑89 in that division, despite
the fact that the government supposedly has centralized communications in
another area of government.
I wonder if the minister might comment on
the doubling of the communication costs in that period of time, because that is
relevant.
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I would just like to remind
the honourable member that there are no more staff this year than last year,
but he would like to go back several years.
So in that case I will be happy to provide him at a later date with the
answers to the questions that he has asked.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I will point out to the
minister that the same nine staff positions were existent at that period of
time as they are existent today. So
there has been no increase or decrease for that matter in staff in terms of
Executive Support.
So the increases are salary‑‑correct‑‑as
well as communications, transportation, et cetera, and my question for the
minister to refer back to is specifically the Communications component.
Of the nine staff positions presently in
existence, can the minister indicate what changes have occurred for those nine
staff positions in terms of personnel between this year and last year, and if
there have been changes, whether those changes have been via competition and
who the incumbents are presently?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I would just like to ask
for a clarification. Is the member
asking about the nine Executive Support staff or Communications department?
Mr. Chomiak: I am asking about the nine Executive Support
staff.
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, the new people in those SY
positions, one is myself as minister and then we have a secretary to the minister
who was reassigned and then, thirdly, we have the EA to the minister and that
is not filled through a Civil Service competition.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister outline for me the names and
positions of the other six SYs?
Mrs. Vodrey: First of all, it seems I am not one of the
nine. I just wanted to clarify that.
I am happy to tell the member who the
other SYs are. The name is Angele
Kirouac, secretary to the minister; Linda Coomb, secretary to the minister;
John Carlyle, who is the deputy minister; Viviane Misurka, who is the secretary
to the deputy minister; Diana Saaid, secretary to the deputy minister; and Pat
Lavoie, program analyst.
Mr. Chomiak: For my own clarification, we have the deputy
minister, we have two secretaries to the minister, we have two secretaries to
the deputy minister, we have a program analyst, we have an EA to the minister
and there are still two more SY positions not accounted for in the minister's
comments.
Mrs. Vodrey: I am sorry.
I thought the member had asked for those whom I had not previously
named, but let me clarify for him; I had named previously Rosalie Prawdzik,
secretary to the minister, who was the reassigned person; Jim Mickelson, who is
the special assistant to the minister; and I had named previously Anna Marie
Roberecki who is the executive assistant to the minister.
Mr. Chomiak: That means the minister has two EAs.
Mrs. Vodrey: One EA, Anna Marie Roberecki; one SA, Jim
Mickelson.
*
(1620)
Mr. Chomiak: I wonder if the minister might just table a
list. It would certainly make it much simpler.
Perhaps I am slow at copying, but can the minister table a list that she
has?
Mrs. Vodrey: I will be happy to table one of those lists
tomorrow. I do not have a list available
to table with me at this time.
Mr. Chomiak: I appreciate that, so I could perhaps return
to it tomorrow. I just want to ask one
quick question on this again. According to my notes, therefore, the minister
has two secretaries and the deputy minister has two secretaries. Is that correct?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, no. There are three secretaries in the minister's
office and two secretaries in the deputy's office.
Mr. Chomiak: So, in fact, I believe I am able to put it
together to account for five secretaries, an EA, a special assistant, a deputy
minister, and a program analyst. Is that
correct?
Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister indicate whether those job
titles‑‑that is, the five secretaries, the EA, the special
assistant, the program analyst, the deputy minister‑‑if any of
those job titles have changed since last year?
Mrs. Vodrey: No, the titles have not changed.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister outline for me her philosophy
of the role of the deputy minister?
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, deputy ministers are the
chief administrative officers of the department and they work under the
direction, or they work subject to the approval, of the minister. As chief administrative officer the deputy is
responsible for the day‑to‑day operations of the department and to
carry out the policies set by government.
A deputy minister also provides information to the minister and advice
to the minister. The deputy minister
also acts as a liaison with the community as well and assists in the
consultation with the community, both the education community and the wider
community, and will also report some matters occurring in the field to the
minister. The deputy may also carry out
meetings on behalf of the minister, and in general carries through the
administrative role, the management part.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister outline her philosophy of
when the minister should be represented by the deputy minister at events and
when the minister should not be represented by the deputy minister at events?
Mrs. Vodrey: By and large we do not always know the nature
of events that we are asked to attend sometimes until we actually arrive and we
find out that perhaps they may be different than the invitation had stated, but
by and large the deputy would attend events in which there were perhaps
technical matters for discussion. They
might attend events to discuss initiatives and the working of the Department of
Education. The deputy would likely not
attend events in which he was asked to account for government policy or speak
of future policy development, but those events in which some technical
expertise was required or again a full discussion of initiatives and the
working of the department, then those would be appropriate.
*
(1630)
Mr. Chomiak: I raise that issue because the previous
minister, I believe, broached that particular philosophy as expressed by the
minister, and this is no reflection on the deputy minister, who, from my own
observations and I suspect other political observers, was put in very
uncomfortable situations on occasion by the previous minister in terms of
representing government policy and government future initiatives and was put in
extremely awkward situations. I can
think of several instances. One that
comes to mind was a conference where myself and the Leader of the Liberal Party
(Mrs. Carstairs) attended to discuss special needs and learning disabilities,
and the deputy minister was put in a very difficult situation by the previous
minister with respect to representing government policy at that point. I highlight it for the minister's attention,
because it is very much a sore point of mine, because the line, I think, should
not be crossed and should be avoided at all costs.
By way of explanation, that is the reason
that I am raising it here today, because I want to indicate it is very much a
sore point of mine, and I think it puts the deputy minister in a very
unfortunate and a very difficult situation.
That is no reflection on the deputy minister who I think, by the way,
handled himself excellently under those circumstances, but did not provide a
service to the public who were there at that particular meeting and at several
other meetings of that kind to hear government policy and were put in a
position where they could not.
So I just want to alert the minister to
that difficulty being expressed by myself and others. I do not know if the minister wants to
comment, or I could go on to a new question.
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I have understood what the
member has said. However, I know that he
would also understand that sometimes there are events when ministers are not
able to go. Because the events are of a
technical nature and do require some explanation of detailed policy, another
elected member is not able to attend in the minister's place. In order to respect the integrity and the
effort of individuals who have planned a conference or have planned a meeting,
it then becomes very important to have someone there who can speak on the
subject with some ability and some understanding. So, though I have understood the point
raised, I would also like to add that there certainly are times when, for many
reasons, it is not possible for the minister, and then the deputy will attend.
Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for those comments, Madam
Chairperson, and I am quite certain she is aware of our concerns, and I am
quite confident that we will not be put in that situation and the deputy
minister will not be put in that very difficult situation in the future.
