LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY OF
Wednesday,
April 8, 1992
The House met at 1:30
p.m.
PRAYERS
ROUTINE
PROCEEDINGS
PRESENTING
PETITIONS
Mr. Daryl Reid
(Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Jim Silver, Deborah Smith, Tim Sale and others requesting the Minister of
Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Gwen Sveinson, Tracey Haarsma, Darcie Andres and others requesting the Minister
of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the
Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is substantial
likelihood of further family violence.
Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The
Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of
Raymond E. Sinclair, Walter G. Murdock, Oliver T. Flett and others requesting
the government consider funding the Abinochi preschool program to ensure it
continues to operate.
Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin).
It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies
with the rules (by leave). Is it the
will of the House to have the petition read?
The petition of the undersigned citizens
of the
THAT the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was
launched in April of 1988 to conduct an examination of the relationship between
the justice system and aboriginal people; and
The AJI delivered its report in August of
1991 and concluded that the justice system has been a massive failure for
aboriginal people; and
The AJI report endorsed the inherent right
of aboriginal self‑government and the right of aboriginal communities to
establish an aboriginal justice system; and
The Canadian Bar Association, The Law
Reform Commission of
On January 28, 1992, five months after
releasing the report, the provincial government announced it was not prepared
to proceed with the majority of the recommendations; and
Despite the All‑Party Task Force
Report which endorsed aboriginal self‑government, the provincial
government now rejects a separate and parallel justice system, an Aboriginal
Justice Commission and many other key recommendations which are solely within
provincial jurisdiction.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislature of the
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(1335)
I have reviewed the petition of the
honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen).
It complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies
with the rules. Is it the will of the House
to have the petition read?
The petition of the undersigned citizens of
the
THAT the bail review provisions in the
Criminal Code of
The problem of conjugal and family
violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a
multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and
children, be protected from further harm.
WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray
that the Legislature of the
Introduction
of Guests
Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the
attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us
this afternoon His Excellency Njuguna Mahugu, the high commissioner of
Also with us this afternoon, in the
Speaker's Gallery, is Mr. Colin Maxwell, who is executive director of the
Canadian Wildlife Federation. On behalf
of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon.
Seated with us this afternoon in the
public gallery, from the Native Business Management Skills Program, we have 21
students. They are under the direction of Carolee Batycki. This school is located in the constituency of
the honourable member for
ORAL
QUESTION PERIOD
Economic
Growth
Government
Strategy
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of
Finance.
In November of 1990 and December of 1990
our Minister of Finance made glowing predictions through Hansard. His words are all the way through Hansard
predicting the recession is going to end; the recovery is just around the
corner; the recession is over, Mr. Speaker.
Then, of course, came the spring of 1991, and we had the same glowing
predictions from our Minister of Finance.
Happy days are here again; the recession is over; the recovery will take
place;
Again, in this last budget of 1992, we
have the same familiar words from our Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness),
whistling past the economic graveyard, slowly but surely: a renewed sense of optimism is building in
My question to the Minister of Finance
is: What hope can he give the thousands
of Manitobans that are unemployed and the growing thousands of people who are
on social assistance in the
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Minister of Finance): Well, Mr. Speaker, I
feel badly that the member has resorted once again to selectively quote
information. My budget, in the
appendices of course, forecast growth in the province beyond 2 percent. That was on the basis of an average of all
the forecasters. I am led to believe
that there is some downgrading taking place across
I would hope within the course of the next
three or four weeks that I will have a revised number of the average of all the
private forecasting that I can share with the member. TD is the first. I can indicate that there are significant
changes going to come from the Conference Board in their estimates and
forecasts, particularly as it deals with some of the
So I do not expect that
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(1340)
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, hopefully, the other forecasts
will be more favourable to the province.
The Minister of Finance is correct that
the predictions are now being made not only for
My question to the Minister of Finance is
again the same question. You told us two
years ago that the recovery was around the corner. You told us last year that we were going to
lead the way out of the recession in
What hope does this government have and
what strategies does it have, except for being wrong on their predictions, what
strategy do they have to get Manitobans working again and to get people off
social assistance that are employable?
Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, one thing when you make a
prediction, it is almost 100 percent sure you are going to be wrong. You are either going to miss it too high, or
you are going too low. I mean that is
the nature of forecasting‑‑[interjection] You would be 100 percent that way too. Yes, everybody is.
To answer the question, we have been
watching very carefully as other provinces have brought down budgets across
I would say the only provinces in
I say to the member that obviously we have
a different philosophy here. He wants
this province to continue to borrow hundreds of millions of dollars in support
of increased deficit. He wants us to continue to defer taxes, but taxes
nevertheless, Mr. Speaker. Right today
one of the greatest handicaps to businesses who are creating jobs are the tax
levels of this provinces vis‑a‑vis jurisdictions to the south.
I would say to him, I would think that he
would want us to do everything within our power to hold back government
spending so that we could reduce even further the tax load, so that indeed
people and entrepreneurs could come forward, create jobs and create the
economic well‑being that he wishes and indeed the government of
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest the Minister of
Finance read the Provincial Auditor's report on year‑end statements for
the last four years. He will find we
have gone from a $55‑million operating surplus in the financial affairs
of the province to a $530‑million deficit, so he should not lecture
members opposite on the financial situation of this province. He should stop that kind of charade in this
province.
I would note that the
We have a major downgrading of our growth
predictions for 1992. That has major
implications on the unemployment rates of this province. It has major implications on the number of
people on social assistance, a number that has necessitated a $90‑million
increase in expenditures in two budgets for the many people who are employable
on social assistance. It will provide
reduced revenue to the government, reduced opportunity for our people, reduced
opportunities for our people who are requiring services.
My question to the minister is: Is he just going to talk about right and
wrong predictions, or is he going to come in with a strategy to get Manitobans
working again and getting people off the vicious cycle of social assistance for
employable people?
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(1345)
Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I am not the one talking about
forecasts. It was the Leader of the
Opposition who brought forward the forecast issue, very selectively, I might
add.
I would say to him, if he wants to look at
the ranking, he will see that
Mr. Speaker, I gather in their silence
what they want is the government to borrow hundreds of millions of more dollars
to add to the deficit increasing taxes along the line.
Health
Care System
Anesthetist
Review
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
A year ago they found themselves unhappy
with that study and brought in outside consultants to study the matter. That study was done about 10 months ago. It was released on March 30 to CEOs and heads
of departments in our urban hospitals, and then those hospitals were given 36
hours to roll back the sessional rates in the hospitals of Brandon, Grace, Misericordia
and
I want to ask the minister if he will put
these arbitrary, high‑handed decisions on hold until the community
hospitals, until the professionals, until the anesthetists have had a chance to
respond to the report, provide some input and give some advice to this
government.
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, in the
initial stages of her preamble, I believe, was critical of the time in which it
took us to come to some recommended solution to the difficult problem we have
with the recruitment retention and rates of remuneration for anethesiologists
in the
I distinctly recall her being critical of
it taking two years. Now when we have a
report which has been a substantial amount of time in its development, with
wide discussion and consultation involvement of expertise, and we take action on
that, my honourable friend says you are acting too quickly and you should study
it some more.
Mr. Speaker, the issue is very, very
complex, and it has been two years in the making to come to those kinds of
hopeful solutions that will work. Unless
my honourable friend has a suggestion on how better to resolve the problem,
which I did not detect in that rather lengthy preamble, I am afraid I have to
abide by the best advice we could obtain in almost two years of discussion,
study and consultation around the issue.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister
was: Why, after spending two years
studying this matter, did this minister and this government then give our urban
hospitals 36 hours to respond to two serious situations, one, the rollback in
obstetrical anesthesia sessional rates at
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, all of those institutions were
part of the consultation process to understand the dynamics of the problem and
to help create a solution. I will admit
that any solution offered by government around the sensitive area of compensation
to physicians is never received with applause unless you pour more money at it.
What we tried to do was arrive at the most
reasoned solution possible, bringing together expert advice and consultation,
work with the professionals, work with the facilities to come to a solution,
which we asked the hospitals, yes, to implement very quickly, because we were
under pressure from those same hospitals to come to a decision of government
that they could implement.
Mr. Speaker, unless my honourable friend
has some solution, other than the one that was proposed, that is better and
will solve the problem quicker, other than the traditional response of pour
more money at the system, I suggest my honourable friend ought to read the
report, consult carefully with the issue to make sure that she understands that
we have probably arrived at the most reasoned solution to a difficult problem.
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(1350)
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: It is a very serious situation‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member kindly put your question,
please.
Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I want to ask the Minister of Health, what
impact will this kind of policy of confrontation of this government have on
patient care, have on needed surgery, have on services that people of
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the
professionals who provide anesthesiology service will work with government as
this solution hopefully resolves a number of outstanding issues.
Secondly, I would hope that within the
distribution mechanism that the MMA, as the union bargaining on behalf of all
physicians, that distribution mechanism as we have tried to achieve for
approximately three years with the MMA, would recognize a greater share of the
pie to go to anesthesiologists who are relatively underpaid in the
Simply coming to government saying the
solution we have arrived at is wrong, without a better one, is hardly
appropriate in today's context, Mr. Speaker.
Emergency
Ward Closure
Mr. Gulzar Cheema (The
Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister
of Health.
On January 15 of this year, the Minister
of Health issued a news release about the Urban Hospital Council, which he
established in 1991. The minister's
release said that the Urban Hospital Council had approved the recommendation to
close the emergency ward of
Mr. Speaker, the working group said that
it was opposed to the closing of the Misericordia emergency ward, and it said
that many of the recommendations, and I quote, had been made with inadequate
statistics.
Can the Minister of Health tell us‑‑according
to this group, his own group, the decision is not medically sound, it is not
financially sound‑‑why he is proceeding with this recommendation?
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, when I held the press conference
with the Urban Hospital Council in January, some of the examples of issues‑‑well,
all of the issues being studied were laid out.
One of the issues that was laid out was the closure of emergency
departments from, I think, it is 10 p.m. to 8 a.m. Even one hospital was suggested to undertake
that.
That recommendation has come in and is
before the Urban Hospital Council. Now
the normal process‑‑and I simply indicate to my honourable friend
that this is one of the decisions that I hope the Urban Hospital Council will
advance as a recommendation, one way or another, in the very near future, but
the process is not complete. I have not
been asked by the
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(1355)
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, we have said many times that we
will help the minister on health care reform, and this decision by his own
group is not medically sound and not financially sound.
Can the minister tell this House today,
according to his own judgment, does he still favour this decision or not?
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to my
honourable friend, that is exactly the kind of process that we put those
recommended courses of actions through at the
The feedback on the feasibility of any
recommended course of action is given to the Urban Hospital Council. If in their expert opinion it will work, I
would suspect they will pass that recommendation on for implementation, for
consideration of implementation to myself.
Government ultimately will make that decision.
Now if as my honourable friend says, the
experts in the system question the medical effectiveness of that decision or its
cost, then I would think the Urban Hospital Council would be very cautious in
making that kind of a recommendation to government as government would be in
accepting it, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, can the minister make a promise
in this House that in future such a major decision must be released in this
House by the minister, not by us?
Mr. Orchard: I hate to use farmer vernacular, but my
honourable friend has the cart before the horse, because I do not know how many
times I have to tell my honourable friend that the Urban Hospital Council has
not recommended a decision on emergency ward or emergency department hours of
operation‑‑period and paragraph.
One of the recommendations from the study
group was to consider closing. That has
been through that consultation process that was just urged upon me by the first
opposition party. Mr. Speaker, the
essence of that consultation will guide the Urban Hospital Council to a
recommendation to be made to me, I hope, in the near future. When that is given to me, I will gladly, as I
indicated in Estimates yesterday and the day before, share it with my
honourable friend.
Dutch Elm
Disease Program
Provincial
Funding
Ms. Jean Friesen
(Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Natural
Resources.
The City of
My question for the minister is: What evidence leads the minister to believe
that his reduction of 50 percent of the funding for this program will enable us
to maintain those tolerable loss rates?
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(1400)
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.
Speaker, first of all, let me commend the honourable member because she does
understand the problem and she asks the appropriate question. We cannot do anything other than restrict and
hopefully delay the onslaught of the disease.
Best professional evidence says that if we can keep the diseased and
dying trees to below the 2 percent level, then we in Winnipeg‑‑and
I might say we have done in this instance a much better job than many other
jurisdictions across the North American continent in controlling this disease‑‑are
doing the right thing.
It is precisely the question that she asks
that I am fully prepared to examine. I
am fully prepared to review the current level of support for the Dutch elm
disease program, and if my professional advisers, forestry advisers in the City
of Winnipeg or indeed in the Department of Forestry in my department, tell me
that I am putting at risk of exceeding that 2 percent level, then as I have
said before, I believe, in this House, I am prepared to revisit the level of
funding currently established in the budget exercise.
Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for that.
I would like the minister to acknowledge
that part of the program's success is due to the fact that the City of Winnipeg
has substantially increased its funding and that whereas the $700,000
provincial grant of 1989 was 48 percent of the total required, but in 1990 that
700,000 was only 35 percent of what was necessary to maintain this tolerable
loss rate of less than 2 percent.
Mr. Enns: Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member
makes it difficult for me to respond, because far be it for me to take on
prominent urban Tories on this question of fighting Dutch elm disease, not to
mention the wife of a former Leader of mine, now a senator, or indeed others
who have expressed concern about this.
But I want to assure the honourable member that us little farm folks,
woodlands ranchers have perhaps even a deeper and greater understanding of this
problem.
That is why we are fighting Dutch elm
disease in 41 rural municipalities and are adding to that another five municipalities
while I stand, Mr. Speaker, which is something that honourable members opposite
sometimes in their urban flavour forget that that Dutch elm disease does not
know borders, is not just contained to the city of Winnipeg.
It is an important issue in the city of
Ms. Friesen: Will the minister then make the commitment to
review that program to increase the funding so that the 5,000 dead elms which
are the real danger to the riverbanks and to the rural municipalities, can be
treated, removed‑‑
Some Honourable Members:
Oh, oh.
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Ms. Friesen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask the minister to make the
commitment to restore the funding so that the dead elms that are along the
riverbanks can be removed in ways that they could not be removed last year
because of inadequate funding, and so that the municipalities and the city
along the rivers, the
Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, my colleague the Minister of
Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) reminds me, and correctly so, that this government
increased the overall funding to the City of
It is entirely within the purview of the
City of
Chinese
CookingWine
Mr. George Hickes (Point
Today we have learned that another
Manitoban is believed to have died as a result of consumption of Chinese
cooking wine. Community groups have repeatedly called on the government to
respond to the growing problem of abuse of this product by restricting its
sales in a manner that would prevent misuse.
Will the Minister responsible for the
Liquor Control Commission inform the House what action her department will be
taking to address this issue?
Hon. Linda McIntosh
(Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Point
Douglas for his question and his concern in this issue. We have a committee going. It is a nonpotable abuse coalition
committee. It has members on it from the
Main Street Project, from the substance abuse coalition, from the Manitoba
Pharmaceutical Association, Point Douglas Residents' Committee, and the
Those products are currently being tested
by laboratories; results should be coming back from those labs before too long.
The committee will deliberate on those results to see what action we could or
should take.
Mr. Hickes: My question is to the same minister.
Since 1989,
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Speaker, in various jurisdictions across
If as a result of our study we determine
that this should be considered something that should come under the Liquor
Control Commission or under the Department of Health or some other area of
government, then some definitions may have to be changed in the act.
Solvent
Abuse
Legislation
Proclamation
'Mr. George Hickes
(Point Douglas): My final question is to the Minister of
Health.