I would like to ask several questions
along the same lines though, in the same area.
It deals with government policy.
In the past several months there have been two instances where the
deputy minister has been quoted in the paper discussing government policy. I would like the minister to comment what her
philosophy is with respect to the deputy minister commenting on government
policies. I will name the two
instances. The first was the boundaries
review issue, and the deputy minister was quoted in the
I am wondering if the minister can
comment, first generally what her philosophy is with respect to matters of
policy and the deputy minister's making a statement versus the minister, and
also perhaps she could enlighten me on those two particular instances?
Mrs. Vodrey: The quote in the boundaries review‑‑I
am sorry, I am not sure exactly which specifically the member is referring to,
but I would like to say that my memory of those two issues‑‑and I
believe I am thinking of the right ones‑‑in each case the deputy
minister did not create policy and he did not attempt to create a policy or
speak for government policy.
He was asked for a comment on either an
existing situation or, in one case, I think perhaps a hypothetical situation in
terms of the boundaries review, and his comment on the school year was a
comment to simply discuss that we have a committee reviewing the school
calendar. I believe that he was
answering factual questions at that time.
Now, the interpretation of the listener rests with the listener
following that.
Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister outline what her philosophy
is with respect to the deputy minister commenting on matters of this
guide? Where is the boundary and what is
the appropriate role and the appropriate matters upon which and when the deputy
minister should be commenting?
Mrs. Vodrey: In my opinion, the deputy would often be
called upon to answer questions of a technical nature, as I said, also questions
which are of a highly detailed nature, and also of a factual nature. Those factual questions can sometimes range
to, "what is government policy?"
But there is a difference between that question and the question
"what should policy be?" In
that case, when it is "what should policy be?" then that is a
question which should be answered not by the deputy. "What will policy be?" should not
be answered by the deputy.
Mr. Chomiak: Does the department have a regime or a
particular protocol in effect in the department when questions would be
referred to the minister and when questions would be referred to the deputy
minister?
*
(1640)
Mrs. Vodrey: In a general sense, those political questions,
questions about new initiatives, questions about government policy, or
criticisms of government policy, or what may be a new and projected government
policy for the most part should not be answered by the deputy. However, where questions become technical,
where questions are about existing policy, then those are questions which the
deputy may answer.
Mr. Chomiak: The minister indicated that a committee has
been set up dealing with the proposal for the 12‑month school year. Can
the minister outline what that committee is, who is on it, what it is looking
at, what its mandate is, and when it is going to report?
Mrs. Vodrey: I just would like to advise the honourable
member I could answer that question now.
It is a line of questioning which does fall under XVI Administration
1.(g), and I would be happy to answer it.
Also at that time, when we get to that line, in the detail that he may
like at that time.
Mr. Chomiak: If the minister would not mind, I am quite
curious about this committee, so I would appreciate if she could answer at
least in general terms now, so I could have some understanding as to what this
committee is that the deputy minister made reference to and the minister made
reference to in the House yesterday.
Mrs. Vodrey: The committee was established by
government. The purpose was to explore a
range of issues relating to the school year, and very specifically some of the
issues are: the start‑dates of
school, the completion‑dates of the school year, holidays within the
school year, the role of the minister in prescribing the number of days, for
example, 200 days or 197 days, how the days may be used, and also to look at
whether year‑round schooling, being one of the issues, would be viable.
It is being considered in other
jurisdictions, and so this was an opportunity to have our committee also look
at that as one of their many issues.
The people who are serving on the school
year committee: two representatives from
the Manitoba Teachers' Society, Terry Clifford and Linda Asper; two
representatives from the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, Gail Watson
and Myrna Chapman; a representative from the Manitoba Association of School
Superintendents, George Wall; a representative from the Manitoba Federation of
Independent Schools, Gil Van Humbeck; a representative from the Home & School
& Parent‑Teacher Federation of Manitoba, Judy Aiken; two
representatives from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, Garth
Whyte and Ed Gallos; and two representatives from Manitoba Education and
Training, Leo McGinn and David Yeo, who acts in the capacity of secretary.
Mr. Chomiak: I thank the minister for those comments. I want to outline for her why I think it is
important that this matter be dealt with at this particular appropriation
number because it seems to me that clearly, from the Objectives and Activity
Identification that are outlined in the Supplementary Estimates book, this
branch of the department is to provide a prioritization policy direction, et
cetera, to the minister.
What I would next like to isolate from the
minister is if she could outline for me, therefore, the sort of top five
priorities of her department, and whether or not this particular matter is one
of those five.
Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I would just like to say to
the honourable member that the Department of Education and Training is a very
large department, and it would be very difficult to isolate five issues alone
even on the Kindergarten to 12 side of the department. In addition to Kindergarten to 12, or K to
12, we also have issues within the post‑secondary and training part of my
department including issues relating to the universities, issues relating to
the community colleges, issues relating to training, and that the general
priorities of the department are within the strategic plan. We do try to update those each year. So I am
wondering if the member would like me to be much more specific than that.
Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, yes, I would like the
minister to be much more specific, because I think that is one of the
fundamental flaws of the Department of Education. The Department of Education, both this
minister and the previous minister, said on a regular basis, that divisions and
all of those responsible for education in Manitoba must set their own
priorities and must fall under specific priorities and must develop their own
priorities. Ergo‑‑I rarely
use that word‑‑ergo, the Department of Education must have a list
of priorities, must identify those priorities, must deal with them, must
articulate them in order to allow all those involved in the education field to
plan their own priorities. Unless the
Department of Education does that specifically and concretely, then we will
continue to have a scatter‑gun approach to education in this province.
I might add to the minister that it is
only last year that the department finally, after much prodding, published a
five‑year strategic plan, and we welcomed the publication of that five‑year
strategic plan. I would like the
minister to specify the major priorities in the K‑to‑12 area for the
department.
*
(1650)
Mrs. Vodrey: I will be happy to talk about some of the
priorities in the Department of Education and Training. First of all the new courses and programs in
the K‑to‑12 side, curriculum revisions are underway by way of example
in the K‑to‑12 mathematics with an emphasis on skill
development. Plans are under way to
produce a province‑wide distance education calculus 305 course. We are looking to major improvements in the
science curriculum, revisions in the K‑to‑9 program there, a
teacher resource package K to 4 and 5 to 8 is under way. We are looking also at again new programs and
courses on the K‑to‑12 side; the Skills for Independent Living
program, which will be piloted next year in Senior 2; the English language arts
program, K to 12, a well‑recognized curriculum emphasizing outcomes in
oral and written language skills.
We are looking also at programs in AIDS
education, technical and vocational education; we are looking at more options
in this area, greater choice for students, expanding partnerships with business
and industry and more opportunities for work experience. In the K‑to‑12 side, the
department is working closely with MTS and with MAST in establishing an
advisory structure that relates specifically to curriculum development and
delivery.
Secondly, we are very interested in
academic standards on the K‑to‑12 side, and we have several
measures and strategies being taken to maintain or to enhance academic
strategies and very specifically, Madam Chairperson, the reading assessment in
1992 for Grades 4, 8, and 11 will be tested this year. Manitoba will also participate in the CMEC
National School Achievement Indicators Program where 13‑ and 16‑year‑olds
are scheduled to be assessed in 1993.
The development of the examinations in
mathematics is another way we have demonstrated our concern for academic
standard. The assessment unit of the
curriculum branch conducts comparison testing to ensure that student skills in
writing, in social studies, science, reading, and math are maintained. Testing results indicate that there has not
been a major decline over the years in those subject areas. Revisions are currently underway in the
mathematics K‑to‑8 area with emphasis, as I said, on skills
development and levels of competence.
The third area of priority, and these are
not necessarily in a priority, they are in a grouping of concerns, are students
at risk. I have spoken this week about
some of our initiatives for students at risk.
The department participates in the federal Stay in School program. This program includes a national advertising
campaign, involvement in the community, specific programs for students and
teachers and also some research.
Then, as I have spoken this week, the
department has established the student support branch. That was to consolidate departmental services
to students at risk throughout the province, and I will remind the member that
we are the only province in Canada which has designated a department to work
with the issue of students at risk. I
think that speaks to our particular commitment to that area.
The department also hosts the Manitoba‑based
program for secondary schools funded by the Walter and Duncan Gordon Charitable
Foundations. Secondary schools are
eligible to participate in the programming and that is aimed at improving
greater success for students.
Fourthly, another major concern has been
special needs students. This government
has increased the funding for special education for special needs
students. Manitoba is in the forefront
of delivering a comprehensive service delivery program. This program is flexible; it is seen as
nonlabeling; it ensures parental input.
The ADAP plan ensures accountability and effective planning at the
divisional level.
We also have a bilingual and bicultural
approach that is being completed at the Manitoba School for the Deaf,
recognizing deaf language and culture, a career exploration program at the
School for the Deaf. We have increased
interdepartmental collaboration, Manitoba guidelines, on reporting a child in
need of protection, and the interdepartmental Crisis Resource Committee for
children with severe behavioural disorders.
As the member mentioned in his opening remarks, the department's special
needs policy is recognized by other provinces as most comprehensive and
enabling.
We also have concerns on a fifth point
around drug education. In 1990, as the
member knows, the Premier announced drug education as a major initiative, and
there are several programs which are available to schools, Tuning into Health
for Grade 7‑9, an interdepartmental health promotion called Smoke Free
Grads 2000. The department is
represented on the provincial drug awareness committee and Teens Against Drunk
Driving, and that certainly also recognizes an area that affects the people of
Manitoba.
On the sixth point, we are also very
interested in violence issues, and that has been raised to me as minister in
the short time that I have been minister.
School divisions across the province are concerned about behavioural
violence, both among students and also within families, and we have acted on
that in terms of provision of in‑service for teachers and parents in
dealing with violent behaviour, provision of consultative services to
schools. The department has also
identified 65 educators who can act as resource persons for teaching youth
about anger management.
We have provision of curriculum support
document entitled Learning Activities to Prevent Violence Against Women. It is important to note that violence itself
is not an isolated phenomenon, and that the department has recognized that no
one course or one unit or one afternoon of professional development can fully
address it. So the department is
addressing violence in a broader context by working more closely with schools
to develop positive learning environments through the Student Support branch,
providing relevant courses such as Skills for Independent Living, providing
formal mechanisms for parental involvement and participation in decision making,
providing relevant curriculum support material dealing with violence against
women.
Another major initiative and priority
within the department is aboriginal education.
In that area we are looking at the revision of the K‑to‑12
curriculum guides for Cree, Ojibway and Dakota, provision of aboriginal career
awareness days. Intensive in‑services
for teachers of aboriginal children in consultation with native people and
native education policy is being developed.
A task force, and this is on the post‑secondary side, has been set
up at Red River Community College to make recommendations about how to serve
aboriginal students more effectively.
We have also been, in the area of
aboriginal education, concerned about self‑government, and in 1990 the
Premier (Mr. Filmon) in the throne speech indicated the government's support
for native self‑government. In
support of this the department's initiatives include First Nations'
representation on department committees to ensure native input on policies and
programs, the encouragement of native parent‑community participation in
education through workshops that focus on parents as partners in education,
decision‑making and community empowerment, support for Children of the
Earth aboriginal high school which operates under the joint governance of the
Winnipeg School Division and the urban aboriginal advisory council.
The Manitoba Metis Federation is
participating in tripartite negotiation around self‑determination with
the federal and the provincial government, and their proposal to establish the
Louis Riel Institute is one which has been under discussion.
I would also like to comment on our
concern No. 8 for sustainable development.
Manitoba Education and Training has identified sustainable development
as a department‑wide thrust through our strategic direction. Curriculum services is in the process of
integrating the principles of sustainable development into all of our existing
and developing curricula, and an action plan has been developed to implement
sustainable development initially into the K‑to‑12 science, social
studies and skills for independent living curriculum. The concept of sustainable development has
been introduced in the interim science curriculum guides for kindergarten to
Grade 9, and it will be strengthened when the guides are finalized.
A new certificate program will begin in
September '93, at Assiniboine College.
This is in the post‑secondary side, and this will train students
in technologies and materials for the construction of energy resource
conserving houses.
Number 9, Madam Chairperson, is women's
issues, and we have been very concerned, and some of the action that we have
taken is implementation of pay equity at the department and with school
divisions. Special programs, for
example, video tapes, awareness programs, career counselling, to encourage
young women to enroll in the sciences and technology. We have done a monitoring of all curriculum
for sexual stereotyping and sexist language, and the skills for independent
living course is designed to address women's issues. A video series, parent's guides, reading
materials have also been designed to meet the needs of aboriginal women.
The 10th issue is one of affirmative
action, and staffing authorizations include affirmative action strategy. We have also looked at the decentralization
success. Number 12 is the issue of
Francophone governance. Number 13, in
terms of priorities, a legislative reform process which I spoke about in my
opening remarks, and I expect to hear from that committee by the early
summer. Number 14, the new public school
education funding formula, and, again, describing that as a dynamic and
evolving formula, continuing to work with the advisory committee as well. So
those are, I believe, 14 of the initiatives and priorities that have been
identified on the K‑to‑12 side, as the member asked.