Will he now, given the apparent death of
yet another person due to nonalcoholic beverage abuse, and also given this
government's statements of commitment to stopping such abuse, finally proclaim
the antisolvent abuse legislation introduced by the member for
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I think my honourable friend the
Minister responsible for the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission addressed the
issue in how a course of action might be undertaken, which I think will
effectively deal with the sale of such products and that, Sir, should be
accomplishable within existing statute.
Women's
Directorate
Assistant Deputy Minister Competition
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
The minister made a commitment last summer
to an open competition for the appointment of the Assistant Deputy Minister for
the Women's Directorate. That never took
place because this minister cancelled the competition.
The reason why it was cancelled is because
she says that there were no qualified candidates; and that is her opinion, not
my opinion.
My question is to the minister. Why is the minister trying to leave the false
impression that the competition was cancelled by the Civil Service when, in
fact, it was cancelled from the Minister responsible for the Status of Women?
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister
responsible for the Status of Women): Mr.
Speaker, I have never tried to leave any false impressions on the record. As a matter of fact, I am satisfied that I
followed proper procedures in consultation with the Civil Service Commission
and, in fact, the competition was cancelled by my office and I have never
indicated otherwise.
It is government's prerogative to make
technical appointments in instances of senior Civil Service positions. I followed that process and I believe I
followed the proper process.
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(1410)
Mr. Lamoureux: It is beyond me how this minister can dare to
blame the Civil Service. How can she
possibly do it given, Mr. Speaker, and I quote‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, my question is: How can she blame the Civil Service in a
letter in which, and I quote, I also wish to advise that the decision has been
made to cancel the competition as the government has chosen to make an
appointment through an alternative method?
That means the minister‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.
Mrs. Mitchelson: That is exactly what I said in my first
answer.
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, to the minister responsible for
the Civil Service. I make reference to
the‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, in reference to the Hay Report
my question to the minister is: How does
the minister justify what the Minister responsible for the Status of Women has
done given, and I quote from the report, the control that ministers appear to
have over who gets approval‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put.
Mrs. Mitchelson: The ranting and raving that we hear from the
member for
I have four letters from people within the
community and within government who have highly recommended Theresa Harvey as
the right person for the job.
Human
Resources
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of
Family Services.
I have a letter here from the mayor of
Selkirk addressed to the Minister of Family Services, and I will quote: I urge you on behalf of the people of Selkirk
who will lose the most to reconsider the closure of the Selkirk Human Resource
Opportunity Centre.
I also have a letter from the Selkirk
local and the Manitoba Metis Federation again condemning the closure.
Considering the mounting opposition to the
closure, will the minister now stop the planned closure of the centre?
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, day after day, we have opposition members asking us to spend more
money in a variety of areas and certainly Family Services is one of the areas
where this government has made a priority.
We have increased the spending in Family
Services almost 9 percent this year.
That compares very favourably with a budget that was brought forward by‑‑a
pretend budget mind you‑‑members opposite. I forget the name of the people who were
referenced in a petition earlier, but in their wildest dreams they were going
to increase spending in Family Services by 5 percent.
We have had to make some difficult
decisions to be able to create new programming, to create a new program in
social allowances for the disabled, to make additional expenditures in daycare,
to make additional expenditures in child welfare, and do some very creative and
innovative things.
We have legislation before the House now
that we will be talking about later this afternoon, and I am sure members
opposite will want to support that.
Mr. Dewar: This government is bragging about the amount
of individuals on welfare. It is
terrible.
Will the minister delay the dismantling of
the centre until he has a chance to meet with groups who are working on
alternatives to the closure?
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, as I was just starting to
indicate, we have a lot of additional programming that Family Services is
embarking on this year including the maintenance of the CareerStart Program
that the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) frequently asks about, the
creation of the Partners with Youth program that we will be unveiling some
details about in the near future.
There are times when difficult decisions
and certain adjustments have to be made to allow us to create new programming
and to add to the expenditures in this department. The adjustment that the member is referring
to was one of those difficult decisions.
Mr. Dewar: The minister refuses to answer the
questions. One of the reasons these
individuals are in the training plant is, of course, because they have little
money.
My question to the minister is: What is he going to do to provide these
individuals who will now be forced to travel from Selkirk to Gimli, from
Selkirk to
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member should have
been at Estimates the other day. We were
discussing the Estimates of the Department of Family Services, and the critic
for the NDP and the acting critic for the Liberals were asking some questions
on this area, and we talked about programming that we have for individuals who
are on social allowances. I can say to
the member that there are new initiatives being taken to attempt to get
recipients of social allowances into the work force. The members who are currently taking that
program will continue to take it and later on be served in other areas.
Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.
Order, please. Prior to Orders of the Day, I would like to
tell the House that if debate on the Address for Papers in private members'
hour is concluded before 6 p.m., I will be bringing down my ruling respecting
private members' Resolution 4.
NONPOLITICAL
STATEMENTS
Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson
(Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr. Speaker, might I have leave to make a
nonpolitical statement?
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave?
Some Honourable Members:
Leave.
Mr. Speaker: Leave.
It is agreed.
Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to recognize
an honour being given to two distinguished Manitobans. This afternoon in
Recipients are eligible for this honour
only once in a lifetime and are recommended to the minister by an advisory
panel. Recipients are chosen from across
the country on the basis of activities which promote the values of Canadian
citizenship and encourage citizenship participation. The activities of Mr. MacDonell and Mr.
Anderson have underscored the shared values and beliefs of freedom, justice,
equality and respect for diversity that characterize Canadian citizenship.
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(1420)
Their generosity and initiative have made
a unique contribution to
I am also pleased to point out that Mr.
MacDonell is the founding member of the Citizenship Council of Manitoba, a
strong reflection of his commitment to making this community and this country a
better place for all.
Mr. Anderson or O.T., as he is called by
all who know him, is equally deserving of this recognition for his efforts to
improve our community. O.T. immigrated
to
He was instrumental in the creation and
establishment of the multicultural policies within our educational system. His dedication to the multicultural ideal is
illustrated by his work in ethnocultural promotion. O.T. has served as president of the Jamaican
Association of Manitoba and has played a strong role in the development and
success of the Folk Arts Council of Winnipeg.
Mr. Anderson's tireless efforts have been twice recognized, in 1987 and
in 1990, with the City of
As the current chairperson of the Manitoba
Multicultural Resource Centre, it is evident O.T.'s dedication and energies
have not diminished. Mr. MacDonell and
Mr. Anderson have both served
Ms. Marianne Cerilli
(Radisson): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical
statement?
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Radisson have
leave to make a nonpolitical statement?
Leave. It is agreed.
Ms. Cerilli: I would just like to join with the Minister
responsible for Multiculturalism (Mrs. Mitchelson) in recognizing the award
being given to Mr. Anderson and Mr. MacDonell.
Both of these individuals have contributed an incredible amount of time
to issues of citizenship and multiculturalism in combating racism in
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (
Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for
Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I too wanted to stand up and
echo some of the remarks that were made from the minister to both Mr. MacDonell
and Mr. Anderson. In particular, as many
people who know Mr. Anderson, Mr. Anderson likes to be addressed as O.T., whom
I have come to know over the last number of years as an individual who is just
a fantastic person to sit down and to talk to about multiculturalism.
One of the things that I have always
suggested, Mr. Speaker, is as a critic for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship,
and concentrating on multiculturalism, it is always a benefit to be able to go
out and meet with many different individuals, leaders of the different ethnic
communities. O.T. is one of those
individuals who is so knowledgeable about multiculturalism that he would amaze
a great number of individuals in this Chamber and could keep us glued to our
seats and give unlimited time to talk about the importance of multiculturalism,
what multiculturalism is really all about.
I have had the opportunity on several
occasions to sit down and to hear his words and wisdom regarding
multiculturalism and how he feels about the multicultural
ORDERS OF
THE DAY
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would
you call the bills in the following order:
Second Readings, Bills 61, 62, 64 and 70, and then adjourned debate Bill
45? That is it. If we will duly finish Bill 45, I will call
additional bills after that.
Mr. Speaker: Okay, thank you.
SECOND
Bill 61‑The
Consumer Protection Amendment Act (4)
Hon. Linda McIntosh
(Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education
(Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 61, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (4); Loi no
4 modifiant la Loi sur la protection du consommateur, be now read a second time
and be referred to a committee of this House.
Motion presented.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Speaker, just a few words on this particular
amendment. The basic intent here is just
simply to clarify, for those who will be working the act, the thrust that we
now take in government in terms of consumer protection. The purpose is to clarify the information
exchanging provisions of the act to allow the Consumers' Bureau to communicate
information within the
This is a housekeeping amendment that
clarifies the intent and will rectify the situation by enabling the Consumers'
Bureau with good conscience to communicate information within the
Considering that consumers experiencing
the same problem often approach more than one government department or law
enforcement agency, it is essential that departments and agencies exchange
information in order to co‑ordinate enforcement activities and to apply
the most appropriate law to any particular situation. This amendment, Bill 61, will enhance the
role of the Consumers' Bureau in ensuring the fostering of an efficient, effective
marketplace by allowing the Consumers' Bureau to exchange information within
the
I recommend Bill 61, Mr. Speaker, The
Consumer Protection Amendment Act (4) to the honourable members of this
Legislature and look forward to their support and debate on the issue.
Ms. Becky Barrett (
Motion agreed to.
Bill 62‑The
Business Practices Amendment Act (2)
Hon. Linda McIntosh
(Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education
(Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 62, The Business Practices Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2
modifiant la Loi sur les pratiques commerciales, be now read a second time and
be referred to a committee of this House.
Motion presented.
Mrs. McIntosh: Mr. Speaker, this amendment will enable the
exchange of information with municipal police forces such as the Winnipeg
Police. It was the intent of the act
when it was put in place to have communication with law enforcement officials
available. Of course, as we have begun
to work with the act and as we go and work with law enforcement officials in
various parts of the province, as we are doing increasingly, we have had a
number of issues.
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The home renovation scams that were out
there in the marketplace that we are currently investigating in co‑operation
with the RCMP and the City of
The provision in the act right now enables
the Consumers' Bureau to exchange information with government agencies and with
the RCMP only. While we do need the
provision to communicate and exchange information with the RCMP, we also need
to share information with municipal police forces, and so we wish to add that
particular statement. It is essentially
an amendment of a housekeeping nature which broadens the intent and makes it
clear that we have the ability to communicate with law enforcement officials at
any level, if it is necessary to help with an investigation that might bring a
perpetrator to justice.
There is another small addition in this
amendment, Mr. Speaker. Since many of
the complaints that we get involve inadvertences and misunderstandings as
opposed to deliberate breaches of the law, this other amendment would allow the
bureau to retain the option of resolving a complaint through mediation by
amending subsection 13(c), making it consistent with the discretion presently
provided in subsection 14(1).
The present wording could be viewed as
requiring or demanding a full investigation of a complaint even though the
problem could be satisfactorily resolved through mediation. That is an important wording change to
have. It is simply changing a
"shall" to "may" in order to avoid frivolous complaints
having to be investigated in detail as a full‑scale investigation. It also enables us to mediate when an
investigation is not necessary.
I will give you one example of a situation
we had recently‑‑a consumer who complained to the bureau that she
had purchased a video cartridge which the retailer had sold as being new.
Indeed, it was in new packaging, but when she used the cartridge the consumer
discovered the cartridge had in fact been used. Through mediation, the bureau
was able to discover that the store did not in fact sell used cartridges, and
had no idea how the used one had entered their stock. The store immediately provided the consumer
with a full refund of the purchase price, plus their assurance that they would
investigate the problem and ensure that it did not occur again. Then they took their own complaints to the
place from where they had obtained the tape.
This is a case where clearly an
investigation that would be necessary under the present wording would have
served no useful purpose, would have tied up time and talent when mediation was
the answer.
We try to solve as many problems as we can
through mediation. The Consumers'
Bureau, of the complaints it receives every year, solves 80 percent of them
through mediation, and returns to the consumers of Manitoba about half a
million dollars on an annual basis through the successful resolution of
disputes.
On the one hand, we are asking for the
ability to work more closely with policing officials, and where that is not
necessary, we are asking for some flexibility to be able to mediate without
having to resort to those full‑scale investigations.
Regarding the provision of information,
the last portion of the amendment provides the necessary discretion to the
director to determine the appropriate information to be provided to consumers
and suppliers as circumstances warrant.
Mr. Speaker, I believe, that these changes
will allow the Consumers' Bureau to be more efficient and more effective in
allocating their efforts on those matters for which the act is intended, and
that these amendments support the intent of the legislation and make it
eminently more workable.
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member
for
Motion agreed to.
Bill 64‑The
Child and Family Services Amendment Act
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Mr.
Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs
(Mrs. McIntosh), that Bill 64, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Loi
modifiant la Loi sur les services a l'enfant et a la famille), be now read a
second time and referred to a committee of this House.
Motion presented.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, today I have the pleasure of
speaking in support of Bill 64, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act.
This amendment will result in the
establishment of a Children's Advocate office in
In the December 5, 1991, throne speech our
government made a commitment to introduce legislation in the current session to
establish the Children's Advocate office.
Mr. Speaker, I am proud to speak in support of this important
initiative. As the Minister of Family
Services, I take issues related to child protection, care and family support
very seriously. I well understand the
stresses and burdens felt by families in crisis.
The legislation that is before the House
today reflects our government's strong commitment to
In each of these instances, the authors
and their reports underscored the necessity of creating an independent body to
advocate for the rights of children who receive services from the province's
Child and Family Services system.
Indeed, Mr. Speaker, the establishment of such an office is long‑awaited
and long‑anticipated. It should be
noted that the provinces of
As is proposed by this amendment to
As the members review this legislation, I
ask they keep in mind the spirit and intent of this legislation, which is to
establish an independent advocate for children in contact with the Child and
Family Services system in our province.
I ask that they recognize the importance of the principle of advocacy in
this legislation.
Technically, any person who speaks on
behalf of, or represents the interests of another person is performing an
advocacy function. Naturally, parents or
family members are usually in the best position to advocate for the interests
of their children. This advocacy role
may be lost, however, when due to neglect or abuse the child requires
protective intervention by the state. In
these cases, a government service system assumes the responsibilities formerly
exercised by parents and other individuals in the child's life.
In addition to being the primary
caregiver, the onus is on government to also ensure that the child continues to
have someone who can and will act on the child's behalf.
When children are taken into care because
they are judged to be in need of protection, the primary role and
responsibilities of the caregiver shift from the parents to a Child and Family
Services agency, treatment centre, group home or foster home. Staff or foster
parents do their best to provide protection and support for the children in
their care.
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This may often include advocating on the
child's behalf when important decisions must be made, or when the services
being provided to the child are inadequate or inappropriate. Because they are service providers within the
Child and Family Services system, however, there may be instances where staff
or foster parents lack the necessary independence to perform an effective
advocacy function.
(Madam Deputy Speaker in the Chair)
Similarly, the Director of Child and
Family Services and his staff may, on occasion, be perceived as lacking the
independence necessary to advocate on a child's behalf. For these reasons, Mr. Speaker, we are
establishing a Children's Advocate who has no direct responsibilities for
service delivery, and who can therefore represent children's interests in an
objective, independent manner.
The Children's Advocate's primary duties
will include advising the minister responsible for Child and Family Services on
issues affecting children or the delivery of services; receiving and
investigating complaints related to child protection and family support
services; and speaking on behalf of children when important child welfare
decisions are to be made. Madam Deputy Speaker, our government is committed to
the children and families of
The introduction of this legislation is an
important part of our commitment. During
the course of the past five fiscal years we have underscored our commitment to
families by increasing the Department of Family Services' total budget by 47
percent, an increase of $204 million.
During the same period, total government
spending has increased by about 26 percent.
My department has increased funding to the areas of domestic abuse and
violence against women by 223 percent since 1987‑88. Funding has now reached an all‑time
high of $2.9 million annually.
Child and family support funding has grown
by 41 percent over the last five years to $98.5 million. We have increased child daycare funding by 71
percent since 1987‑88, Madam Deputy Speaker, to $46.7 million in 1992‑93. These initiatives by the Department of Family
Services reflect the same commitment to families that led our government to
introduce the legislation before the House today.
This commitment to children and families
also led our government to substantially increase foster care rates. Under the terms of a three‑year
agreement negotiated with the Manitoba Foster Family Association, foster
parents saw increases of 84 percent and 49 percent respectively for children up
to 10 years of age and youth 11 to 17 years of age.
As I noted earlier in my remarks, child
protection is a priority of our government and the Department of Family
Services. We have strengthened laws
protecting children from abuse and have initiated several new child abuse
prevention and treatment programs. I should
also note that the department has prepared new protocols for reporting suspected
cases of abuse. These protocols have been prepared for a variety of
professionals, including social workers, health care professionals, child
daycare workers and teachers.
Further to our commitment to families,
last spring we carried out a major restructuring of Winnipeg Child and Family
Services agencies. This restructuring
has brought together the administration of the six former agencies into a
single organization, thereby reducing administrative costs while improving the
co‑ordination of support and care for children and families at risk.
My department is also developing a
computerized information system to help track Child and Family Services clients
and a high‑risk indicator to help workers assess cases. Our commitment to families will continue.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the initiatives and
support that I have spoken of during the course of my remarks are evidence of
my personal commitment as well as our government's and my department's
commitment to children and families in
There are critical challenges facing
My department's policies and programs
affect the lives of tens of thousands of Manitobans and, over the course of a
full year, it is estimated that as many as 180,000 Manitobans, over 16 percent
of our total population, receive services or benefits from Family Services or
the organization that it funds.
Family Services co‑ordinates a wide
range of human support services which protect and assist the neediest and most
vulnerable members of
The Child and Family Services Amendment
Act that is currently before this House is part of our commitment to protect
the most vulnerable individuals in our province‑‑our children.
I have spoken at length, Madam Deputy
Speaker, of the initiatives that have been undertaken in the name of the
families of
I am asking that the members consider the
words I have spoken in support of this legislation and
Ultimately, the establishment of the
Children's Advocate office will ensure that children are protected and well
treated and that their rights, interests and preferences are respected when
decisions affecting them are made.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I ask: Is that not a goal which must in good
conscience be supported by each member of this Assembly?
Ms. Becky Barrett (
Motion agreed to.
Bill 70‑The
Social Allowances Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act
Hon. Harold Gilleshammer
(Minister of Family Services): Madam
Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) that
Bill 70, The Social Allowances Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi
modifiant la Loi sur l'aide sociale et apportant des modifications correlatives
a d'autres lois), be now read a second time and referred to a committee of this
House.
Motion presented.
Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Deputy Speaker, this afternoon I have
the honour of speaking in support of Bill 70, The Social Allowances Amendment
and Consequential Amendments Act. The
proposed amendments to The Social Allowances Act and to The Municipal Act which
are contained in this legislation will resolve the long‑standing issue of
municipal assistance rates and the rules of eligibility varying across the
province.
During the 1988 election campaign, we made
a commitment to strengthen
It is also the result of a broad‑reaching
consultation process involving
Along with the decision to consult with
municipalities, the approach also recognized the need for the effective
provision of service through continued delivery by the municipalities and
uniform regulations governing the provision of assistance. The committee itself was comprised of
representatives of the associations representing municipalities: the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities,
the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and the City of
As the members may recall, the Social
Assistance Review Committee prepared a report which was based on a series of
meetings held between April and July 1989.
This report was then reviewed by each municipal association and the City
of
The legislation that I am speaking in
support of today is the result of this consultation process. It should be noted that in its report the
committee agreed that standardization of the municipal assistance program, through
the provincial regulation, would address the major concerns with regard to the
current structure while allowing the municipalities to bring their knowledge of
local matters and their expertise to the delivery of assistance.
Furthermore, the committee agreed that
there should be extensive regulation of the benefits, rates and financial
eligibility criteria, with flexibility for the municipalities to exceed the
regulated rates, limited regulation of administrative procedures and reasonable
levels of support and monitoring of the municipalities.
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It was also recommended by the Social
Assistance Review Committee that the criteria which determine eligibility for
municipal assistance be standardized.
This includes a common definition of what income and assets are
considered in the needs assessment test.
I have gone into some detail about the consultation process and the
review committee's recommendations which establish the basis for this
legislation. I have done this to ensure
that all the members are aware that these amendments are not being proposed
lightly, nor without consultation and input from
As the members are aware, in the December
5, 1991 throne speech, a commitment was made to introduce legislation during the
current session which would result in more equitable benefits and treatment
across the province. I reiterated that
commitment on January 17 of this year when I announced the standardization of
rates and rules governing municipal assistance through amendments to both The
Social Allowances Act and The Municipal Act.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am honoured to
speak in support of our commitment to Bill 70.
The intent of this legislation is very straightforward and simple: to standardize the minimum rates and some of
the criteria which establish eligibility for municipal assistance across the
province through the regulation of the Municipal Assistance Program. The amendments that are proposed by this
legislation are the result of our government's commitment to social assistance
reform and the report of the Social Assistance Review Committee, and
consultation with
The proposed amendments will result in The
Social Allowances Act becoming the major legislative base for the social
assistance system. The proposed approach
is to consolidate the legislative provisions for social allowances, municipal
assistance and general assistance within The Social Allowances Act. The result will be that the act would apply
to provincial social allowance clients, largely disabled persons, sole support
parents, municipal assistance clients, unemployed employables in a
municipality, and to provincial general assistance clients, unemployed
employables living in local government districts and in unorganized
territories.
The amendments to The Municipal Act will
empower
Most importantly, under the proposed
regulated system, municipalities will continue to play a key role in the
delivery of standardized municipal assistance.
In recognition of municipalities' experience and understanding of local
needs and regional realities, municipalities will hold a vital position in the
proposed regulated system. Also, key
administrative procedures such as some aspects of the applications process will
be regulated. This will help to ensure
equal accessibility and confidentiality.
It should also be noted that municipalities have repeatedly expressed a
need for support and assistance during the standardization process, and so
department staff will be designated to support municipal administrators and to
monitor the program during the initial transition phase and beyond.
Over the past several years our government
has made a number of reforms to the social assistance system in
As the members may be aware, we have
undertaken a number of initiatives in this regard. For example, immediate eligibility for the
provincial Social Allowances Program was extended to recently separated and/or
deserted single‑parent families effective January 1990. Beginning in the current calendar year,
social allowance recipients have received an increase in monthly benefits to
cover the value of provincial tax credits previously received on an annual lump‑sum
basis. At the same time, recipients also
received a general social allowances rate increase of 3.6 percent and a 3
percent rise in allowable monthly shelter payments.
I also announced that a special new
supplement will be provided to disabled adults who qualify for social allowance
benefits to offset their higher living costs resulting from their disabilities.
Most recently, we raised the liquid asset
exemption levels for provincial social allowance recipients. This change will provide clients more
flexibility in managing their financial resources. Each of these amendments to the provincial
program and its policies have been part of the process of reform our government
committed itself to in 1988 and when the Department of Family Services was
created in 1989.
Madam Deputy Speaker, while the proposed
amendments are broad, as I have outlined in my remarks, they are also vital to
the delivery of a fair and equitable social assistance system in
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon
East): I move, seconded by the member for Thompson
(Mr. Ashton), that debate be adjourned.
Motion agreed to.
DEBATE ON SECOND
and
Consequential Amendments Act
Madam Deputy Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill
45, The City of Winnipeg Amendment, Municipal Amendment and Consequential
Amendments Act (Loi modifiant la Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg, la Loi sur les
municipalites et d'autres dispositions legislatives), on the proposed motion of
the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), standing in the name of
the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) who has three minutes
remaining.
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Thompson): Madam Deputy Speaker, it was unfortunate I
did not have the full 40 minutes last time to be able to complete my remarks
because, as members will recall, I had many concerns about this particular
bill.
I want to emphasize again that we are
concerned about the powers given to the minister. We are concerned about the precedent this
minister is setting in terms of the city of Winnipeg and the kind of precedent
we may see in the future in terms of construction of new rural
municipalities. It is not a question of
Headingley per se, but the kind of agenda that we are going to see from this
minister and other members of this government in terms of possible
dismemberment piece by piece of the city of
I want to indicate that there are many
concerns I know in my own community related to municipal affairs, Madam Deputy
Speaker. We do not have, in particular,
boundary problems. There are other problems in my own constituency with regard,
for example, to policing. I will be
raising those as concerns.
I am very concerned indeed about what is
happening and the pressures that are taking place at the municipal level of
government, as in the case of my own community where policing has led to the
community having to pick up 90 percent of the policing costs. I think we need a new deal between the
provincial government, indeed the federal government as well, and the
municipalities, because I see increasingly that municipalities are ending up in
a divide‑and‑conquer type of mentality this government is
encouraging. They are not getting
adequate support from the provincial government. They are having offloading of programs. That results in the kind of pressures we are
seeing for the reconstruction of boundaries, whether it be in the city of
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Madam Deputy Speaker, what this government
is doing through its bills, such as this particular bill, and its fiscal policy
is putting a great deal of pressure on municipalities that is not good for the
citizens of this province. They like to
say there is only one taxpayer. Indeed,
there is only one taxpayer in this province, and what they are doing is
transferring burdens out of one pocket, the provincial pocket, that people have
into the other, the municipal level. I
can see some major problems ahead for municipalities, for the city of
I am disappointed there are so many people
from that side of government who come out of municipal politics, civic
politics. I would have thought they
would have known better. It is up to us
in this case, because of the silence of some of the members opposite, to raise
these concerns. I have raised the
concerns because I believe as a representative of the city of Thompson I have
as much stake, and I wish to speak out as much on behalf of the citizens of
Winnipeg if we see in this case as we do, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this
government is not doing the same.
In conclusion once again we have
significant problems with Bill 45. I
want to say, this minister, this government has to amend this bill. If they do not amend this bill, Madam Deputy
Speaker, we will be debating it, we will be fighting some of the negative
principles in this bill, and we will be debating this bill for quite some time.
Mr. Leonard Evans
(Brandon East): Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to add a
few remarks to the debate on this very important bill that has been discussed
very briefly by my colleague the member for Thompson. I know he made an eloquent speech last time,
but he only had three minutes on this occasion to provide his wind‑up
remarks.
It is a piece of legislation that is very
fundamental. It involves a number of
basic principles that should concern all of us, regardless of what area we
represent in the province. There are
some principles that bear on how we go about forming municipalities, and there
are some concerns we have about the methodology used by the Minister of Urban
Affairs (Mr. Ernst).
Having said all that, I can tell you that
I appreciate the concerns of the residents of Headingley and a lot of the
problems that they have perceived over the years with not getting the kind of
services that they believe they are entitled to compared with the amount of
taxes that they had to and have to pay still to the city of Winnipeg. What we have here is perhaps the culmination
of many years of frustration and of anger and concerns raised by residents in
Headingley, both in north Headingley and south Headingley. Of course, in some ways it has come to a head
now with this particular piece of legislation and certainly with the referendum
that was held last November 14. That is
November 14, 1991, when a referendum was held, whereby 86 percent of those who
voted supported a movement to secede, they supported a secession, they
supported the setting up of a separate jurisdiction of Headingley.
I note, I am not sure under what
legislation this referendum was able to be held. I do not believe there is any provision. I stand to be corrected on that, but I do not
know under what provision, in what act that particular type of referendum was
allowed to take place.
Of course, you can argue that if you have
any kind of referendum on a secession it should involve the whole and not just
the part. Just as many people in Canada
would argue that you cannot just have a referendum in the province of Quebec
and allow it to decide that it is going to secede from the rest of the country
without involving the opinions of the rest of the country, therefore a case has
been made, Madam Deputy Speaker, in terms of constitutional reform for a nation‑wide
referendum so that everybody has an opportunity to voice a concern, not just
the one part that wishes to secede.
I think that type of argument can be utilized
in this case as well, that perhaps there should have been involvement of
residents in the city of Winnipeg as well, but it is sorry that we had to come
to this particular extreme position where the residents were very, very upset
and took the measures that they did and carried on as they had.
I think that there could have been other
solutions worked out between the city fathers and the residents of Headingley
with the co‑operation of the
Having said that, I can understand the
perception of Headingley being separate from the City of
An Honourable Member: How would you know all that? You have not been to
Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, as I said before the Minister of Finance
(Mr. Manness) sat down, I have driven through Headingley between this
Legislative Assembly location and my constituency too many times over the last
two decades.
An Honourable Member: You used to.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, used to‑‑Madam Deputy
Speaker, I would invite the minister to come with me and see how many times we
take that trip‑‑last week, the week before, this Friday, and the
following week, and the following week, and week after that, ad infinitum‑‑just
too many times.
As a matter of fact, if and when I ever
retire from politics, I figure I might apply for a job with the Greyhound bus
line driving the bus to the west because I am a man well experienced in that
area, very well experienced. I know
every little turn, every little bump in the road and most experienced, too
experienced, in that particular stretch.
But I say there is that perception of separation that you get,
particularly when you drive in the dark, to see the darkness between the built‑up
north Headingley area and the rest of
It is an old issue, Madam Deputy Speaker,
and it is an issue pretty basic, very close to people, an issue of paying
certain property taxes, paying what the residents of Headingley seem to think
are too high. [interjection] Yes, and
on the other hand the level of services that are provided.
The member for St. Norbert (Mr.
Laurendeau) is talking from his seat. I
do not know if I get all his comments or follow all of his comments from his
seat, but I can tell you that we had to deal with a comparable situation in
In the wisdom of the time, and I know with
the support of the mayor of the City of Winnipeg and I think the bulk of the
leadership of the City Council, we proceeded with the Unicity legislation,
Madam Deputy Speaker, and I voted for it and we created the city that we have
today, more or less with some minor modifications that have taken place since
and may take place at some time in the future.
I think it was the right thing to do. At the very same time, I would like to remind
members of this Legislature that we undertook a similar move in the city of
You had a very unsatisfactory situation
where industry was coming to the Brandon area demanding services from the City
of Brandon, yet locating out of the city, partly because there was not
sufficient room in the city, paying taxes to the R.M. of Cornwallis, so that
the R.M. of Cornwallis probably had the biggest bank account of any rural
municipality in this province. In the meantime, the City of
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At any rate, we set up an enlarged
At the same time, those people who were
brought in had improved services, because what was happening in the urbanized
areas of the R.M. of Cornwallis was you had hundreds and hundreds of homes that
were not on a proper water and sewer system, and there was a real public health
problem, a very potential serious public health problem on the horizon, and
something simply had to be done about it.
This was one of the things that was accomplished in the enlargement of
the city's boundaries, because water and sewer was brought in in large measure
to that area, and it was done, as I said, for no other reason. It should have been done for public health
reasons, but it was done for other reasons as well.
So the city at the same time as
So when we talk about services versus
taxes paid and whether we are getting adequate services for the amount of taxes
paid, we are dealing with an eternal question, I suppose, in government. We
have that in this case as well, in the case of Headingley and the concerns
expressed by the citizens in that community.