Madam Chairperson: Order, please.
The hour being 5 p.m., and time for private members' hour, committee
rise.
Call in the Speaker.
*
(1700)
IN SESSION
Committee
Report
Mrs. Louise Dacquay
(Chairperson of Committees): Mr.
Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me
to report progress and asks leave to sit again.
I move, seconded by the honourable member
for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received.
Motion agreed to.
PRIVATE
MEMBERS' BUSINESS
Mr. Speaker: The hour being 5 p.m., it is time for private
members' hour.
DEBATE ON
SECOND READINGS‑PUBLIC BILLS
Bill 16‑The
Health Care Directives Act
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member
for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), Bill 16, The Health Care Directives Act; Loi sur
les directives en matiere de soins de sante, standing in the name of the
honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain
standing? Leave? It is agreed.
Bill 18‑The
Franchises Act
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member
for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), Bill 18, The Franchises Act; Loi sur les
concessions, standing in the name of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek
(Mr. McAlpine). Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain
standing? Leave? It is agreed.
* * *
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member
for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), Bill 27, The Business Practices Amendment Act; Loi
modifiant la Loi sur les pratiques commerciales‑‑did I miss
25? I will come back to 25‑‑standing
in the name of the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).
Prior to recognizing the honourable member
for La Verendrye‑‑it appears he is ready to speak on this bill‑‑I
had inadvertently missed Bill 25, but I will come back to it‑‑[interjection]
To prevent some confusion, therefore, I
will go back to Bill 25.
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member
for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), Bill 25, The University of Manitoba Amendment Act;
Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'Universite du Manitoba, standing in the name of the
honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render).
Mrs. Shirley Render (St.
Vital): I am happy to put my thoughts on record. At some time or other during most of the
Question Periods here in the House, we usually hear members of the opposition
accuse or suggest that perhaps this side of the House does not always consult
before it implements things.
I find that really very hard to agree with
because I really believe that this government's approach is one of consultation
and is one of reviewing past practices and discussing the issues with a variety
of people before we do make any moves. I
guess this is why I do have trouble supporting this particular amendment,
because I understand that the member for Osborne did not consult with the
president of the Manitoba students' union.
Frankly, when an amendment affecting the
students and their role in the administration of the university is being
proposed and the member proposing the amendment has not consulted with the
president of UMSU, I have great difficulty in supporting this kind of an
amendment when this consultation process has not taken place. I think this is actually a rather unilateral
approach, and I do not think it is an approach that this government wants to
take.
Now knowing the member for Osborne (Mr.
Alcock), his background, and knowing that his background is in the field of
social services, I find it very surprising that he acted in this particular
manner because I think he is usually a very caring person, usually a very
thoughtful person. So I guess it was perhaps
just an oversight on his part that he did not consult with the president of the
Manitoba Students' Union.
Now along those same lines of consulting,
in fact that whole question of consulting with appropriate people, I think it
is important to remind the honourable member for Osborne that there is a
university review coming up. This
university review will be very wide in scope.
It will encompass a whole variety of issues, of topics, and I think it
is important for this government, in fact for all of us here in the House, to
do a very intensive kind of preview, of consulting with all varieties of people
who are going to be affected with any changes to the university.
Now our Minister of Education (Mrs.
Vodrey), as many of you know, her background is as a psychologist working in
the field of education, and her practice, her whole approach in anything that
she does is one of consulting with all the people who are going to be affected
by any particular action that she is going to be undertaking. So I am sure that I perhaps speak for her
when I say that likely she would not support a bill when the main people that
this bill is going to affect‑‑and I am talking about the students‑‑when
the head of the students' union has not even been approached, and this whole
concept of the amendment has not been discussed with him.
I understand also that this amendment has
not been discussed with the Board of Governors, and secondly, that the Board of
Governors does not have a formal position on it.
An Honourable Member: Oh, can you imagine that, Mr. Speaker?
Mrs. Render: Well, just for the member across the way whose
hearing I think slipped there for a moment, I understand that the member for
Osborne (Mr. Alcock) had also not discussed this proposed amendment with the
Board of Governors.
An Honourable Member: No.
Mrs. Render: Yes. So
as I say, members, I find it really surprising, the lack of consultation that
has taken place by the Liberal Party, because I think the Liberal Party is
usually very good about going out and talking with people. So, as I said earlier, I am sure it is just
an oversight, but it is an oversight that this side of the House really cannot
afford to overlook.
Also, I think it might be interesting to
note for the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that shortly after this
amendment was introduced the special assistant to the Minister of Education
(Mrs. Vodrey) spoke to the president of UMSU, and the president indicated that
he was quite satisfied with the present appointments, and he also expressed
surprise that the bill had been proposed, had been tabled here in the House
without his being consulted first.
Maybe this is a good point in time to look
at the system that is presently in place. [interjection]
Well, do not forget the 20,000 students do have somebody who represents them
and that is the president‑‑[interjection]
The president of the student's union is a political appointment? I perhaps think that the member is incorrect
there.
An Honourable Member: Misinformed.
Mrs. Render: Yes.
Okay, let me just get back to what I was
saying. Let me just clarify what is in
place right now. At the University of
Manitoba, as likely many of you know, the students have traditionally been
represented at the Board of Governors' level through the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council
appointments, and by convention, two Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council
appointments have been reserved for student representation, and the government,
this government, has continued the tradition of reserving two spots for students. Presently there are two student
representatives on the Board of Governors, and this does appear to be working
quite well.
*
(1710)
So I think the members opposite can understand
why we do not support this bill, because it is the policy and the practice of
this government to consult with all the people who are going to be affected by
the bill, and, in particular, I think there has to be consultation with the
president of the student union. As I
mentioned earlier, there is going to be a university review conducted, and this
review will be looking at all factors.
I think in fairness to the students, to
the administration, to the whole university system, rather than stepping in now
and making perhaps an ad hoc kind of decision, I think it is best to look at
the whole system and make it work properly.
Now, I just do want to say though that the
member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) has put forward a very interesting proposal,
and I am not being negative about it; I am simply suggesting that he has maybe
not done all of the homework required.
Really, I guess, the bottom line is that it does require much more
discussion, and I think it really is quite vital that this matter be discussed
in a proper fashion.
Now, I just want to talk a little bit more
generally about the University of Manitoba.
I do have an interest in the University of Manitoba. When I first attended university my degree‑‑[interjection] Well, some of‑‑
An Honourable Member: That is not that long ago, not that long ago
that you were there.