As I said, it is not a new problem. It has been dealt with over the years by
various groups. One of the most
outstanding reviews, of course, was made by the Cherniack Committee, The City
of Winnipeg Act review committee chaired by Lawrie Cherniack with some
excellent people who had many years of experience in urban government,
including D.I. Macdonald, former commissioner of metro Winnipeg and Alan
Artibise, who is an urban studies expert, an expert on urban problems, urban
development, Donald Epstein and Paul Thomas.
All of these gentlemen were experienced
and well qualified. They held hearings and they had many discussions with
people and finally came up with this comprehensive recommendation to government
on proposals to improve the administration of the City of
In Section 8 of the report, it deals with
the subject of the city and its neighbours and specifically deals with the
question of Headingley, the Headingley area.
Of course, it deals with various other rural areas and rural
jurisdictions surrounding the city of
They are basic issues regarding the
effectiveness and desirability of what is known as the
Of course, related to that was the purpose
of future mechanisms for the utility or purpose of future mechanisms for co‑operation
between the city and its neighbouring rural municipalities and also the resolution
of a number of intermunicipal grievances and continuing problems that adversely
affect their relations, Madam Deputy Speaker.
At any rate, the committee's view was that
there was general agreement on most of the basic items, such as the future of
the additional zone, which give the City of Winnipeg certain powers to control
development outside its immediate administrative purview, outside of its legal
limits; also, a basic item including principles for boundary adjustment; in
addition, questions of city acquisition of land outside of the city and the
question of the City of Winnipeg's adherence to the approval of requirements of
other municipalities; and then questions of city payments of full grants in
lieu of property taxes to other municipalities.
At any rate, it is an excellent report,
authored by some people of considerable experience and talent and, I believe,
in a nonpartisan way, representing views held by many thinking people in the
area and in the
The committee made some specific
recommendations for a regional association of municipalities in a particular
region, and it talks about methods and so on, but it is not suggesting that the
parties are unwilling to co‑operate, and they believe that ultimately
through discussion and good will there will be a recognition for certain
changes to be made, and indeed those changes can be made.
Well, they talk about abolition of the
Winnipeg additional zone, and I just mentioned in passing that the committee
recommended that that additional zone be abolished, that therefore that the
city have that power taken away from it and that it confine its jurisdiction
and its responsibilities to within its existing legal limits.
It goes on talking about corporate limits
of the city of
So I think that that is a basic principle
and one that has to be considered in discussing the principle of this piece of
legislation before us. We are talking
about principles when we discuss this Bill 45 in second reading, and this is a
basic principle established by the Cherniack commission. It suggested a number of guidelines which I
would like to refer to because they are germane to the debate: 1) lands relatively contiguous to the city's
boundaries that an elected council of a rural municipality has designated for
development or approved for development to a suburban standard typical of
suburbs within the city should be incorporated within the city's boundaries.
*
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So, if there are activities just outside the
legal limits of the city, and if they seem to be of an urban nature, then those
should be brought in. I think there is
some specific reference in the northeastern section of the city whereby there
is certain land there that should be brought in from the R.M. in that area.
So that is one guideline. You develop‑‑if it is urban or
suburban, it should be brought into the city, and presumably the corollary of
that, if it is rural, it should be left out.
So that brings you to the second guideline.: Lands that rural municipalities designate
and/or approve for development for rural residential purposes below the
standards typically found in the city suburbs, agriculture use or other rural
purposes outside of their established towns or villages should be retained
within their jurisdiction.
In other words, the existing rural
municipalities that surround
Thirdly, the third guideline of the
Cherniack Committee here: Where the city
declares its long‑term intention not to use lands within the city's
boundaries for development to a typical urban or suburban standard, or for
other uses and purposes important to the city, those lands should be considered
for exclusion from the city's jurisdiction.
So there, Madam Deputy Speaker, you have
the point where you could make a case, I suppose, an argument that Headingley
should rightfully be removed if you determine, of course, that it is below
urban or suburban standards however that is deemed. But in this principle note the Cherniack
Committee is saying, it is where the city declares its long‑term
intention not to use lands within the city's boundaries for development. I would say therefore that the Headingley
area was not declared that by the city, and therefore I do not know how those
who would argue for the separation of Headingley could refer to this Cherniack
guideline in that instance, because it leaves the onus on the city, where the
city takes the initiative to declare that it has no future use for that
particular land.
The review committee recommends that the
act be amended to establish new boundaries for the city of
Just to quote from the report: The committee is not in a position to provide
a specific description of the western boundary at this time. One idea which has received considerable
support during the consultation process is that the city's western boundary
should be drawn in to remove the Headingley area from the city of
I will just repeat that: South of the river the boundary could be the
So, Madam Deputy Speaker, considerable
water has flowed under the bridge since this report was issued in late
'85. Actually, it came out in 1986.
An Honourable Member: Who is building the bridges?
Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, I am glad some members opposite are
listening here. This was a test, Madam
Deputy Speaker. You listen with bated
breath.
At any rate, obviously the Cherniack
Committee is supporting a move that is being proposed in this piece of
legislation. Where the disagreement comes is the methods, procedures and so on,
and perhaps the timing, but, as I said, it is an old issue. Unfortunately, in
some ways we have not had the research into ASAIPs recommended into a
development plan that would be appropriate for the area because the area should
know where it is going to go. What are
its objectives? I mean, the last
presumably‑‑[interjection]
Well, for the council, but nevertheless
council should be part of development plans.
They should be want‑‑
An Honourable Member: But that should be their council that does it,
so let us let them form a municipality.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Okay.
Well, we are talking about a recommendation.
I do not know whether this is in order,
Madam Deputy Speaker, to debate with someone who is commenting from his seat,
but the member raises some good points.
But I am just saying this committee's report is long before the
establishment of a separate municipality.
They are talking about doing some planning and thinking about the
process, so where we are going to go before you even hold a referendum, before
you make the decision to cut off.
The member opposite talks about the
responsibility to the municipality, but it does not exist as such yet. There is nothing, I am sure, with competent
people and some wisdom and good will, others‑‑the province could
have come up with some proposals of what a development plan might look
like. That does not mean that the
municipality would not take subsequent responsibility. It does not exclude that whatsoever.
There was discussion, there was a white‑‑[interjection]
At any rate, I did not hear all of
that. I did not hear the first
part. But there was a white paper issued
by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) on February 27, 1987‑‑a
discussion paper, I should say‑‑entitled "Strengthening Local
Government in Winnipeg: Proposals for
Changes to The City of Winnipeg Act." It dealt with obviously major
issues, not just boundaries. It did that
indeed, but it dealt with more comprehensive issues such as a more
representative and accountable city government and more democratic and
equitable city government, but also it dealt with planning and it dealt with
land use. It certainly dealt with
questions of zones or areas outside of the city of
There too there was agreement that the
additional zone could be abolished, but, at any rate, the point I am making is
that the problem has been around a long time.
We are dealing with something that has been a matter of controversy
between City Council of Winnipeg and residents in the Headingley area.
So we have, on the one hand we are
concerned that we ensure that we maintain a strong capital city in our
province. It is our largest city and it
provides a lot of benefits for us, as do, indeed, most of our good parts of our
province. Many urban centres across the
province provide basic services to their residents. The City of
There are certain advantages, certain
things we get out of living in an urban area.
Certainly urbanization of people around the world has enabled us to
engage in all kinds of developments, research, higher education, something that
would never have occurred if we did not have urban centres.
The basic research, the scientific
research that occurs in the world, the basic centres of higher education, these
centres of art and culture are found throughout the world, by in large, in the
major urban centres. Certainly we get
that out of the City of
*
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What I am saying though is that it is
important we make sure that we do not hurt the existence of the City of
In my view, in our view on this side, this
would not be a good thing. As I said, I
voted for Unicity in the Schreyer administration. It was the right thing to do, and basically
we should ensure that we do whatever we can to maintain a good viable city
structure.
There have been proposals made for
improvements to the city structure. No
one said that in 1971 it was perfect. We
should always be open to suggestions for change, modifications to help make the
structure more democratic, to make it more accountable, to make it more
efficient.
Basically, what we did was avoid
duplication of fire services, avoid duplication of police services and so on
and try to co‑ordinate that within the metropolitan area. Of course, this is a problem the people of
Headingley are going to have now, assuming that at some point they are a legal
entity unto themselves. They are going
to confront the problems of providing adequate fire protection, adequate
ambulance service, adequate police service, and whatever other services the
people in that jurisdiction wish to have.
Our concern with the bill, Madam Deputy
Speaker, as has been stated by some other members on this side, is that it is
not restricted essentially to Headingley.
It gives the minister a blank cheque to accommodate others who may wish
to secede from the City of
Why should we give the minister and the
government a blank cheque to do this?
Why should we leave it to the Cabinet, which as I understand from this
legislation, could deal with these other areas simply by Order‑in‑Council
without coming back to this Legislature.
If another area has to be dealt with, has
concerns, and we know there were concerns raised in St. Germain. I do not know whether there were any concerns
raised in St. Norbert, I am not sure, but wherever they may be,
There does not seem to be any planning
involved in this. They seem to be doing it in a very ad hoc fashion. As one member said across the way, well, the
municipality can do its own planning, but I say that there is a responsibility
on the part of the province to ensure that there is co‑ordination and
that there should have been some better idea of what we were getting into
before we just rush in like this.
We do not have any information. I do not believe there are any studies, to
use an example, what impact will there be on taxes? What impact will there be in the city of
We are also concerned, and, you know, it
is easy to just pass over these things, but the fact is that we have not had
sufficient planning and control even within the city of
We are concerned about disclosure
provisions. When you have a referendum
and people involved in a referendum, to what extent have certain individuals
contributed money towards influencing a referendum one way or the other? We have seen too many developers become
involved in the political process in this City of
Another question regarding the division of
assets, we are not so satisfied that what is being proposed in the bill will
enable that to be done in as independent a way as it should be, and we would
argue, or I would argue anyway, that you need a completely independent board to
be involved in that procedure and not the cabinet or some senior official in
the Department of Urban Affairs.
The City of
The city agrees that primary agricultural
land on the fringe of the city should be protected and its conversion to urban
uses should be resisted. They also
believe that existing and proposed private sports and recreational facilities
that are of a metropolitan regional nature should, where geographically
practical, be contained within the city's boundaries, and they use as an
example, of course, the Assiniboia Downs.
It would seem to me that that is what is being proposed in the most
recent recommendation on boundary adjustments.
The city is also agreeable, or proposes,
that existing city‑owned, municipal service facilities that will continue
to provide services to the city, should, where geographically practical, be
located within the city's boundaries. Of
course, the example there is the Winnipeg Pollution Control Centre remaining
within the city of
Madam Deputy Speaker, could you advise how
much time I have left?
Madam Deputy Speaker: Three minutes.
Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, if I could have another 30 minutes by
leave, we can go on.
I have lots of material here. I would like to spend more time in putting
forward some of the rational considerations of people who have given a lot of
thought to this and who suggest a rational approach to adjustment. But the city does have planning concerns
outside of the city, in that area, and I think the province will do us all a
favour, the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) will do us all a favour if he
would take heed.
In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, we
oppose the bill as it now exists. We
believe it is done in haste. We believe
we should only be dealing with Headingley.
We should not give the minister power to adjust
*
(1540)
So, we believe, Madam Deputy Speaker,
therefore, that far more consideration should be given to this bill, that
certain amendments should be forthcoming.
I am sure that, when it gets to the committee stage, if it ever does,
that some very important recommendations will be forthcoming to make this
legislation far more acceptable than it is at the present time.
I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the
other members of the House, for their attention in this deliberation of Bill
45.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. On a procedural point, I neglected to
ascertain if there was leave to permit the bill to remain standing in the name
of the member for Wolseley prior to permitting the member for Brandon East (Mr.
Leonard Evans) to speak to this bill. I
will now pose the question. Is there
will of the House to permit the bill to remain standing in the name of the
honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen)?
An Honourable Member: No.
Madam Deputy Speaker: No?
Leave has been denied.
Point of
Order
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker,
I have a little problem here. I do not mind
letting it stand in the name of, as long as we spend all afternoon on Bill
45. That is a condition. If we do not have members opposite in the
absence of the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) prepared to speak, then we
must insist that the member for Wolseley speaks. So that is the dilemma I am in
right at this moment.
Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley on the
same point of order.
Ms. Jean Friesen
(Wolseley): Madam Deputy Speaker, we do have a number of
other speakers who want to speak on this.
So I think I would like to see you leave the bill standing for the time
being while other members speak.
Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for
Mr. Kevin Lamoureux
(Second Opposition House Leader): On the
same point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, we in the Liberal Party did want to
grant leave, and I understand that the government will allow leave and just
possibly allow the other members to stand up and speak to it. Maybe we can revisit it, as the Government
House Leader (Mr. Manness) suggests, but we do allow leave for it to remain
standing in the member's name.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. There must be a determination made now by the
House as to whether it is the will of the House to permit leave or not to
permit leave.
Mr. Manness: Yes, we will let it stand.
Madam Deputy Speaker: So leave has been granted to allow the bill
to remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms.
Friesen).
* * *
Mr. Jim Maloway
(Elmwood): Madam Deputy Speaker, I am very pleased to
rise today to speak to Bill 45. I
listened to the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) earlier when he
made a speech, and I was hoping that he would have the opportunity to listen to
me on this bill. It was a very close
call here with all of the points of order and interjections, but I am very
pleased that everything has worked out and the minister is here and I can begin
to try to convince him of the merits of opposing this Bill 45 in its current
form.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the Headingley issue
has been around with us for as long as I can remember. I guess the question that I have often
wondered about is, why would a municipality want to secede in the first place,
particularly if its concerns were being addressed by the central
authority? It seems to me that if I was
a resident living in Headingley and I was getting the services that I was to
expect for my tax dollars, that I would not want to secede from the city of
Financial pressures are always a concern,
I believe, particularly at a time when the economy is in the shape it is in
right now. I think that people forced
with financial pressures and so on will always take the easy road if given that
option, and may in fact do things that they may perceive as being in their
short‑term interest, but perhaps may not be in the long‑term
interest of themselves or the greater good.
I am concerned about the concept of
allowing different groups to secede from the city of
Madam Deputy Speaker, that is my
understanding of one of the reasons why Unicity was established in the first
place. Prior to Unicity we had a
situation where we had a number of separate municipalities, separate little
city states, and each had its own taxation base, and each had its own level of
services. If one could afford to live in
Tuxedo, for example, then one was in a position to live in an area with a
better taxation base than, say for example, Elmwood or Transcona, and one could
enjoy much better services as a result.
Let me ask you what would happen if Tuxedo
or
Certainly that is not the kind of
attitude, the kind of activity that I think we want to foster. After all, in
What has happened out of that is that, in
fact, the people now are leaving
*
(1550)
Hon. Harry Enns
(Minister of Natural Resources): Where do
we stand on free trade?
Mr. Maloway: The Minister of Natural Resources asks about
free trade. I do not think there is any
question that the New Democratic Party has been in favour of free trade for
years and years and years, because we recognize that tariff barriers are a
problem long term. What we have always
said, and the minister should remember this, that we opposed the trade deal
that was established in this country three to four years ago now. We opposed that particular deal. We never opposed a sectoral free trade deal
based on a sector‑by‑sector approach to it, so need not the
minister cast any aspersions here, Madam Deputy Speaker, because we would not
want to leave any false impressions on the record.