Mrs. Render: Not that long ago. Well, I am afraid it was that long ago that I
was there.
Some Honourable Members:
No.
Mrs. Render: Yes.
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Just the other year.
Mrs. Render: Just the other year, the Minister of Natural
Resources says.
An Honourable Member: Yes, but it seems like only yesterday.
Mrs. Render: Well, it seems like only yesterday that I was
at
An Honourable Member: I would not have said that.
Mrs. Render: You would not have said that?
So I do have an interest in how the
university is administered. I think I
can remember some of the people who were on the student council when I was at
university. In fact, one of the very key
people at United College when I was at United College is one of the key people
in the Liberal Party, and that was Lloyd Axworthy. I kid you not.
I feel it is very important that we make
sure that the students do have a voice in the administration of the
university. I know what happens if they
do not.
I think maybe I would just like to
conclude my remarks by saying that for this government university education is
very important. We believe that
education and training is a very important component of revitalizing things
here in Manitoba. We have four universities
here that I think all of us can be very proud of and, of course, the
administration of a university is very important to a university's success.
We all want to make sure that our
universities have a high credibility not only here in Canada but throughout
North America and throughout the world.
We feel that any changes that are made to
the university must be changes that are well thought out, that are discussed
with all parties that the change is going to affect and that rather than making
a quick change, a quick fix, when there does not seem to be any urgency that it
is far, far better to move slowly, to consult with all parties.
When I say all parties, I am not talking
political parties, I am talking about all parties at the university. In particular, the students must also be
consulted to have their thoughts and their concerns and their comments on
record, because it is only in that way are we going to be able to work with the
students and work with the administration to make sure that any changes that we
make are made in the best possible manner.
Mr. Speaker, I will close by saying, I do
not support the amendment, because there has not been proper consultation with
the parties involved. I suggest that
before any amendment is made that we do review the whole process and that it be
done in a very comprehensive fashion.
Thank you.
Mr. Jack Reimer
(Niakwa): I move, seconded by the member for St. Norbert
(Mr. Laurendeau), that debate now be adjourned.
Motion agreed to.
Bill 27‑The
Business Practices Amendment Act
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member
for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), Bill 27, The Business Practices Amendment Act; Loi
modifiant la Loi sur les pratiques commerciales, standing in the name of the
honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson).
Mr. Ben Sveinson (La
Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I do hope that everybody in this
Assembly gets the feeling that I am somewhat reluctant to get up and speak on
this bill. The reasoning is that I
really do believe that a lot of consultation and discussion again within the
caucus of the Liberal Party was not carried out. That is just my belief.
I do not say that loosely, and especially
when I am talking about a member‑‑not a member, but something put
forward by the member for The Maples, who usually puts considerable thought
into bills or resolutions or even comments that he puts forward. However, I
look at this bill, Mr. Speaker, and I have to question it somewhat. First of all, I would like to just kind of
talk about it for the reasons put forward of why this bill was put forward.
The first one that I can see possibly is
to protect employees who innocently commit an unfair business practice. As it is now, Mr. Speaker, the act tries to balance
the interests of all three parties‑‑consumer, the employee and the
employer. It does this by enabling
consumers to seek redress when they incur losses as a result of an unfair
practice. It also holds employers and
employees liable for unfair practices.
It holds employers liable for unfair practices of their employees, and
it enables the courts when determining penalties to consider that an employee
or employer did not intend to commit unfair practice and tried to avoid it.
Now considering these provisions and
considering that the courts do not generally hold innocent employees liable for
their actions, it is unlikely that an employee would be held liable under the
act if the courts believed the employee did not intend to commit the unfair
practice. The proposed amendment is an
attempt to ensure that innocent employees are not held liable under the
act. However, as the terms "good
faith" and "in the course of employment" are vague, they may be
interpreted differently in different courts.
Consequently, little or nothing is done to ensure the protection of an
innocent employee.
Giving the terms a specific definition
could create or would create a risk that some innocent employees will be held
liable because their conduct did not quite fall within that definition. Do you
understand? Are you listening? [interjection] Good.
*
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The proposed amendment may also be harmful
for consumers. The loose wording of the amendment may make it difficult to
satisfy a court that an employee acted in bad faith or outside the course of
employment, and the consumer may therefore be unable to recover funds obtained
by an employee through deception. It
creates that back and forth between the employer and employee that has been
really moved away from the way the act is set up right now. This could be a problem, particularly in such
cases as where employees operate with a high degree of autonomy as in the home
improvement work that is done, and where the employer may not be around when
the consumer seeks redress.
Rather than relying on vague terms or
trying to specify their meaning, it is probably better to leave the act as it
is now and let the determination of whether or not an employee is liable to be
based on the court's assessment of all circumstances surrounding the case. I gave the honourable member as much credit
as I possibly could and now I am trying to discuss with the members here‑‑
An Honourable Member: Actually, you give him too much credit.
Mr. Sveinson: Exactly.
Now, let us look at the other reasoning behind putting this
forward: to limit the director's
authority to refuse to mediate or investigate a complaint. Regarding this part of the amendment, to
limit the director's authority to refuse to mediate or investigate, the wording
of the proposed amendment infers that the Consumers' Bureau does or would like
to frequently refuse to deal with complaints.
There is just something that I would like
to read in a quote that I found here.
This was, in fact, I believe, put forward by the minister. The Consumers' Bureau has been in operation
for over 20 years and 80 percent of the activity it undertakes is mediation,
Mr. Speaker. This agency is not prone to
refusing to mediate. It indeed stakes
its reputation on being able to mediate.
It just brings me back to something that
happened to me a number of years back. I
had been out moose hunting and I did, in fact, get a beautiful moose, really a
beautiful set of horns on him. I took
this moose to a butcher shop and I asked him to cut it up and package it for
me, you know, nicely so that throughout the winter I can pull out a roast here
and there for my friends and relatives when they come over to visit. Moose meat incidentally is absolutely a
fantastic feast and some day maybe the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), if
he is nice, I will invite him over.
Getting back to the situation here, I took
this meat to a butcher shop and I asked him to package it up for me so I could
have it throughout the winter and eat it at my leisure or at our leisure. I get it all done up thinking it is all very
nice and I took it home and I put it in the freezer. About two to three months later I go to the
freezer to take out a package and I looked at it and there is freezer burn. I checked it closely, and there must have
been about a half an inch of freezer burn in this meat.
I do not know if any of you have tried to
chew meat that has freezer burn, but believe me it kind of resembles that of a
rag.
An Honourable Member: Did you phone up the minister? Did you phone up Gary?