I do think that we are heading in the
wrong direction here, and I do not believe that the people necessarily in
Headingley are being well served by separating away. Once the people of Headingley are able to
leave the city, then where does that leave Transcona, where does that leave the
rest, and
We know that over the years we have a
situation, particularly in the American cities, where people because of the
policies of development that are fostered by Conservative‑ and Liberal‑type
governments‑‑whereby the developers call the shots. The developers have the local Tory and
Liberal politicians in their back pocket and snap their fingers and the local
politicians respond to their every whim.
That whole philosophy, that whole approach has led to uncontrolled
expansion and development and basically a total neglect of the city core of
these cities, because after all there are no bucks to be made in it so the
developers are not interested in reworking and re‑establishing the core
area of the city. They are interested in
taking good farm land out of production, running in new streets and services
and so on and essentially making big money selling houses and developments.
That is the type of uncontrolled approach
to urban development that the Conservative and Liberal people across this
country have allowed to happen. Now even
they are seeing limits to this approach, and even they are, belatedly, but even
so they are seeing that the developers do have to be kept under some kind of
control and that you cannot constantly be expanding the city and taking more
and more and more farm land out of production so developers, so their friends
in the development community can make all these excess profits which in turn
completes the circle and keeps these people in power.
The whole strategy here, the whole
strategy is tied into the Tory corporate philosophy of dismantling, trying to,
attempting to dismantle the state. The
whole concept of cutting the size of City Council to the proposed reduced
number of seats is all part of, sort of the last gasp of the gang at City Hall
who see the new progressive group known as WIN catching up to them and
potentially knocking them out of their lofty little nests. Out of almost sheer terror they have decided
to circle the wagons and change The City of Winnipeg Act because they feel that
is the only way that they can stop WIN.
The only way that they can hang on to their preferred position is to
have fewer seats in the city so that their developer friends can more easily
carve up and control the city government, and it has been a neat trick. It is a neat trick that this government has
perpetrated on the people of the province, and I am hoping that people will not
fall for this. They certainly will not
fall for it in the long term, but in the short term it did sound like a
reasonable thing to do to reduce the size of City Council. It is all part of their overall approach to
keep the government in the hands of the developers.
Now we see the gang reconstituting itself
at the city level. Just recently there are a number of business groups that
have got together and decided they are going to run their own gang now and they
are calling it something else. If you look
back over the last hundred years, you have the different business groups, the
group for good government, and there were a whole number of these over the
years, that have constituted and reconstituted themselves and now‑‑
Point of
Order
Hon. Linda McIntosh (Minister
of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam
Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, I believe the bill is to debate things
other than the personalities and interests of particular councillors. I would really appreciate hearing the member
speak again about the people of Headingley whom I represent and have a great
interest in hearing this debate.
Madam Deputy Speaker: I would like to remind all honourable members
that indeed debate on second reading of bills is to be relevant to the
principle of the bill.
* * *
Mr. Maloway: Madam Deputy Speaker, I really enjoy the
interjections, actually trained and timed, I think, by members opposite,
because they have been doing this now for the last four or five years. I do not know why they do not quit because
they have never been successful in the past.
I recall a bill on the fire schools I
believe it was or the fire department training sessions, and they must have
risen in their place at least a dozen times throughout the presentation and in
the end realized that in fact there is a wide latitude. The speaker is
traditionally offered a wide latitude when discussing bills. I have been addressing Bill 45, which is
clearly a City of
Madam Deputy Speaker, it is very difficult
to respond to the members when they keep interjecting on such frivolous points
of order. Nevertheless, I will continue
and I invite many more over there, when they feel the time is right to stand in
their place and raise their interjections.
To the gang supporters over there, the
former gang members and gang supporters, I must say that they certainly are
operating on very much borrowed time. I
think they are going to see some drastic changes this fall in the make‑up
of the City Hall.
Regarding specifically Bill 45, the facts
are, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this particular bill gives the government a lot
of power that I do not think that on reflection the government needs or really
wants to have. I do not think the
Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) wants to become in effect a marriage
counsellor, because that is what he is going to become if you follow through
with this bill. It refers to the
minister being involved in the separation of property and the dividing of
assets and other monetary arrangements.
*
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This particular Minister of Urban Affairs
has never come across to me as an individual who really likes to be overworked,
and I think he is really asking‑‑I mean I would see that he would
see some red lights, red flags flying on this one and he would try to avoid
trouble and avoid work, although he has not been too successful over the past
year, given The Pines situation and other situations.
I think that when he realizes the
potential mine fields, the potential work he is going to get himself into in
this Bill 45, Madam Deputy Speaker, he might think twice. I do not think he would want to become the
arbiter of trying to decide whether Transcona should keep this, or whether the
city should keep something else, or if St. Germain leaves whether he would want
to be involved in their splits of assets, and so on.
I think it is bizarre that the government
would want to find itself involved in this kind of situation, but once again we
are dealing with a government that philosophically does not believe in
planning.
You know the Minister of Finance (Mr.
Manness) talks about models. When he was
in opposition, he was great for talking about how budgets should be presented
with five‑year projections and so on‑‑right?‑‑when
in fact planning is not consistent with Conservative ideology. I mean, after all, they tend to believe in
the sort of John Wayne approach, to shoot from the hip and do things in a kind
of an ad hoc basis. After all, in a free
competitive market, the developers cannot really get together to divide up the
pie because they are all trying to get the whole pie for themselves.
It is a competitive environment, so the
minister cannot plan ahead and say this is the way things are going to be,
because after all they have all their developer friends out there who are
competing and are trying to leapfrog over one another to get the best deal they
can and make the most money they can, and so the government's approach is a
stand‑off sort of approach. Let
the market determine the way the economy is going to operate. That is the basic tenet of the Minister of
Finance who is really the de facto leader of the group over there.
I know occasionally we think the Minister
of Health (Mr. Orchard) is in charge, and it is hard to tell some days who is
really in charge, but I think it is fair to say that the Minister of Finance
(Mr. Manness) is quite‑‑his ideology permeates the group over there
more so than most of the others. I think
it is fair to say that he is fairly consistent in the way he approaches
philosophy, and his overall philosophy and that of the government is‑‑
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I have been extremely flexible, extremely
patient, and I hesitate to interrupt the member, but I must remind him that
under our rules and practices, debate at second reading must be relevant to the
bill before the House. This bill relates
to amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act which relate explicitly to
Headingley.
Point of
Order
Mr. Steve Ashton
(Opposition House Leader): On a point of order,
Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill does not relate specifically to
Headingley. If the Deputy Speaker would
care to read this bill, it has far‑reaching implications, and I would
caution, raise a point of order, as to whether the Deputy Speaker, in enforcing
our rules on relevancy in this case, may be doing so and advise the Deputy
Speaker that she is in error. This bill
has far‑reaching implications and, in fact, the member is in order.
Hon. Clayton Manness
(Government House Leader): Madam Deputy Speaker,
you are right in your direction to the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). Certainly, if the member were talking in
principle about municipalities and their relationship, either under existing
legislation with the City of
He, as a matter of fact, was talking about
the philosophy of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) permeating government.
That is when, Madam Deputy Speaker, you rose to your feet. How that has any possible connection to the
relationship of an area of the city trying to secede from the city, I would
question.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I support your
ruling and indeed I compliment you in asking the member to come to order.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr.
Ashton) did not have a point of order when he directed my attention to the fact
that I called the member to order because he was not debating the principles of
the bill. However, he did indicate that the bill was relative to other
municipalities, but I would also suggest to the honourable member that he came
dangerously close to challenging the Chair.
Point of
Order
Mr. Ashton: On a point of order, I would point out that it
is our tradition in this House that Speakers do in fact make rulings. There is provision, Madam Deputy Speaker, for
members to challenge rulings of a Speaker.
I was trying to give the Deputy Speaker
the opportunity, Madam Deputy Speaker, to correct a statement that was
incorrect in terms of this bill. Indeed,
I will challenge the Speaker if there is a ruling that we feel is unfair in
terms of relevance, but I do not need to be lectured by the Deputy Speaker in
terms of the rules of this House. I did
not challenge the Deputy Speaker, and I take offence to your suggesting that
was the case.
Some Honourable Members:
Oh, oh.
An Honourable Member: It goes too far when we have biased
chairing. I will challenge biased
chairing. In this case‑‑
Some Honourable Members:
Oh, oh.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr.
Ashton), in my opinion, indeed, did not have a technical point of order and I
repeat my previous statement. In my
opinion, the member came dangerously close to reflecting on the Chair.
Point of
Order
Mr. Edward Connery (
Some Honourable Members:
Oh, oh.
An Honourable Member: I said I will challenge biased chairing and I
will.
Madam Deputy Speaker: On the point of order for the honourable
member for
*
(1610)
* * *
Mr. Maloway: Madam Deputy Speaker, if I may continue my
comments on this bill, and I must admit that I do appreciate a break every once
in awhile when the members opposite rise to give me one. I invite them to rise any time they wish. They are only hurting themselves in terms of
their abilities to get this bill through the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker, Bill 45 clearly
gives a blank cheque to the minister. I
do not think there is any question about that. I mean, the members opposite
want to argue about what it does and it does not do. We have said that it gives a blank cheque and
we have indicated that the minister is going to be involved in a bunch of areas
that he does not want to be, essentially a marriage counsellor trying to divide
up assets and so on between feuding areas of the city. We have said that is not a good idea and if
they do not recognize that then that I guess is just too bad. They will have to live with it, but they
certainly will not be able to blame us for not pointing it out to them.
Madam Deputy Speaker, Section 4(1) of the
proposed bill says clearly that the Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council
may establish and confirm the area of boundaries of the city. So what you have is potentially the minister,
the cabinet of the day determining where the boundaries are going to go. Clearly the government does not want to see
itself involved in drawing boundaries and separating neighbours from neighbours
and streets from streets.
I mean, that is the whole philosophy
behind Unicity in the first place, was to establish a system where you would
have some sort of equalization of services and equalization of taxes so that
you would not have a multitiered city, so that you would not have the
"haves" and the "have nots" in perpetuity, that somewhere
along the line many years from now you would have a system, a society that was
more equitable, where the people in Transcona would have the same services as
the people in St. James and that they would pay the same relative tax
rates. That is the whole reason why the
Unicity act was brought in in the first place.
It was viewed as a model across
What you have now developing is a
regression. You have a clear regression
when you have bits and pieces of the city separating away because of
perceptions that somehow either taxes will be lower or services will be better
if they proceed on a different track and have a different form of government. I guess what we are pointing out is that the
government has to understand that by acceding to the one municipality, the one
jurisdiction, then where does it stop.
By bringing in this Bill 45, we see it as
opening potentially the floodgates here whereby a second municipality will
decide that its interests are better expressed by going on its own, because it
is either going to offer its people lower taxes or it has alternatively a
higher level of taxation, the higher level of services like Tuxedo and where it
wants to separate to offer its residents some sort of exclusivity. We are saying that Unicity was brought about
to eliminate those disparities.
Right. So why would we want to
roll back the clock? It is
consistent. That approach is consistent
coming from people like the member for Northern Affairs.
When I see this kind of action coming out
of this government, it is totally consistent with this government's philosophy,
with philosophy of Conservatives in general.
It does not surprise me. I just
asked, why would they want to do this?
Why would they want to roll back funds?
We are saying, think about this a little bit. Do not just jump forward and say, well, we
have to worry about maintaining control, political control in the city, because
it is dissipating, it is slipping away.
We can see the end of our control here at City Hall, so we have to do
several things. If we cannot have it
all, then let us break it up. Let us
take a hammer to it and break it apart and maybe it will come up in a form that
is more palatable to us. Maybe the
system will be more amenable to us if we can break it up a bit.
That is part of their approach, and the
other part of their approach is to alter the method and the way of electing
city councillors and so on, to allow their friends at City Hall to keep
whatever grasp they have on City Council, and they are all part of this thing.
We have former members of the gang sitting
in this House right now, the reconstituted gang, I guess. They are very much alive in this House. The City Council historically has been a
breeding ground for young emerging Conservatives. Over the years, they have had their
Conservatives groomed at City Hall and they bring them up and let them sit here
in the Legislature to vote for the development policies. It is basically a junior league, the farm
team.
They understand hockey over there. Now in the absence of a hockey season they
can relate, I am sure, to this kind of analogy that the City Hall is a farm
team for the Tory Party. When they
graduate, the good players at the farm team, the more compliant players at City
Hall, get the nod and approval and move up into the bigger leagues. This is viewed as the bigger leagues of the
Tory‑‑those who get tired here move up to the federal leagues and
join the federal Tories, although there is not much of a future for federal
Tories at the present time, so they are looking at their other horse in the
race, the spotted horse, the Reform Party, which is nothing more than a bunch
of Conservatives under another name.
Madam Deputy Speaker, now that I have them
all riled up again and I am anticipating another interjection, I think I
perhaps should ask you how much time I have left.
Madam Deputy Speaker: You have six minutes remaining.
Mr. Maloway: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have
another six minutes to speak on this bill and I think that I will try to do my
best to cram all of my comments that I have been working on for some time into
the next six minutes, because I have pages and pages and pages here of comments
that I had wanted to make. I am finding
it is hard to get all of these comments into my comments on this bill.
I can assure you this, that if I do not
get them all in today, I am sure that I can arrange to make the rest of the
comments at Third Reading when this bill comes up again, and I am sure that
this government will have to bring in other sorts of semirelated bills where we
can continue with these comments because this government never seems to get
things right.
*
(1620)
We have a situation where the minister
brought in‑‑just one year ago, the Minister of Consumer and
Corporate Affairs (Ms. McIntosh), brought in a Business Practices Act and gets
back here two months later with two amendments, amendments that are requiring
the sharing of information with the police.
I would have thought that would have been pretty obvious in the first
bill. So that is another indication of
the lack of planning of these so‑called experts here, the natural
governing party. This is an example of
their planning that I‑‑you know, I worry about anything that this
government does.
The bill itself, we have said time and
again, is something that this government must take a second look at and
reconsider before it goes too far. I
would have thought that the government, if they were concerned specifically
about Headingley, would have brought in a bill that was more restrictive, that
addressed in particular what they were concerned about regarding Headingley and
not been so broad in its approach as this one is.
I would hate to impute motives here,
although I am sure I have in the past at various times, at least others have
seen that across the way, but I would not want to suggest that somehow the
government has ulterior motives here or other plans in mind.
I would think that if it is honest and
true to what it says it is bringing the bill in for, if it is bringing in the
bill to deal with the Headingley situation, then we think it should be amended,
we think that it should be dealt with in a more particular way to the
Headingley situation and with that in mind, our critic has prepared amendments
that we would be certainly prepared to propose, I believe, at the time when the
amendments will be dealt with at the committee.
We have some time to go on Bill 45 before
we get to that committee stage. We have
a large number of speakers that have yet to speak on this important bill, and
we intend to make our views known again and again until this government‑‑because,
you know, having had some experience with governments over the years, I know
that oftentimes they will compromise, they will change their mind. When they are hammered over the head a few
times, they begin sometimes to see the light and to recognize that in fact
there may be elements to an action that they wish to take that may not in fact
be in their interests either. That is
what we are hoping to get them to understand before they get too far down the
road.
I must say that sometimes a good
opposition strategy would be to let the government bring in its bills, let it
bring in its bills, let it do whatever it pleases knowing full well that it is
going to get into trouble as a result of it and that it will pay dearly for
those mistakes. So it is the role, Madam
Deputy Speaker, of the opposition to point out to the government where it
thinks there are mistakes being made so that government will correct its ways
and not make those errors. That
fundamentally is a role of an opposition party, and that is what we are trying
to do.