Mr. Sveinson: No, no, I did not.
I took the meat and I went back to the
butcher shop. I took this meat and I
went back to the butcher shop, and I was very nice. I asked the butcher, the person in charge of
the butcher shop, what he could do for me, because this was absolutely
unacceptable, and indeed I was looking forward to enjoying that moose meat, I
really was. I was looking forward to it.
At any rate, he got quite smart with me
and I was taken aback really, because I was not being mean. I was not being at all smart. He said, well, you know, there is nothing I
can do for you; it is not my fault. I
said, well, just a minute now, understand something. I came in here trying to be nice, trying to
give you the opportunity to address this situation, and you turn mean on me and
want to push me out of the place. I
said, how about if I call the Consumers' Bureau. Well, he said, just a minute, I am sure we
can do something for you. I said, well,
okay, that sounds better.
Do you know, Mr. Speaker, he in fact
replaced every pound of that meat, as it had been weighed before, with
beef. Now, I did express my
disappointment on the fact that I had wanted moose meat. This happened to be beef. But being a person that is not trying to be
smart or nasty, I accepted the meat and took it home, but just mentioning that
I might go to the Consumers' Bureau all of a sudden changed it‑‑no,
it actually just brought him back to the fact that he should be looking after
the situation.
It also shows me that the Consumers'
Bureau, in fact, is respected and has done an awful lot of good over the, I
believe it is 20 years. What I am trying
to say here also is, and getting back to the‑‑
An Honourable Member: You better hurry up, Ben. You are running out of time.
Mr. Sveinson: Could not be.
Getting back to the idea of mediation and
how much mediation they actually do is key here. It is indeed that they stake their reputation
on mediation and in some cases, like I mentioned and pointed out, you do not even
have to get to that point. It is a
matter of, okay, and we address the problem.
This is far from reality. The
bureau tries to resolve all complaints that come before it unless it is clear
that the complaint can be better handled under some other law.
As the act is very new, the director's
discretion to refuse to mediate or investigate should be left as it is until
more experience with the act is gained.
Now that is very sensible, I think.
If it later appears that the discretion should be limited in some way,
the act should be amended at that point, but with more understanding of how it
should be amended. Limiting refusals to
those complaints the director considers to be invalid would create problems. For example, what the director may consider
to be invalid may be considered to be very valid by the consumer who would
ultimately determine what is and what is not valid and on what basis. I have to question why one would wish to open
up this kind of a situation.
*
(1730)
The existing act is not without checks and
balances. Consumers can refer a refusal to the deputy minister, the minister
and, of course, the Ombudsman. Mr.
Speaker, I think the amendment, while well intended possibly, will do little to
improve the administration of this act and in fact may create a greater
impediment for the director to try to carry out the mandate of that act. I would hope that the honourable member for
The Maples (Mr. Cheema) would withdraw this bill with the understanding that a
real need is not yet evident.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Marcel Laurendeau
(St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the
honourable member for
Motion agreed to.
Bill 31‑The
Municipal Amendment Act
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member
for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), Bill 31, The Municipal Amendment Act; Loi
modifiant la Loi sur les municipalites, standing in the name of the honourable
member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose).
Mr. Bob Rose (
So it is a pleasure for me this afternoon
to take advantage of that opportunity on Bill 31, and I say that for two
reasons. One I have just expressed, that it is an honour to be able to
contribute to the debate on this bill, but it is also an opportunity for me as
a relatively newly elected MLA to participate in a discussion on a subject that
was discussed before this Chamber just a year ago since the time of the last
election.
All of you, of course, I am sure if you
reflect back will remember when you first came to this Chamber, that many of
the things that were considered the background and the history of those debates
and subjects were not something that you were necessarily familiar with. Here is a situation where within less than a
year we already have a bill come forward discussing a subject that we discussed
less than a year ago.
You will recall that because we did debate
in this Chamber and in committee and finally passed an amendment to clarify the
already existing legislation, that legislation, as I am sure you are all aware,
addresses the residency requirement of anyone seeking office in a municipal
jurisdiction. The legislation says that
the resident must have residency for six months to be able to allow their name
to stand for an officer of the municipal corporation.
However, of course, in recognition of our
resort areas in Manitoba, those areas that we all are extremely proud of and
like to promote with attraction for tourism as well as an opportunity for all
of us to get out and enjoy some of the natural beauty that we have in Manitoba
and in recognition of those kinds of resort areas where there are any number of
folks who have cabins in the area, the resort areas of Winnipeg Beach,
Dunnottar and Victoria Beach, that legislation is an exception to the
legislation, if you like, of the requirement of only two months residency to
qualify to let their name stand for candidacy for the municipal corporation.
An Honourable Member: A noble venture, too.
Mr. Rose: A very noble venture. The purpose a year ago, when we moved to
clarify this legislation, was to, as I say, clarify it because what the
legislation said was that residency requirement was two months and no one knew
what that meant. Did it mean that over a
period of 12 months or 365 days that the individual had to only be in residence
for a total of two months or 60 days or, if you take February as an example,
only 28 days and another 30 for 58 days?
It did cause considerable confusion because no one was quite sure what
it meant.
The purpose a year ago, of course, was to
clarify what was actually meant by two months of residency. The amendment last year was to add the word
"consecutive" to the legislation to say that the requirement was two
months consecutive residency to qualify.
Now, we are debating a bill, Mr. Speaker, that would in effect repeal
that amendment and revert back to simply saying two months. There is an interesting difference I think in
the debate because no longer are we clarifying what an amendment meant or what
the legislation meant. What we are doing
is actually saying that there is only a two‑month requirement. Before there was some confusion.
The movement a year ago was to clarify as
to what it actually meant. Now, by going
through this action of bringing in a further amendment, and if this amendment
passed we would actually be saying that all that is required is a two‑months
residency, a cumulative two‑months residency.
I have great difficulty with that, Mr.
Speaker. I am not sure how you identify
two months cumulative over a year. What
does it include? Does it include a cross‑country
ski afternoon in the area? Does it
include camping, perhaps setting up the tent down in the campground for a few
evenings? Does it count going out to
open the cottage, maybe just an afternoon to require that.
The honourable member for Niakwa (Mr.
Reimer) points out perhaps you would be out picking blueberries and dodging the
bear. Does that count? Does that indicate that you are a resident of
the area? How do we keep track of
this? Is each resident required to keep a
diary or a time clock that when they show up in the area, they can say, well, I
was here for three hours today and four hours last week and another 12 hours,
so that is almost 24 hours. How do you
count a day? Is it the 12 hours of
daylight at the spring and fall equinox, or is it the eight hours of daylight
in the shortest day of the year?
So I think it is very, very difficult, Mr.
Speaker, to identify and to keep track of what actually would be two months
cumulative residence.
An Honourable Member: You could probably put up a time clock,
Bob. You know, the City of Winnipeg is
proposing a toll booth to come in and out of Winnipeg. Well, they could put up a toll booth there at
camp, and punch in when they come in.
Mr. Rose: There is a suggestion that might alleviate that
problem of how to keep track, if there was a toll booth or a time clock set
up. When each resident came back they
could check in and again check out and keep this on a card, and it could be
recorded at the time a municipal election is called, that this particular
resident was, on a cumulative, adding all the hours and minutes and actual time
that they drove through the area, they might be considered to be residents. [interjection]
I can see, now we are into the subject
that there are any number of ideas that might address this problem, but I
suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it would take considerable time to choose which
would be the best and, as the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr.
Laurendeau) suggests, that we really should study it a little bit longer, and
perhaps it could be a jobs fund type of thing that the NDP brought in a decade
or so ago, where they were counting flowers along the highway and measuring the
streets. At the same time, if their
attention was not totally controlled by counting flowers or measuring the
streets, they could look up and watch the cars go by and record as to whether
this was a resident and mark down as a cumulation of two months residency.
Mr. Speaker, I think that this is a
serious problem for the people in these areas and we do not want to treat it
too lightly, but I think that we have recognized in the legislation now that
the three areas in the province affected do have residents who want to be
involved in the local municipal politics.
We have recognized that by changing the normal requirement from six
months to two months.
*
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I was very interested in the contribution
a few days ago to this debate on this bill by the honourable member for Emerson
(Mr. Penner) and the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). They pointed out
the responsibilities that municipal governments have and members of the municipal
governments have‑‑the mayors, the reeves, the councillors. They pointed out that these are not things
that happen just in a certain period of time, but they are ongoing
responsibilities, something that happened year around.
I have not personally had experience with
municipal corporations, or at least I have never served as a councillor or a
reeve, but both my father and my brother served many long years as both reeves
and councillors of our local municipality, so I was certainly able to observe what
the demands were on their time.
I particularly recall when I was working
on the farm as a young fellow and my father was reeve of the local
municipality, it seemed to me that, and perhaps I was wrong about it, every
time there was a difficult task or a dirty task or something that required a
considerable amount of physical labour on the farm, that when we got up in the
morning and we laid out the days work and we would get these very difficult and
dirty and hard‑working tasks laid out, my father would suddenly remember
that there was a road somewhere or a culvert or a bridge or a welfare problem
or a problem with fire prevention in the municipality. It always seemed to be that these problems
popped up at the time when there was particularly difficult and hard work to do
at home.
You know, sometimes your memory plays
tricks on you, and sometimes things were not as you really thought they were
when you were growing up. We all
remember the terrible storms we used to get when we were small, and the drifts in
the yards were always way over our heads, and you do not see that much anymore.
The drifts in the yards are over my grandchildren's head, but they are not over
my head any more.
My father was reeve of the municipality
for 20 years, and I know that in that 20 years the tasks and the
responsibilities and the demands on his time were not confined to just a month
or two in the summer or the odd day in the winter. They were something that there were demands
and responsibilities that were ongoing and actually daily demands.
I think, Mr. Speaker, that surely it is
not too much to ask for anyone who wants to serve his community to require that
they have two consecutive months of residence.
They need that to get a sense of what is going on in the community. They need that to have a sense of what is
needed in the community. They need to
have that length of time to get some sense of how the residents think, not only
the ones that are there for the summer or there for a vacation or there for
just the weekends or for summer holidays, but also those people who are
permanent residents of the area, by spending a length of time like two months
to get that opportunity to get to know every one of the people that will be
asking them to serve on their behalf.
In a larger sense, Mr. Speaker, I think
this is perhaps a symptom of some of the problems that we have in Canada
today. We talk about alienation and the
lack of understanding across this great land of ours, from the Atlantic to the
Pacific, and the different viewpoints and the different ideas and the different
ambitions that our residents who are Canadians have from sea to sea. I think it perhaps explains part of the
alienation among Canadians, between the Prairies and the Maritimes and the two
major provinces in our country, Ontario and Quebec.
So often, particularly in the federal
area, but even in the provincial area as well, we hear our local residents say,
what happens to our elected people, they seem to disappear, they go to Ottawa
and they no longer represent us, they become involved in that milieu that is in
Ottawa and they forget what their grassroots are and where they came from. I can say that too provincially, because for
those of us who come from rural areas, when the House is in session the demands
on our time require us to be here most of the time and we do lose touch with
what is going on and what people are actually thinking back home in the rural
areas.
So elected people tend to disappear, and
that is one of the reasons, Mr. Speaker, why we have these local forms of
government like school boards and municipalities and town councils, because
they are there and they live there and they stay there and they understand
daily what the concerns are of their citizens, what they think and what is
needed and how they are there daily to address the problems that arise. We have drainage and garbage and so many
municipal problems that are daily problems that need to be addressed by people
who are familiar with the area.
I think we must move more in that direction,
Mr. Speaker, that we must continue to move towards more local autonomy or at
least more local government to allow all our citizens to feel that they are
part of the process and to lessen the alienation. Anything less than two months‑‑
Mr. Speaker: The honourable member's time has expired.
Mr. Jack Reimer
(Niakwa): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that debate be now adjourned.
Motion agreed to.
Bill 50‑The
Beverage Container Act
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Leader
of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), Bill 50, The Beverage Container Act;
Loi sur les contenants de boisson, standing in the name of the honourable
member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). Stand?
An Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr. Speaker: Leave? It
is agreed.
Bill 51‑The
Health Services Insurance Amendment Act
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member
for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), Bill 51, The Health Services Insurance Amendment
Act; Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'assurance‑maladie, standing in the name
of the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau). Stand?
An Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr. Speaker: Is there leave?
Leave. It is agreed.
Bill 54‑The
Consumer Protection Amendment Act
Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member
for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), Bill 54, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act; Loi
sur la protection du consommateur, standing in the name of the honourable
member for
An Honourable Member: Stand.
Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain standing?
Leave. It is agreed.
SECOND
READINGS‑PUBLIC BILLS
Mr. Speaker: Are we proceeding with Bill 36? No, okay.
Are we proceeding with Bill 56?
No, okay. Are we proceeding with Bill
66? No, okay.
Bill 77‑The
Liquor Control Amendment Act
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Radisson
(Ms. Cerilli), that Bill 77, The Liquor Control Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la
Loi sur la reglementation des alcools), be now read a second time and be
referred to a committee of this House.