We should, from a political point of view,
simply let them do what they want and give them enough rope and they will hang
themselves a lot sooner. I know that is
in the cards. That is something that
will be done. This government is on its
last legs. It will be gone from the
Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that my
time is up, my little light is flashing here.
I will continue my comments on third reading on this bill, and I am sure
the members will be equally as attentive then as they are right now.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Gregory Dewar
(Selkirk): Madam Deputy Speaker, the member for Elmwood
(Mr. Maloway) presents me with a very daunting task, which of course is to live
up to his fine speech he just presented to the House here this afternoon.
I am pleased to be able to rise today to
speak on Bill 45, The City of Winnipeg Amendment, Municipal Amendment and
Consequential Amendments Act. The bill
comes forward to this Chamber, to this House, for debate today as a result of
events in the Headingley area culminating in a referendum held in Headingley
last November 14. Residents in the
Headingley area were asked: Do you want
the area described above as Headingley to form a separate rural
municipality? Approximately 83 percent
of the eligible voters in Headingley cast their ballots, and 86.7 percent of
those voters supported the creation of the Rural Municipality of
Headingley. The vote of course was very
decisive.
What about using a referendum to determine
these types of issues? The Minister of
Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) was at the meeting on election night, referendum
night, and he was applauding the vote‑‑
Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows):
He was the cheerleader I think.
Mr. Dewar: As the member for Burrows says, he was a
cheerleader, and he actually permitted a referendum to happen, to occur, before
there was even a provision in the act allowing this, like the cart before the horse
sort of a strategy‑‑
Mr. Maloway: He wants to become a rural MLA.
Mr. Dewar: For some reason, yes, I guess he wants to
become a rural MLA, as the member for Elmwood states. Maybe he wants to become the Minister of
Rural Development, or the Minister of Agriculture perhaps, Minister of Natural
Resources. We may need a new Minister of
Natural Resources. Last summer he jumped
in the
They had a referendum, and now they are
bringing forward a bill to this House requesting permission to allow it to
happen, after the fact of course. While
the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) is comfortable using referendums to
break up the city of
I have a quote here he made to the media
dealing with a resolution passed by the Morris constituency dealing with I
guess the national referendum. He
states: Well, we do not believe that referendums
are a way to solve the political challenges that we have to make as a
government. We have to take into account
both sides of every issue, and we have to make decisions that elected officials
have to make. We were elected to make
decisions. We, the people of the
Conservative Party, were elected to make decisions, and we will make those
decisions, and that is why we will support the referendum proposed by the
member from Morris constituency of the Conservative Party.
As the Premier (Mr. Filmon) stated, we
were elected to make decisions‑‑[interjection]
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please.
Mr. Dewar: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. While, Bill 45‑‑[interjection] It is a quote. You would not want me to just misquote your
Leader now, would you? I am certain you
would like his words to be placed.
An Honourable Member: Who said this now?
Mr. Dewar: The Premier in direct contradiction to the
Minister of Urban Affairs. The members opposite
are concerned that I misquote the Premier; certainly that is why I read it so I
would not.
While Bill 45 is a very broad‑ranging
bill, referendum bill in fact, it allows the cabinet, or gives the cabinet the
right to allow other areas of the city of
If this bill is passed, it would give the
minister the power to adjust
*
(1630)
So a Lieutenant‑Governor‑in‑Council
may refer the matter to the Municipal Board for consideration. It gives the minister very, very strong
powers.
"Referendum of electors. The minister may submit the question as to
whether the inhabitants of the locality of the city should be incorporated as a
town, village or rural municipality or as to whether a part of the city should
be transferred to an adjoining municipality to a referendum of the electors of
the locality or part of the city."
The minister can determine who will vote and who cannot.
Again in the next "Procedure for
referendum. The minister may make such
determinations and do such things as he or she considers necessary to submit
the question referred to . . . to a referendum, including, without limiting the
generality of the foregoing, determining who is qualified to be an
elector;" The minister makes a
decision about who gets to vote‑‑
Point of
Order
Mr. Marcel Laurendeau
(St. Norbert): Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, I
do believe that we are not supposed to refer directly to any clauses within a
certain bill.
Madam Deputy Speaker: It indeed is a point of order. It should not be making explicit reference to
a specific section.
* * *
Mr. Dewar: I would like to thank the member for St.
Norbert for bringing that to my attention.
As I said, the minister can determine who will vote and he can determine
who cannot vote. It is really just too
much power vested in one member of the cabinet.
Last year we had the Minister of Natural
Resources (Mr. Enns) involved in a bit of a power grab when he‑‑I
guess it was one of the Natural Resources bills that deals with Ducks
Unlimited. I believe the member for
Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) quite accurately called him King Harry. Well, now if this bill passes, we will have
King James as well, and so we have King Harry and King James. We have quite a little royal family of the
members opposite. The minister must take
this bill back, and he must withdraw it and have his officials rewrite it.
It was obviously drawn up in haste, and I
believe all members on this side of the House have being asking for the
minister to withdraw this and bring in legislation dealing specifically with
the Headingley situation. That is why it
must be withdrawn‑‑not a bill which will allow other areas of the
city of
One of the reasons Unicity was set up was
the more affluent, wealthier areas of the city of Winnipeg would help support
the more economically depressed areas, basically the downtown areas, the core
area, other areas of the city which are economically depressed. The principle would be a more equitable distribution
of the wealth, and of course the members opposite disagree philosophically with
that notion.
I know my colleagues who represent these
areas, the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) perhaps, the member for Point
Douglas (Mr. Hickes) and Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), Wellington (Ms. Barrett), St.
Johns (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis), would agree, because they have stood up in
the House many times and they spoke about the unique and serious problems
facing these areas, businesses closing, houses abandoned and decaying, violence
and other social problems associated with urban neglect, drug abuse and
prostitution, again the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) raised some
issues today about drug abuse within his constituency. I raised the question with the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) about the antisniff legislation, which we feel would, of
course, addresses some of these very serious problems.
Another problem with this bill is, if the
minister writes the questions for any future referendum, the minister can put
forward a question such as: Should Tuxedo
be allowed to separate and take with it its high property tax base? Who would have to bear the brunt of Tuxedo,
Charleswood or the more affluent areas of the city leaving? Of course, it would be the rest of the city
of
What about the effects on services
provided by the City of
What he is doing of course is, he is
patting himself on the back for the number of individuals who are on social
assistance. He is proud of the fact that they have more people on social
assistance. It is terrible. In my particular constituency they are
closing a training plant which deals specifically with this issue of
individuals on social assistance.
We have libraries and the general
maintenance of the city. We know that would happen because of the unique
climate that we face here in
Where would the commitment be to the
cleaning up of the Red, for instance, very important to the residents of
Selkirk. Huge costs are necessary to
upgrade the sewers in the city so that the raw sewage will not be dumped into
the Red, which flows past Selkirk, and Selkirk residents, as everyone knows,
are forced to drink the water extracted from the Red.
Last summer one of the wells broke down
and the town was forced to extract water from the Red. Thirty‑five percent of our water came
from the Red. It was treated and was
declared safe but unfortunately this does not convince Selkirk residents. One of the programs of course is that they
could disinfect‑‑where would their commitment be to replacing the
sewers? Where would their commitment be
to the disinfection program? It is
estimated now at about $8 million plus annual operating costs would help turn
around the sad state of the Red as we find it now as it flows through Winnipeg
and travels on through smaller communities.
It is not only affecting Selkirk, by the way, it is affecting several
members opposite's constituencies‑‑Springfield, Lac du Bonnet,
Gimli.
(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)
It is an issue that always is very
important to members from Selkirk, of course, because we as a community are
forced to drink water extracted from it.
As the river flows through Selkirk, bacterial counts are often 10 times above
the provincial water quality objectives which marked the accepted levels in
which activities such as water skiing or swimming can take place without
potential health hazards.
When the Minister of Natural Resources
(Mr. Enns) jumped in the
An Honourable Member: He swallowed some water . . . .
Mr. Dewar: They say even touching the water is
dangerous. Where would the city's
commitment be to cleaning up the
*
(1640)
Disinfecting the sewage discharge reduced
almost a dozen cases of gastrointestinal illnesses every year among water
skiers and swimmers from
Of course, the main issue here is the complete
infrastructure of repairs, upgrading of the city of
As I said, if the city's tax base is
eroded, there will be no money, no commitment to deal with the serious issues
affecting Selkirk. So it is not only the
city of
If this bill is passed, it could
negatively affect the chances of Red River cleanup, because any action towards
cleanup will require financial commitments from the City of Winnipeg, a
financial commitment that would be seriously eroded if this bill is passed and
other areas of the city, if affluent areas of the city of Winnipeg are allowed
to leave, such as Tuxedo, Charleswood, St. Norbert, St. Germain, Transcona‑‑this
is one of the points that I wanted to talk about this bill, how it would
negatively affect my personal constituency.
Another problem of this bill is it does not deal with the issue or the
plan of urban sprawl outside the city of
Last night I attended a meeting in
There were a number of concerns raised by
individuals there because the highway would have to be expanded and
upgraded. They are going to put a
divider down the road to make it safer, and there was no plan. If anybody was to drive between the Perimeter
and Selkirk, you would see basically one continuous urban setting with no
allotment made to expand laterally on the No. 9 Highway.
Now when they have to do it, the road is
both unsafe and is in disrepair. They
find themselves meeting a bit of opposition from those individuals who moved
out there to move away from what they consider to be the high tax base of the
city and decide to move into the fine
But now, as many individuals reported last
night, they are upset about frontage being taken away. They are upset about the proposed plan and
how it is going to affect their families. Instead of making the issue before,
now we find people actually are fronting right on the highway. They are going to lose their homes because
the government will have to expropriate the land, because they cannot come to
an agreement between the individuals affecting this particular area.
That happened just last night, and there
was no plan, it causes problems to individuals living adjacent to this
particular highway expansion.
Individuals moved into
One ward of St. Andrews which is in the
southern part of the whole municipality of St. Andrews‑‑the
municipality of St. Andrews covers the area from approximately Winnipeg Beach
right down to the Perimeter Highway, or just north of the Perimeter Highway
actually.
One ward, which is the ward of St.
Andrews, I was talking with the reeve of
It demonstrates the recent urban sprawl in
the areas that are adjacent to the city of
Now they did away with that recently, an
inequitable kind of a situation, and I guess that may be the reason why MTS
profits were down so much in the last quarter of last year. Anyways, it was long distance, even though it
was adjacent to the city, part of Unicity.
I had a similar situation in my
constituency where
People seemed to work under the assumption
that the Perimeter is the boundary of the city of
Anyways, the residents of Headingley held
a referendum, and they voted. They voted
in a democratically sanctioned election to leave the city and to form their own
rural municipality. Now, of course, the
government must act on the result. As
the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) was stating, maybe we should grant them
special status or something to get them to come back, but it is a little too
late now. It is a bit too late now,
unfortunately. No one can ignore what has happened in the Headingley situation.
We cannot say, gee, you know, we just wanted to find out what you guys thought
about this issue. We just wanted to test
the proverbial waters. But, unfortunately,
no, you cannot.
Now they had the referendum; they had the
vote. As I said, 86.7 percent of them
voted in favour of forming their own municipality, so now the minister must
react.
It was the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.
Ernst) who was there applauding what Headingley did. So what does he do? He has to make a reaction; he has to do
something. So he brings in Bill 45,
which is meant to solve the problems, but, unfortunately, as we stated, it is
going to cause many, many more. We
accept, we accept the wishes of Headingley residents. You cannot turn back the
pages of history.
In this state, there is no going back, but
even though we accept Headingley's right to self‑determination, we do not
accept the government's response to it.
We feel that all boundary changes must come to the Legislature.
It is just far too important to have its
future decided by one member of the cabinet, and this bill would allow just
that. This bill gives the minister the power to determine the final decision of
the assets of breakaway rural municipalities.
He decides who gets what. I would
just like to‑‑as the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) is saying, he
is like a marriage counsellor deciding you get this section and you get this
over here, this goes to this person and that one goes to that individual. So do they want to place themselves in that
position? Well, obviously, they appear
that they want to.
*
(1650)
The minister appoints the Municipal Board which
makes the recommendation back to the minister.
So, in effect, he makes the decision of what are the assets of the
breakaway R.M.s. We see the problem now
where the Rural Municipality of Headingley wants certain assets and the City of
Consequently, he has the power to
determine the division of the assets.
There must be a settlement, we feel, that is negotiated, and that
assessment must be more independent. If
the minister wanted to deal with Headingley, he would be dealing with a very
narrow issue. But we are not. We are dealing instead with a very broad set
of powers which is taken from the Legislature, from this House, and given to
the cabinet, to the minister himself.
The Cherniack report dealt with this
issue, and I would like to review some of the recommendations and issues raised
by this report. One of the
recommendations is No. 41, Adjustments to the Boundaries of the City: "The Review Committee recommends that
the Act establish principles or guidelines to be used in making boundary
adjustments between the City and adjacent rural municipalities. This section should specifically oblige the Province
to make boundary adjustments as required to ensure future maintenance of an
urban development standard within the City's boundaries and a rural standard
and lifestyle outside the City's boundaries.
"The Committee suggests the following
general guidelines:
"1. Lands relatively contiguous to
the City's boundaries that an elected Council or a rural municipality has
designated for development or approved for development to a suburban standard,
typical of suburbs within the city, should be incorporated within the city's
boundaries.
"2. Lands that rural municipalities
designate and/or approve for development for rural residential purposes (below
the standards typically found in the City's suburbs), agricultural use or other
'rural' purposes, outside of their established towns . . . should be retained
within their jurisdiction.
"3. Where the City declares its long‑term
intention not to use lands within the City's boundaries for development to a
typical . . . suburban standard, or for other uses and purposes important to
the city, those lands should be considered for exclusion from the City's
jurisdiction."
They go on to specifically recommend
modifications to deal with, say, here is the Headingley area:
"The Committee is not in a position
to provide a specific description of the western boundary at this time. One idea which has received considerable
support during the consultation process is that the City's western boundary
should be drawn in to remove the Headingley area from the City of
So they made some recommendations back in
'86.
"During this period, a Basic Planning
Statement or Development Plan should be prepared for the area. One of the main objectives of this plan
should be to establish policies . . . to safeguard Headingley's future as a
predominantly rural environment adjacent to the City. Headingley's residents must be given the
opportunity to participate fully in this process and in the decisions that may
be taken as a result."
Well, obviously, their participation in
the process was to hold a referendum to leave Unicity, forcing, of course, we
unfortunately feel, the potential for the ending of Unicity. The R.M. of
"While no significant change in this
boundary is suggested at the present time, serious consideration should be
given to moving the boundary east of
"In addition, a relatively minor
'housekeeping' boundary change should also be considered. This involves the only parcel of land within
the City boundaries north of the
Further discussion on this particular
issue:
"The City has stated its clear
intention not to provide, for the foreseeable future, water and sewer services
beyond the
"Some residents of the area, for
their part, claim to pay city‑level realty taxes without getting adequate
city‑level services, such as roads, transit, and protection. The Committee has not had the opportunity to
determine the validity of these allegations."
As I was stating earlier, that is, of
course, the crux of the whole argument, that these areas felt they were not
getting the services. Although they were
paying city taxes, they were not going to be getting city services. So, say, take an area like
It is unfortunate now that the residents
in Stony Mountain, the residents in West St. Paul, the residents perhaps in the
R.M. of Headingley may be faced with this problem of having to provide water
that is going to be piped in, and at a huge, huge cost to the residents, or I
suppose the government will be responsible along with maybe the culprit in this
particular situation to come up with the funds to pay for such a huge
undertaking.
Anyway, as I was stating‑‑I
will continue back with the report here:
"As the Committee did not have the opportunity to hear from many of
the residents of the Headingley area, we urge their involvement in discussions
about the area's future."
Well, I guess the question is, what
exactly was their involvement in these discussions? The answer, of course, to that was their own
determination to have a referendum. I
suppose we have to accept the results.
Obviously, we cannot go back.
Again, I will quote from the Cherniack
report. "From our perspective,
however, we perceive the area as a predominantly rural area without the status
of a rural municipality. It would appear
beneficial, therefore, to permit the area to pursue its rural and agricultural
future as either a separate municipality or as part of an existing rural
municipality. As an important asset in
the
"We consider the area north of the
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House,
the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) will have 5 minutes
remaining. As previously agreed, this
matter will also remain standing in the name of the honourable member for
Wolseley (Ms. Friesen).
The hour being 5 p.m., it is time for
private member's hour.
*
(1700)
PRIVATE
MEMBERS' BUSINESS
ORDERS FOR
RETURN, ADDRESSES FOR PAPERS REFERRED FOR DEBATE
Mr. Speaker: On the motion by the honourable member for
Mr. Gerry McAlpine
(Sturgeon Creek): I am pleased to continue speaking on this
bill. I was speaking in regard to the
City of
In addition to this, Mr. Speaker, the
I think that we have to really look
closely at this. I think it has been
mentioned before by other members and especially by our Attorney General (Mr.
McCrae) when he raised the issue when this bill was brought forward that
certainly he was supportive of the intent of the bill but that we were going to
have to look very seriously at how it was going to be able to be implemented.
I think that is a message that we should
take very seriously. I think that the
opposition, the members across, have failed to do that in looking at this. They are not looking at it holistically. There is something they feel that can be
brought forward by legislation, that just because legislation is there, people
are going to look and follow whatever the government decides they are going to
do.
I think we have to examine why these
people are there. The member for
Concordia (Mr. Doer) speaks from his seat that we voted for it. I was elected to this Legislature in 1990,
and certainly I did not have anything to do with that, and I can see why the
opposition can stand there and say that the government of the day voted for it.
I do not know what the circumstances were
at that particular time, but I would not have voted for this. It is not a strong bill, it is not an
effective bill, and it is not going to do what it is supposed to do.
The intent is good. We have a problem in society today, but it is
not going to be dealt with through legislation that is brought through this
bill.
I think we have to examine‑‑you
know, like, why are people in this state?
Why do people sniff? Why do they
get to this? As far as I am concerned,
and the experience we have seen in travelling this province and talking to
people who have had direct contact with these people, it is not just a matter
of legislating against these people.
What are they going to do as far as the
limiting of the sale of gasoline, as an example, or the limiting of the sale of
nail polish or hair sprays? The people,
if they are going to sniff, it does not matter.
They are going to continue to do it regardless of what legislation you
bring in.
I think that government has to look at
this in a holistic way and one that is going to be effective, not one that is
going to approach this issue with a band‑aid approach and to say that we
are trying to do something.
Frankly, this is what this bill is
doing. As a matter of fact, I mentioned
this to the member for
If we are going to have to remove solvents
and sniff products from shelves, I do not understand how anybody in their right
mind could expect that this could be done, in terms of Canadian Tire stores or
drug stores or even in markets, Safeways and places like that. These young people, if they have to have it,
they are going to be using sniff as a means of dealing with problems. There is
no way that legislation that is imposed on them is going to achieve that goal
and to solve the issue. We have to deal
with this in a holistic way and deal with the problem, address the problem, not
trying to bring legislation that is going to offer some benefit through that
legislation.
I think it is important that we understand
why these people are there. They are
having difficulty. They have gone into
their state of avoidance. A state of
avoidance is one where they have not met their challenges. I think that until such time as this is
exercised, and given the opportunity to deal with their challenges and to
create growth among these people and be satisfied and content, this is an
opportunity that we should be looking at, not passing legislation that is going
to incur great cost to the taxpayer, great burdens on the police departments or
the health departments that are going to have to implement this.
I think the interest on this side of the
House is to find a way to stop the abuse.
I think that is first and foremost, instead of looking at the
legislation. The questions that should
be carried out by the public health inspector or peace officer are
onerous. The duty and responsibility
that is imposed on merchants that will have to take the responsibility for a
person who gives or sells or delivers possession to a person under 18, shall
keep a written consent for a period of up to six months and to make this
available for inspection by a public health inspector. This does not make a lot of sense.
It is understandable that these people
across the way there, they do not understand business. The responsibility that they want to put on
small business today is unbelievable.
They do not understand that these small businesses, not only do they
provide a good environment for people to work, they do provide jobs, and that
is what makes this economy roll. That is
a lot to do with what we have in terms of our recession today.
Their concerns that the term
"intoxicating substances" may not be adequately defined, and the term
"offer to sell" is unclear.
Will this legislation effectively deter people determined to obtain the
substances listed? I really do not think
so. There is a long list of items that
are included, and what people are doing as far as sniffing is concerned is that
if they cannot get these they are going to go to something else.
The bill is not clear if automobile
gasoline should be considered as a substance, and that is what young people are
using for sniffing. Now how are you
going to limit people from sniffing gas, gasoline or something of that nature? That is what they are using. Does that mean that a person would have to
have consent from a parent if they are 16 years of age or under the age of 18
years to go and buy some gas for their car?
They are licensed to drive a car but yet they are not allowed to buy gas
according to this bill. This does not
make a lot of sense.
There are questions about most teenagers
using cosmetics. When they go into drugstores or supermarkets to buy cosmetics,
hairspray, or nail polish remover, removal of these substances from the shelves
would be difficult to control. They are
putting the onus, through this bill, and the responsibility on the
merchant. The bill would be difficult to
enforce as it would apply to almost all stores:
corner stores, small grocery stores, including lumber yards, building
supply stores, stores even selling camping equipment. Therefore even paints, solvents and gases, et
cetera, would have to be removed behind the counter.
An Honourable Member: Merchants are going to have to have very big
basements.
*
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Mr. McAlpine: Well, I think either that or they are going to
have lots of people there to police the store so that these young people are
not going to have access to it. The
point is, that if they limit and remove these things from the shelves, they are
going to use something else. I think
that we have to look at it holistically so that people can deal with their
problems in a holistic way, rather than just removing and trying to deal with
this through legislation.
Immediate proclamation of the bill would
only result in the same scenario as
Mr. Speaker, I think that we have to look
at addressing this issue. Everybody on
this side of the House really is concerned with the welfare of these people,
people who have lost their way for whatever reason. I think it is a serious enough issue that it
warrants a lot of consideration, but it is going to take a lot more
consideration than this bill is offering.
So with those remarks, Mr. Speaker, I
speak very strongly against the bill and would ask that we not consider passing
it.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of
the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak on the
resolution before us today dealing with a copy of the formal opinion requested
from the Department of Justice by the Health department.
I cannot believe, first of all, that we
even have to put this resolution on the floor.
Secondly, I cannot believe the speeches that have been written for
members of the Conservative Party that were just provided in this House. We heard the member opposite, who was not
here prior to 1990, who said that and stated that. We heard him say that we do
not need the legislation. Yet his
members of his cabinet sitting in front of him‑‑there are members
sitting right in front of us right now who were at the committee and voted for
the bill. The Minister of Health (Mr.
Orchard), the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Driedger) voted for the bill and
were at committee.
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): No, you are wrong. I did not vote for the bill.
Mr. Doer: Well, he doth protesteth too much. The Minister of Health did not want the bill
to be passed, is that what he said?
Point of
Order
Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, at the time
this legislation was voted on I was at home recuperating from my accident. I want the record to show that the member for
Concordia (Mr. Doer) did not put accurate information on the record‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Health did not
have a point of order. It is clearly a
dispute over the facts.
* * *
Mr. Doer: I will withdraw the comment about the member
voting for the bill, but I know that the Minister of Health will not allow any
bill to pass, a Health bill to pass, without his approval. We certainly saw that last year in dealing
with other bills, the
Mr. Speaker, if the minister has me on a
technicality, I apologize, but he knows that the government of the day, in
which he is a cabinet member, supported this bill on second reading. He knows
the government of the day, at the committee stage, moved amendments that they
thought would improve the bill. He knows
the government of the day heard the presentations at second reading, because I
was there along with members opposite.
He knows the government of the day voted for the bill at second reading,
at committee stage. He knows the
government of the day, the majority of whom are still in the Chamber today,
voted for the bill at third reading, hence the major contradiction between the
member who just spoke and the facts in terms of the substance abuse bill that
was passed by this House, in fact unanimously by this House, prior to the 1990
election.
I was not aware that the minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) was in conflict with his cabinet colleagues and his caucus
colleagues. I cannot tell when the
Minister of Health is in conflict with his cabinet colleagues and his caucus
colleagues. We do not know when the Minister of Health is acting as an
individual separate agent and when he is acting as a minister of the Crown, but
we do know that the government of the day did support this bill.
I know the Minister of Highways and
Transportation (Mr. Driedger) was at that committee, because I remember him
debating along with us other private members' bills including the bill dealing
with the handicapped parking. I know the
Minister of Transportation was there and was debating quite eloquently his
concerns at that committee. I will pull
out the voting and procedures in terms of other members, but it is obvious that
the Minister of Health was part of a government that did support this bill.
So if the arguments being made by the
member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) were correct, obviously the government
two years ago would not have voted for the bill or supported the bill. If the arguments he is making about the
requirement that substance abuse does not require legislation, then the
government would have made that point at the committee or at second reading, or
in fact they would do as they did with many private members' bills, they would
not even let it see the light of day at second reading. They would have filibustered it and
filibustered it and filibustered it.
They did see the importance of this bill; they did see the need for this
bill; and they did support this bill with amendments at committee.
An Honourable Member: It was his presence that enlightened us.
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the members opposite
in terms of enlightening us‑‑I recall being before the committee as
a member of this Legislature listening to the public presentations on the sniff
bill, and I remember the city of Winnipeg police members coming before that
committee and urging members of this Legislature to pass this bill. I remember street workers that are working
with substance abuse coming before this committee and urging us to pass this
bill. I remember social workers that
worked with kids on the streets asking us to pass this bill.
Mr. Speaker, no one ever pretended at the
committee stage that this bill would be the easiest bill to implement, but we
all agreed, all three parties and all members of society who came before the
Legislature, we all agreed collectively that we collectively had to do
something about this and this bill represented and this legislation represented
a few more tools in the hands of street workers and social workers and police
officers in dealing with substance abuse.
It is not the solution to substance
abuse. It will not stop all the
substance abuse and particularly the reasons for substance abuse, but it will
give those people on the streets, our police officers, our street workers and
some people, it will give them more tools to go after the abuses of substance
abuse and to go after and patrol with some enforcement some of the people in
the retail sector who are abusing their retail privileges and abusing our
children and our most vulnerable who are unfortunately victims of substance
abuse. That is all we are asking for,
Mr. Speaker.
We are asking, if the government has a
legal opinion to back up what the member just said, then why is the government
afraid to make public the formal opinion required by the Minister of Justice
(Mr. McCrae) and by the Health Department?
What is the cover‑up? If
the legal opinion verifies the position taken by the Minister of Health and the
Minister of Justice and the member who just spoke and the substance abuse
committee that had public hearings, if it backs up their position, then they
have nothing to fear by making it public.
But, if the legal opinion does not back up their position, then they
should be proclaiming the bill. That is
all the member for
Surely, if we have police officers and
other street workers saying that they need this bill, it will help them,
surely, if it will help them‑‑
Mr. Speaker: Order, please.
*
(1720)
Point of
Order
Mr. McAlpine: The honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer)
speaks about the police department, and their coming before this
committee. That is not a fact, and I
wish he would get his facts straight.
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point
of order. That is clearly a dispute over
the facts.
* * *
Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, continuing on, on the
speech. Now we know why we are having so
much difficulty from members across the way.
The Minister of Health will not even tell his own caucus what happened
at the committee. The Minister of Health
will not even tell his own caucus that‑‑[interjection] There is a thing called Hansard.
Mr. Speaker, the Minster of Justice who
was at the committee will not tell his members opposite. The Minister of Justice who was at committee,
because I have his amendments, will not even tell his members up behind him
that the police officers supported this bill at committee. I would refer the member opposite to the
Hansard.
There is one great thing about
Hansard. It records what people actually
said at those public hearings, and it will record for the record that the
police officers did present a presentation on March 13, 1990, and supported the
bill and stated very clearly, and the person's name was Sergeant Caron.
Well, they make light of this, but it is a
very serious issue. Besides the debating
points back and forth, I remember being at that committee, and every member of
the public said this will not solve all of the problems, but it will give us
greater tools to deal with people that are abusing the people that are abusing
solvent. It will help the police go in
and do some enforcement with retail merchants who were unscrupulously selling
this material to kids who are most vulnerable.
Now, what is wrong that? Where is your legal opinion? That is all we are asking for in this
resolution.
I would also point out that the Minister
of Justice has said time and time again in this House that this is a badly
drafted bill. Well, he voted for
it. In fact, he even moved some
amendments to improve the bill, total contradictions. He did not vote against the bill, he moved
three amendments at committee, after the presentations from police officers and
other social workers. He moved three
amendments to the bill, and then he spoke in favor of the bill, and then he was
the government's side in dealing with the presentations of the bill.
He moved three amendments at
committee. After the presentations from
police officers and other social workers, he moved three amendments to the
bill. Then he spoke in favour of the
bill, and then he was the government's side in dealing with the presentations
of the bill. He moved three amendments
on evidence and substance. He moved an
amendment on dealing with another section of the bill. Mr. Speaker, that shows the nature of
evidence on the substance were all moved by the Minister of Justice (Mr.
McCrae) upon the review of the government.
We have a really difficult situation. We have a bill that was passed by all parties
and supported by all the line workers in the inner city and other areas of the
province dealing with substance abuse.
We are then told we have to get greater work on the drafting of the
regulations. Fine. We are then told by the government that they
have a legal opinion in terms of proclaiming the bill, and then we are told
that the bill was badly drafted. Now we are told by the member‑‑it
is sort of evolving‑‑the bill was not necessary to begin with.
Let us go back over the statements made by
the government. If the government says that they have a legal opinion that
supports the position that the Department of Health cannot proclaim this bill,
why can the government not produce the legal opinion? This resolution, which really is a resolution
for the rights of all members, all private members, because this was a private
member bill, basically calls to task the government for producing the legal
opinion that they say they have as the justification to say no to the police
officers, no to the social workers, no to the street workers, and no to those
families that are trying to deal with substance abuse.
Why is the government afraid to table the
legal opinion? Why are the Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) and the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) afraid to provide
the justification to deny a private member's bill from being proclaimed that
was passed by this Chamber? Why will
they not produce it? Because this is
what we are debating here today. We are
not even debating the point that the member made. We are not even debating the point about
whether we should have had the act or not.
We do have the act. It is not
proclaimed. We are debating today
whether the legal opinion put forward by the Department of Justice to the
Health department, whether it should be made public to all private members.
I suggest to members opposite that you
will be moving private members' bills as part of a government caucus, perhaps
in this session. Perhaps in a future
session you will be moving private members' bills as a member of an opposition
party, and I know that you hope not.
Some day you may in fact find yourself moving resolutions as private
members. You may do a lot of work. You may meet with a lot of people. You may get a lot of good advice. You may have the government of the day
improving the bill, but with amendments, and then you get a consensus in the
Legislature to pass the bill, and sometime later the government says to you,
oh, we cannot do that, we have a legal opinion.