Motion presented.
*
(1750)
Mr. Hickes: Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to
introduce this bill because the people in
Before I get into the bill, I would just
like to commend the government for their action on the muscle relaxant problem
that we had in the past. The government
acted very responsibly and took it off the shelves and now it is only sold
through pharmacies. Now, when I walk in
the area, visiting constituents and stuff, you do not see the bottles of empty
muscle relaxant that I used to see lying around which harmed a lot of people
and a lot of lives.
Now, the new problem that we have facing
us today is with the Chinese cooking wine.
It has 38 percent alcohol content.
The purpose of it is not for people to consume as alcohol and to
drink. The real purpose is to be used
for cooking. The people who use this
product for the right purposes should not need be penalized in any way by any
changes or amendments to The Liquor Control Act, because the community that
uses it in their own homes‑‑probably some of us members here do and
also the restaurants. When we talk about
introducing it into liquor stores and getting it off the shelves of the corner
stores, it is to take the easy access away from the individuals who are abusing
this product, who are harming themselves and their families and their children.
(Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the
Chair)
So, Mr. Acting Speaker, when we talk about
introducing it into liquor stores, we are not saying introduce it as drinkable
alcohol and put the sin tax that applies to alcohol products. That is not the
whole purpose of this bill. This bill is
to get it off the shelves and list it as cooking wine, which it is meant to
be. So if it is to be used in the proper
context of cooking and not for consumption, there is no reason to have to tax
it as an alcoholic beverage, because that is not the purpose of it.
Some of the members in the community were
concerned about that. They were saying,
we get it for X number of dollars now, and if it is sold through the liquor
stores as an alcohol product, the price is going to go that much higher. I cannot see any reason for that happening
because it is not for drinking. It
should state right on the bottle that it is a nonpotable product and it is not
potable. It would only take a sign
stating, for cooking purposes and not for drinking.
The minister had a very good idea, which I
thought was an excellent idea, and I hope she will follow through with it,
because whatever form it takes for people to have access to this cooking wine
for the purposes of cooking, whether it is through a liquor outlet, which we on
this side are recommending, but whatever shape it takes, is that they would
develop a little sticker, like where you have a Ghostbuster thing where you
have no smoking and stuff, and if they had that with, say, a bottle‑‑[interjection] Yes, if they could just
stick those to the bottles, then people would identify. Whether they can speak English or read English
or not, people understand that all over Canada, what that sign means; it means
no.
So if they show that no drinking‑‑when
I was in brief conversation with her, I mentioned to her, I thought it was
really an excellent idea, and it would not be that costly because if it is out
of the liquor stores and you have to stamp the price anyway on them, you just
stick these little stickies on them, or even on your sign, you could have a big‑‑you
know where it says, cooking wine, and you have one of these big stickers right
on there that shows that it is not for drinking purposes.
The reason that the community activists
are very, very concerned is because within the last four months we have seen
four deaths just related to this one cooking wine that has 38 percent alcohol
content and a very, very high content of salt which dehydrates the individuals
and they get more thirsty and they drink more of it. The next thing you know, they are upside down
in the morgue somewhere.
So that is why the community got very
upset. But that is one product, and I
fully understand that this is only one tip of the iceberg. Once you get that, if you are able to be successful,
if the minister‑‑hopefully she will be able to do it‑‑gets
that product off the shelves, the people will find something else. We are dealing with one brand, Chinese
cooking wine; next thing could be German cooking wine, it could be a product
from Holland or what have you.
That is why we are saying all cooking wines
or cooking liquors that contain more than 19 percent alcohol content. If you go back and look at a lot of the
people that are facing this very serious problem that we have today, you just
look at our whole economy. We have
59,098 people out of work today. That is
59,098 that have no jobs, and a lot of them have no hope. So when you are feeling low and your self‑esteem
is low, a lot of times individuals will turn to substance abuse or alcoholism
and you have family breakdowns, and on and on and on. The next thing you know, it escalates, and
then you will see people that end up on skid row somewhere, whether it is in
Main Street of Winnipeg or Vancouver or Toronto or wherever.
A lot of those individuals had not started
out that way. A lot of the individuals
that you see were very productive individuals.
They lost their way somewhere down the path, and a lot of the time it is
because they either lost a job or marital breakdown or something happened to
them that hurt them very dearly. In
order to hide and escape that pain, they started indulging in drugs, and some
individuals would start indulging in alcohol and suppress that feeling. Eventually, that would escalate on and on and
on until a person would be totally, totally helpless. That is what we see happening.
A lot of those people that you see going
into the corner stores or wherever they can access any alcohol product or
content, when they wake up in the morning or if they were drinking all night, a
lot of them are looking very, very seriously for a drink at seven o'clock, six
o'clock in the morning. If there is an
appropriate honest business person that is operating a corner store, what have
you, the only reason they open at seven o'clock in the morning is to have
access to the individuals that need that fix in the morning. That is the only purpose, but this way, if it
was in liquor stores, the liquor stores would not normally open until ten or
eleven o'clock.
I know, we all know that this is only the
tip of the iceberg, like I mentioned.
They will find another product, so this way, if they do find another
product, I hope, I would strongly recommend to the minister of the MLCC to
seriously look at and discuss with her colleagues raising the fines that these
individuals face because, under the act right now, unless something is changed
or amended, the police cannot lay fines, or it is useless for them to spend
$500 to charge an individual that gets fined $50 or $100, and in one day they
are open again, because in one morning they make enough profit to pay that fine
anyway. That is very discouraging for
concerned citizens of Manitoba and the people who work very hard to try and
hopefully help these people that have lost their way to overcome the hurdles
and get hopefully some treatment or some help in order to turn their lives
around and become productive citizens.
Right now they are lost. They do not know where they fit in. If we had a serious fine‑‑Alberta
has $15,000. If we had the same, say
$15,000 or $25,000, you would only have to fine one or two businesses and the
rest would get the message and they would think twice. It is not hard to tell when you are a store
owner, someone walking into a store, if they are going to be buying a product,
whether it is for cleaning a floor or drinking.
It is not that hard to tell. If
you have any doubts and if you are scared of a $25,000 or a $15,000 fine, then
you explain to that individual. You say,
I am not sure you are going to use this product for the way it was meant to be,
so I cannot sell it to you, or that individual could say, well, no, I am really
using it to clean my floors, or I am cooking‑‑
The Acting Speaker (Mr.
Laurendeau): Order, please.
When this matter is again before the House, the honourable member for
Point Douglas will have five minutes remaining.
The hour being 6 p.m. this House is
adjourned and stands adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow (Friday).