We have a legal opinion that says we cannot do it. You know, we do not care. Go away, old private member; you do not mean
anything to us.
Mr. Speaker, for the sake of all members
in this Chamber, this resolution before us on a very important issue of
substance abuse, all we are asking for is a legal opinion. Why‑‑[interjection] Well, you know, the
Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness)‑‑I hope in his constituency‑‑I
hope the Minister of Finance has no substance abuse that he is worried about in
his riding. I hope he is correct, but
you know, some of us have.
I worked as a volunteer in the Main Street
Project years ago, and it is a very serious problem. The police are saying to us, okay, we all
agree it is a serious problem. We all
agree that the people working on the streets that are the most directly
impacted by this issue need more tools to deal with. They said that they needed this legislation. [interjection] Education is another
issue, no question about that. It is not
an either/or issue. It is a question of
all of us working together.
So what we are asking for today is a legal
opinion, and what we want is the co‑operation that we had together to
pass this bill, to proclaim this bill on behalf of the people who are most
vulnerable and most victimized by solvent abuse in our society. That is all we
are asking for today. Thank you very much.
Hon. Darren Praznik
(Minister of Labour): I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural
Resources (Mr. Enns), that debate be adjourned.
Motion agreed to.
SPEAKER'S
RULING
Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House.
On February 26, 1992, during private
members' hour the acting government House leader, the honourable Minister of
Labour (Mr. Praznik) raised a point of order regarding private members'
Resolution 4, Reproductive Health. In
his submission, the acting government House leader argued that the provision of
the law referred to in the resolution was currently being challenged in the
court system in
The sub judice convention‑‑not
discussing in the Legislature matters which are before the courts‑‑is
a voluntary restraint to protect the rights of interested parties before the
courts and to maintain the separation and mutual respect between the
Legislature and the judiciary. It is not
a rule. Madam Speaker Sauve of the House
of Commons in a 1981 ruling noted that the purpose of the sub judice convention
is "to avoid any discussion in the House which might have a prejudicial
effect on an accused or on the parties to a civil action, since it might
influence a jury or witness when they read of it in the newspapers or see it on
television."
*
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In the above referenced ruling, Madam
Speaker Sauve also quoted the essence of the convention, as stated in 1844 by
Sir Robert Peel, and I quote: "that
the right of Parliament, as the highest court in this land to discuss what it
will cannot be limited, but that good taste and sense of fair play should in
some circumstances limit the exercise of that right."
In reviewing this matter, I have been
aware of how complex an issue it is because of the required balance between
freedom of speech in the Legislature and the need for a separate and impartial
judiciary. I have consulted the acting
law officer of the Legislative Assembly and her associates in reaching my
conclusions.
All Manitoba Speakers' ruling on the
application of the sub judice convention have been reviewed but were found to
be of limited value. The Manitoba Rule
and the references in Beauchesne and Erskin May, on which the first five of the
eight
There are four criteria which must apply
in order for the sub judice convention to apply:
1. Is the matter before the House, in the
case of civil matters, the same issue which is before the courts? In the case of criminal matters, is the
matter before the House the same issue which is to come before the court?
2. Beauchesne citation 507(1) states that
no consistent practice of application of the sub judice convention regarding
civil matters has been developed. If the
matter involves a criminal issue, the sub judice convention invariably applies.
3. Will a discussion of the matter by
legislators be harmful to individuals?
Citation 511, based on a ruling of Speaker Bosley, in 1986, states that
"The freedom of speech accorded to members . . . is a fundamental right
without which they would be hampered in the performance of their duties. The Speaker should interfere with that
freedom of speech only in exceptional cases, where it is clear that to do
otherwise could be harmful to a specific individuals."
4. Is the matter at the trial stage? Beauchesne citation 507(2) makes the point
that the sub judice convention does not apply to civil cases until the trial
stage is reached. Speaker Fraser in
December 1987 clearly states that "a civil action is not sub judice at
least until a trial starts." In a
criminal action the convention applies as soon as charges have been laid.
In the case of Private Members' Resolution
4, the issue to be heard by the court is a challenge under the Charter of
Rights to the validity of regulation 217/88 and to the authority of the
Turning to whether this issue meets the
criteria required for the sub judice convention to be invoked:
1. The issue appears to be peripheral to
and not the same issue which is to be heard by the courts. Speaker Fraser in 1987 ruled on this
particular point: " . . . questions
that are peripheral to the main issue being tested in the litigation are not
necessarily excluded under the sub judice rule.
It is important that all honourable members realize that, because
sometimes there is a tendency for members on one side to seize too quickly the
conclusion that just because a question may concern some actors who may be
involved in one way or another in a lawsuit that it is by its very definition
sub judice."
2. The case is a civil one, not a criminal
one; therefore, the convention may or may not apply.
3. I received no advice from members when
this matter was raised as a point of order in the House as to whether
discussion of the resolution in the House would be injurious to individuals
involved in the court case. I am of the
opinion that it would not.
4. I am advised that the challenge is
scheduled to be heard in the Court of Queen's Bench on April 21 and 22 of this
year. Therefore, in my opinion, the matter is not yet before the courts and is
not subject to the sub judice convention.
I would like to add that each case must be
judged on its own merits. Under a
different set of circumstances, the sub judice convention might apply to a
motion before the House. In this case, I
am ruling that it does not.
I am therefore ruling against a point of
order. The debate on private members'
Resolution 4 may proceed.
PROPOSED
RESOLUTIONS
Res. 4‑Reproductive
Health
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis
(
I am also reminded of our responsibility
to bring issues to this Chamber that are not often given much consideration
because they do not, or may not, reflect the realities or priorities of the
vast majority of elected members. It is
my view that it is our responsibility to bring issues from all groups in our
society, all walks of life, to treat them seriously, to bring them to this Chamber,
and at no time to dismiss those issues as matters of personal consideration as
opposed to important public political priority.
Mr. Speaker, the resolution before us
today is not limited to a particular individual or a particular facility
involved in a specific court case. It refers
to government policy affecting a broad matter, that of reproductive health
services in our community clinics, and as such it is a resolution that
addresses a government policy of far‑reaching, very significant
implications not just for women's health but also for the health care system
generally. It is a resolution that
addresses an issue often treated as invisible, yet very significant for over
half our population. It is about
democratic freedoms and individual rights and societal responsibilities, and it
is a resolution that attempts to uphold the most fundamental of freedoms, the
right of women to choose whether or not to have an abortion.
I know, Mr. Speaker, that the issue of
abortion is a difficult issue for some members in this Chamber who would prefer
to avoid debate, and it is a complex, emotional issue for everyone, especially
for women, for women who choose to have an abortion or who choose to consider
having an abortion. It is not for us to
judge women in that difficult decision‑making process, but to give
options, to provide access and to support choice. I know that there are some members on that
side of the House who support that fundamental principle, the right to choose.
We heard it very clearly from our Minister
of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. McIntosh) in our debate on the change of
name with respect to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women. She said quite clearly in the heat of debate
that she and members of her party, Conservative government, felt very strongly
and feel very strongly about choice.
Mr. Speaker, this resolution is about that
choice being taken away from women. It
is about the political decision of this government to limit insurance coverage
of abortion. It is about a government
that has a political agenda of restricting access to abortion by using economic
power to shut down community clinics. There are some things that as a society I
think we can be sure of in this day and age, that should no longer be points of
contention, should no longer be the basis for such actions as we have seen with
this government, when it chose by decree, by Order‑in‑Council to
restrict health care or medical care coverage of abortions provided in
community clinics.
Mr. Speaker, it is reprehensible in our
view to deny that choice. It is even
more reprehensible for any government, no matter what their feelings about
abortion and about the right of women to choose, to actually deny women the
right of coverage through our health care system the cost of pathology
resulting from abortions performed at a community clinic.
I want members to understand clearly what
this government has done dating back to 1988, when the present Minister of
Health (Mr. Orchard) brought forward that Order‑in‑Council as one
of his first actions as Minister of Health.
By that Order‑in‑Council this government refused to ensure
examination of fetal tissue.
*
(1740)
That examination is standard procedure for
all surgical procedures. It is through
this examination that surgeons are assured that they in fact removed what they
intended to remove, and it reviews details of any abnormalities. In the case of an abortion, a very dangerous
form of cancer, hydatidiform mole, where the pregnancy has turned into a
malignancy, may be detected through this examination.
Mr. Speaker, if members in this Chamber
will not move, in terms of understanding the need for women to have the right
to choose to have an abortion or not, in a community clinic or not, if they are
not moved by that fundamental principle of justice and fairness, then surely
they are moved by that fundamental issue of providing health care services for
women who need access to those services for their very survival, for their very
life on this planet.
Mr. Speaker, there are some issues, as I
said, that should not be part of this debate.
We should no longer be discussing whether or not it is medically
necessary to perform an abortion in hospitals as opposed to clinics. I hope that that is not behind this
resolution because, as members across the way should know, the present system
where women who do not have access to the full range of reproductive services
and are restricted in their choice of reproductive health services find
themselves turning to a couple of hospitals and find their lives at risk.
In fact, let it be known that 20 percent
of procedures at the Health Sciences Centre are done in the second
trimester. No one questions, I am sure,
that that poses more risk to women than if the abortion had been done in the
first trimester.
I hope by now we are at the stage of at
least recognizing that one does not need to be restricting abortions to
hospitals for budgetary reasons, because on every other issue the minister is
saying the opposite and suggesting that community clinics, community services,
can provide more effective, more efficient, more cost‑benefit services.
This court case, Mr. Speaker, that this
government is so concerned about and provided as the basis for their opposition
to this resolution going forward will, in fact, if it is allowed to go ahead,
and if this government does not see a way to change its mind, will possibly
mean a much more costly decision, much more costly charges to our health care
system than is presently the case. I do
not need to remind the minister about how it will open up the whole area of
paying for diagnostic treatments and tests in private community clinics.
Mr. Speaker, in the last few moments that
I have to speak on this very important matter, let me say that there are a
number of precedents, a number of laws, a number of established traditions in
this country that stand behind this resolution.
Our belief in medicare is founded on a
belief that all people should have access to necessary medical services. I hope there is not one in this room who will
question the need for women to have access to reproductive health services,
including abortion services for medically necessary reasons.
Let me remind members of this House our
attachment and our commitment to the principles established in the Canada
Health Act, and say behind this resolution is our belief that any denial of
comprehensive, accessible services is a contravention of the Canada Health Care
Act and, in fact, places this government in question in terms of breach of that
law.
Let us not forget the Charter of Rights
that we have all stood behind over the years that establishes the rights of
women, that establishes the rights of all people. A point that is well addressed in the
resolution, where it quotes from the Supreme Court ruling that we thought ended
once and for all this matter, where it said that forcing a woman by threat of
criminal sanction to carry a fetus to term is a profound interference with a
woman's body and thus an infringement on the security of person.
Let me say finally, Mr. Speaker, for the
benefit of my colleagues to the left of me in the House, the Liberal Party, who
have expressed opposition to reproductive health services at the Morgentaler
Clinic for several reasons that are also ill founded.
They have suggested that the College of
Physicians & Surgeons has not supported provision of services at the
Morgentaler Clinic, and they are wrong.
The College of Physicians & Surgeons has approved services at that
clinic. They have suggested that the
full range of counselling services are not available at the Morgentaler Clinic
and, by implication, any community clinic, and they are wrong, Mr.
Speaker. They will know, and anyone who
cares to visit that clinic will know, the full range of counselling services,
pre‑abortion counselling services, post‑abortion counselling
services, advice, health, economic supports, everything that a woman might
need.
The Liberals have said they are opposed to
this resolution because it is a private clinic.
Mr. Speaker, if we had a government committed to supporting the full
range of reproductive health services at our community clinics then we would
not be in this bind of questioning the rights of women to have access to
abortion services at community clinics.
*
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Let me close, Mr. Speaker, by saying that
I hope that this government will reconsider.
I hope it will do so from a cost point of view in terms of the possible
implications of this court case which is happening later this month. I hope that they will recognize the
fundamental rights of women to choose about their own bodies, about their own
reproductive health.
Hon. Donald Orchard
(Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, given that this issue is to be
heard in court later this month, no member on this side of the House will be
speaking to the resolution today.
Ms. Becky Barrett
(Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I am privileged to get up this
evening and speak in support of the resolution put forward by the member for
St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia‑Leis) supporting the reinstatement of access to
the full range of reproductive health services in a community clinic
setting. As the member has stated in her
remarks, the Supreme Court has ruled that a woman has the control over her
body, and the woman should have the choice in this very important matter.
Mr. Speaker, I think the concept of choice
is one of the most fundamental concepts that we as a society can deal with and
must deal with. It is also a word and a
concept that this government has on numerous occasions in this House brought
forward in support of the financial and program decisions that they have made
in their budgets and in their governing.
The government talks about the rights of
families to have choice as to the type of daycare that they use, the type of
daycare that they access, that there should be a full range of daycare service
provisions for families. In that
context, Mr. Speaker, the government has changed funding for daycares and has
broadened the access for that service to include not‑for‑profit
daycares, profit daycare centres, family daycare centres, a full range of
services in the daycare community in the interests of choice. The government talks about the need for the
agencies that this government funds to be responsible and to take responsibility
for their actions and to choose to use the funds that are allotted to them in
the most effective manner possible. So this government in many areas has said
that it is up to individuals, it is up to families, it is up to organizations,
it is up to the health care service delivery system. The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) talks a
great deal about the choices that boards of directors of hospitals must make in
determining how to use their funds, so the concept of choice is not a foreign
concept to this government.
I am just urging that this government
carry that concept of choice, that principle that individuals, families, groups
and organizations have choices and are responsible in making those choices, and
that this government say that that principle of choice extends to the right of
women to choose to have a medical procedure performed in a community
clinic. Again, the minister in June of
1988, when he changed the provision of services in the area of reproductive
health care, when he took away a major component of choice from the women of
this province, stated that there should be support systems available to assist
women in making this important decision, they should be informed of all options
and resources available to them.
Mr. Speaker, community clinics provide
that full range of support. Community
clinics provide the full range of pre‑ and post‑abortion
counselling, financial services and every other range of health care service
that the minister could want. The
minister also stated that the health of the woman was paramount and that only
in the safety of a hospital environment could abortions be performed to ensure
the safety of women. It has been proven
time and time again that community clinics are at the very least as safe and in
many cases more safe than a hospital setting.
As the member for
Mr. Speaker, if this government is truly committed,
as it says, to the concept of choice, if it truly cares about the rights and
responsibilities of half of the population of this province, if it truly
believes, as it says, that individuals and families have the right and the
responsibility to make informed decisions, informed choices, then it is
incumbent on this government to follow and approve and respect the private
member's resolution as brought forward by the member for St. Johns to reinstate
insured services to community clinics so that all members of this province have
the complete and full access to services in a full range of health care
facilities. It is unconscionable in this
day and age that half of the members of any society do not have the same rights
and access to services that they are entitled to, and do not have that right to
a full range of services in a full range of service delivery system solely
because of their gender. It is
unbelievable that a government would openly and consciously make a decision
that disenfranchises in an incredibly important way the potential for half of
the population of this province to not be seen as fully a citizen, or as fully
independent, or as fully able to access services as the other half, solely
because of their gender.
Mr. Speaker, I would just close again by
urging this government to support this resolution, to rescind the ill‑thought‑out,
the ill‑conceived action on the part of the Minister of Health (Mr.
Orchard).
As the member for
Mr. Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again before the House,
the honourable member for
The hour being 6 p.m, this House now
adjourns and stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow (Thursday).